Discussion:
Assimilation of the Japanese in the 20th Century
(too old to reply)
Don Kirkman
2012-12-28 23:38:57 UTC
Permalink
This issue underlies much of the running discussions of Japanese
loyalty and other traits they were believed to have. In the 1960s I
researched this in California's culture. I had intended to stay out
of this round of discussions touching on the relocation, but now that
I'm here I will try to summarize my facts and my findings as soon as I
can work it into my schedule. I think it is an overlooked factor in
the entire history of Japanese immigration and assimilation in the
United States.
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
Don Phillipson
2012-12-29 15:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
This issue underlies much of the running discussions of Japanese
loyalty and other traits they were believed to have. . . . an overlooked
factor in
the entire history of Japanese immigration and assimilation in the
United States.
An interesting byproduct of the Canadian Royal Commission on
Bilingualism and Biculturalism (approx. 1964-68) was documentation
of the differences between Japanese-Canadian and Chinese-Canadian
communities (both at that period long settled in the country, for two or
three generations.)

Common wisdom of the period saw both communities as similar and
likely to respond similarly.to the RCBB's invitations. Its mandate was
mainly English-French relations within Canada, but "other ethnic
groups" were invited to say where they fitted in. This exposed major
differences, e.g. that Polish and Ukrainian Canadians were very
concerned being non-English and non-French should not categorize
them as "second-class citizens," German Canadians were medium
concerned, and Dutch Canadians not at all, i.e. they were benevolent
but indifferent to the whole B&B debate and negotiations.

The royal commissioners (who traveled the country for public
hearings in the 1960s and commissioned social research by 50+
academic teams) expected the "Orientals" to be much the same
as each other. What they found was that one community was
medium concerned (as much as the Germans) and the other wholly
unconcerned (like the Dutch.) I can no longer remember which
was which, i.e. whether it was Japanese-Canadian who produced
witness and documents while the Chinese Canadians ignored
the RCBB or vice versa (sorry about that.)

What was learned was that minority cultures are not necessarily
uniform in their responses to the majority. It was in 1966 a mistake
to expect "Orientals" to respond like other Orientals. There were
at that date only two or three well-established Oriental communities in
Canada (Japanese, Chinese and Indian/Sikh.) There now are at
least twice that many distinct communities (cf. also Korean,
Vietnamese and Pakistani/Moslem.) It would be unwise to
expect them to evolve similarly just because they are all minorities.
(But we have encountered this before: the Alberta oilfields now
employ plenty of people from Newfoundland and Texas, and no
one expects these communities to think alike just because both
are "incomers" to Alberta.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
The Horny Goat
2012-12-29 23:42:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:29:42 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
Post by Don Phillipson
What was learned was that minority cultures are not necessarily
uniform in their responses to the majority. It was in 1966 a mistake
to expect "Orientals" to respond like other Orientals. There were
at that date only two or three well-established Oriental communities in
Canada (Japanese, Chinese and Indian/Sikh.) There now are at
least twice that many distinct communities (cf. also Korean,
Vietnamese and Pakistani/Moslem.) It would be unwise to
expect them to evolve similarly just because they are all minorities.
(But we have encountered this before: the Alberta oilfields now
employ plenty of people from Newfoundland and Texas, and no
one expects these communities to think alike just because both
are "incomers" to Alberta.)
If you're going to include Indian/SIkh (which are two quite distinct
communities particularly when you include the Ugandan Indians or the
Ismailis) you've got to include the Iranian community as well.

In 2012 it's reasonable to break the Chinese community into Hong
Kong/Singaporeans, Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese (the latter two
being primarily Mandarin speaking but having little else in common).
Certainly some of the above groups are far more integrated than
others.

In 1966 it was fair to say that the Japanese and Chinese communities
(which in those days meant strictly from Cantonese areas - there was a
well-known case of the provincial Liberal party leader going to speak
to a Chinese group during an election and being understood by only
about 25% of them as he was the son of Christian missionaries in China
and Mandarin had been his first language...) in Canada were quite
distinct both in cultural and distribution - i.e. after WW2 the
Japanese made a point of integrating some even marrying non-Japanese
(for instance my math teacher TK Kariya who was the father of National
Hockey League star Paul Kariya and a one-time member of the national
rugby team - a real-life non-military Mr. Miyagi!) while the Chinese
remained in their communities which were then quite different in
Vancouver than the present day version.

And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is racist in
the first place...
Mario
2012-12-30 00:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is
racist in the first place...
With reference to American West Coast, East Asia is the West...
--
H
Duwop
2012-12-30 03:15:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is racist in
the first place...
No, not racist, just offensive in that they don't like being described
in the same way as carpets and prefer the straight forward "asian".
The Horny Goat
2012-12-30 21:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duwop
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is racist in
the first place...
No, not racist, just offensive in that they don't like being described
in the same way as carpets and prefer the straight forward "asian".
Then I suppose Iranians should be offended at Persian cats and
Mexicans at chihuahuas. And don't even get me going on Shiu Tzu's!

My main problem with 'asian' is it that Chinese, Japanese, Korean,
those of the Indian subcontinent (ethnically the Sikhs and Muslims are
no different than any other kind of Indian/Pakistani than Irish
Protestants and Catholics are from each other and the DNA tests prove
it), Tamil, Persian, Kazakh etc. etc. etc.

In other words, having used the term you haven't narrowed things down
that much. I'd rather use a narrower term and clearly communicate than
be vague and confuse folks.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2012-12-30 05:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is racist in
the first place...
At the time of WWII, "the Orient" would refer to anything "exotic" to
the British. Richard Haliburton's _The Orient_ described places from
Greece, through the middle east, and India, and into China and Japan.

Mike
Rich Rostrom
2012-12-30 19:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is racist in
the first place...
At the time of WWII, "the Orient" would refer to anything "exotic" to
the British. Richard Haliburton's _The Orient_ described places from
Greece, through the middle east, and India, and into China and Japan.
In the Sherlock Holmes story "The Adventure of
the Greek Interpreter", the eponymous Mr. Melas
earns his living by services to "wealthy Orientals"
visiting London.

The "Oriental Institute" in Chicago is a museum
of artifacts from ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.

Russia and the Balkans, and even Poland and Hungary,
a little bit, were viewed as having "Oriental"
qualities.

However, Africa, Latin America, and the Pacific
islands, though quite exotic, were not "Oriental".

("Pacific islands": Micronesia, New Guinea,
Melanesia, Polynesia.)
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Mario
2012-12-30 19:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is
racist in the first place...
At the time of WWII, "the Orient" would refer to anything
"exotic" to the British. Richard Haliburton's _The Orient_
described places from Greece, through the middle east, and
India, and into China and Japan.
In the Sherlock Holmes story "The Adventure of
the Greek Interpreter", the eponymous Mr. Melas
earns his living by services to "wealthy Orientals"
visiting London.
The "Oriental Institute" in Chicago is a museum
of artifacts from ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.
Russia and the Balkans, and even Poland and Hungary,
a little bit, were viewed as having "Oriental"
qualities.
However, Africa, Latin America, and the Pacific
islands, though quite exotic, were not "Oriental".
("Pacific islands": Micronesia, New Guinea,
Melanesia, Polynesia.)
The word "Middle" of "Middle East" is clearly an indication: mid
way between "Near East" and "Far East".
--
H
Michael Emrys
2012-12-30 23:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
The word "Middle" of "Middle East" is clearly an indication: mid
way between "Near East" and "Far East".
I'm not sure yet how close my own personal usage reflected what was
common usage in, say, the first half of the 20th. century, but I always
thought of the Near East as North Africa from Morocco to Egypt
inclusive; the Middle East extending from Palestine to Pakistan
inclusive; and the Far East as everything east of Pakistan including Japan.

Michael
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2012-12-30 19:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is racist in
the first place...
At the time of WWII, "the Orient" would refer to anything "exotic" to
the British. Richard Haliburton's _The Orient_ described places from
Greece, through the middle east, and India, and into China and Japan.
However, Africa, Latin America, and the Pacific
islands, though quite exotic, were not "Oriental".
To my surprise, in Haliburton's _The Orient_, there ARE references to African
wonders. Non-standard, to be sure, but they are there. I was surprised that
Greece was considered "the Orient" for the book, as they were assuredly a
mother culture to western Europeans.

Agreed that I've never seen Latin America or the Pacific islands referred to
as "oriental".

Mike
Don Phillipson
2013-01-01 16:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
To my surprise, in Haliburton's _The Orient_, there ARE references to African
wonders. Non-standard, to be sure, but they are there. I was surprised that
Greece was considered "the Orient" for the book, as they were assuredly a
mother culture to western Europeans.
This usage is idiosyncratic i.e. peculiar to American author Halliburton.
By contrast, London's Oriental Club (founded decades before Halliburton
was born) was a gentlemen's club for old-timers who had worked in
India or China. To them (as late as 1980 when I visited it) "the Orient"
did not include either Japan or Greece. Palestinian author Edward
Said redefined this sphere in 1978 in order to include his homeland.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Don Kirkman
2012-12-30 19:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is racist in
the first place...
At the time of WWII, "the Orient" would refer to anything "exotic" to
the British. Richard Haliburton's _The Orient_ described places from
Greece, through the middle east, and India, and into China and Japan.
Exactly. A few years ago a different news group had a long tortuous
discussion on exactly that point. The irony was that most
participants were of Far Asian background, mostly Chinese, Japanese,
and Korean, when the whole discussion was influenced heavily by Edward
Said's "Orientalism," which actually dealt with the middle eastern
Orientalism of European Orientalists and adventurers.
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
Don Phillipson
2012-12-30 16:49:27 UTC
Permalink
"The Horny Goat" <***@home.ca> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

[About assimilation in Canada etc.]
Post by The Horny Goat
And then there are those who think the term "Oriental" is racist in
the first place...
US readers may remind themselves Canadians use the word race
in British style, quite different from "race" in the USA (19th or 20th or
21st century), mainly in the 19th century to distinguish the English,
French, Irish and Scottish communities (which were usually distinct voting
blocks in electoral politics.) The other recognized divisions were
language
(English/French) and religion (Catholic/Protestant) which required the
Canadian speciality of "Cabinet building." Whenever a new federal
government took office, its composition had to be subtly balanced
so as to represent all recognized communities at the top level. This
was even more important (decades ago) than whether the top chaps
were Easterners or Westerners, or whether their parliamentary
seats were big cities or rural ridings. Race (as US-style colour)
never thus figured and is nowadays irrelevant except for precedents
(e.g. first female governor-general (1984), first immigrant G-G., a
woman of Chinese stock, 1999, first government minister
of Japanese stock (2006) etc.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Don Kirkman
2012-12-30 19:24:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:29:42 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by Don Kirkman
This issue underlies much of the running discussions of Japanese
loyalty and other traits they were believed to have
An interesting byproduct of the Canadian Royal Commission on
Bilingualism and Biculturalism (approx. 1964-68) was documentation
of the differences between Japanese-Canadian and Chinese-Canadian
communities (both at that period long settled in the country, for two or
three generations.)
Thank you for a provocative response. I came at the issue from a
different standpoint, examining the stereotypes prevalent in the white
community from about 1900 to early in the relocation program. My data
were from contemporary journals and books, and the data make a case
that those negative stereotypes not only influenced the interpretation
of Japanese behavior and culture but also affected the planning and
decisions of the evacuation and relocation process.
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
Don Phillipson
2012-12-30 21:08:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
. . . differences between Japanese-Canadian and Chinese-Canadian
communities (both at that period long settled in the country, for two or
three generations.)
Thank you for a provocative response. I came at the issue from a
different standpoint, examining the stereotypes prevalent in the white
community from about 1900 to early in the relocation program. My data
were from contemporary journals and books, and the data make a case
that those negative stereotypes not only influenced the interpretation
of Japanese behavior and culture but also affected the planning and
decisions of the evacuation and relocation process.
Documentation to date suggests major differences between the Canadan
and US relocation programs of 1942. The main similarity was early
seizure of Japanese-owned fishing boats, and the widespread hostility
of economic interest groups (e.g. retail store owners and labour unions.).
A principal difference was that the Canadian government suggested
that Japanese relocate voluntarily X miles from the sea (X = 150 mi?)
and it seems those who went as far as Alberta or Ontario were not
thereafter penalized (although locally shunned on arrival as unwanted.)
Only those who did not relocate were deported by the government
to camps in the Rocky Mountains (typically derelict mine sites or
ghost towns) and could get out of the camps if able to arrange
employment elsewhere. The government attempted in 1946 to
persuade Japanese Canadians to move to Japan but this too was
voluntary, few complied (not least because the papers told them
Japan's cities had been burned down) and the program was abandoned.

Six postwar accounts were listed in Peter Ward's "The Japanese in
Canada" (1981) one of the first pamphlets commissioned by the new
Dept. of Multiculturalism in the 1970s. He there suggests an important
difference was that Chinese Canadians before 1945 were overwhelmingly
men in exile while Japanese Canadians had wives and children. Mark Bourrie's
book The Fog of War (2011), the only history of WW2 censorship in Canada,
has an interesting chapter about Tom Shoyama, editor (aged 25) of the
Japanese-language The New Canadian weekly paper in 1940,
permitted to continue publishing (in a Rocky Mts. village and under
censorship) throughout the war. (He later became an eminent civil servant.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
David Wilma
2012-12-31 16:38:04 UTC
Permalink
I'm interested in what Don learns. I have written about
ethnic groups in Seattle and the Pacific Northwest where
relocation/internment remain import events because of
local observances, community museums, and news coverage.
I have acquaintance who were involved, one man moved
to a farm in Wyoming with his family, not a camp, another
family went to a camp.

Japanese men begin arriving in the Puget Sound region in
the late 1890s and got jobs in the woods, in canneries, and
generally extraction industries. As families began to grow
communities grew in the cities. In Seattle, restrictive covenants
in real estate deeds targeted non-whites and non-Christians so
the Japanese
resided in a fairly discrete neighborhood along with African
Americans. The Seattle Public Library had a Japanese language
collection at the local Yesler Branch. Borrowers from all over
King County (then mostly rural) came to use the books.

In the mill town of Snoqualmie Falls there was a Japanese
community variously called Japan Camp, Jap Town, etc.
The men were employed generally as section hands
building and maintaining logging railroads. The kids all went
to the public school built by the company. They maintained
their language and culture and the Nisei grew up in two
cultures.

After the Japanese relocated in '42 their neighborhood in
Seattle was occupied by thousands of African Americans imported
for war work. The community in Snoqualmie Falls was
demolished to make way for mill operations.
w***@aol.com
2013-01-02 05:26:55 UTC
Permalink
...I have written about ethnic groups in
Seattle and the Pacific Northwest where
relocation/internment remain import events ...
Japanese men begin arriving in the Puget
Sound region in the late 1890s and got jobs
in the woods, in canneries, ....(much more).
Since this thread is about Japanese assimilation
I have a few observations with regard to that
subject, and am curious as to the views on the
whys and hows of the Japanese experience as
seen by others in the group.
It seems to me that the matter of
assimilation of the Japanese into the U.S. and other
Western societies had its genesis about 40 years
earlier than the 1890s as noted by Mr. Wilma above.
It is my understanding that the Japanese nation had
been largely isolated from the West for centuries
until the early 1850s when that began to change.
As civilized society goes, 1850 was not long
ago. My own grandmother was born in 1854 and
when I was a kid she often told me about things she
remembered from her own childhood during the U.S.
Civil War.
Their are some details I don't mention here
to save space but I believe the first real migration of
Japanese from Japan occurred about 1870, and
that was of males to Hawaii as contract laborers.
Their lives in Hawaii being no bed of roses, when the
U.S. annexed Hawaii in 1893 it created an opportunity
for Japanese from Hawaii to migrate to the west coast
of the U.S. and many did so. They were followed by
more from Japan along with the "picture brides" they
had sent home for.
In the U.S. they were used for hard labor during
the development of the western states, but ran into
competition with the Chinese who came earlier, and with
white immigrant labor from the East. This led to hard
feelings and to discrimination against the Japanese and
to the Chinese as well, in the "dog eat dog" atmosphere
which then existed.
This, in turn, forced the Japanese into segregated
communities from which they continued to work outside
as laborers but created other work by "doing each other's
washing" so to speak, within the communities of their own.
In so doing, they contributed further to the creation of
their own closed society which not only survived, but
grew. U.S immigration restrictions on their naturalization
as well as restrictions on their ownership of property,
served to exacerbated their segregation.
For these reasons the Japanese as a group
continued to be segregated as well as differing from
the mainstream U.S, society in four main ways; race,
language, ethnicity, and religion. Thus, when compared to
immigration groups from Europe, the Japanese were seen
as more homogenized and less American than the others.
Meanwhile, over the years, the mother country.
Japan, became a major military power and a threat
to the United States. At the same time, and because of
their lack of absorption into the U.S. mainstream (the cause
being irrelevant to the wartime reality) many Japanese
retained their loyalty and attachment to Japan through
citizenship, culture, family, and inheritance. This, coupled
with an abundance of military intelligence confirming the
involvement of some of the Issei and Nisei in espionage for
Japan, led to the now-controversial (but well-supported at
the time) evacuations and internments during WWII.
.
WJH
Don Phillipson
2013-01-02 16:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
It seems to me that the matter of
assimilation of the Japanese into the U.S. and other
Western societies had its genesis about 40 years
earlier than the 1890s . . . . the first real migration of
Japanese from Japan occurred about 1870, and
that was of males to Hawaii as contract laborers.
Their lives in Hawaii being no bed of roses, when the
U.S. annexed Hawaii in 1893 it created an opportunity
for Japanese from Hawaii to migrate to the west coast
of the U.S. and many did so. They were followed by
more from Japan along with the "picture brides" they
had sent home for.
In the U.S. they were used for hard labor during
the development of the western states, but ran into
competition with the Chinese who came earlier, and with
white immigrant labor from the East. . . .
For these reasons the Japanese as a group
continued to be segregated as well as differing from
the mainstream U.S, society in four main ways; race,
language, ethnicity, and religion. Thus, when compared to
immigration groups from Europe, the Japanese were seen
as more homogenized and less American than the others.
W. Peter Ward (Canadian historian specializing in the
Canadian immigrant populations) cites two basic differences
-- law and families.
1. Canadian law treated Asian immigrants differently.
Canadian law controlled Chinese immigrants directly,
admitting men only (and imposing a "head tax" up front,
$50 in 1885, $500 in 1903.) As a result, only one in 10
of Chinese immigrants who eventually died in Canada
had a wife or family. By contrast, Canada arranged for
the Japanese government to limit Japanese migration
at the source, collected no head tax and did not discriminate
between men and women. Some arrived with their families
and others, after successful settlement in Canada, could
send for wives.
2. Thus the traditional family was available as the basis
of Japanese-Canadian life, but not for (most) Chinese
Canadians. This difference determined attitudes
towards assimilation, acculturation, intermarriage etc.
(Ward also documents later marriage patterns. Most
second generation Japanese immigrant men (born in
Canada) returned to Japan to look for a wife, but the
third generation never did: they married people they
knew in N.America (half from Japanese families, the other
half intermarrying.)

This marriage pattern is exactly the same as of my
Scottish ancestors who migrated to Sweden approx.
1860. Second generation men, born in Sweden,
traveled "home" to Scotland to look for wives. (Off-
hand, I do not know what their sisters did.) Their children
saw themselves as wholly Swedish and married Swedish
wives.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Rich Rostrom
2013-01-02 21:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
It is my understanding that the Japanese nation had
been largely isolated from the West for centuries
until the early 1850s when that began to change.
Japan was closed to all foreigners (not just
Westerners) from 1639 to 1853; and Japanese who
left the country were prohibited from returning.
Post by w***@aol.com
when the U.S. annexed Hawaii in 1893 it created an opportunity
for Japanese from Hawaii to migrate to the west coast
of the U.S.
The U.S. annexed Hawaii in 1898. In 1893, a largely
American cabal of Hawaiian planters overthrew the
monarchy and sought annexation, but in the meantime
President Cleveland had been returned to office, and
he blocked the move as immoral.

Japanese immigration to the U.S., per the
_Historial Abstract_ of Census data, 1970 ed.

1861 - 1885 486 (19/year)
1886 - 1890 2,158 (432/year)
1891 - 1899 13,307 (1,478/year)
1900 - 1908 136,601 (15,178/year)
1909 - 1911 10,351 (3,450/year)
1912 - 1924 103,521 (7,394/year)
1925 - 1932 5,439 (680/year)
1933 - 1940 709 (89/year)

I don't believe this includes Japanese immigrants
to Hawaii prior to annexation; some of these may
indeed have migrated to the mainland after 1898.

A sidelight of Japanese immigration: the U.S.
Navy's employment of Filipinos as cooks and
attendants in officers' messes began after the
U.S. annexation of the Philippines in 1898.

Prior to 1898, the Navy employed _Japanese_
in this role. USS MAINE had eight Japanese cooks,
stewards, and attendants on board when she blew
up in Havana in 1898; seven were killed.

(There were nine other cooks, stewards, and
attendants on board - excluding regular ship's
cooks. All had "American" names.)
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-03 05:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by w***@aol.com
It is my understanding that the Japanese nation had
been largely isolated from the West for centuries
until the early 1850s when that began to change.
This is getting WAY off topic, but...
Post by Rich Rostrom
Japan was closed to all foreigners (not just
Westerners) from 1639 to 1853;
There was a small trading outpost near Nagasaki where the Dutch traded, and
made a yearly visit to the Shogun. Also, Koreans could do limited trading.
Post by Rich Rostrom
and Japanese who
left the country were prohibited from returning.
By law, though in fact, they were very often repatriated, imprisoned,
extensivley debriefed, "pardoned", then given a small but comfortable pension
the rest of their lives, if they were overseas for any length of time.

To sorta-kinda bring this into some sort of WWII relevance, there's book
called "The Shogun's Reluctant Ambassadors" which goes over some of the major
cases. One of these, and the most famous and influential, was "John Manjiro",
who spent considerable time on the East Coast with a prominent NE family. When
that family would vacation in Europe for the summer, he would stay with their
neighbors; the Delanos, FDR's maternal grand-parents. Manjiro's samurai sword
(he was awarded hatamoto status for his service during the Meiji Restoration)
was left on display undisturbed throughout WWII in Massachusetts.

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-01-02 23:18:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
It seems to me that the matter of
assimilation of the Japanese into the U.S. and other
Western societies had its genesis about 40 years
earlier than the 1890s as noted by Mr. Wilma above.
It is my understanding that the Japanese nation had
been largely isolated from the West for centuries
until the early 1850s when that began to change.
Well, not quite. Perhaps Mr. Hopwood is confusing Chinese, who came
in large numbers to work the gold mines (nearly every sizeable camp
had a Chinatown) and stayed to build the railroads in the 1860s, with
the Japanese. A group of Japanese was in California soon after the
gold rush, brought by an entrepreneur to establish a tea plantation,
but the adventure soon failed, and I have yet to find an indication
that any of the Japanese remained.

The Meiji Restoration of 1868 opened Japan's doors (with the help of
the Black Ships of the US Navy) to outside contact. However, it was
technically illegal for Japanese to leave the country until 1885. Some
few were sent by the government to begin studying western technology,
politics, and science, and at least one or two from those delegations
became naturalized citizens, though they later returned to Japan where
they established what became major universities. Some small number
of Japanese left Japan surreptitiously, a few Japanese were brought
ashore in the US from wrecks, and it was reported that by 1870 259 had
come through American ports. By contrast, an estimated 50,000 Chinese
were in the US when the 1882 embargo on Chinese immigration was
inaugurated.
Post by w***@aol.com
[W]when the
U.S. annexed Hawaii in 1893 it created an opportunity
for Japanese from Hawaii to migrate to the west coast
of the U.S. and many did so. They were followed by
more from Japan along with the "picture brides" they
had sent home for.
That was actually 1898, for the record. "Picture brides" was one of
the stereotypes about the morality of the Japanese. It was founded on
ignorance of Japanese marriage customs (common in much of Asia at that
time) of arranged marriages formalized by registration at a government
office. The women were, by Japanese law and custom, the wives of the
men they were coming to live with, but the common American
interpretation was that they were prostitutes in fact or in intent.

[My own marriage to my American wife when we were attached to an Army
base in Japan in the 1950s is registered both with the American
consulate and the local Japanese government agency, both prior to our
religious ceremony. The Japanese law is still in effect.]

The first group of Japanese , 200 men, were brought from Japan in
1884, one year before Japan changed its laws to allow free emigration.
They were recruited to work on American farms. In 1895 [while Hawaii
was still a sovereign nation] a labor contractor in Honolulu offered
to contract 30,000 Hawaiian Japanese to California farmers; they were
quickly grabbed up.

About 1900 Professor Edward A. Ross, then of Stanford University, gave
four reasons Americans should object to the immigration of the
Japanese: 1) they were unassimilable; 2) their law wages would
undermine labor standards; 3) they had a low standard of living; and
4) they lacked "proper political feeling for American democratic
institutions."
Post by w***@aol.com
In the U.S. they were used for hard labor during
the development of the western states, but ran into
competition with the Chinese who came earlier, and with
white immigrant labor from the East. This led to hard
feelings and to discrimination against the Japanese and
to the Chinese as well, in the "dog eat dog" atmosphere
which then existed.
If by "Western states" Mr. Hopwood means the three coastal states,
that is essentially correct, but by far the greatest numbers were in
northern California. The earliest to come as laborers were brought to
work large California farm holdings derived from Mexican land granted
to early American settlers in the central valleys of California. To
some extent they were replacing those Chinese who had been working in
farms [the Bing cherry was developed by a Chinese orchardist working
for an American near Sacramento], but many Chinese were turning to
urban occupations such as laundries and restaurants.

The Chinese and the Irish were contemporaries in the mines and
especially in railroad construction, the Chinese in the west and the
Irish in the east. By the time Japanese numbers were growing rapidly,
from around 1885, Irish labor leaders and politicians had become a
major force in San Francisco affairs.
Post by w***@aol.com
This, in turn, forced the Japanese into segregated
communities from which they continued to work outside
as laborers but created other work by "doing each other's
washing" so to speak, within the communities of their own.
Many Japanese operated small businesses as they formed families and
moved away from farm labor opportunities, but there were large and
successful Japanese businesses as well. At a time when Japanese
nationals were still allowed to own land, three individuals were near
the top of California's farm industry. Kinji Ushijima, aka George
Shima, owned or controlled several thousand acres in the heart of
California's central valley, and became the Potato King, Kanae
Nagasawa owned 2000 acres of grapes near Sonoma, the center of
California wine industry, reportedly making as much as one million
dollars a year. Another, named Domoto, controlled the flower market
of San Francisco during the same period. Many Japanese owned smaller,
more typical acreages.
Post by w***@aol.com
In so doing, they contributed further to the creation of
their own closed society which not only survived, but
grew. U.S immigration restrictions on their naturalization
as well as restrictions on their ownership of property,
served to exacerbated their segregation.
Mr. Hopwood imagines that the Japanese voluntarily and willfully
withdrew from society to form their own enclaves, failing to recognize
the results of the cutoff of immigration (perhaps including wives
waiting in Japan), making it illegal for non-citizens (later, refined
to include anyone ineligible for naturalization) to own property.
However, the timing has become a bit murky. The picture bride
agitation was almost contemporary with the Asian School fiasco (with
the San Francisco earthquake in 1906 as a justification) that required
all Asian students to attend the Asian School [sometimes the "Oriental
School"]. The school was near Chinatown; the Japanese mostly lived at
some distance from the school.

Land laws began to appear around 1913 in some western states. They
were strengthened in 1922 in Ozawa v US, which ruled that Ozawa was
not white so was not eligible to become a citizen. This was quickly
amended into the anti-Asian land laws.
Post by w***@aol.com
For these reasons the Japanese as a group
continued to be segregated as well as differing from
the mainstream U.S, society in four main ways; race,
language, ethnicity, and religion. Thus, when compared to
immigration groups from Europe, the Japanese were seen
as more homogenized and less American than the others.
Presumably the Japanese self-segregated. :-)

Yes, race, language, ethnicity, and religion all played their part.
These were among the major stereotypical glasses through which white
Americans viewed Asians in general, and in particular, depending on
the time and place, the Chinese and the Japanese. The early agitation
against these groups was powered by politicians, newspaper publishers,
educators, religious leaders, and others who accepted the stereotypes
as true. When a university professor writes that a particular group
cannot be assimilated into American life, it becomes a strong force
against the group. When a religious group sees immorality in men
wanting to bring their wives to America to build a family, it becomes
hard for anyone to support such a program. When it is claimed that
Japanese are so untrustworthy that their own banks hire Chinese
tellers, it becomes hard to accept anything as trustworthy if it comes
from a Japanese.
Post by w***@aol.com
Meanwhile, over the years, the mother country.
Japan, became a major military power and a threat
to the United States. At the same time, and because of
their lack of absorption into the U.S. mainstream (the cause
being irrelevant to the wartime reality) many Japanese
retained their loyalty and attachment to Japan through
citizenship, culture, family, and inheritance. This, coupled
with an abundance of military intelligence confirming the
involvement of some of the Issei and Nisei in espionage for
Japan, led to the now-controversial (but well-supported at
the time) evacuations and internments during WWII.
Mr. Hopwood apparently will never be persuaded that "many Japanese"
never "retained their loyalty and attachment to Japan through
citizenship, culture, family, and inheritance" He fails to describe
how a majority of the relocated people used their American citizenship
to retain their loyalty and attachment to Japan.

It appears that the Japanese, like most immigrants, were assimilating
and doing well for themselves until outside interests intervened,
relentlessly using stereotyped descriptions of the Japanese until
they were forbidden to own property, to attend public schools in their
neighborhood, and to be taken at their word in public affairs--and
finally to be taken from their homes.

FWIW, California was not called "the Mississippi of the West" for its
navigable waters and river boats.
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
w***@aol.com
2013-01-03 20:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
....assimilation of the Japanese into the
U.S......had its genesis about 40 years...
earlier than the 1890s....the Japanese nation
had been largely isolated from the West for
centuries until the early 1850s...
Well, not quite. Perhaps Mr. Hopwood is
confusing Chinese, who came in large
numbers to work the gold mines...
No confusion. The word "genesis" doesn't mean
migrate. The Japanese first had to
come out of the closet. It wasn't until years
later that many of them migrated to Hawaii .
And I'm well aware that the Chinese preceded
the Japanese to the U.S..
Post by Don Kirkman
In the U.S. they were used for hard labor
during the development of the western
states,
If by "Western states" Mr. Hopwood means
the three coastal states, that is essentially
correct, but by far the greatest numbers were
in northern California.
The last time I looked, California was one of the
"western states."
Post by Don Kirkman
... U.S immigration restrictions on
their naturalization as well as ...ownership of
property...exacerbated their segregation
Mr. Hopwood imagines that the Japanese
voluntarily and willfully withdrew from
society .to form their own enclaves,.....
That's false and a cheap shot. For a moment I
thought I had opened one of Mr. Fester's posts
by mistake.
Post by Don Kirkman
....Japan, became a major military power
and a threat to the United States...
many Japanese retained their loyalty and
attachment to Japan through citizenship,
culture, family, and inheritance.
Mr. Hopwood apparently will never be
persuaded that "many Japanese"
never "retained their loyalty and attachment
to Japan through citizenship, culture, family,
and inheritance"
there were two factions. Some loyal to the U.S.,
some not. But after Pearl Harbor the problem was
to identify who belonged to which faction out of the
more than 100,000 people of Japanese citizenship
or dual citizenship who resided in the sensitive
military areas of the west coast.
Post by Don Kirkman
(Mr. Hopwood) fails to describe
how a majority of the relocated people used
their American citizenship to retain their
loyalty and attachment to Japan.
No, I haven't failed to describe. You've failed
to acknowlege the truth. Unfortunately, your mind
appears to be closed to any change in your
prejudicial version of the historical record.
So, for the benefit of those willing to know
what happened, here's what really did:
By Pearl Harbor an estimated well over 50%
of the dual-citizen adults in the American-born
group still retained their Japanese citizenship
despite the strained relationship between the U.S.
and Japan. They could have easily renounced their
Japanese citizenship in a simple showing of loyalty
to the U.S., but few did. Why not? Instead there
were over 5,000 reunciations during the war, but of
their U.S. citizenship, not their Japanese. That was
"loyalty" all right, but to the wrong country.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-04 05:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
U.S......had its genesis about 40 years...
earlier than the 1890s....the Japanese nation
had been largely isolated from the West for
centuries until the early 1850s...
Mr. Hopwood apparently will never be
persuaded that "many Japanese"
never "retained their loyalty and attachment
to Japan through citizenship, culture, family,
and inheritance"
there were two factions. Some loyal to the U.S.,
some not.
The large majority in the first faction.
Post by w***@aol.com
But after Pearl Harbor the problem was
to identify who belonged to which faction out of the
Which didn't prove difficult for the professionals.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
(Mr. Hopwood) fails to describe
how a majority of the relocated people used
their American citizenship to retain their
loyalty and attachment to Japan.
No, I haven't failed to describe.
Yes, you have failed. However, if you are correct, it should be very easy to
dig up one of your own posts where you showed "a majority of the relocated
people used their American citizenship to retain their loyalty and attachment
to Japan."
Post by w***@aol.com
By Pearl Harbor an estimated well over 50%
of the dual-citizen adults in the American-born
group still retained their Japanese citizenship
despite the strained relationship between the U.S.
and Japan.
Last I checked, that was perfectly legal, and not a sign of disloyalty. After
all, German-Americans were not required to renounce their second citizenship,
were they, Mr Hopwood?

But what of those who WEREN'T dual citizens, Mr Hopwood? What of them?
Post by w***@aol.com
They could have easily renounced their
Japanese citizenship in a simple showing of loyalty
to the U.S.,
Well, some in fact did. Some in fact were members of the US armed forces
and took an oath. Some from Hawaii who had fought for the US were actually
allowed a small window to apply for US citizenship, whereby they EXPLICITLY
renounced all other citizenships.

What happened to them, Mr Hopwood? Or is "the benefit of those willing to
know what happened" not extended to those people?

Or, perhaps (more likely) you don't care.
Post by w***@aol.com
were over 5,000 reunciations during the war, but of
their U.S. citizenship, not their Japanese. To
Let's see, that was AFTER they were locked up without trial, right?

You really don't do honesty well, do you, Mr Hopwood?
Post by w***@aol.com
"loyalty" all right, but to the wrong country.
Sorry, why do you concern yourself with the loyalty of prisoners?

In any event, again, the reason you find it difficult to make conversions to
your revisionism is due to YOUR stubborness, not that of others. You cannot
bring yourself to admit it even MIGHT have been a mistake to lock up those
who WEREN'T citizens (dual or otherwise) of Japan. And you do not admit
the same standards were NOT applied to those who were dual-citizens of the
white Axis nations. This is dishonest on your part, but you won't change.

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-01-04 19:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
....assimilation of the Japanese into the
U.S......had its genesis about 40 years...
earlier than the 1890s
No confusion. The word "genesis" doesn't mean
migrate. The Japanese first had to
come out of the closet. It wasn't until years
later that many of them migrated to Hawaii .
And I'm well aware that the Chinese preceded
the Japanese to the U.S..
I know the two words. However, I don't see any evidence from Mr.
Hopwood about the genesis of assimilation of the Japanese during the
forty years prior to the start of immigration. For a long time the
Dutch had been granted trading rights on Dejima in Nagasaki harbor,
but that was strictly limited as was the Jesuit activity that
accompanied the Portuguese in eastern Asia. Until the Restoration
Japan continued to be a feudal nation without ruling authority, so
such permissions and controls largely depended on the local clan
leaders, the Daimyo. The Meiji Restoration was the first
consolidation of Japan as a single national entity, just as was
happening in Europe during the 17th and 18th centuries.

In what way did Japan "come out of the closet" in those forty years?
What seems to be lacking here are specific details of the genesis of
Japanese assimilation in the years preceding the restoration. Since
the popular belief in the late 19th and early 20th US was that the
Japanese were not assimilable it's unclear to me how an assimilative
pattern could have been apparent so early. Or perhaps the word is
being used to describe different things in different times.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
... U.S immigration restrictions on
their naturalization as well as ...ownership of
property...exacerbated their segregation
Mr. Hopwood imagines that the Japanese
voluntarily and willfully withdrew from
society .to form their own enclaves,.....
That's false and a cheap shot. For a moment I
thought I had opened one of Mr. Fester's posts
by mistake.
If the Japanese did not withdraw from society voluntarily then the
naturalization and land ownership issues Mr. Hopwood cites must have
been instrumental in promoting their segregation, and those issues
were not Japanese but American. At another point Mr. Hopwood
describes Japan as the "mother country" of a group the majority that
was American by birth and cites their "lack of absorption into the
U.S. mainstream" as a reason they retain the ties to Japan, but fails
to recognize that the lack of asssimilation arose from the very strong
opposition to their existence in the United States.
Post by w***@aol.com
there were two factions. Some loyal to the U.S.,
some not. But after Pearl Harbor the problem was
to identify who belonged to which faction out of the
more than 100,000 people of Japanese citizenship
or dual citizenship who resided in the sensitive
military areas of the west coast.
There were two factions, granted. But the heart of the matter is the
size of the factions. And as has been cogently argued several times
in these threads, the Japanese, German, and Italians considered most
critical were separated before the evacuation began.
Post by w***@aol.com
So, for the benefit of those willing to know
By Pearl Harbor an estimated well over 50%
of the dual-citizen adults in the American-born
group still retained their Japanese citizenship
despite the strained relationship between the U.S.
and Japan. They could have easily renounced their
Japanese citizenship in a simple showing of loyalty
to the U.S., but few did. Why not? Instead there
were over 5,000 reunciations during the war, but of
their U.S. citizenship, not their Japanese. That was
"loyalty" all right, but to the wrong country.
Precisely the situation with dual citizen Germans and Italians, was it
not? If the Nisei had any reason to feel they needed to "renounce" a
loyalty they never had, perhaps they would have done so. If the US
government had concerns about their loyalty perhaps it would have
passed legislation or published suitable regulations--for dual
citizens of all countries. The whole dual citizenship issue has the
feel of being raised in a time of crisis to justify decisions and
policies.

As for the actual renunciations of citizenship, the primary reason for
those renunciations was Nisei resentment and protest against documents
asking them to denounce all fealty to Japan **when they had none**.
Perhaps those questions were carelessly drawn, but the Nisei are still
being charged with those renunciations in spite of the actions of the
US government to expunge them.

How many German and Italian dual citizens renounced their foreign
citizenship when the US had rather strained relationships with their
"mother" countries?
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
w***@aol.com
2013-01-05 18:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
No confusion. The word "genesis"
doesn't mean migrate.
...I don't see any evidence from Mr.
Hopwood about the genesis of
assimilation of the Japanese during the
forty years prior to the start of
immigration.
There doesn't seem to have been any, even after
some 60,000 of them migrated to Hawaii between
1885 and 1898. In 1920 the Central Committee of
the Hawaiian Mission Centennial published a
"Centennial Book" on the occasion of the 100th
anniversary of Christian civilization in Hawaii. In it
the author, Utaro Okumura, had these comments
about the Japanese accomodation to life on the
outside, (Bear in mind--these observations were
written 21 years before the Pearl Harbor attack):
"Every one of then came here on a 3 year contract.
When the term...expired, some of them returned to
Japan while many preferred to remain....but almost
every one had an idea of going back to Japan as soon
as he could earn a fortune.
....To accumulate this they sacrificed all standards, or
ethics of everyday life...it was a community without
social control or social order...they had transplanted to
Hawaii the worst features of the native customs and
manners and habits of the lower classes. On any
festival, or holiday, or celebration, they would hoist their
country's flag and revel in noisy shouting of 'banzai'....
The article goes on to tell of the mass
movement to the U.S, west coast after
the U.S. annexation of Hawaii in 1898 and further notes
how the migrants adversely affected the relationship
between Japan and the United States by importing with
them the fear of "cheap labor, the danger of low moral
standards, and detestable customs and manners."
"The blame is on the Japanese themselves,"
continues the article, "who had undoubtedly the greater
share in inciting the fears and suspicions of America.
What the Japanese in Hawaii have done has stamped
deeply into the minds of the American people in Hawaii
and America the impression that Japanese are
unassiminable and undesireable, people."
The author concludes on a lighter note in which he
points out that in the decade 1910-20 and largely
influenced by World War I when Japan and the U.S. were
allies, the resident Japanes had begun to assimilate better
but that two distinct factions had developed. The author
put it in these words:
"Among the Japanese in Hawaii there are two
dominant ideas...(one) that children born in Hawaii should
be educated to be 100 percent American. The other IS
THAT OF THE MAJORITY (emphasis mine) -that the
children born in no matter what countries should be
educated as subjects of Japan (that) it is an act of disloyalty
to Japan to turn out thoroughly
Americanized...."
Post by w***@aol.com
... U.S immigration restrictions on
their naturalization as
well ...ownership of
property...exacerbated their
. . . . segregation
If the Japanese did not withdraw from
society voluntarily then the naturalization
and land ownership issues Mr. Hopwood
cites must have been instrumental in
promoting their segregation,
Well, well, now you agree with me. I had clearly
pointed out that they were forced into segregation
by circumstances not the least of which were the
naturalization and land ownership issues. Yet you
chose to "festerize" my remark by claiming it meant
the exact opposite of what it said.
and those issues were not Japanese but
American.
As I clearly pointed out, and not just because of
"racism" alone (which seems to have hypnotized your
historic perspective). There was also similar
prejudices against the Chinese caused not so much
by their race as by the cheap labor they represented i
in competition for work against immigrants from Europe.
And early Americans to the area also resented the
white immigrant ex-convict hoodlums from Australia of
which there was a significant number. My great
grandfather, a sea captain from New Jersey who sailed
around the Horn of South America to join the goldrush in
California, left letters still in my family describing the
violent lifestyle and the vigilante groups which tried to
control it in and around the San Francisco of those days.
At another point Mr. Hopwood
describes Japan as the "mother country"
of a group the majority that was American
by birth
But the ones I describe were also Japanese subjects by
choice. According to ONI,Countersubversion Section,
Confidential Report--Dec.4,1941:
"Out of a total Japanese population of 320,000 (aliens and
citizens) in the U.S. and its possessions, it is estimated that
127,000 have dual citizenship." Makes one wonder which
land did most of them regard as their "mother country."
And yes, I know all about the "dual citizenships" of some
Italians and Germans but how many of such children were
sent back to the Third Reich to be educated, or to Rome
likewise? And, as Prof. Krammer noted: "After 1939. Berlin
no longer considered German citizens who became citizens
of new countries to be citizens of the Third Reich." ["Undue
Process: The Untold Story of German Alien Internees." Arnold Krammer.]
...., but fails to recognize that the lack of
asssimilation arose from the very strong
opposition to their existence in the United
States.
That was only part of it. There was also the, "very strong"
attachment to Japan on the part of many of them because
of family, inheritance, education, reserve military affiliations,
and other connections which affected their decisions not to
renounce their Japanese citizenship.
There were two factions, granted. But the heart of the
matter is the size of the factions.
True. But out of an estimated 172,000
unidentified dual citizens, surely the size of the pro-Japan
faction had to be large enough to cause considerable
concern.
And as has been cogently argued several times
in these threads, the Japanese, German, and
Italians considered most critical were separated
before the evacuation began.
They were easier to spot as individuals for one thing.
But for whatever reason, just because the military thought
it feasible to handle the Japanese one way and the
Germans and Italians another, so what? That was their
responsibility and they had the prerogatives which went
with it to do what they thought best in the cirumstances.
The Supreme Court clearly pointed that out in Korematsu.
Fortunately in WWII the U.S. military was not yet bound
by latter social engineerinb to handle all enemy aliens
and suspects on an "equal opportunity" basis.
..... If the US government had concerns about their
loyalty perhaps it would have passed legislation or
published suitable regulations--for dual
citizens of all countries.
Are you kidding? All we needed in the days after Pearl
Harboer was a "Fiscal Cliff"-style debate in Congress
over dual citizenship.
The whole dual citizenship issue has the
feel of being raised in a time of crisis to
justify decisions and policies.
Just the opposite. It should be raised in
time of crisis. That's when the utter nonsense of dual
citizenship is loud and clear. How can anyone be equally
loyal to two countries when those two countries are at
war with each other?
As for the actual renunciations of citizenship, the
primary reason for those renunciations was Nisei
resentment and protest against documents
asking them to denounce all fealty to Japan **when
they had none**
Baloney. The questions you refer to were written primarily
with the Japanese nationals in mind and at least one
queswtion was changed after the Issei had a problem with it.
As for the Nisei, that they were so "shocked", "shocked" at
the insensitivity of the question they objected to, left many
suspicious of that as an alleged motivation for their
renunciations.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-08 16:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
No confusion. The word "genesis"
doesn't mean migrate.
...I don't see any evidence from Mr.
Hopwood about the genesis of
assimilation of the Japanese during the
forty years prior to the start of
immigration.
There doesn't seem to have been any, even after
some 60,000 of them migrated to Hawaii between
1885 and 1898.
Yet, according to Japanese records, 70% of the nisei were US citizens
only, either by never having had Japanese citizenship, or renouncing same.
Post by w***@aol.com
In 1920 the Central Committee of
the Hawaiian Mission Centennial published a
"Centennial Book" on the occasion of the 100th
anniversary of Christian civilization in Hawaii. In it
Well, nothing condescending about that title...
Post by w***@aol.com
the author, Utaro Okumura, had these comments
about the Japanese accomodation to life on the
outside, (Bear in mind--these observations were
Yes, back at the time Jim Crow ruled the South, when interracial marriage
was banned in many states, when discrimination by race was perfectly
legal, both at the state and federal level, when the military was
segregated... I believe you call them "the good ol' days".
Post by w***@aol.com
Japan while many preferred to remain....but almost
every one had an idea of going back to Japan as soon
as he could earn a fortune.
Yet they stayed, more than 20 years after this nonsense was written.
Post by w***@aol.com
....To accumulate this they sacrificed all standards, or
ethics of everyday life...it was a community without
social control or social order...they had transplanted to
Hawaii the worst features of the native customs and
manners and habits of the lower classes. On any
Got any stats on that? You know, crime stats, etc? Or is this just more
racist rambling of embittered old men?
Post by w***@aol.com
festival, or holiday, or celebration, they would hoist their
country's flag and revel in noisy shouting of 'banzai'....
As it happens, here in San Francisco, the German community still hoists
the German flag and sings German songs on various German holidays. In
fact, the same thing happens in Texas and Illinois, as well as Wisconsin,
and the East Coast. Also, it seems that the Italian/Italian-American
community STILL does the same thing for Columbus day all over the US. And,
of course, there are the Irish and their St Patrick's day.
Post by w***@aol.com
The article goes on to tell of the mass
movement to the U.S, west coast after
the U.S. annexation of Hawaii in 1898 and further notes
how the migrants adversely affected the relationship
between Japan and the United States by importing with
them the fear of "cheap labor, the danger of low moral
standards, and detestable customs and manners."
Kinda sounds like the objections to the Irish immigration, but which
SPECIFIC "moral standards and detestable customs" does he particularly
dislike?
Post by w***@aol.com
"The blame is on the Japanese themselves,"
continues the article, "who had undoubtedly the greater
share in inciting the fears and suspicions of America.
What the Japanese in Hawaii have done has stamped
deeply into the minds of the American people in Hawaii
and America the impression that Japanese are
unassiminable and undesireable, people."
Yes, by being discriminated against, they re-enforce the notion that
they can be discriminated against.
Post by w***@aol.com
The author concludes on a lighter note in which he
points out that in the decade 1910-20 and largely
influenced by World War I when Japan and the U.S. were
allies, the resident Japanes had begun to assimilate better
but that two distinct factions had developed. The author
So, they couldn't assimilate, but they were assimilating?
Post by w***@aol.com
dominant ideas...(one) that children born in Hawaii should
be educated to be 100 percent American. The other IS
THAT OF THE MAJORITY (emphasis mine) -that the
Of course the emphasis is yours; it is wrong, therefore it is your
whole point.
Post by w***@aol.com
and those issues were not Japanese but
American.
As I clearly pointed out, and not just because of
"racism" alone
Well, yes it was, isnce it RACISM alone which made it illegal for them
to become citizens if they were not born citizens and RACISM alone which
would make it illegal for them to own property in various states.
Post by w***@aol.com
describes Japan as the "mother country"
of a group the majority that was American
by birth
But the ones I describe were also Japanese subjects by
choice.
Yet they were the vast minority of US citizens of Japanese extraction.
Post by w***@aol.com
"Out of a total Japanese population of 320,000 (aliens and
citizens) in the U.S. and its possessions, it is estimated that
127,000 have dual citizenship." Makes one wonder which
land did most of them regard as their "mother country."
Makes one wonder how truly dishonest you are willing to appear in a
public forum, Mr Hopwood.

You've already been given a citation about tthe nisei at the time of WWII,
yet you cannot address it.

However, there were a total of 126,947 people of Japanese extraction in
all of the US as of 1940. It is therefore impossible for there to have
been 127,000 dual citizens in the United States (those in US possessions
were not interned en masse, and so are irrelevant to the discussion of
why US citizens in the US were interned.)
Post by w***@aol.com
And yes, I know all about the "dual citizenships" of some
Italians and Germans but how many of such children were
Yes, after Mr Graham made al this clear to you.
Post by w***@aol.com
sent back to the Third Reich to be educated, or to Rome
likewise? And, as Prof. Krammer noted: "After 1939. Berlin
no longer considered German citizens who became citizens
So, 15 years after Japan did that, Germany did the same thing, yet you
consider nazis reliable sources of who is trustworthy...
Post by w***@aol.com
...., but fails to recognize that the lack of
asssimilation arose from the very strong
opposition to their existence in the United
States.
That was only part of it. There was also the, "very strong"
attachment to Japan on the part of many of them because
of family, inheritance, education, reserve military affiliations,
Please explain the military affiliations of the nisei who had renounced
their Japanese citizenship, and explain their inheritence.
Post by w***@aol.com
There were two factions, granted. But the heart of the
matter is the size of the factions.
True. But out of an estimated 172,000
unidentified dual citizens,
Actually, you are the only one making an estimate of that size; there
weren't that many of Japanese extraction in the whole US at the time.

And, as pointed out numerous times, 70% of the nisei weren't Japanese
citizens.
Post by w***@aol.com
And as has been cogently argued several times
in these threads, the Japanese, German, and
Italians considered most critical were separated
before the evacuation began.
They were easier to spot as individuals for one thing.
Making them less effective spies, yes?
Post by w***@aol.com
But for whatever reason, just because the military thought
it feasible to handle the Japanese one way and the
Germans and Italians another, so what?
So why did they treat US citizens like enemy aliens, depending on
their race?
Post by w***@aol.com
..... If the US government had concerns about their
loyalty perhaps it would have passed legislation or
published suitable regulations--for dual
citizens of all countries.
Are you kidding? All we needed in the days after Pearl
Harboer was a "Fiscal Cliff"-style debate in Congress
over dual citizenship.
You pretend to be over 90 years old, and to have lived through these
times, and pretend to have studied the matter. In fact, that very thing
WAS debated at the time

http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Dual_citizenship/
"After the Selective Service Act was passed in 1940 in preparation for
America's likely entry into World War II, the War Department took steps
to resolve the issue of Nisei dual citizenship. The War Department
sponsored legislation over the summer and into the fall of 1941 that
would force Nisei to choose between their U.S. and Japanese citizenship
and go through a process of renouncing their ties to Japan and declaring
loyalty to the United States. Singling out Nisei would not have been
constitutional, so the proposed legislation was written in a way that
applied to all dual citizens. All persons with dual citizenship, not
just Nisei, entering into military service or employed in government,
no matter their place of birth, race, or nationality, would have to take
a formal oath of allegiance to the U.S. and renounce allegiance to all
other foreign governments, or give up their U.S. citizenship, be subject
to deportation, or at the very least, confinement in a "concentration
camp." This bill, presented under two different house resolution numbers,
H.R. 5879 and H.R. 6109, received a great deal of support but was the
subject of intense debate and scrutiny. Ultimately both bills failed
to pass, but testimony revealed that War Department representatives and
House Representatives both favored some wartime powers that would allow
the government to force Nisei to choose definitively between U.S. and
Japanese citizenship."
Post by w***@aol.com
The whole dual citizenship issue has the
feel of being raised in a time of crisis to
justify decisions and policies.
Just the opposite. It should be raised in
time of crisis. That's when the utter nonsense of dual
citizenship is loud and clear.
And once again, Mr Hopwood is at odds with Mr Hopwood; they couldn't have
a debate over dual citizenship after Pearl Harbor because of your fears
of a "Fiscal Cliff" style debate, yet that the sort of debate which
"should be raised in time of crisis".

You contradict yourself, Mr Hopwood. Additionally, you are unaware of
the debates which took place "at the time" you purport to have lived
in the US, and seem remarkably confused about the number of people of
Japanese descent living in the US at the time of Pearl Harbor.

Again, very dishonest of you.

Mike
w***@aol.com
2013-01-09 19:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
some 60,000 of them migrated to
Hawaii between 1885 and 1898.
....according to Japanese records, 70%
of the nisei were US citizens only....,
The same Japanese records that
tell us that the "comfort women"
were volunteer prostitutes? But
of course you would naturally
swear to the accuracy of such
records, even while continually
challenging the accuracy of
the records of the United States..
Post by w***@aol.com
festival, or holiday, or celebration,
they would hoist their country's flag
and revel in noisy shouting of
'banzai'....
As it happens...in San Francisco,
the German community still hoists
the German flag and sings German
songs on various German holidays
No doubt they sll give the Nazi salute while
singing "ve ist der master race" and finishing
up with a series of "sig heil's."
Yet they were the vast minority of US
citizens of Japanese extraction.
No, you got it backwards. They were a
substantial majority of U.S.citizens of
Japanese ancestry. According to the Office
of Naval Intelligencr they were over 52% of
the U.S. citizens of Japanese ancestry in the
U.S. and all of its possessions. And if you
count only the U.S. contintental limits and
Hawaii.they were over 60%. (See below: )
Post by w***@aol.com
"Out of a total Japanese population
of 320,000 (aliens and citizens) in
the U.S. and its possessions, it is
estimated that 127,000 have dual
citizenship."
Makes one wonder how truly
dishonest you are willing to appear in
a public forum, Mr Hopwood.
You do seem determined to live up to your
name, Mr. Fester.
You've already been given a citation
about the nisei at the time of WWII,
yet you cannot address it.
You mean the census of 1940? Well, let's see.
It says there were 284,852 PJAs in the U.S.
and Hawaii in 1940. That did not include the
Philippines and its more than 26,000 in Mindinao
alone. (See Stephan's "Hawaii Under the Rising
Sun.")
So, yes, the ONI's 320,000 figure sounds
just abour right for the U.S. and its posessions,
including the Philippines. As for the American-born,
the 1940 census shows 200,124 Nisei in the
continental U.S. and Hawaii alone. At 127,000 dual
citizens as shown by ONI that would put the
percentage of dual-citizen Nisei well over 52% in
mainland U.S. and Hawaii only.
However, there were a total of
126,947 people of Japanese
extraction in all of the US as of 1940.
It is therefore impossible for there to
have been 127,000 dual citizens in the
United States...
Rather *careless* of you, not to include Hawaii
which had over 120,000 American-born. Add
that to the some 80,000 in the U.S. and the total
is over 200,000 Nisei in mainland U.S. and Hawai
alone. Posssibly some in other U.S. possessions
as well. (See above).
.... (those in US possessions
were not interned en masse, and so
why US citizens in the US were >interned.)
Nope. Not irrelevant at all. They were just handled
differently. Hawaii could be and was handled by
martial law. That had nothing to do with how many
dual-citizen JAs were in the U.S. and its possessions.
And nothing to do with "internments" which involved
only alien Japanese (and JA renunciants) in Hawaii
as well is on the mainland and was a DOJ function,
not a WRA function.
Post by w***@aol.com
....There was also the, "very strong"
attachment to Japan on the part of
many of them because of family,
inheritance, education, reserve
military affiliations,
Please explain the military affiliations
of the nisei who had renounced
their Japanese citizenship
Sure: Here are excerpts from War Department
MID #201 of November 3, 1941:
"...on Oct. 2, 1941, ...Senate Resolution 176..
....charged that the Japanese Consulate agents
have helped organize the powerful subversive
organization known as the "Japanese Military
Serviceman's League"...the military league,
"has 7,200 members consisting of Japanese
subjects and dual citizens of Japanese ancestry
(U.S. Citizens) who annually apply for deferment
of military service in Japan through the Japanese
Consulates."
"...the JapaneseMilitary Serviceman's
League and the Japanese Imperial Comradeship
Society operates in 65 localities with 74 branches...
exert strong influence over the Japanese American
Citizens League".
BTW, one of the team who helped arranged the
surrender of Japan was a Japanese-American
serving in the IJN. His name was "George' Mizota.
Other JAs went down with the IJN battleship Yamato.
Best reliable estimates I've seen say that approx
7,000 Japanese-Americans served with the Japanese
armed forces against the U.S. in WWII.
....and explain their inheritence.
Registration in the family Koseki.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
There were two factions, granted.
True. But out of an estimated
172,000 unidentified dual citizens,
Sorry....Typo. I transposed. (see above).
Should be 127,000
Post by w***@aol.com
....All we needed in the days after
Pearl Harboer was a "Fiscal Cliff"-
style debate in Congress
over dual citizenship.
You pretend to be over 90 years old,
and to have lived through these
times, and pretend to have studied the
matter. In fact, that very thing
WAS debated at the time
No it wasn't. It was debated BEFORE Pearl
Habor, not AFTER Pearl Harbor. In fact it was
because of the tensions of the prior debate and
that the administration had other urgent matters
before Congress that it didn't want to muddy the
waters with a second such debate after the PH
attack. In my view the issue of dual-citizenship
should have been settled while the iron was hot
but the miitary decision to evacuate both citizen
and alien Japanese made the dual-citizenship
issue moot at that time.
As far as I know, it hasn't been raised since.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-10 05:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
some 60,000 of them migrated to
Hawaii between 1885 and 1898.
....according to Japanese records, 70%
of the nisei were US citizens only....,
The same Japanese records that
tell us that the "comfort women"
No. These were consul records "at the time".
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
festival, or holiday, or celebration,
they would hoist their country's flag
and revel in noisy shouting of
'banzai'....
As it happens...in San Francisco,
the German community still hoists
the German flag and sings German
songs on various German holidays
No doubt they sll give the Nazi salute while
Actually, you find more Americans who do that. However, as it happens, "banzai"
is non-political.
Post by w***@aol.com
Yet they were the vast minority of US
citizens of Japanese extraction.
No, you got it backwards. They were a
No, I actually supplied you with a reference on it.

As it doesn't agree with your prejudices, you dismiss it.
Post by w***@aol.com
substantial majority of U.S.citizens of
Japanese ancestry. According to the Office
of Naval Intelligencr they were over 52% of
Yet the Japanese did not have that many registered.

And, of course, there's the issue that ALL of the nisei were US citizens.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
"Out of a total Japanese population
of 320,000 (aliens and citizens) in
the U.S. and its possessions, it is
estimated that 127,000 have dual
citizenship."
Makes one wonder how truly
dishonest you are willing to appear in
a public forum, Mr Hopwood.
You do seem determined to live up to your
part. Yes. There were not 320,000 people of Japanese extract in the United
States in 1941.

This is a fabrication on your part.
Post by w***@aol.com
You've already been given a citation
about the nisei at the time of WWII,
yet you cannot address it.
You mean the census of 1940? Well, let's see.
It says there were 284,852 PJAs in the U.S.
Nope. It says there were 127,000 in the United States
Post by w***@aol.com
So, yes, the ONI's 320,000 figure sounds
just abour right for the U.S.
Nope. It sounds more than twice as large as it actually was.

As it happens, the greater number of nisei on Hawaii were NOT interned, and
therefor irrelevant to your argument about interning the lesser number en
masse in the United States.
Post by w***@aol.com
However, there were a total of
126,947 people of Japanese
extraction in all of the US as of 1940.
It is therefore impossible for there to
have been 127,000 dual citizens in the
United States...
Rather *careless* of you, not to include Hawaii
which had over 120,000 American-born. Add
No, not since the issue is about the nisei in the US, who were interned.
Post by w***@aol.com
.... (those in US possessions
were not interned en masse, and so
why US citizens in the US were >interned.)
Nope. Not irrelevant at all. They were just handled
differently.
Right; in Hawaii, those considered actual security risks were locked up, the
rest weren't.

So, the GREATER number could be safely handled near a war zone, but the smaller
number thousands of miles away couldn't be handled, regardless of how far they
were from a naval base, army base, etc.
Post by w***@aol.com
Hawaii could be and was handled by martial law.
Despite a far greater number. However, there WERE espionage cases there; they
just involved white citizens.
Post by w***@aol.com
dual-citizen JAs were in the U.S. and its possessions.
You mean "US citizens"?
Post by w***@aol.com
Please explain the military affiliations
of the nisei who had renounced
their Japanese citizenship
Sure: Here are excerpts from War Department
"...on Oct. 2, 1941, ...Senate Resolution 176..
....charged that the Japanese Consulate agents
have helped organize the powerful subversive
organization known as the "Japanese Military
Serviceman's League"...the military league,
"has 7,200 members consisting of Japanese
subjects and dual citizens of Japanese ancestry
(U.S. Citizens) who annually apply for deferment
of military service in Japan through the Japanese
Consulates."
OK, so you don't speak English, or are simply as stupid as you appear to be.
I asked, SPECIFICALLY

"Please explain the military affiliations of the nisei who had renounced
their Japanese citizenship"

You respond with nonsense about Japanese Consulate agents and Japanese subjects
and dual citizens.

However, that wasn't the question, was it Mr Hopwood? No, the question is
EXPLICITLY about those who renounced Japanese citizenship (but those who never
had it would fall into the same category.) Explain their military obligations.

If you can't, fine, the point is refuted.
Post by w***@aol.com
....and explain their inheritence.
Registration in the family Koseki.
Again, how does this apply to those who had renounced their citizenship, or
who had never had it?

And BTW, you didn't, and don't, have to be registered in a koseki to inherit,
and can inherit simply by being named in a will.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
There were two factions, granted.
True. But out of an estimated
172,000 unidentified dual citizens,
Sorry....Typo. I transposed. (see above).
Should be 127,000
There were 127,000 total in the US at the time, of Japanese descent.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
....All we needed in the days after
Pearl Harboer was a "Fiscal Cliff"-
style debate in Congress
over dual citizenship.
You pretend to be over 90 years old,
and to have lived through these
times, and pretend to have studied the
matter. In fact, that very thing
WAS debated at the time
No it wasn't.
Yes it was. It was discussed sponsored by the War Department from the summer
through the fall of 1941. This was time frame of what you consider the issue.
You, in your response to Mr Kirkman said this both NOT the time to disuss it
and next

"> > The whole dual citizenship issue has the
Post by w***@aol.com
feel of being raised in a time of crisis to
justify decisions and policies.
Just the opposite. It should be raised in
time of crisis. "
Which is it?

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-01-09 06:35:15 UTC
Permalink
...I don't see any evidence from Mr.Hopwood about the genesis of
assimilation of the Japanese
There doesn't seem to have been any, even after >some 60,000 of
them migrated to Hawaii between
1885 and 1898.
So there was no evidence of the genesis of Japanese assimilation forty
years before the beginning of immigration to the US? Is that whole
argument irrelevant, then?

Strictly speaking immigration to the US began in 1898 when Hawaii
became a US territory. Before that immigration to Hawaii was between
two foreign countries, and was primarily to provide labor for the
(American) owners' growing plantations--labor from China, the
Philippines, Japan, and Portugal.

Link to Mr. Hopwood's source: http://tinyurl.com/aobsxll
ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF CHRISTIAN CIVILIZATION IN HAWAII
1820-1920

This is a symposium memorializing the 100th anniversary of American
missionaries' arrival in Hawaii. The articles, about 70 pages in the
original format, are in eleven sections in the ebook version I have
cited. Many Catholic and Protestant groups are included; the articles
celebrate the history and describe the programs and experiences of the
various religious groups and agencies participating in the observance
and most were written by staff members of the various groups. Most
authors were associated with specific denominations or agencies.
Mr Okumura is identified as the Director of the Moiliili Settlement, a
service agency apparently still active in Oahu; his article is split
between section nine and section ten.
the author, Utaro Okumura, had these comments
about the Japanese accomodation to life on the
outside,
(Bear in mind--these observations were
Mr. Hopwood quotes much of the article intact; he correctly notes that
many of the early immigrants to Hawaii intended to return to Japan at
the end of their contracts, but many remained in Hawaii. "Every one of
them came here on a 3 year contract." as Mr. Okumura wrote.
"....To accumulate this they sacrificed all standards, or
ethics of everyday life...it was a community without
social control or social order...they had transplanted to
Hawaii the worst features of the native customs and
manners and habits of the lower classes. On any
festival, or holiday, or celebration, they would hoist their
country's flag and revel in noisy shouting of 'banzai'...."
Mr. Okumura's description is lacking in specifics and the tone and
content of his article differ substantially from the others in the
symposium. Of all the authors he seems to be the only one discussing
not his organization but his view of his fellow Japanese.

[In that time and place it was probably rare to find a Japanese person
discussing the acts or character of other Japanese for a non-Japanese
readership.]

Gary Okimoto, in his book "Cane Fires: The Anti-Japanese Movement in
Hawaii, 1865-1945" [ISBN 0877229457], 1991, has a quite different view
from that of Mr. Okumura. Discussing the World War I inflation and
contemporary labor problems in Hawaii, he writes [pp 65-66]

[Start]
". . . about 29,000 issei or nisei (second generation) Japanese
registered with the Selective Service System, out of a total Of 71,280
registrants in Hawaii. The Japanese had generally been excluded from
the National Guard, but the practice was modified during World War I
when "friendly aliens" were permitted to volunteer. (Japan had joined
Britain and the United States in declaring war on Germany.) In August
1917, 838 Japanese formed Company D of Hawaii's National Guard,
leading the Pacific Commercial Advertiser to comment: "It is going to
be a good company.... In fact, with the enthusiasm displayed by the
Japanese and their desire to give a practical demonstration of their
loyalty to the American flag, it is safe to say that it is going to be
one of the largest companies of the Guard in numbers and one of the
crack organizations in point of efficiency."'
[End]

Mr. Hopwood asked us to "[b]ear in mind--these observations [Mr.
Okumura's article] were written 21 years before the Pearl Harbor
attack,' which is reasonable. But by that time Mr. Okumura had
already observed changes for the better, as Mr. Hopwood himself noted.
And more telling, several years before Mr. Okumura wrote, both issei
and nisei were obviously demonstrating their loyalty to the United
States.
"The blame is on the Japanese themselves,"
continues the article, > The author [my elision - dk]. . .
points out [my elision - dk] the resident Japanese
had begun to assimilate better
but that two distinct factions had developed. The author
One faction believed that Nisei children should be educated as
Americans.
The other IS
THAT OF THE MAJORITY (emphasis mine) -that the
children born in no matter what countries should be
educated as subjects of Japan (that) it is an act of disloyalty
to Japan to turn out thoroughly Americanized...."
It is of course true, and obvious, that there were two factions. One
issue is that many of the anti-Japanese agitators, judging from their
activities, thought that the pro-Japanese faction outnumbered the
"Americanism" group and were a serious threat to the US. The actual
size of the two factions is a related issue.

It would be reasonable to expect the relative size of the factions to
tip increasingly toward American values and interests with the Nisei,
as has always been the case with second generation children of
immigrants even including the English settlers and their African
slaves (with their acculturation delayed by the "peculiar institution"
of slavery). Yet this seems never to have been acknowledged by those
who distrusted the Japanese.

At this early date in the history of Japanese immigration, 1920, it
may not have occurred to the agitators that second generation children
of immigrants consistently have become educated and acculturated, from
the earliest German and French to the most recent Irish, Slavic,
Italian, and others in the 19th century (and continuing to the Middle
Eastern and Asian immigrants since 1954.
If the Japanese did not withdraw from
society voluntarily then the naturalization
and land ownership issues [ . . .] must have been instrumental in
promoting their segregation,
Well, well, now you agree with me. I had clearly
pointed out that they were forced into segregation
by circumstances not the least of which were the
naturalization and land ownership issues.
Well, actually you didn't say they were forced into segregation, you
said naturalization and land issues "exacerbated their segregation".
It's good to see that you now admit some measure of the burden lay
with the anti-Japanese who were the force behind those circumstances,
not only with the immigrants themselves.

But no, I continue to disagree with your failure to recognize that, as
I have written elsewhere, the Japanese seemed to be acculturating like
other immigrant groups until the land laws and the inaptly so-called
picture brides agitation from around 1906 destroyed their chance of
becoming self-sufficient farmers and merchants.
There was also similar
prejudices against the Chinese caused not so much
by their race as by the cheap labor they represented i
in competition for work against immigrants from Europe.
Of course, but you do know, I hope, that the Chinese "threat" ended in
1882, before many Japanese were in the US. A 1925 publication says
that by 1880 Chinese were 15% of California's population--the Japanese
never approached that, The Chinese issue is a confirming example of
anti-Asian sympathies, but it played no direct part in the
anti-Japanese agitation beyond being anti-Asian.
And early Americans to the area also resented the
white immigrant ex-convict hoodlums from Australia of
which there was a significant number.
Significant, as in -- how many, compared to the thousands of Japanese?
My great
grandfather [my elision - dk] left letters still in my family describing the
violent lifestyle and the vigilante groups
Good point; the Vigilantes were a notorious group in and around San
Francisco that took the law into their own hands with occasional
lynchings and other nefarious activities. Oddly enough, they seem to
have played nicely with the anti-Japanese groups.
But the ones I describe were also Japanese subjects by
choice. According to ONI,Countersubversion Section,
Actually they were not subjects by choice, but by the law of their
parents' native country. The Nisei overwhelmingly were Americanized
by any reasonable standard.
"Out of a total Japanese population of 320,000 (aliens and
citizens) in the U.S. and its possessions,
The 1940 US Census reported a nationwide Japanese population of
126,947 in the 48 states, of whom 112,541 were in the western states.
Hawaii is not listed since it was not yet a state. There were
apparently no similar reports for the US territories, but 20 years
later, after statehood, the Japanese ethnic population of Hawaii in
1960 was 203,455.
There was also the, "very strong"
attachment to Japan on the part of many of them because
of family, inheritance, education, reserve military affiliations,
and other connections which affected their decisions not to
renounce their Japanese citizenship.
The criteria for "very strong" seem rather hazy, and "many" is an
undefined proportion. Any clarification available?
But out of an estimated 172,000
unidentified dual citizens, surely the size of the pro-Japan
faction had to be large enough to cause considerable
concern.
"Surely" is rather weak evidence, especially when based on speculation
about what led to the "considerable concern."
the Japanese, German, and
Italians
They were easier to spot as individuals for one thing.
But for whatever reason, just because the military thought
it feasible to handle the Japanese one way and the
Germans and Italians another, so what?
As Mr. Hopwood appears to be a staunch conservative I would expect him
to want his government to abide by the Constitutional requirement of
equal treatment before the law.
That was their
responsibility and they had the prerogatives which went
with it to do what they thought best in the cirumstances.
That appears to be at odds with

"In Ex parte Milligan (1866), the Supreme Court ruled that a
prisoner's ability to challenge his or her detention could only be
suspended for a brief and finite period of time, and only if the
situation compelled it. The Court also ruled that military tribunals
generally lack jurisdiction over civilians who are not connected with
or engaged in armed conflict. Assessing the rights of an Indiana
citizen accused of plotting against Union forces during the Civil War,
the basic rules defined in Milligan are quite relevant today."
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/supremecourt/antebellum/landmark_exparte.html"

. . . and in line with an increasing intrusion of military reasoning
and influence into American civilian life.
Are you kidding? All we needed in the days after Pearl
Harboer was a "Fiscal Cliff"-style debate in Congress
over dual citizenship.
No, I'm not kidding. If I understand correctly Congress in fact
considered taking such action even before Pearl Harbor. The War
Department pushed Congress to pass legislation that would have forced
all dual citizens to renounce their non-US citizenship or be stripped
of their US citizenship. Once again that nasty issue of
constitutionality prevented them from passing the two bills in
question.

Re the question of the motivation for the dual citizenship
How can anyone be equally
loyal to two countries when those two countries are at
war with each other?
That question is loaded with the assumption that the Nisei
automatically fell on the side of loyalty to Japan, an assumption that
has yet to be proven valid.
As for the actual renunciations of citizenship, the
primary reason for those renunciations was Nisei
resentment and protest against documents
asking them to denounce all fealty to Japan **when
they had none**
The questions you refer to were written primarily
with the Japanese nationals in mind
I rather doubt the accuracy of that statement, because the questions
were obviously aimed at the Nisei since the Issei had no dual
citizenship to renounce, right?

In fact, there were two specific questions:

Question 27: Are you willing to serve in the armed forces of the
United States on combat duty, wherever ordered?

Question 28: Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United
States of America and faithfully defend the United States from any and
all attacks by foreign and domestic forces, and forswear any form of
allegiance or disobedience to the Japanese Emperor, or any other
foreign government, power, or organization (Williams and Coleman 1992:
63)?

If an Issei said "yes" to No. 28 he would lose his only - Japanese -
citizenship. If a Nisei said "yes" to No. 28 he would be tacitly
admitting that he acknowledged allegiance to Japan, which he was being
asked to renounce.

After a number of Issei and Nisei refused to answer to questions or
answered "no" question 28 was changed--for Issei only-- to "Will you
swear to abide by the laws of the United States and to take no action
which would in anyway interfere with the war effort of the United
States (Williams and Coleman 1992: 63)?" It was not changed for the
Nisei.

The authors of Personal Justice Denied, in the section "Before Pearl
Harbor," summarized the genesis and effects of the anti-Japanese
agitation that the immigrants had lived with for over four decades.

It clearly links the racial stereotypes that were widely accepted by
the white population as true throughout the immigration period, ca.
1895 - 1924, and the following years up to and during the relocation
itself. It was only after the end of the war and the release of the
camp residents that the stereotypes turned positive, in large part due
to the Nisei record during the war.

About the relocation itself, PJD says "This was done out of fear--fear
of sabotage, of espionage, of fifth column activity. There was no
evidence that any individual American citizen was actively disloyal to
his country."

This is stereotyping at work; the fact there is not a problem serves
as evidence of a coverup or other illicit activity.

Further, "It is the bitter history of an original mistake, a failure
of America's faith in its citizens' devotion to their country's cause
and their right to liberty, when there was no evidence or proof of
wrongdoing. It is a history which deeply seared and scarred the lives
of Japanese Americans."

On the West Coast, the war "rekindled the fears and prejudices of long
years of anti-Asian agitation carried on by organized interest groups.
Decades of discrimination against immigrants from Japan and public
hostility toward Americans of Japanese descent fueled outraged shock
at the Pearl Harbor attack "

PDJ: "The hostile reception and treatment of Japanese immigrants on
the West Coast are the historical prelude to the exclusion and
evacuation. Federal immigration and naturalization laws, frequently
sponsored and backed by westerners, demonstrate this public hostility
to Asians, particularly the Japanese. Laws which prohibited the
ownership of land by Japanese resident aliens and imposed segregation
in the schools tell the same story in the western states. Public
perceptions and misconceptions about the Japanese in this country were
affected by myths and stereotypes--the fear of "the yellow peril" and
antagonistic misunderstanding of the cultural patterns of the Japanese
in America. Resentment of effective economic competition also inflamed
public feeling and, combined with differences of language and culture,
left the small minority of Japanese Americans on the West Coast
comparatively isolated--a ready target at a time of fear and anxiety."

It's nice to know Mr. Hopwood is a Casablanca fan. So we do have
something in common. ;-)
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-10 05:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Don Kirkman <***@charter.net> wrote:

Couple of points...
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
As for the actual renunciations of citizenship, the
primary reason for those renunciations was Nisei
resentment and protest against documents
asking them to denounce all fealty to Japan **when
they had none**
The questions you refer to were written primarily
with the Japanese nationals in mind
I rather doubt the accuracy of that statement, because the questions
were obviously aimed at the Nisei since the Issei had no dual
citizenship to renounce, right?
Question 27: Are you willing to serve in the armed forces of the
United States on combat duty, wherever ordered?
In fact, any nisei or sansei in the Armed Forces were kicked out immediately
post Pearl Harbor.
Post by Don Kirkman
Question 28: Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United
States of America and faithfully defend the United States from any and
all attacks by foreign and domestic forces, and forswear any form of
allegiance or disobedience to the Japanese Emperor, or any other
63)?
And, in fact, that's pretty much the oath one takes when one naturalizes,
though Japan isn't specified. However, of the several hundred Hawaiian-
born "Japanese" who fought for the US in WWWI and were allowed to
naturalize, and had already taken the oath, they were locked up along
with all the others, if they had the audacity to actually LIVE in the
US afterwards.

Mike
Stephen Graham
2013-01-10 06:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
In fact, any nisei or sansei in the Armed Forces were kicked out immediately
post Pearl Harbor.
While a large number were discharged, a majority were retained in the
Army. Those within the Western Defense Command were shipped to the
interior, usually into service units. As we know, those in the Hawaiian
National Guard were segregated and eventually shipped to the mainland
eventually forming the 100th Infantry Battalion.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-11 02:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
In fact, any nisei or sansei in the Armed Forces were kicked out
immediately post Pearl Harbor.
While a large number were discharged, a majority were retained in the
Army. Those within the Western Defense Command were shipped to the
interior, usually into service units.
I haven't seen any hard numbers, but the articles I read seemed to incidate
the majority of the nisei were discharged, and those who weren't were
transferred to less sensitive areas. Also, I was under the impression that
all of those stationed on the West Coast were immediately discharged. Do
you have any numbers on all these? And the total number of nisei in the
armed forces at the time?

Mike
Bob Hart
2013-01-11 04:47:07 UTC
Permalink
It seems to me, as a semi-interested outsider to this discussion that much
is being made of renunciation of citizenship and/or dual citizenship.
Without having any figures in front of me, may I offer the following.
1. There are statements in the discussion that parents registered their
children as Japanese citizens at birth. So the children had no say in it.
Anyone under 18 in 1941 was a minor and had no legal standing.
2. If they were over 18, then there is pressure not to offend the honourable
parents by declaring that you don't want to be a Japanese citizen.
3. How many of these young people were actively aware of their dual
citizenship? It was done when they were just out of the womb. How much was
this then pushed onto them as they grew up. I am Australian but my father
was Scottish. That meant, I discovered late in life, that I could apply for
a UK passport as I apparently held UK citizenship as well. How many of the
young Japanese-Americans were in the same boat?
4. How many went back to Japan because it was their parents homeland? How
many US Citizens currently go back to Europe to visit the villages of their
forefathers? Kennedy did, but does that make him a dual citizen, both US and
Irish?
5. How many of these youngsters were caught in Japan when the war broke out
and were then coerced into service. I ask because we have had some
Australians return to see their fathers and grand fathers villages in Greece
and been rounded up for National Service in Greece, although they are
Australian citizens. How many were likewise caught up? And what do you do if
you are in the middle of a war and someone tells you because you are
Japanese, you have to join the army? What recourse do you have? Call the
American embassy? Hardly Likely!
6. How many of these Japanese Americans thought it wasn't a real problem
having dual citizenship and they would get around to fixing it up later,
only to find too late that later was now yesterday!

Just a few thoughts at the personal level, rather than the current
discussions which all seem to be high level, Census/Courtroom/ Legal level.

regards

Bob Hart
Stephen Graham
2013-01-12 21:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by Stephen Graham
While a large number were discharged, a majority were retained in the
Army. Those within the Western Defense Command were shipped to the
interior, usually into service units.
I haven't seen any hard numbers, but the articles I read seemed to incidate
the majority of the nisei were discharged, and those who weren't were
transferred to less sensitive areas. Also, I was under the impression that
all of those stationed on the West Coast were immediately discharged. Do
you have any numbers on all these? And the total number of nisei in the
armed forces at the time?
This is based off of _Nisei Linguists_, which isn't directly concerned
with the question. That book drew some numbers from the Selective
Service monograph previously cited. The only number given directly by
_Nisei Linguists_ is that about 400 individuals were shipped east from
Fort Lewis.

If I recall correctly, the 40th Infantry Division is the unit that
discharged all of its Japanese American enlistees.
w***@aol.com
2013-01-11 23:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Graham
While a large number were discharged, a
majority were retained in the Army. Those
within the Western Defense Command were
shipped to the interior, usually into service
units. As we know, those in the Hawaiian
National Guard were segregated and
eventually shipped to the mainland eventually
forming the 100th Infantry Battalion.
The above information doesn't show any actual
numbers and I hope i can be more specific.
However the available numbers pertaining to how
many JAs are alleged to have served in the U.S.
armed forces during WWII run the gamut from
33,000 to half that many and range all over the
place in between. They just don't add up. .
From what i can ascertain, before the
Selective Act of 1940 there were few
Japanese-Americans in the armed forces and
they were not separately classified by ethnicity.
But when draft registrations under the Selective
Service Act became effective in the latter half of
October, 1940, the Registration Cards contained
a place to list the registrant's race. My own
registration card dated October 16, 1940, shows
five racial categories, one of which was supposed
to be checked by the Selective Service person
conducting the interview.
These race categories shown were: "White,
Negro, Oriental, Indian,and Filipino. Thus, under
"Oriental," persons of Japanese, Chinese, and
others of Asian heritage (except Filipino) were
lumped together as "Orientals." And often, as in
my case, the person doing the interview didn't
bother to check the "race" block at all.
Then comes Selective Service. Special
Monograph #10, prepared 11 years after WWII,
which lists a total of 3,188 Japanese-Americans
who were drafted between the October 1940 draft
registration date and November 1, 1941, only a
few weeks before Pearl Harbor. I don't say it's
wrong but I can't find anything to confirm Mr.
Graham's belief that "a large number (of JAs)
were retained in the Army" and shipped to
service units in the interior. Only some 3,000
can thus be accounted for at the time of Pearl
Harbor plus those in reserve with the Hawaiian
National Guard who after PH were semi-activated
but denied any role which called for combat
training or weaponry and given only limited
segregated service duties.
But some 6 months later what had been
the Hawaiian National Guard was re-grouped into
what later became the 100th Infantry Battalion and
about 1400 of them under the new name were sent
to Wisconsin on the mainland for training. Meanwhile
another group was organized under the name of the
442d Regimental Combat Team, trained in Alabama
and later joined the 100th in Europe. Altogether, the 100th/442d with
replacements had about 8500 men
of whom the CO and most of the officers were
Caucasions. (See "Americans--The Story of rhe 442d
Combat Team" Washington Infantry Journal--Dec.
1946)
Then came the activation of the Military
Intelligence Service, of which about 6,000 Nisei
were trained during the war, approx 3700 of whom
served in the Pacific.
Personal Justice Denied and other cites which
seem to feed on it for a source, says thst 33,000
Japanese-Americans served in the U.S.armed forces
during WWII but service figures I can find add up to
only about half of that number. Dillon Meyer, head of
WRA, in his book "Uprooted Americans, " further
screws the numbers up. On page153 he says only
17,600 Nisei were inducted from the beginning of the
draft through the end of the war. Then, on the same
page, he reveals that the 33,000 number claimed by
PJD and some others, included service all the way up
through 1967, which was 22 years after the war was
over.
Then, Selective Service Monograph 10 claims
that only 21,000 JAs were ever inducted during the war
but still the numbers I can substantiate reach onluy
17,000.
So, as far as I am able to confirm, here are the
totals of JAs who served in the U.S. armed forces
during WWii:
Pre-war draftees--3,000
100/442d------ 8,500
(indluding original and replacements)
MIS 6,000
Total ----------------------17,000

That figure ties in closely with the number of
names of Nisei WWII veterans shown on the
WWII memorial erected several years ago in
Los Angeles. The last monument count I saw
ran just over 16,000 names.
So, how many was it? Can anyone else
either confirm or deny my figures as shown above.
If so, let's see your evidence.

WJH
Don Kirkman
2013-01-10 23:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Couple of points...
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
As for the actual renunciations of citizenship, the
primary reason for those renunciations was Nisei
resentment and protest against documents
asking them to denounce all fealty to Japan **when
they had none**
The questions you refer to were written primarily
with the Japanese nationals in mind
I rather doubt the accuracy of that statement, because the questions
were obviously aimed at the Nisei since the Issei had no dual
citizenship to renounce, right?
Question 27: Are you willing to serve in the armed forces of the
United States on combat duty, wherever ordered?
In fact, any nisei or sansei in the Armed Forces were kicked out immediately
post Pearl Harbor.
But I think by the time the questions were posed they were beginning
to think about getting volunteers for what became the first group of
Nisei inducted into the army from the camps.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by Don Kirkman
Question 28: Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United
States of America and faithfully defend the United States from any and
all attacks by foreign and domestic forces, and forswear any form of
allegiance or disobedience to the Japanese Emperor, or any other
63)?
And, in fact, that's pretty much the oath one takes when one naturalizes,
though Japan isn't specified. However, of the several hundred Hawaiian-
born "Japanese" who fought for the US in WWWI and were allowed to
naturalize, and had already taken the oath, they were locked up along
with all the others, if they had the audacity to actually LIVE in the
US afterwards.
Yep. And as I wrote, there were hundreds of Japanese who served in WW
I according to Gary Okimoto; I don't know how may were Issei, but
around 1917 there wouldn't be all that many adult male Nisei, ITSM.
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
w***@aol.com
2013-01-11 05:11:21 UTC
Permalink
...I think by the time the questions
were posed they were beginning
to think about getting volunteers for
what became the first group of
Nisei inducted into the army from the > camps.
Apparently the matter of how the so-called loyalty
questions came up, for whom they were intended,
and why, needs some clarification.
On January of 1943, SecWar Stimson
announced the proposed formation of a
Japanese-American combat team and that the
Army would ask for volunteers from the Relocation
Centers. There were 21,000 males of military
age in the centers from whom the Army needed
background information for purposes of recruiting
members in the new team and coincidentally the
WRA also needed additional background
information on all residents 17 years of age and
older in order to set up a leave-clearance program.
An agreement was reached between the Army
and the WRA to combine the Army recruitment and
the WRA leave-clearance program into one large
operation to be carried out in a joint registration
program in which two basic questionnaires were
developed.
DSS Form 304A titled "Statement of United
States Citizens of Japanese Ancestry" was
prepared for male citizens of draft age, while WRA
Form 126 Rev. titled "War Relocation Authority
Application for Leave Clearance" was for all female
citizens and alien males and females. Each form
held about 30 questions and right off the bat caused misunderstanding
because the WRA questions were compulsary but the Army questions were
voluntary.
Ten Army recruitment teams were set up to
visit the 10 relocation centers and one WRA
representative was appointed in each center to
handle that side of the program. These people
were brought into Washington for training sessions
and sent out to the centers during the first week in
February of 1-943.
The most significant of the questions asked
were No. 27 and No. 28 on both forms. Although the
numbers 27 and 28 appeared on both the Army and
the WRA forms, questios assigned to those numbers
were worded differently on each form. For example,
No. 27 on the Army form asked draft aged mails:
"Are you willing to serve in the Armed forces of the
United States on combat duty, wherever ordered?"
Whereas on the WRA form, No. 27 asked: "If the
opportunity presents itself and you are found qualified
would you be willing to volunteer for the Army Nurse
Corps or the WAAC?"
On the Army form, Question 28 (which became
known as the loyalty question) asked: "Will you swear unqualified
allegiance to the United States of America
and faithfully defend the United States from any and
all attacks by foreign and domestic forces, and forswear
any form of allegiance or obedience to the Japanese
emperor, or any other foreign government, power or organization?"
On the WRA form, Question 28 asked: "Will
you swear unqualified allegiance to the United
States of America and foreswear any form of a
allegiance or obedience to the Japanese
emperor, or any other foreign government, power
or organization?"
The above WRA No.28 immediately set up a
howl from the alien Japanese because if they signed
it they would be renouncing their Japanese citizenship
and since they couldn't be U.S. citizens, thus would be
people "without a country." And if they said "no" to the question
they risked being deported. For those
reasons a new WRA question 28 was prepared for all
aliens (but not female citizens) which read simply: "Will
you swear to abide by the laws of the United States and
to take no action which would in any way interfere with
the war effort of the United States?"
There were a total of 77,957 eligible to register
for the revised WRA question 28 at the 10 relocation
centers. Of that number, 65,078 did so with an
unqualifed "yes." Over 5,376 answered "No," 1,041
gave a qualified answer, and 3,254 had failed to
register at all.
Bottom Line on Army question 28 (the loyalty
question)--9,905 (26.3%) of the male citizens and
15% of the female citizens REFUSED to give an
unqualified "yes" when asked if they would swear
allegiance to the United States and give up any
allegiance they might have had to the Japanese
emperor.
(Source: "Manzanar Historic Resource Study,"
Vol. II NPS 1996)

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-11 05:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
...I think by the time the questions
were posed they were beginning
to think about getting volunteers for
what became the first group of
Nisei inducted into the army from the > camps.
Apparently the matter of how the so-called loyalty
questions came up, for whom they were intended,
and why, needs some clarification.
Yes; especially what is needed is an explanation of
1) Why do US citizens need to sign a loyalty oath?
2) Why do people serving in the US armed forces already require a loyalty
oath?
3) Why do people who have forsworn *ALL* foreign loyalties require a
loyalty oath?
4) Why was the same loyalty oath not required of white aliens at the tiime?

Mike
w***@aol.com
2013-01-11 17:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
...the matter of how the so-called loyalty
questions came up, for whom they were
intended, and why, needs some clarification.
Yes; especially what is needed is an explanation of
1) Why do US citizens need to sign a loyalty oath?
They didn't. It was voluntary which you would
have seen had you paid attention to my previous
post.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2) Why do people serving in the US armed
forces already require a loyalty oath?
The same reason the U.S. President, as Commander
in Chief, has to take another oath when he is re-elected.
Everybody serving in the U.S. armed forces takes a
loyalty oath when inducted, in WWII and now. But in
accepting a change of status, members of the armed
forces were and are sometimes discharged then
immediately re-inducted in the new capacity. At that
time the oath is re-administered.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
3) Why do people who have forsworn *ALL*
foreign loyalties require a loyalty oath?
Because the oath they previously took may not
have contained a specific phrase pertaining to
foreign loyalties. But even if it had, the
government may not have previously been
enforcing that particular provision of the oath.
For example, the current naturalization oath
was not and is still not being enforced insofar
as dual citizenships are concerned. If the U.S.
should again become engaged in a war where
some of its citizens were also citizens of an
the enemy nation, the same situation as arose
with American-born dual citizen PJAs in WWII
could re-occur.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
4) Why was the same loyalty oath not
required of white aliens at the tiime?
Because the particular oath in question had been
especially tailored to alien Japanese at their own
request. Furthermore, there were no white aliens
in WRA relocation centers. A similar statement
was required of white enemy aliens if they were
granted parole from DOJ internment.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-12 00:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
...the matter of how the so-called loyalty
questions came up, for whom they were
intended, and why, needs some clarification.
Yes; especially what is needed is an explanation of
1) Why do US citizens need to sign a loyalty oath?
They didn't.
Good. So, no reason to be suspicious if they don't sign one, since they
don't need to.

OK, one down.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2) Why do people serving in the US armed
forces already require a loyalty oath?
The same reason the U.S. President, as Commander
in Chief, has to take another oath when he is re-elected.
So, they had already taken one, yes? Like this?
"I, A.B., do solemnly swear or affirm (as the case may be) that I will
support the constitution of the United States."

"I, A.B., do solemnly swear or affirm (as the case may be) to bear true
allegiance to the United States of America, and to serve them honestly
and faithfully, against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and
to observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States of
America, and the orders of the officers appointed over me."

So, they had ALREADY taken a loyalty oath, which specifically stated that
they will serve against "all their (US) enemies or opposers whatsoever".

As this is quite specific, no need to take ANOTHER oath, is there?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
3) Why do people who have forsworn *ALL*
foreign loyalties require a loyalty oath?
Because the oath they previously took may not
have contained a specific phrase pertaining to
foreign loyalties.
Really? Seriously, that's your excuse this time?

So, you are ignorant of the process of naturalization. Well, you COULD look
it up, the US requires you to specifically renounce *ALL* loyalties to
ANY foreign power

"Prior to 1906, naturalization courts had little or no guidance on how
to apply or administer the law. The law did not include an exact text
for the oath. It stated only that an applicant:

"...shall...declare, on oath...that he will support the Constitution
of the United States, and that he absolutely and entirely renounces and
abjures all allegiance and fidelity to every foreign prince, potentate,
state, or sovereignty; and, particularly, by name, to the prince,
potentate, state, or sovereignty of which he was before a citizen or
subject; which proceedings shall be recorded by the clerk of the court."

That's pretty specific. Are the words "absolutely and entirely" unclear in
this context? No? Then we can all agree that those who were lucky enough to
have naturalized HAD INDEED forsworn *ALL* foreign allegiances.

OK, 3 down.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
4) Why was the same loyalty oath not >
required of white aliens at the tiime?
Because the particular oath in question had been
especially tailored to alien Japanese at their own
request.
But most of these were NOT "alien Japanese"; the were US citizens.

OK, that's 0 for 4, Mr Hopwood.

Not too good.

Mike
Rich Rostrom
2013-01-10 21:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
A 1925 publication says
that by 1880 Chinese were 15% of California's population...
In fact the Chinese proportion was 8.7%

(75,218 / 864,694)
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Don Kirkman
2013-01-10 23:55:25 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:27:51 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Don Kirkman
A 1925 publication says
that by 1880 Chinese were 15% of California's population...
In fact the Chinese proportion was 8.7%
(75,218 / 864,694)
A footnote I wrote in 1968 explains my figures, but it also shows why
I hedged on their accuracy.

"6. John P. Irish, "Reasons for encouraging Japanese immigration,"
Annals of the American Academy, Sept., 1909, p. 294, states that there
were 50,000 Chinese in a total state population of 379,994, but it is
doubtful that this census included Mexicans and Indians .The round
figure for Chinese also indicates that these figures are not to be
given too much confidence, but they are probably generally correct.
Elliot G.. Mears, 'California`s attitude towards the Oriental," Annals
of the American Academy, Nov., 1925, p. 203, says Chinese constituted
10% of the California population in 1850, 1860, and 1870, and reached
15% in 1880. A judgment that the Chinese at their peak reached at
least 10% of the total population of the state seems fully justified.
By contrast, the Japanese, who arrived concurrently with the rapid
growth of the state`s population, barely exceeded 2% at their peak."

Based on the questionable figures, my numbers would amount to 13.2%.
That was the best I had at the time from the contemporary sources.
John Irish was supportive of the Japanese and generally a reliable
witness; Mears was a Stanford professor who published a number of
books and articles on the California Japanese. If I should ever
publish my work I would have to include this issue among the ones
needing a work-over.
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
w***@aol.com
2013-01-10 21:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
So there was no evidence of the
genesis of Japanese assimilation forty
years before the beginning of
immigration to the US? Is that whole
argument irrelevant, then?
I didn't think it was an argument. I had
mentioned that there could not have been
any assimilation before the Japanese
began to migrate and that the "genesis"
of that was when they "came out of their
closet" c.a. 1853.
Post by Don Kirkman
Strictly speaking immigration to the US
began in 1898 when Hawaii became a US
territory.
I agree. Of course there was the migration to
Hawaii before that time and that engaged much
of our discussion in prior posts.
Post by Don Kirkman
...immigration to Hawaii was between two foreign
countries...
Agreed.
Post by Don Kirkman
Mr. Hopwood quotes much of the article intact;
Mr. Okumura's description is lacking in specifics
and the tone and content of his article differ
substantially from the others in the symposium.
Of all the authors he seems to be the only one
discussing not his organization but his view of his
fellow Japanese.
Well, that was the point of my reference
to the article. I thought it a very candid
description of the Japanese community
as seen through the eyes of one of their
own. Particularly his observations of how
the of the Japanese themselves had an
adverse effect on the future attitude of
them by American society in later years
when they migrated to the U,S.
Post by Don Kirkman
[In that time and place it was probably
rare to find a Japanese person discussing
the acts or character of other Japanese for
a non-Japanese readership.]
Indeed. That's what made the article noteworthy
in light of later events.
Post by Don Kirkman
.... several years before Mr. Okumura wrote,
both issei and nisei were obviously demonstrating
their loyalty to the United States.
That was during World War One but it is
noteworthy that their loyalty to the Unitad States
was not entirely spontaneous. The fact that Japan
and the U.S. had become allies in rhe war against
Germany was obviously a catalyst.
Post by Don Kirkman
It's good to see that you now admit some
measure of the burden lay with the
anti-Japanese who were the force behind
those circumstances, not only with the
immigrants themselves.
I never denied that. The point I have tried to
make all along is that regardless of the "cause,"
the problem existed. I think it indisputable that
there was a security risk from that faction of the
PJAs which was friendly to Japan and its interests.
How and why that faction got that way is irrelevant i
in time of war. To second-guess those responsible
for national security because of feelings of sensitivity
toward those sympathetic to the enemy, for any
reason, is just plain inexcusabe. The late Chief
Justice Wm, Rehnquist expressed it simply:
"in time of war a nation may be required to
respond to a condition without making a careful
inquiry as to how that condition came about,"
Post by Don Kirkman
...I continue to disagree with your failure to
recognize that..., as the Japanese seemed to be
acculturating like other immigrant groups until the
land laws and the inaptly so-called picture brides
agitation from around 1906 destroyed their chance of becoming self-sufficient farmers and merchants.
I don't fail to recognize that at all. But where you and
I most disagree is your own apparent failure to realize
that what happened in 1908 hardly had a bearing
in the bombing of Pearl Harbor 33 years later, and
there existed a necessity to take preventive steps
against further such episodes on the home front.
.
(wjhopwood wrote)
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
But the ones I describe were also Japanese
subjects by choice.
Actually they were not subjects by choice, but
by the law of their parents' native country.
By choice i mean they had a choice
to renounce their Japanese and thus
freeing themselves from the "law of
their parents' native country," Few did
so.
Post by Don Kirkman
The Nisei overwhelmingly were
Americanized by any reasonable
standard.
Except the standard of dual citizenship.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
"Out of a total Japanese population
of 320,000 (aliens and citizens) in the
U.S. and its possessions,
The 1940 US Census reported a nationwide
Japanese population of 126,947 in the 48
states, of whom 112,541 were in the western
states. Hawaii is not listed since it was not yet
a state.
Hawaii must have been listed somewhere. I have a
report taken from the 1940 census which shows PJA
37,353 Issei. Total was 157,905. Totals for both the
mainland and Hawaii were: Nisei 200,194 and Issei
84,658. Grand total 284,852.
Post by Don Kirkman
There were apparently no similar reports for the US
territories, but 20 years later, after statehood, the
Japanese ethnic population of Hawaii in
1960 was 203,455.
Based on 1960 census figures I have for the total U.S. including
Hawaii (464,322 PJAs) and assuming your
above number for Hawaii alone is correct, I show the
Hawaiian total breaks down to approx 158.695 Nisei
(78%) and 44,760 Issei (22%).
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
There was also the, "very strong" attachment to
Japan on the part of many of them because
of family, inheritance, education, reserve military
affiliations, and other connections which affected
their decisions not to renounce their Japanese
citizenship.
The criteria for "very strong" seem rather hazy, and
"many" is an undefined proportion. Any clarification
available?
One can only go by the percentage who actually
renounced their Japanese citizenship leading up
to the war as compared with those who did not.
During the 1930's, according to Prof. Stephan of
UofHawaii, that was approx 8% of those born prior
to the Japanese law change in 1924. But he also
reports that during the same period, 40% born after
1924 were registered by their parents at a Japanese
consulate thereby becoming dual citizens. That
would be for every single Nisei who renounced his
Japanese ciizenship, five new dual citizens were
added.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
But out of an estimated 172,000 (correction of
typo. Should be 127,000) unidentified dual
citizens, surely the size of the pro-Japan
faction had to be large enough to cause
considerable concern.
"Surely" is rather weak evidence, especially
when based on speculation about what led
to the "considerable concern."
OK. Choose your own number from 0 to 10.
With well over half of the American-born of
Japanese descent in the U.S. and possessions
also being citizens of Japan, what do you think
a normal concern would be? You probably think
zero. I would say over 9.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
That was their (the military's) responsibility
and they had the prerogatives which went
with it to do what they thought best in the
cirumstances.
That appears to be at odds with
"In Ex parte Milligan (1866),
I disagree with your reasoning there. Ex Parte
Milligan dealt wth two main factors, i.e, that
although in time of war habeas corpus may be
suspended in Accordance with Article I, section
9 of the Constitution, a civilian's right to a civil
rather than a military trial in areas where civil
courts were in session, could not be suspended.
Accordingly, Milligan's trial by military tribunal
was voided and Milligan was ordered released.
With regard to the evacuation, there were
no trials by military tribunal. There were several
trials in civil courts which ended with Supreme
Court decisions uphoding the terms of the
evacuation, (Hirabayashi, Korematus, come to
mind). So, if you are interested in the legal
ramifications of the evavuation, relocation, and
internments, more appropriate for your
consideration would seem to be McGrath v. Abo,
Acheson v. Murakami, Ludeke v. Watkins, and
Johnson v. Eisentranger, the last being to point
out how Japanese Nationals and other enemy
aliens were covered by the Alien Enemy Act of
1798 which among other things allowed for their
detention, confiscation of property, and deportation.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Are you kidding? All we needed in the days
after Pearl Harbor was a "Fiscal Cliff"-style
debate in Congress over dual citizenship.
.....Congress in fact considered taking such action even before Pearl
Harbor.
But that was "before," not "after" Pearl Harbor.
After PH another such prolonged and complicated
debate which would have involved not only
dual-citizenships involving Japan but with some of
our allied countries as well, was not wanted. The
government was reluctant to bring the matter up
again because it had more significant and less
controversial matters to present to Congress at the
time.
Post by Don Kirkman
Re the question of ...motivation for...
dual citizenship
Post by w***@aol.com
How can anyone be equally loyal to two
countries when those two countries are at
war with each other?
... the questions were obviously aimed at the
Nisei since the Issei had no dual citizenship to
renounce, right?
The questions had nothing to do with renunciations
per se. One was prepared for potential military
candidates and was meant as a loyalty oath to the
U.S. The other was aimed at civilians as a basis for
formation of a WRA leave policy.
Post by Don Kirkman
About the relocation itself, PJD says "This was done
out of fear--fear of sabotage, of espionage, of fifth
column activity.
Well, at least PJD got that rigtht. But based on the
known affiliations the PJAs had with Japan, there was
much to be fearful about. As a group their complete
loyalty to the U.S. could not be taken for granted and
figuring out "who was "who" was the major problem.
Post by Don Kirkman
here was no evidence that any individual American
citizen was actively disloyal to his country."
You must have dozed through that part of history.
There was plenty of evidence. After Pearl Harbor
occurred, it was known that a large number of Nisei
were already serving in the Armed Forces of Japan.
Other Nisei were serving the Japanese government
in civilian capacities such as radio propagandists,
prisoner of war guards, slave labor guard/interpreters.
David Kahn writes in "The Codbreakers:"
"After Pearl Harbor....the Tokumu Han expanded
....a torrent of intercepts was pouring into it...30 Nisei
girls eavesdropp(ed) on American radiotelephone conversations...."
Post by Don Kirkman
This is stereotyping at work; the fact there is not a
problem serves as evidence of a coverup or other
illicit activity.
Stereotyping, baloney. It was hard evidence of
disloyalty on the part of some Japanese-Americans.
Post by Don Kirkman
Further, "It is the bitter history of an original mistake,
a failure of America's faith in its citizens' devotion to
their country's cause and their right to liberty, when
there was no evidence or proof of wrongdoing.
With such an emotional approach to the issue you are
just ignoring the reams of military intelligence which
reveals the activity of Japanese pre-war subversive
activity and espionage involving Nisei and Issei which
is revealed in numerous pre-war and post-war ONI
and MID publications now declassified and available
for public review. An interesting one for starters is:
"Navy Department Office of Naval Intelligence
"Japanese Tokyo Club Syndicate, with Interlocking
Affiliations"--December 24, 1941 (27 pages).
(google "home.comcast.net/~eo9066/Intro.html.")
Post by Don Kirkman
It is a history which deeply seared and scarred the
lives of Japanese Americans."
Stop. You're breaking my heart. The history wasn't
so bad that their raid on the treasury for a couple of billion
dollars at $20,000 each didn't keep them from feeling better, i'm
sure. That the whole propaganda grant money apparatus to "educate"
the younger generation about what despicable people ran the U.S.
government in WWII. And the grant applicants had better be sure to
use the right vocabulary to describe those evil actions in WWII or "no
tickee no washee."
Post by Don Kirkman
the fears and prejudices of long years of anti-Asian
agitation carried on by organized interest groups.
Decades of discrimination against immigrants from
Japan and public hostility toward Americans of
Japanese descent fueled outraged shock at the
Pearl Harbor attack "
Oh, come on. There was a whole continental U.S.
population east of the Rockies who never met an
Asian immigrant and wouldn't have known a
Japanese from a Ubangi who also suffered from
"outraged shock" at the PH attack. Their shock
certainly was not 'fueled' by decades of
discrimination against Asians. It was fueled by,
in the immortal words of FDR, that "day of infamy."
Post by Don Kirkman
It's nice to know Mr. Hopwood is a Casablanca fan.
So we do have something in common.
Well, I do admire your obviously extensive historical
knowledge on this subject and the civility of your
posts. But, as for Casablanca we may differ because
I do believe that there are times when some of the
"usual suspects" need to be picked up, and that after
PH was one of them.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-11 02:43:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
.... several years before Mr. Okumura wrote,
both issei and nisei were obviously demonstrating
their loyalty to the United States.
That was during World War One but it is
noteworthy that their loyalty to the Unitad States
was not entirely spontaneous.
Really? How did you measure this, other than pulling it out of your
*ss?

Do you say the same about any Italian-Americans who fought in WWI for
the US? Of course not; they're white.
Post by w***@aol.com
The fact that Japan
and the U.S. had become allies in rhe war against
Germany was obviously a catalyst.
Obviously not, since Germany and Japan didn't fight each other all that
much. Total Japanese KIA were listed as 415. And by far the heaviest
fighting was over before 1915.
Post by w***@aol.com
the problem existed. I think it indisputable that
there was a security risk from that faction of the
PJAs which was friendly to Japan and its interests.
Probably why they rounded them up within a couple days of the outbreak of
the war, don't you think?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Actually they were not subjects by choice, but
by the law of their parents' native country.
By choice i mean they had a choice
to renounce their Japanese and thus
freeing themselves from the "law of
their parents' native country," Few did
so.
If by "few" you mean "70% of the nisei", you would be correct.

Otherwise, you would be incorrect, however that is not how real
people use the word "few".
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
The Nisei overwhelmingly were
Americanized by any reasonable
standard.
Except the standard of dual citizenship.
Sorry, that's nonsense, and because you apply this ONLY to those of
Japanese descent, racist.
Post by w***@aol.com
Hawaii must have been listed somewhere. I have a
You mean the Hawaii which did NOT lock up everyone of Japanese extraction?

OK, that doesn't help your case. In fact, it weakens it. If a larger
group could be handled NEAR OR IN a war zone without complete incarceration,
then surely a smaller aount, further away, could be handled as well.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
The criteria for "very strong" seem rather hazy, and
"many" is an undefined proportion. Any clarification
available?
One can only go by the percentage who actually
renounced their Japanese citizenship leading up
Again, for the slow of reading

"During the same period, 40 percent of Nisei born before 1924 took
advantage of the new provision for dual citizens to renounce their
Japanese citizenship. In 1927, the Consul General of Japan reported from
San Francisco that over 51,000 of approximately 63,000 Nisei, slightly
more than 80 percent held dual citizenship.[4] Other reports using data
from a census conducted under the auspices of the Japanese government
indicated that by 1930 only 47 percent of Nisei in California held dual
citizenship.[5] After 1930, fewer and fewer parents declared Japanese
citizenship for their children, and Nisei born before 1924 continued
to renounce their Japanese citizenship. On the eve of World War II
approximately 70 percent of Nisei retained U.S. citizenship alone.[6]"

Those citations are
4. Elliot Grinnell Mears, Resident Orientals on the American Pacific
Coast: The Asian Experience in North America: Chinese and Japanese
(Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1928), 107-08, 429, quoted in
Hirabayashi v. U.S., 320 U.S. 81 (1943), 98, fn 8.

5. Edward K. Strong, The Second-Generation Japanese Problem (Stanford:
Stanford University Press, 1934), 142.

6. Philip M. Glick, Memorandum to Dillon S. Myer, "Domicil"; and
McWilliams, "Dual Citizenship," 231-233.
Post by w***@aol.com
OK. Choose your own number from 0 to 10.
With well over half of the American-born of
Well, that doesn't seem to be the case. However, they WERE US citizens,
weren't they?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Are you kidding? All we needed in the days
after Pearl Harbor was a "Fiscal Cliff"-style
debate in Congress over dual citizenship.
.....Congress in fact considered taking such action even before Pearl
Harbor.
But that was "before," not "after" Pearl Harbor.
Which was the time-frame involved.
Post by w***@aol.com
After PH another such prolonged and complicated
debate which would have involved not only
Which is what you advocated:
"> The whole dual citizenship issue has the
Post by w***@aol.com
feel of being raised in a time of crisis to
justify decisions and policies.
Just the opposite. It should be raised in
time of crisis. That's when the utter nonsense of dual
citizenship is loud and clear. "

So, which is it, Mr Hopwood? You've dodged this long enough.

Or, and to clear up another of your misconceptions:
" How can anyone be equally
loyal to two countries when those two countries are at
war with each other?"

"loyalty" and "citizenship" are different concepts.
Post by w***@aol.com
our allied countries as well, was not wanted. The
government was reluctant to bring the matter up
again because it had more significant and less
Yet someone posing as William Hopwood claimed
"Just the opposite. It should be raised in
time of crisis."
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Nisei since the Issei had no dual citizenship to
renounce, right?
here was no evidence that any individual American
citizen was actively disloyal to his country."
You must have dozed through that part of history.
No unlike you, he actually seems to have remembered that the Bataan
Death March was after the decision to lock up all the "Japanese" on the
West Coast of the US.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
This is stereotyping at work; the fact there is not a
problem serves as evidence of a coverup or other
illicit activity.
Stereotyping, baloney. It was hard evidence of
disloyalty on the part of some Japanese-Americans.
Like? You mean, the potential subversives locked up IMMEDIATELY after the
outbreak of the war?

Or the imaginary nonsense you present?
Post by w***@aol.com
Stop. You're breaking my heart. The history wasn't
so bad that their raid on the treasury for a couple of billion
dollars at $20,000 each didn't keep them from feeling better, i'm
Well, that's what can happen when your government screws you over.

Best not to do that in the first place.
Post by w***@aol.com
government in WWII. And the grant applicants had better be sure to
use the right vocabulary to describe those evil actions in WWII or "no
tickee no washee."
Your finest hour, Mr Hopwood...

Mike
Duwop
2013-01-11 15:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Do you say the same about any Italian-Americans who fought in WWI for
the US? Of course not; they're white.
A sidenote here. My wife's grandfather served in Italy's famed
mountain troops the "Alpini" during WWI. He came over to the US
afterwards, did a bit of this and that, including a bit of rum running
and when WWII rolled around he volunteered his services, though
nominally overaged.
Well, they inducted him, I suppose he must of been a citizen by then,
with the idea he'd make a good instructor for some future US Mountain
division. They seem to have quickly (for the Army) realized that
experience does not mean he could actually instruct, his limited
english would have hindered that as well. (he never did learn to speak
english terribly well) And he was honorably discharged before his
enlistment was up. Thanks, but no thanks.

So, here in California, the US army was inducting former members of a
European Axis nation's military who was poorly assimilated, while
simultaneously discharging native born US citizens.

Crazy
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-12 00:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duwop
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Do you say the same about any Italian-Americans who fought in WWI for
the US? Of course not; they're white.
A sidenote here. My wife's grandfather served in Italy's famed
mountain troops the "Alpini" during WWI. He came over to the US
afterwards, did a bit of this and that, including a bit of rum running
and when WWII rolled around he volunteered his services, though
nominally overaged.
Well, they inducted him, I suppose he must of been a citizen by then,
with the idea he'd make a good instructor for some future US Mountain
division. They seem to have quickly (for the Army) realized that
experience does not mean he could actually instruct, his limited
english would have hindered that as well. (he never did learn to speak
english terribly well) And he was honorably discharged before his
enlistment was up. Thanks, but no thanks.
So, here in California, the US army was inducting former members of a
European Axis nation's military who was poorly assimilated, while
simultaneously discharging native born US citizens.
In the book _Up Front_, Bill Mauldin talks about serving with a German
national on the Italian front.

Fighting Germans.

Mike
The Horny Goat
2013-01-12 05:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duwop
So, here in California, the US army was inducting former members of a
European Axis nation's military who was poorly assimilated, while
simultaneously discharging native born US citizens.
Well if he served in the Italian army in WW1 that army's country had
been an ally of the United States at the time.

No mention of when he came to the United States was made - whether it
was before or after Mussolini and whether it was before or after the
Axis with Hitler's Germany.
Rich Rostrom
2013-01-12 18:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Well if he served in the Italian army in WW1 that army's country had
been an ally of the United States at the time.
The same was true of Japanese veterans of WW I.
Post by The Horny Goat
No mention of when he came to the United States was made...
It was stated that he engaged in
"some rumrunning"; therefore before
Repeal in 1933.

In any case, immigration was substantially
restricted after 1924, and all but stopped
after 1930.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Don Kirkman
2013-01-13 22:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Mr. Hopwood quotes much of the article intact;
Mr. Okumura's description is lacking in specifics
and the tone and content of his article differ
substantially from the others in the symposium.
Of all the authors he seems to be the only one
discussing not his organization but his view of his
fellow Japanese.
Well, that was the point of my reference
to the article.
And my response was that the article was very shaky evidence for
several reasons. First, it was far outside the intent and overall
content of the symposium to celebrate missionary endeavors, not to
engage in discussions of racial ideas. Second, there was not a single
verifiable fact in the article, somewhat odd for a spokesman, arguably
just Okumura's opinion. Third, it was at cross-purposes with the
evidence of strong Japanese support, Issei and Nisei, WW I recruiting
in the same period.
Post by w***@aol.com
Indeed. That's what made the article noteworthy
in light of later events.
To the contrary, that is what should have raised doubts about
Okumura's observations and how accurately they represented the
character of the imported plantation workers. An educated Japanese
person, as Okumura probably was if he was director of a social agency,
would tend to have a hard time understanding, let alone condoning, the
daily behavior of peasant farmers, as many of the immigrants were.
Caste feelings were still rather rigid that soon after the Meiji
Restoration. In the 1960s I still heard references, made with some
hint of admiration, to acquaintances having samurai roots.
Post by w***@aol.com
it is noteworthy that their loyalty to the Unitad States
was not entirely spontaneous.
They enlisted as soon as they were allowed to do so. The fact that
they had been prohibited before might have equally well motivated them
to refuse to enlist, but it didn't.
Post by w***@aol.com
"in time of war a nation may be required to
respond to a condition without making a careful
inquiry as to how that condition came about,"
How that condition came about is a very real issue in understanding
the context and analyzing the evidence of exactly what the condition
is. A researcher expecting to see sneaky, anti-American behavior is
more likely to see it in specific instances than a researcher more
open to nuances and cultural differences.

Rehnquist's statement, though, refers to how the problem arose, not
precisely to the nature of the problem, and much less to how the
problem should have been or could have been dealt with.
Post by w***@aol.com
I most disagree is your own apparent failure to realize
that what happened in 1908 hardly had a bearing
in the bombing of Pearl Harbor 33 years later
Whoa. I never said anything about that! Pearl Harbor had nothing to
do with the Japanese resident in the US.

I said that as early as 1915 there was a clear example of Japanese
loyalty, Issei and Nisei alike, to the United States. I had earlier
written about their beginning steps in acculturating and becoming
culturally American until their attempts were undercut by anti-Asian
laws, some specifically anti-Japanese.

These factors have been systematically ignored in much of the
discussion on this topic, and the blame lies with the anti-Asian
agitators, primarily on the West Coast.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Actually they were not subjects by choice, but
by the law of their parents' native country.
i mean they had a choice
to renounce their Japanese [citizenship]
When a young person has never been told he has a choice he can't be
expected to act on it. Nobody has provided evidence of how many
Japanese parents told their children about or encouraged them to act
on their dual citizenship status.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
The Nisei overwhelmingly were
Americanized by any reasonable
standard.
Except the standard of dual citizenship.
Which in reality was hardly relevant to the daily lives and thoughts
of most Nisei.
Post by w***@aol.com
Hawaii must have been listed somewhere.
It may have been, but it was not on the charts I search by year on the
US census site. I specifically searched for figures for the
territories, Alaska and Hawaii, for 1940, 1950, and 1960.
Post by w***@aol.com
One can only go by the percentage who actually
renounced their Japanese citizenship
I have for the total U.S. including
Hawaii (464,322 PJAs) and assuming your
above number for Hawaii alone is correct,
My figure for Hawaii is from 1960, as I wrote. I don't have the 1940
figure.
Post by w***@aol.com
During the 1930's, according to Prof. Stephan of
UofHawaii, that was approx 8% of those born prior
to the Japanese law change in 1924. 40% born after
1924 were registered by their parents at a Japanese
consulate for every single Nisei who renounced his
Japanese ciizenship, five new dual citizens were
added.
That would be the formalities, but as a measure of loyalties is
meaningless. The children would have been registered during
childhood, a parental decision and not their own. The issue is how
many really accepted that status and were affected by it in their
maturing years. It may not be meaningful to compare 8% renunciations
to 40% consulate registrations; in fact I would argue that it is not
since renunciation is an act by an individual and a registration is an
act by the parent of an individual.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
surely the size of the pro-Japan faction had to be large enough to cause
considerable concern.
OK. Choose your own number from 0 to 10.
I would say over 9.
Your assessment, like many of those made surrounding the time of Pearl
Harbor and the planning for evacuation, is an attempt to put a number
to a psychological assessment, the motivation and intent of Nisei and
Kibei. Such an approach invariably has to assume that most or all
individuals in a group have similar goals and motives. That isn't
true in everyday life, for any cultural group.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
... the questions were obviously aimed at the
Nisei since the Issei had no dual citizenship to
renounce, right?
The questions had nothing to do with renunciations
per se.
The reasons for the questions aren't all that important. The primary
issue was the artless wording (I would hate to think it was
intentional) that forced both Issei and Nisei to object to the
*implications* of the questions.
Post by w***@aol.com
As a group their complete loyalty to the U.S. could not be
taken for granted and figuring out "who was "who" was the major problem.
The forty-some years of vicious accusations of immorality, dishonesty,
shrewd dealings, and loyalty to the emperor played a very large,
largely ignored, part in creating that inability to take for granted
and figure out who was loyal.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
This is stereotyping at work; the fact there is not a
problem serves as evidence of a coverup or other
illicit activity.
Stereotyping, baloney. It was hard evidence of
disloyalty on the part of some Japanese-Americans.
No way. To the extent there was hard evidence, it was years after the
defamatory stereotypes led to some segregated schools, accusations of
prostitution, spying from their fishing boats, targeting important
potential targets by plowing arrows in their fields (one I know of
personally was that they targeted a *primary training airbase* with
Stearman trainers, which had only been opened a short time earlier--no
military significance, but the accusation survived). Publishers,
labor leaders, academics, politicians, all repeated these allegations
in various forms, and common folk accepted them as factual.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Further, "It is the bitter history of an original mistake,
a failure of America's faith in its citizens' devotion to
their country's cause and their right to liberty, when
there was no evidence or proof of wrongdoing.
With such an emotional approach to the issue you are
just ignoring the reams of military intelligence
My emotion, to the extent it is involved, arises from overt prejudice
toward non-whites, especially Blacks and Asians.
Post by w***@aol.com
Stop. You're breaking my heart. The history wasn't
so bad that their raid on the treasury for a couple of billion
dollars
About that: if the Japanese were so dangerous and so evil and so
incapable of assimilating into US society, how did they reform
themselves and persuade Americans, within a very few years, that they
were loyal, heroic, dependable, and as American as any of us? Some of
the first coming home from the camps were shot at, at least one home
was burned, On his way home to Hawaii in 1945, Daniel Inouye, in full
uniform with his medals, was denied a haircut in San Francisco because
"we don't serve Japs here."

In plain fact, the actions of the Japanese, those in the camps, in the
military, and elsewhere, during those years proved to the country that
an injustice had done, one that needed to be acknowledged.

Mr. Hopwood, you don't seem to be able to accept the giant steps your
country has taken to openly recognize and try to mitigate the wrongs
to the Japanese Americans.
Post by w***@aol.com
use the right vocabulary to describe those evil actions in WWII or "no
tickee no washee."
At this late date in this country you can still use a racial epithet,
one from the anti-Chinese era and not from the anti-Japanese years?
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
w***@aol.com
2013-01-14 18:23:39 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:46:43 -0500,
.... the (Okumura) article was very shaky
evidence....it was far outside the intent and
overall content of the symposium to celebrate
missionary endeavors, not to engage in
discussions of racial ideas....
But I guess he had the right to call things as he
saw them. Those who didn't like his view didn't
have to share it.
Second, there was not a single
verifiable fact in the article, somewhat
odd for a spokesman, arguably
just Okumura's opinion.
Which the man had every right to
express, unless you would have
preferred that the editor of the
booklet had censored it,
Third, it was at cross-purposes with the
evidence of strong Japanese support,
Issei and Nisei, WW I recruiting in the
same period.
I thought he was quite clear in his description
of the extent of support given by the Nisei to
the U.S. in WWI. What more could he have
done to show that they supported the U.S.
in WWI?
... An educated Japanese person, as Okumura
..would...have a hard time understanding... the
daily behavior of peasant farmers, as many of
the immigrants were. Caste feelings were still
rather rigid that soon after the Meiji Restoration.
Post by w***@aol.com
it is noteworthy that their loyalty to the Unitad
States was not entirely spontaneous.
They enlisted as soon as they were allowed to
do so. ...
Are you suggesting that the fact that Japan was
a U.S. ally in WWI had nothing to do with their
enthusiasm to sign up?
Rehnquist's statement....refers to how the
problem arose, not...precisely to the nature of
the problem , and...how the problem should
have been or could have been dealt with.
You seem to have missed his point which was
that it was not the mission of those responsible
for national security to go into what may have
been the reason for the existing situation. Their
mission was to take steps to provide as best
they could for national security. How societal
conflicts got to where they were was "yesterday's newspaper." It was
for the security of the future
which had become their immediate concern.
I said that as early as 1915 there was a clear
example of Japanese loyalty, Issei and Nisei
alike, to the United States.
Yes, as it became clear that we were headed in
the direction of World War I when we became
allied with Japan in the war agains Germany.
The situation was quite different in 1941.
I had earlier written about their >beginning
steps in acculturating and becoming culturally
American until their attempts were undercut by
anti-Asian laws, some specifically anti-Japanese.
You seem to be saying that the acculturation then
stopped as a result of the 'undercutting' by anti-
Japanese treatment by U.S. society. Regardless of
why that happened, and even if what you say is
correct, it does support the position of those
who believed that, on the eve of Pearl Harbor, and
regardless of the specific reason, the PJA's had not
reached a desired degree of assimilation and
acculturation into mainstream American as had other immigrant
groups.
These factors have been systematically ignored in
much of the discussion on this topic, and the blame
lies with the anti-Asian agitators, primarily on the
West Coast.
Whether you are right or wrong on WHY it happened,
you ARE acknowledging that the lack of assimilation
existed. Ant that was the problem our government
had to face straight on after the attack ch on PH.
That it did exist--not WHY it did exist. The latter was
for the sociologists to worry about, Security was the
Army's concern.
Post by w***@aol.com
i mean they had a choice
to renounce their Japanese
[citizenship]
When a young person has never been told he has
a choice he can't be expected to act on it. Nobody
has provided evidence of how many Japanese
parents told their children about or encouraged
them to act on their dual citizenship status.
We are not discussing babies in their parents' arms.
Most of the dual citizens were well over 18 years of
age and old enough to make up their own minds about whether they
wanted to retain citizenship in the Empire
of Japan. They knew what was going on in the world
and about the strained relations between the U,S. and
Japan before PH.
.
(Dual citizenship)...was hardly relevant
to the daily lives and thoughts of most Nisei.
Why not? The international situation was all over
the news and on the mind of all young Americans
as they registered for the draft in 1940.
Post by w***@aol.com
(re the 1940 census) Hawaii must have been
listed somewhere.
It may have been, but it was not on the charts I
search by year on the US census site.
I gave you the Hawaiian census figures for 1940.
They jibe with the combined mainland and Hawaii
numbers shown by James C.McNaughton on Page
8 of "Nisei Linguists."
My figure for Hawaii is from 1960, as I wrote. I
don't have the 1940 figure.
Well, you have it now. Per 1940 census in Hawaii
157,905 PJAs composed of 120,552 Nisei and
37,353 Issei. U,S. and Hawaii combined: 284,852
composed of 200,194 Nisei and 84,658 Issei.
.....It may not be meaningful to compare 8%
renunciations to 40% consulate registrations;
.... renunciation is an act by an individual and a
registration is an act by the parent of an
individual.
OK. Then let's just consider the 8% renunciation
all by itself. A pitiful number of loyal Americans
who, on rhe brink of war with Japan, are the only
JA dual citizens willing to give up their Japanese
citizenship.
Your assessment... invariably has to assume
that most or all individuals in a group have similar
goals and motives....
Not at all. Each one may have had a a different
motive. It didn't matter. What mattered was that
on the eve of war there was a large number of
enemy aliens and their children( of whom many
held enemy citizenship) and that alone was reason
to question their loyalty to the U.S.

Re "loyalty questions)
The reasons for the questions aren't all that
important. The primary > issue was the artless
wording...that forced both Issei and Nisei to
object to the *implications* of the questions.
But the question for the aliens was changed to
meet their reasonable criticism. And there was
nothing wrong with the question designed for the
potential Army recruits. Many who held dual
citizenship did have an attachment to the
Japanese emperor so what was wrong in asking
if they were willing to give that up?
Mr. Hopwood, you don't seem to be able to
accept the giant steps your country has taken
to openly recognize and try to mitigate the
wrongs to the Japanese Americans.
Giant steps to right wrongs? Do you mean like
paying $20,000 each with an apology only to
Japanese enemy aliens lawfully arrested on
bona fide FBI charges and interned along with
Germans and Italians in similar circumestances
BUT selecting only the Japanese enemy aliens
to apologize and pay reparations to?
The Germans and Italians were interned on
the same type of charges and held in the same
DOJ camps? You profess to be against anything
"racist," Yet there is nothing more "racist" than
what P,L.100-383 has done to favor only Japanese.
Where's the outrage from Mr. Kirkman and others
with regard to such naked racism? The hypocritical
silence is deafening.
Post by w***@aol.com
use the right vocabulary to describe those evil
actions in WWII or "no tickee no washee."
At this late date in this country you can still use a
racial epithet,
Wow! Relax. A little humor didn't hurt you. Or does
your obsession with "racism" include strict adherence
to speech codes and censorship?
FYI, according to semantic authority and author
of "The politics of Proverbs," Wolfgang Meider, that
particular expression is what is known as a
"metaphorical proverb." Meider has a whole chapter in
his book about that and other such exprssions which
are only slurs if used in a malicious context. Not when
they function as a humorous metaphor, as I used it, to represent a
trade of one thing for another.
In this case the "trade" being referred to was a
stipulation for the use of only certain derogatory words
phrases to describe the actions of the U.S. wartime government in
connection with the evacuation, when
making application for PL 100-383 "educational" grant
funds. This, in exchange for the approval of such
applications by those in a position to to do so.
Unbelievable but true. Look it up.
"The Civil Liberties Public Education Funf Resolution Regarding
Terminology." In concurrence with the
alternatives suggested by the National Japanese
American Historical Society (NJAHS).
[From CLPEF Dec. 9,1997 Release]

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-15 05:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:46:43 -0500,
.... the (Okumura) article was very shaky
evidence....it was far outside the intent and
overall content of the symposium to celebrate
missionary endeavors, not to engage in
discussions of racial ideas....
But I guess he had the right to call things as he
saw them. Those who didn't like his view didn't
have to share it.
Well, YOU don't seem to share the views of the sources YOU use to bolster
your case.

After all, to show the Japanese weren't assimilating, *YOU* state
"The author concludes on a lighter note in which he
points out that in the decade 1910-20 and largely
influenced by World War I when Japan and the U.S. were
allies, the resident Japanes had begun to assimilate better"

Can you explain this? Again, do you simply not read your own references, or
do you not understand them when you do?

Or is that not an "or" question?

Mike
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-16 05:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Are you suggesting that the fact that Japan was
a U.S. ally in WWI had nothing to do with their
enthusiasm to sign up?
Well, the war in the Pacific was essentially over by the time the US entered
the war, so yeah, it's pretty much a stretch to believe that that's why
they enlisted.

And, of course, the same thing would apply to the (white) Italian-American
enlistees, would it not? Yet you cannot see the parallel.
Post by w***@aol.com
You seem to have missed his point which was
that it was not the mission of those responsible
for national security to go into what may have
been the reason for the existing situation. Their
Right; so those ACTUALLY responsible rounded up suspect people immediately, of
any heritage.

Meanwhile, the political machinations went into play, and months later removed
a retroactively declared "threat".

But not, however, from an actual war zone.
Post by w***@aol.com
Yes, as it became clear that we were headed in
the direction of World War I when we became
allied with Japan in the war agains Germany.
The situation was quite different in 1941.
Right; for example, we were now at war with Italy, unlike WWI.

Or do you disagree?
Post by w***@aol.com
Whether you are right or wrong on WHY it happened,
you ARE acknowledging that the lack of assimilation
existed.
You YOU introduced a reference that said that, as of 1920, the Japanese WERE
beginning to assimilate:
"The author concludes on a lighter note in which he
points out that in the decade 1910-20 and largely
influenced by World War I when Japan and the U.S. were
allies, the resident Japanes had begun to assimilate better"

Do you disagree with your own citations?
Post by w***@aol.com
We are not discussing babies in their parents' arms.
Most of the dual citizens were well over 18 years of
age and old enough to make up their own minds about whether they
wanted to retain citizenship in the Empire
"On the eve of World War II approximately 70 percent of Nisei retained
U.S. citizenship alone."
http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Dual_citizenship/#cite_note-ftnt_ref6-5
Post by w***@aol.com
OK. Then let's just consider the 8% renunciation
all by itself. A pitiful number of loyal Americans
And explain the above, about the large majority NOT being dual citizens.
Post by w***@aol.com
Giant steps to right wrongs? Do you mean like
paying $20,000 each with an apology only to
Japanese enemy aliens lawfully arrested on
Actually, that's a figment of your imagination; the money was paid to all of
those locked up because of their Japanese descent.
Post by w***@aol.com
bona fide FBI charges and interned along with
Germans and Italians in similar circumestances
BUT selecting only the Japanese enemy aliens
to apologize and pay reparations to?
Again, that's a lie on your part.

Even according to your rambling nonsense, most of those locked up were US citizens.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
use the right vocabulary to describe those evil
actions in WWII or "no tickee no washee."
At this late date in this country you can still use a
racial epithet,
Wow! Relax. A little humor didn't hurt you. Or does
Actually, no, he's right; that was racist. It is applied to a particular group
as a term of derision.
Post by w***@aol.com
your obsession with "racism" include strict adherence
to speech codes and censorship?
Sorry, again, English is not your friend. You are not being censored, and
you are not being asked to adhere to any code. In fact, we encourage you
to express yourself as you see fit. After all, you are your cause's own worst
enemy.

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-01-16 22:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:46:43 -0500,
.... the (Okumura) article was very shaky
evidence
But I guess he had the right to call things as he
saw them. Those who didn't like his view didn't
have to share it.
Of course, but a personal opinion is not subject to verification.
Without supporting evidence it has very little weight in determining
facts.
Post by w***@aol.com
Which the man had every right to
express
Which in no way guarantees accuracy or that it is shared by other
Japanese. An opinion is evidence only for the individual's beliefs,
desires, wishes, or state of mind.
Post by w***@aol.com
What more could he have done to show that they supported the U.S.
in WWI?
Well, what you say he wrote was "The author concludes on a lighter
note in which he points out that in the decade 1910-20 and largely
influenced by World War I when Japan and the U.S. were allies, the
resident Japanese had begun to assimilate better but that two distinct
factions had developed." That seems somewhat offhand and not very
specific if he intended to highlight their supposedly changed
behavior. You didn't seem to take it very seriously if you, like my
speech community, use "lighter note" for somewhat trivial matters--and
it doesn't bear at all on his overall credibility.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
it is noteworthy that their loyalty to the Unitad
States was not entirely spontaneous.
Are you suggesting that the fact that Japan was
a U.S. ally in WWI had nothing to do with their
enthusiasm to sign up?
No, I am stating the fact that before the relevant changes were made
in their eligibility they were not allowed to enlist. That doesn't
shed any light on their state of mind before enlistment became a
possibility. Spontaneity is hardly an issue until there is an
opportunity to be spontaneous. Over 800 enlistments seems a pretty
telling number; the state of mind is really an unknowable lacking any
historical record.
Post by w***@aol.com
Rehnquist's statement....refers to how the
problem arose
You seem to have missed his point which was
that it was not the mission of those responsible
for national security to go into what may have
been the reason for the existing situation.
That's pretty much what I said: "Rehnquist's statement, though,
refers to how the problem arose, not precisely to the nature of the
problem, and much less to how the problem should have been or could
have been dealt with." IOW, it was somewhat irrelevant to the main
issue--I sort of wondered why you mentioned it.
Post by w***@aol.com
I said that as early as 1915 there was a clear
example of Japanese loyalty
Yes, as it became clear that we were headed in
the direction of World War I when we became
allied with Japan in the war agains Germany.
The situation was quite different in 1941.
Are you implying that how we deal with American citizens should be
influenced by the actions or policies of other nations? What
specifically had changed among the Nisei from 1915 to 1941 that
suggested they were less loyal to the US or less willing to fight for
their country?
Post by w***@aol.com
You seem to be saying that the acculturation then
stopped as a result of the 'undercutting' by anti-
Japanese treatment by U.S. society.
No, I said undercut, not stopped. But anti-Japanese laws and
agitation surely reduced the acceptance of Japanese, even Nisei, into
American society on an equal footing with most other minorities and
provided fertile ground for suspicion and resentment of the JAs.
Post by w***@aol.com
the position of those
who believed that, on the eve of Pearl Harbor, and
regardless of the specific reason, the PJA's had not
reached a desired degree of assimilation and
acculturation into mainstream American as had other immigrant
groups.
If assimilation and acculturation were desired the Japanese would have
been treated very differently on the west coast. It is undeniable
that they were restricted by law and by cultural attitudes from
competing on an equal footing with other American cultural groups.
Post by w***@aol.com
you ARE acknowledging that the lack of assimilation
existed.
Actually you acknowledged that above, "desired degree of
assimilation". The difference is in how we view that fact. I see it
as a failed opportunity, intentionally, to provide the Japanese (and
other groups throughout US history) an equal footing in this society;
you appear to see it as a reason not to afford them the same legal
standing as other groups if the US is at war with their ancestral
homeland.

I suspect that the real desired degree of assimilation was zero.
Post by w***@aol.com
Ant that was the problem our government
had to face straight on after the attack ch on PH.
Yes, but all relevant ethnocultural groups should have been treated
equally. The only reason the Japanese were singled out was the
underlying fear of their supposed loyalty to Japan and their supposed
lack of conformity to American ways, The military saw treachery in
the JAs because they expected to see it after forty years of steady
agitation and stereotyped thinking.

It's pretty well established how one views others plays a part,
sometimes a decisive one, on how one interprets information about
those others. Based on the evidence of the experience of the Japanese
on the West Coast I believe that is precisely what shortcircuited any
idea of providing individual examinations of the Japanese.

The decisions leading up to the evacuation were based on a fear
largely based on the atmosphere in California, where major players in
the state had worked for forty years to frustrate any opportunities
the JAs might have had to enjoy privileges granted to others by their
citizenship and nationality. In the end, they were denied equal
treatment before the law, suffered loss of some of their goods and
possessions, and were deprived of liberty.
Post by w***@aol.com
When a young person has never been told he has
a choice he can't be expected to act on it.
Most of the dual citizens were well over 18 years of
age and old enough to make up their own minds about whether they
wanted to retain [dual] citizenship
.
(Dual citizenship)...was hardly relevant
to the daily lives and thoughts of most Nisei.
Why not? The international situation was all over
the news and on the mind of all young Americans
as they registered for the draft in 1940.
How aware were any of us in our early twenties about developments in
Germany, Russia, Italy, Japan, Poland? The US was for most residents
an island of calm in the eye of a storm we took little notice of
before Pearl Harbor..
Post by w***@aol.com
OK. Then let's just consider the 8% renunciation
all by itself. A pitiful number of loyal Americans
who, on rhe brink of war with Japan, are the only
JA dual citizens willing to give up their Japanese
citizenship.
This is simply a restatement of your belief that only the Japanese
were threats because of what is your arguably mistaken belief that
their loyalties to ancestral homelands were more widespread and
stronger than those of any other group of Americans with dual
citizenship.
Post by w***@aol.com
Your assessment... invariably has to assume
that most or all individuals in a group have similar
goals and motives....
Not at all. Each one may have had a a different
motive. It didn't matter.
The American sense of justice has always held that motive and personal
accountability do matter, that personal responsibility and culpability
are paramount, and that before the bar of justice all citizens are
equal. The stereotyped belief that the Japanese had different
loyalties and psychological makeup from other Americans overrode that
sense of justice and loyalty--even though contrary evidence was on the
table from at least 1915. Nisei were still enlisting right up to
December, 1941.
Post by w***@aol.com
What mattered was that
on the eve of war there was a large number of
enemy aliens and their children( of whom many
held enemy citizenship) and that alone was reason
to question their loyalty to the U.S.
I believe it's been pointed out that a large majority of them did NOT
have Japanese citizenship.
Post by w***@aol.com
Re "loyalty questions)
But the question for the aliens was changed to
meet their reasonable criticism. And there was
nothing wrong with the question designed for the
potential Army recruits.
There was indeed something wrong: a strong implication of disloyalty
with nothing but a presumption that it was true, and this led to
further refusals. Eventually dissidents had to be removed to special
housing in Tule Lake or, for some, to prison.

Let's review that issue again, since you seem to struggle to
understand what happened.

In September, 1942, Nisei men of draft age were classified IV-C (enemy
aliens), but in October a War Department official asked Roosevelt to
allow them to enlist. Plans to develop a combat team were approved by
Roosevelt on February 1, 1943. Five days after that, all camp
residents were given a form, Application for Leave Clearance, which
included questions 27 and 28. Question 27 was primarily for the WRA'
planning for future residents of draft age. I believe I surmised in
an earlier post that preparing for enlistments might have been one of
the issues.

The haste in developing the questionnaires may have played a part in
the flawed wording. Question 27 applied to all residents; Issei
could not conscientiously affirm their loyalty to the US without
losing their Japanese citizenship.

Question 28 applied to all male residents, and implied that responders
in fact had a loyalty to the Emperor. 4600 of 21,000 Nisei replied
"no," qualified their answer, or failed to respond.

Question 28 was later changed--only for the Issei--to "Will you swear
to abide by the laws of the United States and to take no action which
would in anyway interfere with the war effort of the United States".
Arguably the Issei got more consideration from the system than the US
citizen Nisei.

Later yet, the title of the form was changed to "Information for Leave
Clearance."
Post by w***@aol.com
Giant steps to right wrongs? Do you mean like
paying $20,000 each with an apology only to
Japanese enemy aliens lawfully arrested on
bona fide FBI charges and interned along with
Germans and Italians in similar circumestances
BUT selecting only the Japanese enemy aliens
to apologize and pay reparations to?
Whoa! Do you really believe the WRA camp residents got nothing from
the those proceedings? ISTM you've used exactly the opposite argument
in the past, that those in the DOJ camps got nothing while the
relocation camp people got $20,000.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
use the right vocabulary to describe those evil
actions in WWII or "no tickee no washee."
At this late date in this country you can still use a
Wow! Relax. A little humor didn't hurt you.
There's no humor in that epithet.
Post by w***@aol.com
Or does
your obsession with "racism" include strict adherence
to speech codes and censorship?
FYI, according to semantic authority and author
of "The politics of Proverbs," Wolfgang Meider,
"No tickee no washee" is not a proverb, it is a direct put down of the
early Chinese, who after the mines ran out and the railroads had
enough eastern workers turned to running restaurants and laundries
along the West Coast, two of the few occupations they could enter with
impunity.

Many Europeans are less sensitive to race and racial epithets than we
Americans. Less race sensitivity seems good, less sensitivity to
epithets and slurs not so much.

The attempt to cloak this with some semblance of legitimacy and
relevance is a bit breath-taking.
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
w***@aol.com
2013-01-17 17:32:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0500,
Post by w***@aol.com
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:46:43 -0500,
I said that as early as 1915 there was a clear
example of Japanese loyalty
Yes, as it became clear that we were headed in
the direction of World War I when we became
allied with Japan in the war agains Germany.
The situation was quite different in 1941.
What specifically had changed among the Nisei from
1915 to 1941 that suggested they were less loyal to the
US or less willing to fight for their country?
The fact that in 1941 we were not only NOT allied with Japan.
we were at war with Japan. A significant number of JAs held
Japanese citizenship, had spent time in Japan, held status in
Japanese armed forces reserves, and were contributing money
to support the Japanese war in Asia. One couldn't be much
more sympathetic with enemy goals than that.
..... you appear to see it as a reason not to afford them the
same legal standing as other groups if the US is at war with
their ancestral homeland.
The JAs had the same legal standing as anybody else. A couple of
them took advantage of it and filed law suits to overturn government
decisions. They were not successful in rhe courts. Of course the
Japanese nationals were enemy aliens and had no legal standing but
neither did the German and Italian nationals who were interned.
[See further below]
Post by w***@aol.com
And that was the problem our government
had to face straight on after the attack on PH.
Yes, but all relevant ethnocultural groups should have been treated
equally.
We were not at war with "ethnocultural groups." We were at war with
nations. And on the west coast we had a cluster of enemy nationals
with ample intelligence evidence of pre-war subversive activity among
them sitting in the midst of our defense activity and with their
mother
country having just attacked us. How could any group be more
suspicious than that?
The military saw treachery in the JAs because they expected to see it
after forty years of steady agitation and stereotyped thinking.
Baloney. The military saw treachery because there was treachery.
Here are a few excerpts from the Supreme Court's Korematsu decision
upholding the evacuation decision:
"We cannot reject as unfounded that judgment of
the
military authorities and of Congress that there were disloyal members
of that population whose numbers and strength could not precisely and
quickly ascertained...That there were members of the group who
retained loyalties to Japan has been confirmed by investigations made
subsequent to the exclusion. Approximately five thousand American
citizens of Japanese ancestry refused to swear unqualified allegiance
to the United States and to renounce allegiance to the Japanese
emperor, and several thousand requested repatriation to Japan....
There was evidence of disloyalty on the part of some, the military
authorities considered that the need for action was great, and time
was short. We cannot---by availing ouselves of the calm perspective
of hindsight---now say that at that time these actions were
unjustified."
In the end, they were denied equal treatment before the law,
No they weren't. They got it. See the SC decision above. It
still stands to this day.
How aware were any of us in our early twenties about developments
in Germany, Russia, Italy, Japan, Poland? The US was for most
residents an island of calm in the eye of a storm we took little notice of
before Pearl Harbor..
I don't know what you were doing in 1940 but if you were in your
"early twenties" as I was, you had to be deaf, dumb, and blind not
to be aware of all the U.S. was doing in preparation for possible
armed conflict. I had just graduated from college that year and along
with many of my friends and classmates had already enlisted in the
Naval Reserve. Then in October we all had to register with
Selective Service even if already in the Reserves. The draft began
calling people up as early as November of 1940. I was called to
active
duty in February of 1941 and didn't get discharged until October of
1945.
How about you?
This is.... simply...your belief that only the Japanese
were threats because of ....their loyalties to ancestral homelands
were more widespread and stronger than those of any other group of
Americans with dual citizenship.
No doubt about it. And they were also clustered along the Pacific
coast,
a hot-bed of defense production and military activity and
where possible attack from Japan was expected to come from.
The American sense of justice has always held that motive and personal
accountability do matter, that personal responsibility and culpability
are paramount, and that before the bar of justice all citizens are
equal.
Hurrah! Expressed like a true patriot. Of course when the government
weighed the motive and personal accountability of those who held
citizenship in an enemy nation, knowing there were quite a few of them
on the west coast where Japan might strike but not their identities at
the
time, the military had certain responsibilities and the
accountability which
went with that responsibility to see that national security was not
overlooked.
I believe it's been pointed out that a large majority of them did NOT
have Japanese citizenship.
No, that was the minor children. On the contrary, it was pointed out
many times at the time and confirmed since that a majority of the
ADULTS
had dual citizenship. Nobody was worried about those under military
age
who were evacuated along with their parents so as to keep families
intact.
Post by w***@aol.com
...there was nothing wrong with the question designed for the
potential Army recruits.
There was indeed something wrong: a strong implication of disloyalty
with nothing but a presumption that it was true, and this led to
further refusals.
There was certainly more than presumption with the dual citizens.
They would not have had Japanese citizenship without having loyalty
to the Emperor. What was wrong about asking them if they would
consider renouncing that loyalty?
Let's review that issue again, since you seem to struggle to
understand what happened...all camp residents were given a form,
Application for Leave Clearance, which included questions 27 and 28.
Question 27 was primarily for the WRA' planning for future residents
of draft age.
You are confused. Let me clarify this for you. There was not one
questionnaire, there were two separate questionairres, each with 30
questions but the questions on each were not the same. One was known
as the Army questionnaire and the other the WRA questionnaire.
The Army one was given to male citizens of military
age for
urposes of Army evaluation for recruitment. The WRA one was given to
aliens and female citizens for purposes of planning for leave
clearances.
Both questionnaires had a Number 27 and a Number 28
but the questions were worded differently on each questionnaire.
Number 27 on the one known as the Army questionnaire asked
citrizen draft age males: "Are you willing to serve in the armed
forces
of the United States on combat duty wherever considered?"
But on the one known as the WRA questionnaire, Number
27 asked: "If the opportunity presents itself and you are found
qualified,
would you be to volunteer for the Army nurse corps or the WAAC?"
Number 28 (the loyalty question) on the Army
questionnaire
asked: "Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of
America and faithfully defend the United States from any and all
attack by foreign or domestic forces, and foreswear any form of
allegiance of obedience to the Japanese emperor, or any other
foreign government, power or organization?"
Number 28 on the WRA questionnaire was originally
worded "Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States
of America and forswear any form of allegiance or obedience to the
Japanese emperor or any other foreign government, power, or
organzation?"
Subsequently, after aliens protested the wording of
Number 28 on the WRA questionnaire, it was re-worded to this
version for all aliens (but not female citizens) to this: "Will you
swear
to abide by the laws of the United States and to take no actionh
which would in any way interfere with the war effort of the United
States?"
Post by w***@aol.com
Giant steps to right wrongs? Do you mean like
paying $20,000 each with an apology only to
Japanese enemy aliens lawfully arrested on
bona fide FBI charges and interned along with
Germans and Italians in similar circumestances
BUT selecting only the Japanese enemy aliens
to apologize and pay reparations to?
Whoa! Do you really believe the WRA camp residents
got nothing from the those proceedings?
You are confused about the difference between relocation
centers and DOJ internment camps the latter for enemy aliens
only, Above, I refer to the DOJ Internment camps. P.L.100-383
authorized payments to ONLY the Japanese enemy aliens
interned therein on bona fide charges. Didn't you now that? You
profess to hate "racisjm." Where's your objection to paying
only enemy alien Japanese but not other enemy aliens identically
situated for the same reasons but specifically excluded from any
payment because the law specifically says "Japanese" only?
Couldn't be more racist than that.
ISTM you've used exactly the opposite argument
in the past, that those in the DOJ camps got nothing while the
relocation camp people got $20,000.
Please. Concentrate. Try to get this right. The Japanese,
Germans, and Italians in the DOJ camps were all in there
together because of arrests, individual hearings, and
decisions of guilt on FBI security charges. The Japanese
got an apology and $20,000 each solely because they
were Japanese. The Germans and italians got zero,
nada, only because they were Germans and Italians.
Were's your outrage?
"No tickee no washee" is not a proverb, it is a direct put down of the
early Chinese, who after the mines ran out and the railroads had
enough eastern workers turned to running restaurants and laundries
along the West Coast, two of the few occupations they could enter with
impunity.
Come on. How politically-correct can you get? Of course it's a
proverb, and
subject to interpretation depending on the context in which it is
used. It's
recognized as such by professional semanticists such as the award-
winning
Wolfgang Mieder. It's only considered an ethnic slur whenever and
however
used by the "anti-bigot" bigots.
Many Europeans are less sensitive to race and racial epithets than we
Americans. Less race sensitivity seems good, less sensitivity to
epithets and slurs not so much.
After writing reams of protest against "stereotyping" here you go and
stereotype "many" Europeans for being "less sensitive to racial
epithets."
Perhaps you should take it a little easier on the "Holier than thou"
stuff.
The attempt to cloak this with some semblance of legitimacy and
relevance is a bit breath-taking.
On the other hand, I'm truly shocked, shocked at the degree of
hypocrisy
I'm seeing here.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-18 05:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0500,
Post by w***@aol.com
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:46:43 -0500,
I said that as early as 1915 there was a clear
example of Japanese loyalty
Yes, as it became clear that we were headed in
the direction of World War I when we became
allied with Japan in the war agains Germany.
The situation was quite different in 1941.
What specifically had changed among the Nisei from
1915 to 1941 that suggested they were less loyal to the
US or less willing to fight for their country?
The fact that in 1941 we were not only NOT allied with Japan.
Same with the "Italians" living in the US.
Post by w***@aol.com
we were at war with Japan. A significant number of JAs held
Most did not; you have been given a reference.
Post by w***@aol.com
Japanese citizenship, had spent time in Japan, held status in
Japanese armed forces reserves, and were contributing money
to support the Japanese war in Asia. One couldn't be much
more sympathetic with enemy goals than that.
And this number was estimated to be a few thousand. Those were immediately
rounded up in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor, and there were no incidents of
espionage or sabatoge afterwards.

Problem solved, until your beloved bureaucrats got involved.
Post by w***@aol.com
..... you appear to see it as a reason not to afford them the
same legal standing as other groups if the US is at war with
their ancestral homeland.
The JAs had the same legal standing as anybody else. A couple of
So, US citizens, entitled to the full protections of the Constitution?

Yet YOU say they weren't entitled to those.
Post by w***@aol.com
them took advantage of it and filed law suits to overturn government
decisions. They were not successful in rhe courts. Of course the
Japanese nationals were enemy aliens and had no legal standing but
Surprisingly, yes, residents of the US who were born and are citizens
of nations with which we are at war do, in fact, have legal standing,
and are similarly entitled to legal protections.

Have you ever even read the Constitution?
Post by w***@aol.com
Yes, but all relevant ethnocultural groups should have been treated
equally.
We were not at war with "ethnocultural groups." We were at war with
nations.
Like Italy and Germany.
Post by w***@aol.com
And on the west coast we had a cluster of enemy nationals
with ample intelligence evidence of pre-war subversive activity among
Again, slowly, for the racist-impaired;

that group has already been rounded up. Ever heard of the FBI?
Post by w***@aol.com
them sitting in the midst of our defense activity and with their
mother
country having just attacked us. How could any group be more
suspicious than that?
Apparently, they are only suspicious because they aren't white, in your eyes.

The "mother country" for the VAST majority of them was the United States.
Post by w***@aol.com
Baloney. The military saw treachery because there was treachery.
Again, slowly, those people were already rounded up.
Post by w***@aol.com
In the end, they were denied equal treatment before the law,
No they weren't. They got it.
So, all the Italian- and German-Americans were rounded up on the East Coast and
locked in camps?

No?

Well, then you are wrong.
Post by w***@aol.com
I don't know what you were doing in 1940 but if you were in your
"early twenties" as I was, you had to be deaf, dumb, and blind not
to be aware of all the U.S. was doing in preparation for possible
armed conflict.
And deafer and blinder and dumber not to recognize that the enemy most
targetted by FDR was *GERMANY*, not Japan.
Post by w***@aol.com
How about you?
You're not doing a convincing job of selling people on the idea you were
alive then, much less aware of anything.

Tell me, don't recall the term "concentration camps" being used for these
people?
Post by w***@aol.com
This is.... simply...your belief that only the Japanese
were threats because of ....their loyalties to ancestral homelands
were more widespread and stronger than those of any other group of
Americans with dual citizenship.
No doubt about it. And they were also clustered along the Pacific
Again, you do a dishonest job of editting: he did NOT say they were threats
"because of ...their loyalties to ancestral homelands". He said

"your belief that only the Japanese
were threats because of WHAT IS YOUR ARGUABLY MISTAKEN BELIEF THAT
their loyalties to ancestral homelands", etc.

This is almost bad as your horrible misrepresentation of the Ringle memo of
a couple years ago.

Very dishonest. Typical of you, as such.
Post by w***@aol.com
The American sense of justice has always held that motive and personal
accountability do matter, that personal responsibility and culpability
are paramount, and that before the bar of justice all citizens are
equal.
Hurrah! Expressed like a true patriot.
No, just an American.
Post by w***@aol.com
I believe it's been pointed out that a large majority of them did NOT
have Japanese citizenship.
No, that was the minor children. On the contrary, it was pointed out
No, that was the majority.

On the contrary, you have been given references to this;

By the time of Pearl Harbor, roughly 70% of the nisei did not have dual
citizenship. This is from Japanese records, as presented by Edward K Strong.
Post by w***@aol.com
There was certainly more than presumption with the dual citizens.
Why?
Post by w***@aol.com
They would not have had Japanese citizenship without having loyalty
to the Emperor.
You don't know very much about Japan, do you, Mr Hopwood?
Post by w***@aol.com
You are confused about the difference between relocation
centers and DOJ internment camps the latter for enemy aliens
And you are confused about the similarity; they were locked up, under
armed guard, for no other reason than being of Japanese descent. They
were thrown into what were called, AT THE TIME (as I'm sure you vividely
remember, having pretended you were aware of what was going on) as "concentration
camps".

This did not happen to the Italian-Americans, nor the German-Americans.
Post by w***@aol.com
ISTM you've used exactly the opposite argument
in the past, that those in the DOJ camps got nothing while the
relocation camp people got $20,000.
Please. Concentrate. Try to get this right. The Japanese,
Yes; please.

There were NO incidents of espionage or sabatoge among the Japanese-American
community once the original arrests were made. Not one. Zero.

And this even though they (in your eyes) had some ill-defined "strong loyalty"
to an Emperor, and country most had never been to.
Post by w***@aol.com
decisions of guilt on FBI security charges. The Japanese
got an apology and $20,000 each solely because they
were Japanese.
Really?

'Cause Reagan, who SIGNED the apology (and unlike you was demonstrably there
"at the time") said they were locked up strictly because they were Japanese.
Signed a document to that effect.

George Bush, a veteran of the war against Japan stated
"In remembering, it is important to come to grips with the past. No
nation can fully understand itself or find its place in the world if
it does not look with clear eyes at all the glories and disgraces of
its past. We in the United States acknowledge such an injustice in our
history. The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry was a great
injustice, and it will never be repeated."
Post by w***@aol.com
The Germans and italians got zero,
nada, only because they were Germans and Italians.
Were's your outrage?
Well, no. This is wrong. As you yourself have claimed (unless there is more
than one person logging on as you, which would explain much), there was
apparently time to consider the German/Italian nationals and dual citizens
on an individual basis, but not enough time to consider
Post by w***@aol.com
"No tickee no washee" is not a proverb, it is a direct put down of the
early Chinese, who after the mines ran out and the railroads had
enough eastern workers turned to running restaurants and laundries
along the West Coast, two of the few occupations they could enter with
impunity.
Come on. How politically-correct can you get? Of course it's a
proverb, and
No, it really isn't. It's a racist put-down.

But it's interesting to see you defend your own putdowns of people, when you
have the thinnest of skins when it comes to any imaginary slight against
yourself.
Post by w***@aol.com
subject to interpretation depending on the context in which it is
used. It's
recognized as such by professional semanticists such as the award-
winning Wolfgang Mieder.
Well, no, he has stated that it has SINCE been generalized, though "at the
time" (you know, the time you want us all to believe you were alive), it
was very much a slur. He also pointed out that when it is used as part of a
repeated pattern (you know, like someone putting down a group of people
on the basis of their race), that it is racist. See "No Tickee, No Washee":
Subtleties of a Proverbial Slur, page 1 & 2.
Post by w***@aol.com
It's only considered an ethnic slur whenever and
however used by the "anti-bigot" bigots.
Oddly, yet again, your OWN reference disagrees with you.
Post by w***@aol.com
Perhaps you should take it a little easier on the "Holier than thou"
stuff.
Well, "holier than thou" isn't a high bar, to be sure.
Post by w***@aol.com
The attempt to cloak this with some semblance of legitimacy and
relevance is a bit breath-taking.
On the other hand, I'm truly shocked, shocked at the degree of
hypocrisy I'm seeing here.
A VERY thin skin for a supposed former veteran...

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-01-20 23:38:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0500,
What specifically had changed among the Nisei from
1915 to 1941 that suggested they were less loyal to the
US . . .?
The fact that in 1941 we were not only NOT allied with Japan.
we were at war with Japan.
My question was what changed "among the Nisei," not what changed in
international politics. There was evidence that before 1920 both
Issei and Nisei had shown their loyalty to the US by enlisting in the
National Guard. Just what changed that tells you they would not have
been equally loyal by 1941? There were still enlistees in the US
services at the time of Pearl Harbor, weren't there?
Post by w***@aol.com
..... you appear to see it as a reason not to afford them the
same legal standing as other groups if the US is at war with
their ancestral homeland.
The JAs had the same legal standing as anybody else.
You cite "a couple . . . filed lawsuits" as proof that they had the
same legal standing as other groups? That's a rather disingenuous
response in view of what was happening. Those suits were filed
because the JAs had, en masse, had their freedom curtailed by curfews
and restrictions on their free movement, precursors to the evacuation
order and their confinement in the camps.

The acts that led to the two suits you cite occurred before the
removal of the JAs from the West Coast; if by the "couple" of court
decisions you meant Hirabayashi and Hiramatsu, who protested the
evacuation order, the court decisions came long after the evacuation
had been accomplished. The courts could not undue the evacuation and
the detention until Endo won her habeas corpus suit.

So, yes, they had the right to file suits but you can't argue as if
they had all the rights of other citizens.
.
Post by w***@aol.com
We were not at war with "ethnocultural groups".
Don't play word games. The German and Italian nationals and dual
citizens were no more trustworthy than the JAs--except that the
reliance on the widely accepted stereotypes strengthened the sense of
danger from the Japanese.
Post by w***@aol.com
excerpts from the Supreme Court's Korematsu decision
"We cannot reject as unfounded that judgment of the
military authorities and of Congress that there were disloyal
[Japanese].

The fact that the court confessed it could not reject the judgment of
the authorities certainly does not amount to a conclusion that the
judgment was correct. In the long run too late to matter in the
court's rulings, it became clear that the government had actually
failed to provide the court with all the evidence in its possession.
Post by w***@aol.com
members of the group . . . retained loyalties to Japan
subsequent to the exclusion.
five thousand American[s] . . .citizens of Japanese ancestry refused to swear
unqualified allegiance
There has been a great deal of discussion of the number, motivation,
and loyalties of the five thousand. Those roughly five thousand could
have been tried and detained allowing the remaining 115,000 to be
released from the camps. It did not happen; the closest thing that
happened was Endo winning her habeas corpus claim, which eventually
led to closing out the program
Post by w***@aol.com
In the end, they were denied equal treatment before the law,
No they weren't. They got it. See the SC decision above. It
still stands to this day.
But its legal underpinnings have been cut from under it by the legal
and administrative actions in later proceedings, and equally by the
complete reversal of the American people's attitude toward Japanese
Americans. The decision may stand, but since it rests on a faulty
trial due to government prosecutors withholding evidence my money is
against it ever being used as a precedent.
Post by w***@aol.com
I was called to active duty in February of 1941 and didn't get discharged until October of
1945. How about you?
Our service records are irrelevant to these discussions and to the
evacuation and relocation itself.
Post by w***@aol.com
This is.... simply...your belief that only the Japanese
were threats because of ....their loyalties to ancestral homelands
were more widespread and stronger than those of any other group of
Americans with dual citizenship.
No doubt about it. And they were also clustered along the Pacific
coast,
a hot-bed of defense production and military activity and
where possible attack from Japan was expected to come from.
And your reading of the situation is firmly based on the stereotypes
held as truth by the anti-Japanese agitators on the West Coast.

To wit: They can never assimilate. They can't be trusted. They're
more loyal to their parents' homeland than to their own. They send
information to Japan from their fishing boats a few miles off shore
from Terminal Island. They're marking defense facilities by carving
arrows in their fields.
Post by w***@aol.com
The American sense of justice has always held that motive and personal
accountability do matter, that personal responsibility and culpability
are paramount, and that before the bar of justice all citizens are
equal.
Of course when the government
weighed the motive and personal accountability of those who held
citizenship
The government never objectively weighed the motives and loyalties of
individuals except the ones already identified and arrested prior to
the evacuation. The "loyalty oath" as it was conducted was so poorly
written and administered that the only effect it had was to arouse
fears by some Nisei if they answered question 28, which led some to
answer "no" or to refuse to respond to the questions. In later years
it seems widely agreed that loyalty oaths are essentially useless,
since they will motivate truly unloyal persons to lie to avoid
suspicion.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
...there was nothing wrong with the question designed for the
potential Army recruits.
There was certainly more than presumption with the dual citizens.
They would not have had Japanese citizenship without having loyalty
to the Emperor.
That was a long unnecessary explanation when you could have just said
the questionnaire for the draft-age Nisei males was the one in
question. The only question that was an issue was #28 on the
questionnaire for the draft-eligibles. Neither Issei nor Nisei could
honestly answer that question, as has already been discussed. Issei
would lose their Japanese citizenship if they swore loyalty to the
United States. The Nisei would implicitly be admitting a loyalty to
Japan which they did not feel or acknowledge, and for about 70% a
connection to Japan that even the Japanese government admitted did not
exist. Or is that ignored because the Japanese will lie when they
feel the need?

Question 27 was not a real issue for either Issei or Nisei.
Post by w***@aol.com
Number 28 on the WRA questionnaire, it was re-worded to this
And not for the Nisei males of draft age, the only group other than
the Issei to which it applied.

And remember that the final judicial decisions held that the Nisei who
answered "no" had done so under undue duress, leading to most of the
renunciations being set aside.
Post by w***@aol.com
Whoa! Do you really believe the WRA camp residents
got nothing from the those proceedings?
P.L.100-383
authorized payments to ONLY the Japanese enemy aliens
interned therein on bona fide charges. Didn't you now that?
I think you might want to re-read P.L. 100-393, which is titled
"Congress Apologies for the Relocation of Japanese-Americans in WWII"
and includes among its aims "apologize on behalf of the people of the
United States for the evacuation, relocation, and internment of such
citizens and permanent resident aliens" and "provide for a public
education fund to finance efforts to inform the public about the
internment of such individuals so as to prevent the recurrence of any
similar event" and "discourage the occurrence of similar injustices
and violations of civil liberties in the future".

Do you believe Congress intended to *prevent* the recurrence of
similar events such as the internment of enemy allies after individual
investigations?

Don't I remember you being upset in the past by the fact that the camp
residents got their $20,000 restitution payments?
Post by w***@aol.com
Many Europeans are less sensitive to race and racial epithets than we
Americans. Less race sensitivity seems good, less sensitivity to
epithets and slurs not so much.
It is well documented in media from European countries showing
acceptance of immigrants from all over the world and building them
into their economy and living peaceably among them. That would not be
happening if Europeans were as fixated on race and nationality as
Americans have been historically.
Post by w***@aol.com
After writing reams of protest against "stereotyping" here you go and
stereotype "many" Europeans for being "less sensitive to racial
epithets." Perhaps you should take it a little easier on the
"Holier than thou" stuff.
Perhaps you should learn what a stereotype is; you might find it
useful in your researches.
Post by w***@aol.com
On the other hand, I'm truly shocked, shocked at the degree of
hypocrisy
I'm seeing here.
Is this a case of "mirror, mirror"? :-)
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
w***@aol.com
2013-01-21 19:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0500,
What specifically had changed among the Nisei from
1915 to 1941 that suggested they were less loyal to the
US . . .?
The fact that in 1941 we were not only NOT
allied with Japan, we were at war with Japan.
My question was what changed "among the Nisei," not what
changed in international politics.....
My response still stands,. The international politics
was a governing factor in why they were loyal in
1915 and why they were not so loyal in 1941. In
1915 the U.S. was not far from being involved in
WW1 and allied with Japan. In 1941 we were at
war with Japan.
Post by Don Kirkman
There were still enlistees in the US services at the time
of Pearl Harbor, weren't there?
Only those drafted beginning in November of 1940.
The total number was just over 3,100. Except for a
small number who enlisted in the National Guard,
principally in Hawaii, the Army did not allow Nisei to
enlist prior to the draft.
[See "The draft--1940-1973" fn#2 "Nisei Linquists" Ch1"
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
The JAs had the same legal standing as anybody
else.
You cite "a couple . . . filed lawsuits" as proof that they
had the same legal standing as other groups? That's a
rather disingenuous....
Only if you consider the truth to be "disingenuous."
A couple filed lawsuits. So could any other Nisei so
inclined.
Post by Don Kirkman
.....The acts that led to the two suits you cite occurred
before the removal of the JAs from the West Coast;
They were filed as a result of EO9066, the order
which authorized the removal.
Post by Don Kirkman
if by the "couple" of court decisions you meant
Hirabayashi and Hiramatsu...
No. Not Hiramatsu. It was Korematsu. The suit which
resulted in the Supreme Court putting its stamp of
approval on the Evacucation.
Post by Don Kirkman
.....the court decisions came long after the evacuation
had been accomplished.
Most SC decisions do come long after the suits
are filed. Nothing different about that.
Post by Don Kirkman
The courts could not undue the evacuation and
the detention until Endo won her habeas corpus suit.
The Endo decision really didn't have much if any effect
when it was released. The decision was actually moot.
Endo had long before been given leave clearance but
wouldn't leave the relocation center until she was
allowed to return to California. Since Endo had already received her
clearance which she would not accept until
her case had been decided, she had a somewhat hollow victory.
Post by Don Kirkman
So, yes, they had the right to file suits but you can't
argue as if they had all the rights of other citizens.
I certainly do argue that when it came to filing law
suits of course they had the rights of other citizens.
They did not have the right to win those lawsuits
(and Hirabayashi and Korematsu did not win).
Nor does anyone else have that right.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
We were not at war with "ethnocultural groups".
...The German and Italian nationals and dual citizens
were no more trustworthy than the JAs--the reliance
on the widely ccepted stereotypes strengthened the
sense of danger from the Japanese.
That's just a matter of your opinion. Thankfully
those U.S. officials who ran WWII didn't agree
with you.
Post by Don Kirkman
[Japanese].
The fact that the court confessed it could not reject
the judgment of the authorities certainly does not
amount to a conclusion that the judgment was
correct.
You could say that about any SC decision. The
point is that they say it was Constitutional. That's
enough.
Post by Don Kirkman
In the long run too late to matter in the court's rulings,
it became clear that the government had actually
failed to provide the court with all the evidence in its
possession.
That was later the claim by those who got the
convictions "vacated" for Hirabyashi and Korematsu
and that's all it was. It was a political decision on the
part of the government not to defend the Korematsu
decision whereas the Hirabayashi "vacate" occurred
when the trial judge disallowed government evidence
on a legal technicality due to a late filing by the U.S.
attorney. Both cases did not change the SC wartime decisions. They
still stand.
Post by Don Kirkman
....Endo winning her habeas corpus claim, which
eventually led to closing out the program.
Nope. The exclusion had already been terminated
except on an individual basis prior to the Endo decision.
(See above).
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
....the SC decision...still stands to this day.
But its legal underpinnings have been cut from under
it by the legal and administrative actions in later
proceedings
No way. It was a political decision. No legal
underpinnings were disturbed in any way. Federal
district judges do not undercut Supreme Court
decisions. Only the SC can do that and it hasn't.
Post by Don Kirkman
...your reading of the situation is firmly based on the
stereotypes held as truth by the anti-Japanese
agitators on the West Coast.
And yours by an obsession with the alleged "racial stereotyping" of
enemy aliens when the issue was
how to provide for the national security of the U.S.
then at war with the Japanese Empire.
Post by Don Kirkman
The "loyalty oath" as it was conducted was so poorly
written and administered that the only effect it had was
to arouse fears by some Nisei if they answered question
28...
Fears that they might be drafted, yes. But you still
don't seem to have it straight that there were two
different loyalty oaths and that the one taken by the
aliens was adjusted to meet their complaint with the
result that a vast majority of them found it OK and
signed it.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
...there was nothing wrong with the question
designed for the potential Army recruits.
.... The only question that was an issue was #28 on the
questionnaire for the draft-eligibles. Neither Issei nor Nisei
could honestly answer that question,
None of the Issei were asked to answer #28 on the
questionnaire given to the draft-eligibles. FYI, the draft
didn't accept enemy aliens.
Post by Don Kirkman
.... Issei would lose their Japanese citizenship if they
swore loyalty to the United States.
How many times do I have to tell you that the question
28 for the Issei was changed to satisfy their objection
and it did. See what Iwrote just two paragraphs above.
Stop beating that dead horse.
Post by Don Kirkman
And remember that the final judicial decisions held that
the Nisei who answered "no" had done so under undue
duress, leading to most of the renunciations being set
aside.
There was no duress during the registration
process. The Army teams were very courteous.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
P.L.100-383 authorized payments to ONLY the
Japanese enemy aliens interned therein on bona
fide charges. Didn't you now that?
I think you might want to re-read P.L. 100-393, which
is titled "Congress Apologies for the Relocation of
Japanese-Americans in WWII"
No it isn't. PL100-393 was titled "Dire Emergency Supplemental
Appropriations Act, 1988. " I thought
your research to be on firmer ground than it apparently
is. PL 100-383 is the one you are groping for and its
title is "The Civil Liberties Act of 1988"
Post by Don Kirkman
and includes among its aims "apologize on behalf of the
people of the United States for the evacuation, relocation,
and internment of such citizens and permanent resident
aliens" and "provide for a public education fund to finance
efforts to inform the public about the internment of such
individuals so as to prevent the recurrence of any
similar event" and "discourage the occurrence of similar
injustices and violations of civil liberties in the future".
But you "forgot" to note that it says the purpose of the
Act is to:
(1)acknowledge the fundamental injustice of the
evacuation,relocation, and INTERNMENT of United
States citizens and permanent resident aliens of
JAPANESE ancestry during World War II;
(2) apologize on behalf of the people of the United
States for the evacuation, relocation, and
INTERNMENT of SUCH citizens and resident aliens;
(4) make restitution to those individuals of JAPANESE
ancestry who were INTERNED; [emphasis mine]
So, you as a professed "anti-racist" will note that
PL100-383 applies ONLY to persons of Japanese
ancestry and in a limited way to residents of the Alaskan Aleuts but
not to Germans and Italians who were
INTERNED with the Japanese under identical
conditions and for the same reasons in DOJ camps.
Could it get any more racist than that?
Post by Don Kirkman
Do you believe Congress intended to *prevent* the
recurrence of similar events such as the internment
of enemy allies after individual investigations?
I doubt it. If they did it would be in violation of the
existing Alien Enemy Act of 1798. More likely the
intent of Congress was to satisfy a large voting
block in an election year. Incidentally, some of the
top liberals in Congress didn't vote for PL100-383.
They were: Al Gore, Joe Biden, Ted Kennedy,
Post by Don Kirkman
Perhaps you should learn what a stereotype is; you
might find it useful in your researches.
It means: "A widely held but fixed and oversimplified
image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.Eg: "sexual and
racial stereotypes".
You criticize stereotyping when done to PJAs but think it's
OK to do it with Europeans. You are not at all consistent.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-23 05:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
My question was what changed "among the Nisei," not what
changed in international politics.....
My response still stands,. The international politics
was a governing factor in why they were loyal in
1915 and why they were not so loyal in 1941. In
Sorry, but we have only your repeated assertions that "they" were not
loyal.
Post by w***@aol.com
1915 the U.S. was not far from being involved in
Well, 2 years.
Post by w***@aol.com
WW1 and allied with Japan. In 1941 we were at
war with Japan.
And that was 27 years later, and this was a group born and raised in the US by
a group that had spent a long amount of time in the US.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
There were still enlistees in the US services at the time
of Pearl Harbor, weren't there?
Only those drafted beginning in November of 1940.
The total number was just over 3,100. Except for a
So, thousands, yes?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
else.
You cite "a couple . . . filed lawsuits" as proof that they
had the same legal standing as other groups? That's a
rather disingenuous....
Only if you consider the truth to be "disingenuous."
A couple filed lawsuits. So could any other Nisei so
inclined.
So you are ignorant of the fact that even foreign nationals can file
lawsuits against the US. If not, and you do in fact know this, then you
were indeed being "disengenuous" (or obfuscatory, more likely) when you
attempted to claim that the fact the nisei could file lawsuits meant they
had the same rights, etc.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
.....The acts that led to the two suits you cite occurred
before the removal of the JAs from the West Coast;
They were filed as a result of EO9066, the order
So, before the removal, yes.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
So, yes, they had the right to file suits but you can't
argue as if they had all the rights of other citizens.
I certainly do argue that when it came to filing law
suits of course they had the rights of other citizens.
Which is not your original assertion. Since you are back-tracking we'll
call the point settled, in Mr Kirkman's favor.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
...The German and Italian nationals and dual citizens
were no more trustworthy than the JAs--the reliance
on the widely ccepted stereotypes strengthened the
sense of danger from the Japanese.
That's just a matter of your opinion. Thankfully
Well, no, that's a matter of the opinion of the intelligence professionals
like, oh, Ringle or Hoover.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
it became clear that the government had actually
failed to provide the court with all the evidence in its
possession.
That was later the claim by those who got the
convictions "vacated" for Hirabyashi and Korematsu
Well, that means the court found reason to negate the convictions.
Post by w***@aol.com
and that's all it was. It was a political decision on the
As it was a political desicion to lock up all the "Japanese".
Post by w***@aol.com
part of the government not to defend the Korematsu
decision whereas the Hirabayashi "vacate" occurred
when the trial judge disallowed government evidence
on a legal technicality due to a late filing by the U.S.
attorney.
So, if you disagree, the proceedings were based on "technicalities" or
"political decisions".
Post by w***@aol.com
Both cases did not change the SC wartime decisions. They
still stand.
And only cost the US an apology and millions of dollars in reparations, not
to mention the wartime costs of implementing this nonsense.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
But its legal underpinnings have been cut from under
it by the legal and administrative actions in later
proceedings
No way. It was a political decision. No legal
Well, you know, that's not how the courts generally work. Once these
things are vacated, it becomes harder to argue they were legal. Have
you actually met any lawyers?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
...your reading of the situation is firmly based on the
stereotypes held as truth by the anti-Japanese
agitators on the West Coast.
And yours by an obsession with the alleged "racial stereotyping" of
enemy aliens when the issue was
Sorry, no, YOU are concerned with actual racial stereotyping, by
insisting that the non-white descendents of an Axis power were
untrustworthy, even if American, and the white descendents were much
more reliable, even if non-American.
Post by w***@aol.com
how to provide for the national security of the U.S.
then at war with the Japanese Empire.
Actually, we were also at war with Italy and Germany as well; it was in
all the papers.
Post by w***@aol.com
Fears that they might be drafted, yes. But you still
Actually, some had already been; what happened to them, Mr Hopwood?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
And remember that the final judicial decisions held that
the Nisei who answered "no" had done so under undue
duress, leading to most of the renunciations being set
aside.
There was no duress during the registration process.
Right; what possible duress could be applied in jails.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
P.L.100-383 authorized payments to ONLY the
Japanese enemy aliens interned therein on bona
fide charges. Didn't you now that?
I think you might want to re-read P.L. 100-393, which
is titled "Congress Apologies for the Relocation of
Japanese-Americans in WWII"
No it isn't. PL100-393 was titled "Dire Emergency Supplemental
Appropriations Act, 1988. " I thought
your research to be on firmer ground than it apparently
If the best you can do is jump all over an obvious typo, you should save
your efforts. In the above, he simply hit a "9" instead of an "8"
Post by w***@aol.com
is. PL 100-383 is the one you are groping for and its
title is "The Civil Liberties Act of 1988"
http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/archive/resources/documents/ch30_06.htm

"Public Law 100-383 (1988) - Congress Apologies for the Relocation of
Japanese-Americans in WWII"
Post by w***@aol.com
But you "forgot" to note that it says the purpose of the
(1)acknowledge the fundamental injustice of the
evacuation,relocation, and INTERNMENT of United
States citizens and permanent resident aliens of
JAPANESE ancestry during World War II;
(2) apologize on behalf of the people of the United
States for the evacuation, relocation, and
INTERNMENT of SUCH citizens and resident aliens;
(4) make restitution to those individuals of JAPANESE
ancestry who were INTERNED; [emphasis mine]
Not sure why you are so insistent on showing that the word "INTERNMENT"
apparently doesn't mean what you claimed it meant. It seems they (the
government) seem to believe the nisei were INTERNED, despite your
insistance otherwise.
Post by w***@aol.com
ancestry and in a limited way to residents of the Alaskan Aleuts but
not to Germans and Italians who were
INTERNED with the Japanese under identical
conditions and for the same reasons in DOJ camps.
Wait; didn't you CLAIM the "Germans" and "Italians" were sorted through
INDIVIDUALLY? Or are there numerous incarnations of "Hopwood" posting
under that name?

You have repeatedly claimed that the US had the time to do that, but
didn't have the time to do that for the much smaller number of "Japanese".

So if the members of one group were treated on the basis of their race,
and the members of the other group was treated as individuals, how were
the cases "indentical"?
Post by w***@aol.com
Could it get any more racist than that?
Well, yes, it could have been almost anything you post.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Do you believe Congress intended to *prevent* the
recurrence of similar events such as the internment
of enemy allies after individual investigations?
I doubt it.
Then you aren't paying attention: they are CLEARLY apologizing for their
behavior AND with
"Makes a refusal to accept payment irrevocable. Declares that acceptance
of payment shall be in full satisfaction of all related claims against
the United States"
saying this is payment in full.
Post by w***@aol.com
existing Alien Enemy Act of 1798. More likely the
Sorry, but that doesn't apply to US citizens, Mr Hopwood. Do you not know
what constitutes an "Enemy Alien"?
Post by w***@aol.com
block in an election year. Incidentally, some of the
top liberals in Congress didn't vote for PL100-383.
They were: Al Gore, Joe Biden, Ted Kennedy,
Excellent point; I much prefer the conservative take on this
"In remembering, it is important to come to grips with the past. No
nation can fully understand itself or find its place in the world if
it does not look with clear eyes at all the glories and disgraces of
its past. We in the United States acknowledge such an injustice in our
history. The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry was a great
injustice, and it will never be repeated."

Or Reagan's
"We gather here today to right a grave wrong,"
or
"No payment can make up for those lost years," Reagan said in signing the
measure, which cleared the House last week by a vote of 257 to 156 and
the Senate by voice vote. "So what is important in this bill has less
to do with property than with honor, for here, we admit a wrong. Here
we reaffirm our commitment as a nation to equal justice under the law."

I agree, so naturally, I disagree with liberals like you and the others you
cite.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Perhaps you should learn what a stereotype is; you
might find it useful in your researches.
It means: "A widely held but fixed and oversimplified
image or idea of a particular type of person or thing
Like " the existence of a few non-white untrustworthy members of a group
means that entire group is untrustworthy, but the existence of a few white
untrustworthy in a similar group in no way means there were any more
untrustworthy members in their group".

Yeah, that's pretty racist.

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-01-25 21:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0500,
My question was what changed "among the Nisei," not what
changed in international politics.....
My response still stands,.
Your response is still in error. You have no proof that they were any
more or less loyal by 1941, because it seems nobody really tried to
find out. The assumption from the beginning was that they were not
loyal--ignoring both the very early show of loyalty and the not
inconsiderable number of academic sociological studies of their
acculturation and their activities showing their culture was
continually becoming more Americanized as the numbers of Nisei
increased and as they grew to adulthood.

The bulk of the military and political documents were biased by the
same stereotypes that you continue to rely on in your arguments here.
The academic studies immediately after the war added to what some
researchers had been pointing out about the loyalty and assimilation
of particularly the Nisei even before Pearl Harbor
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
The JAs had the same legal standing as anybody
else.
Only if you consider the truth to be "disingenuous."
A couple filed lawsuits. So could any other Nisei so
inclined.
Surely you don't consider the ability to file lawsuits to be the full
range of civil liberties all Americans are entitled to, do you?
Post by w***@aol.com
No. Not Hiramatsu.
My mistyping.

It was Korematsu.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
...The German and Italian nationals and dual citizens
were no more trustworthy than the JAs--the reliance
on the widely accepted stereotypes strengthened the
sense of danger from the Japanese.
That's just a matter of your opinion. Thankfully
those U.S. officials who ran WWII didn't agree
with you.
No, they didn't, because they were relying on the 40+ years of
deliberate reinforcement of the stereotypes by anti-Japanese activity
on all levels of California leadership, as I mention above.
Post by w***@aol.com
when the trial judge disallowed government evidence
on a legal technicality due to a late filing by the U.S.
attorney. Both cases did not change the SC wartime decisions. They
still stand.
You seem to believe that technical errors in trials of Constitutional
importance should not be grounds for caution in deciding the issues
and using the cases as precedents in later similar cases.

I've told you several times that the decisions still stand, so you can
discontinue that line of argument. What I have said before and
pointed out at length in a part you cut out:

[Start]
But its legal underpinnings have been cut from under it by the legal
and administrative actions in later proceedings, and equally by the
complete reversal of the American people's attitude toward Japanese
Americans. The decision may stand, but since it rests on a faulty
trial due to government prosecutors withholding evidence my money is
against it ever being used as a precedent.
[End]
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
....the SC decision...still stands to this day.
Re-read what I actually wrote. I copied it for your convenience.
Post by w***@aol.com
And yours by an obsession with the alleged "racial stereotyping" of
enemy aliens when the issue was
how to provide for the national security of the U.S.
then at war with the Japanese Empire.
Actually I'm primarily "obsessed" ;-) by the racial stereotyping of US
citizens, including the Nisei. I'd like to think that you value
American citizenship enough to want to preserve it for every American.
Post by w***@aol.com
Fears that they might be drafted, yes.
That was never the fear they expressed in the loyalty question
instance. They clearly pointed out that the question implied that they
were harboring a loyalty to Japan, a loyalty which they denied having.
A University of Denver report has some details about the Amache RC,
which apparently had around 7000 residents. It's a bit of evidence
for how the Nisei residents actually felt.

Secretary of War Stimson announced on January 28, 1943, that Nisei men
could volunteer for military service; at that time Nisei were still
classified by selective service as "undesirable aliens". A total of
about 300 enlisted from Amache. As of January 11, 1944, a year later,
Nisei men were made eligible for the draft. The first call was for 53
men from Amache; 48 reported for induction but 5 refused - 2 of those
reported later for induction and the other three were imprisoned, a
total less than 6% of those called refusing to be inducted..
http://www.du.edu/behindbarbedwire/nisei_and_the_army.html
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
.... The only question that was an issue was #28 on the
questionnaire for the draft-eligibles. Neither Issei nor Nisei
could honestly answer that question,
[Start]
Beginning in February 1943 the WRA and the War Department jointly
began registering all adults in the internment camps. Both used the
same form entitled "Application for Leave Clearance." The War
Department wished to register all male citizens of draft age even
though Japanese-Americans were not eligible to be drafted until
January 1944. The WRA wanted a list of adults in order to relocate the
Japanese more quickly back into American society. The registration
further served the military by receiving applications from volunteers
to serve in an all Japanese-American combat team.
The main function of the questionnaire was to measure the loyalty of
the Japanese. Two questions were designed to achieve this goal:

Question 27: Are you willing to serve in the armed forces of the
United States on combat duty, wherever ordered?

Question 28: Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United
States of America and faithfully defend the United States from any and
all attacks by foreign and domestic forces, and forswear any form of
allegiance or disobedience to the Japanese Emperor, or any other
foreign government, power, or organization (Williams and Coleman 1992:
63)?

The questions created many uncertainties for the evacuees. Answering
"yes" to Question 28, for the Issei, would leave the Issei without a
country. The Nisei were fearful of answering "yes" to Question 28 for
it might imply they had previously been loyal to the Emperor of Japan.
Other respondents answered "no" to both questions as a means of
protest. These evacuees became known as "No-No Boys." Due to the
confusion over Question 28 it was eventually changed for the Issei to
be read as follows:

Will you swear to abide by the laws of the United States and to take
no action which would in anyway interfere with the war effort of the
United States (Williams and Coleman 1992: 63)?
[End]
http://www.du.edu/behindbarbedwire/loyalty_questions.html
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
And remember that the final judicial decisions held that
the Nisei who answered "no" had done so under undue
duress, leading to most of the renunciations being set
aside.
There was no duress during the registration
process. The Army teams were very courteous.
I'm sure they were. Duress is not about politeness. Incarceration is
duress. Discriminatory questions or false claims are duress.
Conditions like lack of privacy, crowding, or isolation can be duress.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
I think you might want to re-read P.L. 100-393, which
is titled "Congress Apologies for the Relocation of
Japanese-Americans in WWII"
No it isn't. PL100-393 w
Typos happen.
Post by w***@aol.com
PL 100-383 is the one you are groping for and its
title is "The Civil Liberties Act of 1988"
Actually that's the short title; the formal title is "UNITED STATES
CITIZENS OF JAPANESE ANCESTRY AND RESIDENT JAPANESE ALIENS"
Post by w***@aol.com
But you "forgot" to note that it says the purpose of the
But you apparently failed to read who was eligible for that redress.

§1989b 7. Definitions

For the purposes of this title [sections 1989b to 1989b 9 of this
Appendix]

(1) the term evacuation, relocation, and internment period means that
period beginning on December 7, 1941, and ending on June 30, 1946;

(2) the term eligible individual means any individual of Japanese
ancestry, or the spouse or a parent of an individual of Japanese
ancestry, who is living on the date of the enactment of this Act [Aug.
10, 1988] and who, during the evacuation, relocation, and internment
period

(A) was a United States citizen or a permanent resident alien; and

(B)(i) was confined, held in custody, relocated, or otherwise deprived
of liberty or property as a result of

(I) Executive Order Numbered 9066, dated February 19, 1942;

(II) the Act entitled An Act to provide a penalty for violation of
restrictions or orders with respect to persons entering, remaining in,
leaving, or committing any act in military areas or zones, approved
March 21, 1942 (56 Stat. 173); or

(III) any other Executive order, Presidential proclamation, law of the
United States, directive of the Armed Forces of the United States, or
other action taken by or on behalf of the United States or its agents,
representatives, officers, or employees, respecting the evacuation,
relocation, or internment of individuals solely on the basis of
Japanese ancestry; or

(ii) was enrolled on the records of the United States Government
during the period beginning on December 7, 1941, and ending on June
30, 1946, as being in a prohibited military zone;

except that the term eligible individual does not include any
individual who, during the period beginning on December 7, 1941, and
ending on September 2, 1945, relocated to a country while the United
States was at war with that country;

(3) the term permanent resident alien means an alien lawfully admitted
into the United States for permanent residence;
(4)
(5)

So PL 100-383 (383) doesn't seem to cover those who were interned as a
result of FBI or other investigations. Section B III specifies that
the restitution applies only to relocation or internment of
"individuals solely on the basis of Japanese ancestry"; That seems
appropriate because only the Japanese and the Aleuts had significant
property or asset losses, one because of their relocation based on
their ethnicity and the other by the vicissitudes of war. So the
Japanese, Germans, and Italians who were interned after DOJ seem to
have been excluded from eligibility.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Perhaps you should learn what a stereotype is; you
might find it useful in your researches.
Like many researchers, I defined how I was using it. Arnold Rose
wrote that it is "specific traditions that involve specific false
beliefs," That's simple and fairly good.

The psychologist Gordon Allport defined a stereotype as ". . . an
exaggerated belief associated with a category. The function is to
justify (rationalize) our conduct in relation to that category."
That's better, because stereotypes always involve exaggeration and are
often used for self-justification.

My definition for this research project was ". . . an exaggerated
belief about a category; the stereotype is a part of a (relatively)
rigid structure of beliefs and attitudes which tend to determine
perception and behavior in relation to that category."
Post by w***@aol.com
It means: "A widely held but fixed and oversimplified
image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.Eg: "sexual and
racial stereotypes".
I prefer mine to either of the others, and to yours, since stereotypes
normally do influence perception and behavior.
Post by w***@aol.com
You criticize stereotyping when done to PJAs but think it's
OK to do it with Europeans. You are not at all consistent.
Your reading skills seem to be failing you. Try reading again what I
wrote: "Many Europeans are less sensitive to race and racial epithets
than we Americans. ***Less race sensitivity seems good+**, less
sensitivity to epithets and slurs not so much."

I had written in an earlier message that "It is well documented in
media from European countries showing acceptance of immigrants from
all over the world and building them into their economy and living
peaceably among them. That would not be happening if Europeans were
as fixated on race and nationality as Americans have been
historically."
Post by w***@aol.com
After writing reams of protest against "stereotyping" here you go and
stereotype "many" Europeans for being "less sensitive to racial
epithets."
Perhaps you should take it a little easier on the "Holier than thou"
stuff.
The attempt to cloak this with some semblance of legitimacy and
relevance is a bit breath-taking.
On the other hand, I'm truly shocked, shocked at the degree of
hypocrisy I'm seeing here.
Feel free to apologize for implying I am racist and a hypocrite.

I want to clarify one other point. On January 14 in this thread you
wrote "We are not discussing babies in their parents' arms. Most of
the dual citizens were well over 18 years of age and old enough to
make up their own minds about whether they wanted to retain
citizenship in the Empire of Japan. They knew what was going on in
the world and about the strained relations between the U,S. and
Japan before PH."

Shortly after July 17, 1998, you wrote
"Of that 70,000 Nisei (U.S.citizens) about 2/3rds were minor children.
. . "

And on July 27, 1998 you wrote:
"There has been much emotional hype on this thread in recent days with
regard to the WWII evacuation/relocation of Japanese nationals and
Japanese-Americans (most of whom were minor children at the time)"

What led you to change your mind?
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-26 00:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
That's just a matter of your opinion. Thankfully
those U.S. officials who ran WWII didn't agree
with you.
No, they didn't, because they were relying on the 40+ years of
deliberate reinforcement of the stereotypes by anti-Japanese activity
on all levels of California leadership, as I mention above.
And they ignored the recommendations of people who actually examined the issue.
Hoover thought the whole thing was nonsense, and implied the military and
political forces behind the incarceration were reacting hysterically, and
Ringle felt the nisei (with some exceptions, which he identified) were
Americans, full stop. In fact, he wrote

(h) That, in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been magnified
out of its true proportion, largely because of the physical
characteristics of the people; that it is no more serious that the
problems of the German, Italian, and Communistic portions of the
United States population, and, finally that it should be handled
on the basis of the individual, regardless of citizenship, and not
on a racial basis.


I have a full copy of the memo. Rather more informative than Mr Hopwood's
"creatively editted" version of a couple years back.

Mike
w***@aol.com
2013-01-27 06:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0500,
My question was what changed "among the Nisei," not what
changed in international politics.....
My response still stands,.
.....You have no proof that they were any
more or less loyal by 1941,
Nor do you. But I'll take the Supreme Court at its
deliberated word which was:
"That there were members of the group who
retained loyalties to Japan has been confirmed..."
[Korematsu decision 1944].
....academic studies immediately after the war added to what some
researchers had been pointing out about the loyalty and assimilation
of particularly the Nisei even before Pearl Harbor
Some assimilated. Some did not. Some who assimilated
but were still loyal to Japan. Some 7,000 Nisei even
served in the Armed forces of Japan and fought against
the U.S.. Other Nisei served as POW guards and beat
and tortured American prisoners of rhe Japanese. The
historical records are loaded with such examples of
Nisei loyalty to Japan.
As for academics, certainly Professor John J.
Stephan, author of "Hawaii under the Rising Sun," was
one of the more balanced school. So was Page Smith,
author of the 8-volume "A Peoples History of the United
States" and "Democracy on Trial." Stephan points out
that the "stereotyping" on PJAs was a two-way street.
There were some who believed that all Nisei were of
questionable loyalty to the U.S, whereas others were
stressed their belief in "...the 100% American character
of Japanese-Americans." I would include you, Mr. Kirkman,
as a member of the latter stereotypical group.
Surely you don't consider the ability to file lawsuits to be the full
range of civil liberties all Americans are entitled to, do you?
You claimed that the JAs didn't have "legal standing."
when of course they did or could not have filed law suits
challenging what they perceived to be a violation of
their civil liberties in wartime. They lost their cases.
You also ignore the fact that almost every American
cirtizen lost some kind of his "civil rights" in WWII. What
about the draftees? Don't you think they lost any civil
liberties when drafted into military service?
You seem to believe that technical errors in trials of Constitutional
importance should not be grounds for caution in deciding the issues
and using the cases as precedents in later similar cases.
Of course technicalities have an affect on precedents.
Happens all the time. But it does not help the intellectual
foundation of a case in wich a plaintiff wins only because of
a legal technicality. Such a case is not decided on its merits
or on the evicence, but on some arcane legal rule enforced
by the whim of a trial judge, often a political appointee.
.... What I have said before and pointed out at length in a part you cut
out: ...But its legal underpinnings have been cut from under it by
the legal and administrative actions in later proceedings..
I doubt that. Had these SC cases, or others similar to them,
ever come up again before the SC (which they did not) the
so-called "coram nobis" set-asides of the wartime convictions
of Korematsu and Hirabayashi (4 decades later) would have
had no legal "underpinnings" whatsover and would have been
ignored.
Actually I'm primarily "obsessed" ;) by the racial stereotyping of US
citizens, including the Nisei. I'd like to think that you value
American citizenship enough to want to preserve it for every American.
You paint with a very broad brush. What you appear
to be saying is that anyone holding U.S. citizenship,
whether by chance or design, is automatically and
indisputably a truly good citizen and one auto-endowed
with a sense of loyalty to his country that surpasses any
and all other attachments, even attachments to enemy
countries in time of war, and that he or she should never
under any circumstances have been suspected of any
disloyal activities at any time regardless of whatever
evidence thereof of the contrary.
Secretary of War Stimson announced on January 28, 1943, that Nisei men
could volunteer for military service; at that time Nisei were still
classified by selective service as "undesirable aliens".
To be accurate, their classification was "not acceptable," not
"undeskrable." They were placed in Classification IV-C being
not acceptable because of "nationality or ancestry,"
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
.... The only question that was an issue was #28 on the
questionnaire for the draft-eligibles. Neither Issei nor Nisei
could honestly answer that question,
Beginning in February 1943 the WRA and the War Department jointly
began registering all adults in the internment camps. Both used the
same form entitled "Application for Leave Clearance."
No they didn't. You keep refusing to accept the fact
that there were two separate forms used as questionnaires.
The one you quote above was the title of only the WRA
questionnaire and was on Form 126Rev. The questionnaire
for the potential Army recruits was DSS Form 304A. It was
a different questionaire with a differnt title: "Statement of United
States Citizens of Japanese Ancestry." See Vol.2 Chapter 14 of
the following National Park Service publication at:
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/manz/hrs.htm
The main function of the questionnaire was to measure the loyalty of
Question 27: Are you willing to serve in the armed forces of the
United States on combat duty, wherever ordered?
That was only asked of the potential recruits on the ARMY
questionairre Form DSS 304A. Quesion 27 on the WRA
form was: "If the opportunity presents itself and you are found
qualified, would you be to volunteer for the nurse corps or
the WAAC?"
Question 28: Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United
States of America and faithfully defend the United States from any and
all attacks by foreign and domestic forces, and forswear any form of
allegiance or disobedience to the Japanese Emperor, or any other
63)?
That question only appeared on the ARMY questionaire
Form DSS 304A.
Question 28 on the WRA Form was different.
As originally worded it read: "Will you swear unqualified
allegiance to the United States of America and forswear
any form of allegiance or obedience to the Japanese
emperor or any other foreign government, power, or
organization?"
Subsequently, after aliens protested the wording of
Number 28 on the WRA questionnaire, it was re-worded to this
revised version for all aliens (but not female citizens): "Will you
swear to abide by the laws of the United States and to take no
action which would in any way interfere with the war effort of the
United States?"
The revision made the aliens happy so they signed it
by an overwhelming majority.
...... The Nisei were fearful of answering "yes" to Question 28 for
it might imply they had previously been loyal to the Emperor of Japan.
That was the usual hype put out by the revisionists and it
may have applied to some. On the other hand, who knows
how many wanted an excuse not to serve in the Army at all?
After all, there were out of some 20,000 Nisei males of draft
age in the relocation camps, less than 1500 who volunteered
to serve. That comes to under 8% of those eligible. No
particular grand gesture of loyalty.
I would think that one as sensitive to stereotyping
as you profess to be would hesitate to stereotype all the
Nisei as having been chomping at the bit to show loyalty
to the good old USA by joining the army, but because
they were ALL so "shocked and afraid" at being asked if they
would agree to give up any possible prior loyalties they may
have had to the Emperor (particulsrly when many of them
were already Japanee citizens) that they considered the
question an insult to their integrity. Sounds a little dubious
to me.
...(Williams and Coleman 1992: 63)?
http://www.du.edu/behindbarbedwire/loyalty_questions.html
Your source just above has got numerous errors insofar
as the titles of the loyalty forms and who got which
type of oath to sign, etc. That's apparently where you are
getting your bad information about the registration, the
questionnaire forms and and who swore what to the
loyalty oaths. Better use my NPS link further above as it's
an official government link, not the half-a..d academic link
you used.
Post by w***@aol.com
PL 100-383 is the one you are groping for ...
But you apparently failed to read who was eligible for that
redress.
(1) the term evacuation, relocation, and internment period means that
period beginning on December 7, 1941, and ending on June 30, 1946;
(2) the term eligible individual means any individual of Japanese
ancestry, or the spouse or a parent of an individual of Japanese
ancestry, who is living on the date of the enactment of this Act [Aug.
10, 1988] and who, during the evacuation, relocation, and internment
period
And you don't think all enemy aliens who were held in DOJ
internment camps were "interned?" Here is a history lesson
for you. I think you need it:
Germans, Italians, and other European Axis
enemy aliens were held in DOJ camps along with Japanese.
But P.L.100-383 specifies that only the JAPANESE get the
$20,000 each along with an apology. And they got both. For
what? For being arrested on FBI charges in accordance with
the Enemy Alien Act of 1798. But there's more. Only the
Japanese qualified for the largesse. Why? Only because they
were Japanese. Some families got very well off on this racist
give-away. Japanese father, mother, and all the children who
went to the DOJ camps each got $20,000. WWII really paid off
for those enemies of the United States.
Because of the openly racist foundations of PL
100-383, a lawsuit was filed by a German-American, Arthur
Jacobs, (who served as a Major in he USAF) challenging the
Constitutionality of the law on the basis that he too was
interned as a boy with his German alien parents along
with Japanese aliens and their American-born children in
a DOJ camp in Crystal City, Texas, but since only persons
of JAPANESE ancestry got paid under PL 100-383 he wanted
to know why he and others similarly situated with the
Japanese bot left out. His suit was delayed for years
in the Federal Courts until finally blasted out by a Writ
of Mandamus issued by a panel on the U.S.Court of
Appeals, D.C.Circuit consisting of judges Ruth Bader
Ginsberg and Clarence Thomas (both now SC Justices.)
The writ ordered the trial judge to move the case forward
as the issue pending was one of "Constitutional"
dimensions.
The case later worked its way to the Supreme
Court on a Writ of Certiorari asking that the High Court
consider the case but it was turned down along with the
some 95% of cases appealed to the High Court each year
which that Court does not select. Because pf case loads
only about 5% of the cases to reach that Court every yaar
are ever accepted for hearing.
Ironically the words carved in stone over the
entrance to the Supreme read: "Equal Justice Under Law."

(To reduce quoted material, I am deleting your long
list of eligibility requirements for payment of the $20,000
under PL 100-383 except for (iii) which is the pertinent one
under which such payment went ONLY to persons of
Japanese ancestry)
(III) any other Executive order, Presidential proclamation, law of the
United States, directive of the Armed Forces of the United States, or
other action taken by or on behalf of the United States or its agents,
representatives, officers, or employees, respecting the evacuation,
relocation, or INTERNMENT (my emphasis) of individuals solely on
the basis of Japanese ancestry;
So PL 100-383 (383) doesn't seem to cover those who were
interned as a result of FBI or other investigations. Section B III
specifies that the restitution applies only to relocation or internment of
"individuals solely on the basis of Japanese ancestry";
Well, then, since you don't think P.L.100-383 should apply
to those Japanese who were "interned" in DOJ camps,
why did they get paid? The Japanese got paid because
number (III) above was interpreted to cover all DOJ internees
of Japanese ancestry regardless of where and why they
were interned. So subersive enemy aliens of Japanese
ancestry are rewarded for being disloyal to the U.S. It was a
"racist" law and I'm curious to see how you try to squirm your
way around that reality.
... appropriate because only the Japanese and the Aleuts had significant
property or asset losses, one because of their relocation based on
their ethnicity and the other by the vicissitudes of war. So the
Japanese, Germans, and Italians who were interned after DOJ seem to
have been excluded from eligibility.
Not so good. Try squirming again. You can't deny
that the the European internees were clearly excluded
because of their race. All the enemy alien internees in
the DOJ internment camps were put there on FBI charges
for some type of subversive activity which was clearly
excused only for persons of Japanese ancestry under the
provisions of your (iii) paragraph above.
Post by w***@aol.com
Perhaps you should take it a little easier on the
"Holier than thou" stuff.....I'm truly shocked, shocked
at the degree of hypocrisy I'm seeing here.
Feel free to apologize for implying I am racist and a hypocrite.
No personal offense meant. Any such inference you perceive was
simply benign. You are not being "festerized."
I want to clarify one other point. On January 14 in this thread you
wrote "We are not discussing babies in their parents' arms. Most of
the dual citizens were well over 18 years of age and old enough to
make up their own minds about whether they wanted to retain
citizenship in the Empire of Japan. They knew what was going on in
the world and about the strained relations between the U,S. and
Japan before PH."
"Of that 70,000 Nisei (U.S.citizens) about 2/3rds were minor children.
. . "
"There has been much emotional hype on this thread in recent days with
regard to the WWII evacuation/relocation of Japanese nationals and
Japanese-Americans (most of whom were minor children at the time)"
What led you to change your mind?
I'm flattered that you hang on my every word, but where
do you see any change of mind? Read what I wrote again.
In the first para directly above I referred to "dual citizens"
most of whom were over 18. Of the 71,531 Nisei who
were evacuated as/of January 1, 1943, there were 43.507
under the age of 21 (about 2/3rds) which was the dividing
line between adults and minors at the time. There were
some dual citizens in the 18-20 bracket who were minors but
most dual citizens were in the over 21 bracket which
contained approx 28,000 or close to 1/3 of the evacuated
Nisei. Bottom line: Most of the dual citizens were in the over
18 age range. Most of the evacuated Nisei evacuated were
minors. There is no contradiction. You just interpreted
wrong.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-27 19:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
.....You have no proof that they were any
more or less loyal by 1941,
Nor do you.
So, guilty until proven innocent.

Which side were you on in WWII, again? It's not clear at this point.
Post by w***@aol.com
But I'll take the Supreme Court at its
"That there were members of the group who
retained loyalties to Japan has been confirmed..."
[Korematsu decision 1944].
Well, that's likely why those members were rounded up in 1941, don't you
think?
Post by w***@aol.com
Some assimilated. Some did not.
All were locked up.
Post by w***@aol.com
As for academics, certainly Professor John J.
Stephan, author of "Hawaii under the Rising Sun," was
one of the more balanced school.
IN other words, you agree with everything you presented, no matter how
you mangle the quotes.
Post by w***@aol.com
author of the 8-volume "A Peoples History of the United
States" and "Democracy on Trial." Stephan points out
that the "stereotyping" on PJAs was a two-way street.
There were some who believed that all Nisei were of
questionable loyalty to the U.S, whereas others were
stressed their belief in "...the 100% American character
of Japanese-Americans." I would include you, Mr. Kirkman,
as a member of the latter stereotypical group.
Uh, you are using the terms "two-way street"incorrectly. To use that
term you would need to show that the nisei were 'stereotyping" the non
Japanese-descendents of the US.

Too, you are deliberately (or foolishly) misrepresenting Mr Kirkman's
stance; he has agreed that there were those of Japanese descent who were
not necessarily loyal to the US. The question is "why were all the others
rounded up as well."

Very dishonest, again, Mr Hopwood.
Post by w***@aol.com
Surely you don't consider the ability to file lawsuits to be the full
range of civil liberties all Americans are entitled to, do you?
You claimed that the JAs didn't have "legal standing."
No, he claimed they did not have the same rights at the rest of the US
citizens of the time.
Post by w***@aol.com
You seem to believe that technical errors in trials of Constitutional
importance should not be grounds for caution in deciding the issues
and using the cases as precedents in later similar cases.
Of course technicalities have an affect on precedents.
Good; progess, of sorts.
Post by w***@aol.com
Actually I'm primarily "obsessed" ;) by the racial stereotyping of US
citizens, including the Nisei. I'd like to think that you value
American citizenship enough to want to preserve it for every American.
You paint with a very broad brush. What you appear
to be saying is that anyone holding U.S. citizenship,
whether by chance or design, is automatically and
indisputably a truly good citizen
You seem to be learning-disabled; what he has said and implied throughout
these discussions is that those who hold US citizenship, whether
by choise (naturalization) or chance (like being born here) is entitbled to
the full protections of the US constitution.
Post by w***@aol.com
...... The Nisei were fearful of answering "yes" to Question 28 for
it might imply they had previously been loyal to the Emperor of Japan.
That was the usual hype put out by the revisionists and it
may have applied to some.
Well, you weren't there, but you claim to speak for them, even if they claim
otherwise. In fact, some of those who WERE there claimed that was a reason for
answering "no". Are people there "at the time" revisionists, Mr Hopwood?

No, that's usually a term used for people, like yourself, who wish to
revise the accepted view of history.
Post by w***@aol.com
I would think that one as sensitive to stereotyping
as you profess to be would hesitate to stereotype all the
Nisei as having been chomping at the bit to show loyalty
He didn't.

You're being dishonest again.
Post by w***@aol.com
And you don't think all enemy aliens who were held in DOJ
internment camps were "interned?" Here is a history lesson
Tell us again how Ringle's memo warned that none of the Japanese
could be trusted, Mr Hopwood... before we take your "history lessons"
seriously.
Post by w***@aol.com
Germans, Italians, and other European Axis
enemy aliens were held in DOJ camps along with Japanese.
But P.L.100-383 specifies that only the JAPANESE get the
$20,000 each along with an apology. And they got both. For
what? For being arrested on FBI charges in accordance with
the Enemy Alien Act of 1798.
Nope. The Japanese were locked up for being of Japanese descent.

Those others, according to you, were locked up AFTER having their
cases examined on an individual basis.

Or do you now disagree with that?
Post by w***@aol.com
So PL 100-383 (383) doesn't seem to cover those who were
interned as a result of FBI or other investigations. Section B III
specifies that the restitution applies only to relocation or internment of
"individuals solely on the basis of Japanese ancestry";
Well, then, since you don't think P.L.100-383 should apply
to those Japanese who were "interned" in DOJ camps,
The bill states that all were interned, doesn't it?
Post by w***@aol.com
... appropriate because only the Japanese and the Aleuts had significant
property or asset losses, one because of their relocation based on
their ethnicity and the other by the vicissitudes of war. So the
Japanese, Germans, and Italians who were interned after DOJ seem to
have been excluded from eligibility.
Not so good. Try squirming again. You can't deny
Actually, that wording is in the bill. Did you not read it?
Post by w***@aol.com
Feel free to apologize for implying I am racist and a hypocrite.
No personal offense meant.
Of course there is; you can't help yourself.
Post by w***@aol.com
"There has been much emotional hype on this thread in recent days with
regard to the WWII evacuation/relocation of Japanese nationals and
Japanese-Americans (most of whom were minor children at the time)"
What led you to change your mind?
I'm flattered that you hang on my every word, but where
Actually, it takes a few seconds to search the internet for these things.


And no, he didn't mischaracterize your posts. You do that yourself.

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-01-31 18:43:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0500,
.....You have no proof that they were any
more or less loyal by 1941,
"That there were members of the group who
retained loyalties to Japan has been confirmed..."
[Korematsu decision 1944].
Of course there were; the issue is just how many that was, and the
*assumption* seems to have been that they all were. What was needed
was just how many actually felt any such loyalty and/or acted on such
a loyalty.
Post by w***@aol.com
Some assimilated. Some did not. Some who assimilated
but were still loyal to Japan.
I'm a little confused how someone can be both assimilated to American
life and yet be loyal to a different country. Assimilation, IMO, is
one of the keys to the whole issue of the JAs and the relocation. Some
background from the pre-war years shows both the gains and the losses
for the Japanese during that time.

George Simpson and J. Milton Yinger, in their 1958 edition of "Racial
and Cultural Minorities," summarize the assimilation experience of
several such minorities, including the Japanese.

They point out that there was an age and culture gap between the
Issei, average age 58, and the Nisei, average age 19. The Issei had
been in the US for an average of thirty years. The bulk of the Issei
were born during the Meiji Restoration, and since immigration ended in
1924 most had come to the United States before Hirohito [Showa] became
emperor in 1926. The Meiji Restoration [1868 - 1912] was an era of
intense curiosity about the outside world; the government sent
delegations to the West to investigate and bring back foreign science,
arts, political systems, and industries. Public schools became
mandatory and new universities sprang up. That was the Japan that the
Issei knew and remembered as they established families in the US. In
the face of social, economic, and occupational restraints both Issei
and Nisei tended to associate mainly with other Japanese, avoiding the
white population.

Many Issei sent their older children to Japan to be trained in the
culture they remembered--unaware that the contemporary culture in
Japan had changed radically. The hope was that their Japan-educated
children would teach their Nisei siblings the culture the Issei
remembered. However, the Kibei were exposed to the narrow doctrines
of the Imperial military of the 1930s and, increasingly, Japanese
expansion in East Asia. By 1942 it was estimated more than 25,000 had
been educated in Japan [Simpson-Yinger, p.535, citing F. J. Brown and
J. S. Roucek (eds), "One America."] Neither the Issei nor the Nisei
got along well with the returning Kibei. American Nisei girls were
reluctant to marry the Kibei men, and the Kibei and Nisei men had
little in common. "There was an unending battle in the family, and
one more burden added to the cares of the parents who saw another
cherished plan--the return of the Japan-educated child to guide the
other children by example--come a cropper." [citing Bradford Smith,
"Americans from Japan, " 1948]

The Nisei who grew up in the US were caught between the Japan of their
parents and the America of their birth. "Though far more American
than Japanese, they were not entirely at home in either culture. As a
result of numerous rejections they developed a marginal culture of
their own. They were socially at ease only among themselves, lacking
the etiquette for Japanese company and fearing always the intrusion of
prejudice in an American setting . . . ." [quoting Carey McWilliams,
"Prejudice--Japanese-Americans," 1944]

Simpson and Yinger contend that the Nisei were more comfortable with
other Americans than with their own parents, a fact that caused
uneasiness in the Japanese community and ran counter to "Once a Jap.
Always a Jap."

In spite of the hardships of the camps and the material losses of the
hurried evacuation, within a couple of years after returning from the
camps it was reported that the Japanese "with great determination made
substantial progress toward again making a stable place for themselves
in the metropolitan area [of Los Angeles county]." [Simpson & Yinger
quoting Leonard Bloom and Ruth Riemer, "Removal and Return{, 1949]
Post by w***@aol.com
Surely you don't consider the ability to file lawsuits to be the full
range of civil liberties all Americans are entitled to, do you?
You claimed that the JAs didn't have "legal standing."
They lost their cases.
Legal standing has nothing to do with wins or losses. Standing
involves access to the court in the first place. However, what I said
was that they were denied civil liberties, not legal standing. The
difference matters.
Post by w***@aol.com
Of course technicalities have an affect on precedents.
Technicalities are not about precedents--they're about guaranteeing a
fair trial. In all likelihood very few cases are *won* on
technicalities, since a technicality is a flaw in the process.
Post by w***@aol.com
Such a case is not decided on its merits but on some arcane legal rule
enforced by the whim of a trial judge, often a political appointee.
That's an amazing statement, since our Supreme Court is made up of
political appointees, as are a great number of our lower courts. And
the Supreme Court depends on and makes arcane rules when they fit the
facts of the case. Do you want to rethink this?
Post by w***@aol.com
What you appear
to be saying is that anyone holding U.S. citizenship,
whether by chance or design, is automatically and
indisputably a truly good citizen
Not at all. I am saying that every citizen is presumed to be
guaranteed a hearing on how good his citizenship is, whether he is
loyal or not, whether he is honest or a thief.

The issue of question # 28 has been done to death. The outcome is
clear, and it doesn't make any difference whether there was one
questionnaire, two, more, nor who they were intended for.
Post by w***@aol.com
I would think that one as sensitive to stereotyping
as you profess to be would hesitate to stereotype all the
Nisei as having been chomping at the bit to show loyalty
to the good old USA
That is a blatant distortion of what I actually said--and implies that
I am a racist.
Post by w***@aol.com
Not so good. Try squirming again. You can't deny
that the the European internees were clearly excluded
because of their race.
Post by w***@aol.com
I'm truly shocked, shocked
at the degree of hypocrisy I'm seeing here.
Feel free to apologize for implying I am racist and a hypocrite.
No personal offense meant. Any such inference you perceive was
simply benign. You are not being "festerized."
I don't know what "festerized" means in your language, but since you
accuse me of hypocrisy in the line directly above I refuse to believe
you meant no personal offense. Who else could that have meant in the
context of this exchange? And you have also clearly implied that I
have racist reasons for what I wrote about the DOJ camp restitution
matter. You brought that issue into this thread which has been about
discrimination and assimilation; restitution is one of your stock
diversionary topics.
Post by w***@aol.com
What led you to change your mind?
I'm flattered that you hang on my every word
Hang on your every word? Hardly. It's really simple; there's this
thing called the Google and a few years ago the guys that created the
Google bought a big bunch of old stuff from a thing called Deja News.
The Google folks found out that that was a record of almost everything
ever posted on the Internet back in the days when people still
discussed matters of importance. As Casey Stengel said, "You could
look it up."
Post by w***@aol.com
Most of the dual citizens were in the over
18 age range. Most of the evacuated Nisei evacuated were
minors. There is no contradiction. You just interpreted
wrong.
ISTM your contention has been that all Nisei had dual citizenship. Am
I misremembering? Where and when did you state that only some were?
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-01 05:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
that the the European internees were clearly excluded
because of their race.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
I'm truly shocked, shocked
at the degree of hypocrisy I'm seeing here.
Feel free to apologize for implying I am racist and a hypocrite.
No personal offense meant. Any such inference you perceive was
simply benign. You are not being "festerized."
I don't know what "festerized" means in your language, but since you
accuse me of hypocrisy in the line directly above I refuse to believe
you meant no personal offense. Who else could that have meant in the
context of this exchange? And you have also clearly implied that I
have racist reasons for what I wrote about the DOJ camp restitution
matter. You brought that issue into this thread which has been about
discrimination and assimilation; restitution is one of your stock
diversionary topics.
Well, more to the point is that he has consistently maintained that
those of European descent were locked up on the basis of individual
threat assessment. In other words, despite their much greater numbers, it
was possible to treat them on a case-by-case basis.

He further contends that there was "not enough time" to deal with the
much smaller number of people of Japanese descent, so of course they would
need to be locked up en masse.

It seems dishonest, then, that he claims restitution for a racially based
wrong shows the racism of the restitution process.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Most of the dual citizens were in the over
18 age range. Most of the evacuated Nisei evacuated were
minors. There is no contradiction. You just interpreted
wrong.
ISTM your contention has been that all Nisei had dual citizenship. Am
I misremembering? Where and when did you state that only some were?
And, of course, how does he address that the Japanese consul at the time
did not seem to believe most nisei were dual citizens.

Mike
w***@aol.com
2013-02-01 18:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
.....You have no proof that they were any
more or less loyal by 1941,
"That there were members of the group who
retained loyalties to Japan has been confirmed..."
[Korematsu decision 1944].
Of course there were; the issue is just how many that was, and the
*assumption* seems to have been that they all were. What was
needed was just how many actually felt any such loyalty and/or
acted on such a loyalty.
Post by w***@aol.com
Some assimilated. Some did not. Some who assimilated
but were still loyal to Japan.
I'm a little confused how someone can be both assimilated to
American life and yet be loyal to a different country.
Assimilation....one of the keys to the whole issue of the JAs
and the relocation.
Well, first you have to know understand what is meant
by the term "assimilation." I believe this definition fits
nicely: " sociology: the merging of cultural traits from
previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological
amalgamation."
Then the definition of the word "trait." A
common one is "trait: A genetically determined characteristic."
With those two definitions in mind, one can see
that a person could easily be assmilated to American life, yet
be loyal to Japan. One might have been born in the U.S. Have
been a citizen of both Japan and the U.S. Spent time in Japan
for schooling, Have had military training in Japan. Be able to
peak in both English and Japanese. Made friends in Japan.
And formed an emotional attachment to that country itself.
Then, on return to the U.S. to rejoin his parents as a
teenager that person perhaps went to high shool or college.
listened to the radio, went to the movies, and otherwise
became re-adjusted to U.S. customs and society just by
the process of sociological osmosis.
When push came to shove after PH such a
person could easily have felt a loyalty to Japan. This was
evidfenced by the number of Nisei who actually fought on
Japan's side against the U.S. during the war, and those
others who renounced their U.S. citizenship and requested
exlpatriation to do so. Then, of course, there were the
"NO,NO" boys who refused to serve when callled by Selective
Service. And we musn't forget the "Banzai" militants who
caused so much trouble at the Manzanar Relocation Center in
1942 and the again at the Tule Lake Segregation Center in
1944. Need I go on?
Post by Don Kirkman
George Simpson and J. Milton Yinger, in their 1958 edition of "Racial
and Cultural Minorities," summarize the assimilation experience of
several such minorities, including the Japanese.
(Long treatise on assmilation deleted for brevity of quoted
material)
Post by Don Kirkman
The Nisei who grew up in the US were caught between the Japan
of their parents and the America of their birth.....Simpson and
Yinger contend that the Nisei were more comfortable with other
Americans than with their own parents...
Well, there go Simpson and Yinger stereotyping all Nisei.
Could it not be the case that some Nisei were more
comfortable iwith the culture of their parents? Particularly
those Nisei who had lived and studied in Japan and, although
reasonably assimilated into American ways, were citizens
of Japan and had a feeling of loyalty to Japan?
Post by Don Kirkman
Technicalities are not about precedents--they're about guaranteeing a
fair trial.
Sometimes, maybe. But more likely they provide an
opportunity for one side or the other to take an unfair
advantage over merit and evidence.
Post by Don Kirkman
In all likelihood very few cases are *won* on technicalities,
since a technicality is a flaw in the process.
Also sometimes, but often not just a "flaw in the process"
but a mistake or misinterpretation of some point in the
process which doesn't jibe with the opinion or personal
view of a trial judge.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Such a case is not decided on its merits but on some arcane
legal rule enforced by the whim of a trial judge, often a political
appointee
That's an amazing statement, since our Supreme Court is made up of
political appointees, as are a great number of our lower courts....
Do you want to rethink this?
Nothing to "rethink." You neglect to point out that the SC
justices are not just "appointees," they are "nominees" who
must withstand a severe confirmation process.
And "Equal Justice Under the Law" is a nice slogan but
is often not the case. Case in point: the outrageous PL
100-383 race-based payments and apologies made only to
Japanese enemy aliens interned by the Department of Justice
on bona fide warltime security charges.
Since you were making ado about rhe "Coram Nobis"
cases being a precedent which would be of historic legal
significance, I thought it only fair to point out that the
Hirabyadshi set-aside of conviction was based on the trial
judge disallowing legitimate evidence only because it didn't
reach his arbitrary deadline on time. That was the virtue
of the technicality which was instrumental in the ruling..
Let me also call attention to the Korematsu set-aside on which
the trial judge had no choice but to rule for the plaintiff because
40 years after the fact the government made a political decision
not to defend the government's wartime position.
Post by Don Kirkman
The issue of question # 28 has been done to death. The outcome is
clear, and it doesn't make any difference whether there was one
questionnaire, two, more, nor who they were intended for.
Well, you were quite adamant about who signed which form
and why, and made quite an issue about it, but now when
you realize you were confused and got things wrong, it
"doesn't make any difference?" Do you want to 're-think"
your previous position?
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
I would think that one as sensitive to stereotyping
as you profess to be would hesitate to stereotype all the
Nisei as having been chomping at the bit to show loyalty
to the good old USA
That is a blatant distortion of what I actually said
and implies that I am a racist.
I don't think so. I took you at your word. In your last
post when you said:
"....I'm primarily "obsessed" ;-) by the racial
stereotyping of US citizens, including the Nisei."
Moreover, over the years I've known you
in this forum you've written reams and reams
of material about how the Japanese were treated so
badly by racist America that in, in effect, those
among them who were engaged in un-American
activities before WWII should be excused and
compensated rather than scorned. I think it fair to
call your own belief in the high degree of loyalty
demonstrated by the Nisei to be essentially
all-inclusive. In other words, you have "stereotyped"
them.
Furthermore when I noted that you could not
deny that the European internees in DOJ internment
were "clearly excluded" from compensation because
of their race" your response was to justify payment
only to those of Japanese ancestry as "appropriate
because only the Japanese and the Aleuts had
significant property or asset losses..." BUT---you
*forgot* to mention that those losses had long before
been re-imbursed under the 1948 Evacuation Claims
Act which selttled 26,568 such ethni Japanese claims
up to $100,000 for the total sum of $37,000,000.
Those not satisfied had the right of appeal to the U.S.
Court of Claims. Only 15 of the some 26,000 ever
appealed.
Post by Don Kirkman
.....you have also clearly implied that I have racist reasons for what I
wrote about the DOJ camp restitution matter. You brought that issue
into this thread which has been about discrimination and
assimilation; restitution is one of your stock diversionary
topics.
Post by w***@aol.com
Feel free to apologize for implying I am racist and a hypocrite.
I didn't say that you personally were a racist, or
that you, personally, were hypocritical but let's call
a spade a spade. If the shoe fits, put it on.
You, yourself, if not directly but by strong implication,
have accused whole communities of Americans of
"racism" for having stereotyped the ethnic Japanese.
And you have gone even further. You imply that those
who violate your version of current politically-correct
" speech codes," including myself, are racists. So, why
not take a harder look at your own ideological mindset.
Let's just say consider your own "inconsistencies."
As for restitution it has been a significant adjunct to
the whole origin and admiinistration of PL 100-383 which
has been part of this thread. Discussion of PL 100-383 is
certainly not a diversion. That law was an ill-conceived
by-product of the whole assimilation debate.
Post by Don Kirkman
I don't know what "festerized" means....
I don't think I need elaborate. You've been around this
forum long enough to know it when you see it.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Most of the dual citizens were in the over
18 age range. Most of the evacuated Nisei evacuated were
minors. There is no contradiction. You just interpreted
wrong.
ISTM your contention has been that all Nisei had dual citizenship. Am
I misremembering?
You certainly are "misremembering." You and I have
been exchanging views on this WWII forum for quite a few years
and I'm beginning to realize that despite your alleged expertise
with regard to the history of Asian migration to the U.S., you
apparently have many shortcomings insofar as your knowledge
of the WWII ramifications connected with the west coast "Japanese
problem."
Post by Don Kirkman
Where and when did you state that only some were?
As far as I can recall, whenever I posted on the subject. I've
always made it clear that the bulk of the dual citizens were in
the age range of 18 and over at the time of PH simply because
before 1924 children born anywhere in the world of Japanese
parents were automatically by inheritance citizens of Japan.
Thus by 1941 (17 years later) those Nisei 18 years old and older
were dual citizens unless they had renounced their Japanese
citizenship which very few did. Prof. Stephan put the number
who renounced their Japanrese citizenship at only 8%.
In 1924 the Japanese Diet changed the law so that in
order to be Japanese citizens, children born out of Japan
of Japanese parents had to be registered by rhe parents
at a Japanese consulate or Embassy within two weeks of birth
in order to be Japanese citizens. For family reasons some
such children were registered by their parents and did become
dual citizens but not as many as those born prior to 1924, who
had inherited their Japanese citizens automatically.
[See John J. Stephan's "Hawaii Under the Rising Sun" which
has been a part of my library since the 1990s.]

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-01 23:55:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Some assimilated. Some did not. Some who assimilated
but were still loyal to Japan.
I'm a little confused how someone can be both assimilated to
American life and yet be loyal to a different country.
Assimilation....one of the keys to the whole issue of the JAs
and the relocation.
Well, first you have to know understand what is meant
by the term "assimilation." I believe this definition fits
nicely: " sociology: the merging of cultural traits from
previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological
amalgamation."
Then the definition of the word "trait." A
common one is "trait: A genetically determined characteristic."
This is confusing; you supply a definition that fits whatever nonsense you
wish to promote, and come up with
"the merging of cultural traits from previously distinct cultural groups"

Then, you define "traits" as "a genetically determined characteristic" for
these purposes. Genetics has nothing to do with it, of course, unless your
whole case is built on racism.
Post by w***@aol.com
When push came to shove after PH such a
person could easily have felt a loyalty to Japan. This was
Or more easily, to the US.
Post by w***@aol.com
evidfenced by the number of Nisei who actually fought on
Japan's side against the U.S. during the war, and those
Sorry; explain how the Japanese living in Japan implicate the nisei who
chose to live in the US, please.
Post by w***@aol.com
others who renounced their U.S. citizenship and requested
exlpatriation to do so. Then, of course, there were the
Well, that was after they were locked up for being Japanese in a public
place.
Post by w***@aol.com
"NO,NO" boys who refused to serve when callled by Selective
Service. And we musn't forget the "Banzai" militants who
caused so much trouble at the Manzanar Relocation Center in
1942 and the again at the Tule Lake Segregation Center in
1944. Need I go on?
No, you need to start. All the "proof" you have concerns people locked up
without trial.
Post by w***@aol.com
Well, there go Simpson and Yinger stereotyping all Nisei.
Could it not be the case that some Nisei were more
comfortable iwith the culture of their parents? Particularly
Well, since those parents had spent, minimally, 17 years in the US by that
time, that culture would likely have been quite Americanized, wouldn't it?

Did you not think this through? Again?
Post by w***@aol.com
Moreover, over the years I've known you
in this forum you've written reams and reams
of material about how the Japanese were treated so
badly by racist America that in, in effect, those
among them who were engaged in un-American
activities before WWII should be excused and
Well, no, there you go lying again.

He has made it clear, over the years, that he distinguishes between those
who were suspect, and those who were locked up just for being "Japanese".
Post by w***@aol.com
Furthermore when I noted that you could not
deny that the European internees in DOJ internment
were "clearly excluded" from compensation because
of their race" your response was to justify payment
Furthermore, we noted that you could not deny that the Europens were NOT
locked due to their race, but ONLY after reviews on a case-by-case basis.

So how would an apology for being badly treated on the basis of race apply
to them, Mr Hopwood?
Post by w***@aol.com
You, yourself, if not directly but by strong implication,
have accused whole communities of Americans of
"racism" for having stereotyped the ethnic Japanese.
Um, well, there's a definition in that.

And, as you were "there at the time", racism and racial discrimination was
perfectly legal at the time. I believe you have often considered those
days to be superior, in regards to how people view race, than today with
its "obsession" with race.
Post by w***@aol.com
And you have gone even further. You imply that those
who violate your version of current politically-correct
" speech codes," including myself, are racists. So, why
No, he implies that you personally are racist. I state it directly.

Indeed, you bask in it, so long as you aren't directly labelled as such.
Post by w***@aol.com
In 1924 the Japanese Diet changed the law so that in
order to be Japanese citizens, children born out of Japan
of Japanese parents had to be registered by rhe parents
at a Japanese consulate or Embassy within two weeks of birth
And, as has been pointed out, by 1941 about 70% of the nisei (or sansei,
really) were citizens of the US only, and not dual citizens.

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-02-05 21:55:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 13:14:27 -0500, "***@aol.com"
<***@aol.com> wrote:

You may remember I posted information about two of the sources whose
definitions of stereotyping I incorporated into mine. My third source
was Walter Lippmann, whom you may have heard of. In "Popular
Opinion"[1922] Lippmann discussed his belief that the common man often
failed to understand the real state of the world in which he lived.
His analysis of the limitations on recognizing reality included a
"picture in the head", which filtered incoming information.

[Begin]
The analysis then turns from these more or less external limitations
to the question of how this trickle of messages from the outside is
affected by the stored up images, the preconceptions, and prejudices
which interpret, fill them out, and in their turn powerfully direct
the play of our attention, and our vision itself. From this it
proceeds to examine how in the individual person the limited messages
from outside, formed into a pattern of stereotypes, are identified
with his own interests as he feels and conceives them. In the
succeeding sections it examines how opinions are crystallized into
what is called Public Opinion, how a National Will, a Group Mind, a
Social Purpose, or whatever you choose to call it, is formed.
[End]
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/6456/pg6456.txt

Lippmann seems to be relevant to much of the discussion in this group.
Post by w***@aol.com
Well, first you have to know understand what is meant
by the term "assimilation." I believe this definition fits
nicely: " sociology: the merging of cultural traits from
previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological
amalgamation."
I'd like to see three or four sources for that definition, please. It
seems to be home-made and extremely limited. And since it is biased
against miscegenation one might expect to see bias in other areas as
well.

Try this one:
ASSIMILATION Sociology Dictionary
[Start]
A minority group's internalization of the values and norms of the
dominant culture.
http://sociology.socialsciencedictionary.com/Sociology-Dictionary/ASSIMILATION
[End]
Post by w***@aol.com
Then the definition of the word "trait." A
common one is "trait: A genetically determined characteristic."
If it's common perhaps you could provide two or three sources where
it's defined in those or equivalent terms.

Meantime try this one used in the field:
[Start}
Traits

(genetics) Characteristics or attributes of an organism that are
expressed by genes and/or influenced by the environment.

Supplement

Traits include physical attributes of an organism such as hair color,
leaf shape, size, etc., and behavioral characteristics, such as bird
nesting.
[End]
http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Traits
Post by w***@aol.com
With those two definitions in mind, one can see
that a person could easily be assmilated to American life, yet
be loyal to Japan.
If we use definitions from those who work in this area of research,
your argument falls apart. Your reasoning carries no weight since it
is purely subjective and you offer no support for it. You can't pull
facts out of a batch of "maybe," "could have been," and "I think"
statements. As a matter of fact, your supposed universe of events in
the life of a Nisei is contradicted by the evidence I have already
cited from Simpson and Yinger and their sources.

Your position is shot through with racism and century-old stereotypes:
Japanese can't change [i.e., "A Jap is always a Jap"]; The Kibei all
absorbed and aligned with what they were taught in Japan. The Issei
sent their children to Japan to teach them to honor Japan and the
emperor. The Japanese are clannish. The Japanese are sneaky. The
Japanese can't be trusted. Shall I go on?
Post by w***@aol.com
Then, on return to the U.S. to rejoin his parents as a
teenager that person perhaps went to high shool or college . . .
and otherwise
became re-adjusted to U.S. customs and society just by
the process of sociological osmosis.
So in your view they were sneaky enough to become outwardly adapted to
US customs and society but still maintain their loyalty to Japan? Or
being Japanese, they were unable or unwilling to change their racial
loyalties? Racist stereotypes

I haven't seen you adjusting to changing US customs and society just
by the process of sociological osmosis--whatever that is.
Post by w***@aol.com
When push came to shove after PH such a
person could easily have felt a loyalty to Japan. This was
evidfenced by the number of Nisei who actually fought on
Japan's side against the U.S. during the war,
Technically those were really only potential Kibei, and since they
didn't return to the US but stayed in Japan they can hardly be
examples of the entire Nisei population or of typical Kibei behavior.
Post by w***@aol.com
and those
others who renounced their U.S. citizenship and requested
exlpatriation to do so.
Under duress of incarceration and everything that accompanied it.

Earlier I wrote "I'm a little confused how someone can be both
assimilated to American life and yet be loyal to a different country."
I was wrong--you seem to are the one who is more than a little
confused--with an intent to confuse others? At any rate you haven't
given any persuasive evidence for your version of the Japanese culture
at the start of the war.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
George Simpson and J. Milton Yinger, in their 1958 edition of "Racial
and Cultural Minorities," summarize the assimilation experience of
several such minorities, including the Japanese.
The Nisei who grew up in the US were caught between the Japan
of their parents and the America of their birth.....Simpson and
Yinger contend that the Nisei were more comfortable with other
Americans than with their own parents...
Well, there go Simpson and Yinger stereotyping all Nisei.
Well, there you go changing the text again. They did not use the word
"all" since scientists and historians generally try to avoid
overstating their cases. Do you honestly believe they thought that
70,000 Nisei all thought and acted exactly alike?

If you understood stereotyping and its manifestations you wouldn't
have brought it up in this context.
Post by w***@aol.com
Could it not be the case that some Nisei were more
comfortable iwith the culture of their parents?
No, according to Simpson and Yinger's research, which draws from
social scientists and government documents on the evacuation and
relocation. They clearly explained that the three groups were quite
different and gave examples, the Issei aging and fading away, the
Kibei with 1930s Japanese militarism and narrowness, and the Nisei
with much affinity to American culture but leery of White opposition.
Post by w***@aol.com
those Nisei who had lived and studied in Japan and, although
reasonably assimilated into American ways, were citizens
of Japan and had a feeling of loyalty to Japan?
No, because those have already been put in the Kibei category and
discussed by Simpson and Yinger, who clearly distinguish them from the
Issei, who were raised in the societal openness of the Meiji Era and
content with their American lives even though they were denied US
citizenship.

The Kibei as a group were also distinguished from the Americanized
Nisei (where in one sample only 6% of a draft call-up refused to be
inducted). I've already written that the Kibei and Nisei men had
very little in common.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Technicalities are not about precedents-
Sometimes, maybe. But more likely they provide an
opportunity for one side or the other to take an unfair
advantage over merit and evidence.
Funny, I would have taken you for a very strict law and order
proponent. Yet you appear to be very suspicious of people, laws,
court decisions, and who knows what else that doesn't fit your view of
American life. Is that just a hint of paranoia and conspiracy fears?
Post by w***@aol.com
Nothing to "rethink." You neglect to point out that the SC
justices are not just "appointees," they are "nominees" who
must withstand a severe confirmation process.
I didn't think I would need to point that out for you. But how does
that keep them from being political appointees? Changing "appointed"
to "nominated and confirmed" does not remove politics from the
process. Or is "politics" what you're hung up on because you believe
politics is always a negative thing? If so how do you feel about the
politics of the relocation? Gov. Earl Warren felt the people of
California would welcome the removal of the Japanese. The mayor of
Los Angeles not only wanted them out but spoke against their return
when the camps were closing. And there were plenty of others with
the same interest in the process, including federal politicians.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
I would think that one as sensitive to stereotyping
as you profess to be would hesitate to stereotype all the
Nisei as having been chomping at the bit to show loyalty
to the good old USA
That is a blatant distortion of what I actually said
and implies that I am a racist.
I don't think so. I took you at your word.
No, you didn't. Show me a cite where I "stereotype[d] all the Nisei
as having been chomping at the bit to show loyalty to the good old
USA" in those words or any equivalent words. That is your
misconstruction of what I actually said.

What I and others have consistently done is deny and refute your
assertions that they were all disloyal to their native country.
Post by w***@aol.com
You, yourself, if not directly but by strong implication,
have accused whole communities of Americans of
"racism" for having stereotyped the ethnic Japanese.
. . . and the ethnic Chinese, Filipinos, Blacks, Germans, Italians,
Poles, Vietnamese, Koreans, . . . California's long period of
racist behavior is well documented, from the days of the Mexican
ranchos and the Indians, mission Indians and especially tribal groups,
to at least the end of WW II. It is not mitigated significantly by
the Californios' similar treatment of European and American newcomers
to the state in earlier times.

And I have presented much of my material on the Chinese and Japanese
agitation, with cites to the sources, in this forum. You apparently
cannot accept anything positive said or written about the Japanese.
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-06 06:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Well, first you have to know understand what is meant
by the term "assimilation." I believe this definition fits
nicely: " sociology: the merging of cultural traits from
previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological
amalgamation."
I'd like to see three or four sources for that definition, please. It
seems to be home-made and extremely limited. And since it is biased
against miscegenation one might expect to see bias in other areas as
well.
Post by w***@aol.com
Then the definition of the word "trait." A
common one is "trait: A genetically determined characteristic."
If it's common perhaps you could provide two or three sources where
it's defined in those or equivalent terms.
It is a common definition, when discussing biology.

However, to bring this up in a discussion like this is to flatly state
that "genetic traits" determine assimilation. Ie, "race". Clearly, he is
stating that the Japanese could not assimilate because of their race. This
seems (for lack of a better word) "racist".
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
With those two definitions in mind, one can see
that a person could easily be assmilated to American life, yet
be loyal to Japan.
If we use definitions from those who work in this area of research,
your argument falls apart.
Even using that, the argument falls apart, unless he is convinced that
genetics determines national loyalties.
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
You, yourself, if not directly but by strong implication,
have accused whole communities of Americans of
"racism" for having stereotyped the ethnic Japanese.
. . . and the ethnic Chinese, Filipinos, Blacks, Germans, Italians,
Poles, Vietnamese, Koreans, . . . California's long period of
racist behavior is well documented, from the days of the Mexican
ranchos and the Indians, mission Indians and especially tribal groups,
to at least the end of WW II. It is not mitigated significantly by
the Californios' similar treatment of European and American newcomers
to the state in earlier times.
More to the point, OF COURSE whole communities in the US at the time were
racist; racism was encoded into law, for everything from who could immigrate,
to private personal matters like who you could not marry, where people could
sit depending on color, etc.

One might well argue that the horrors we saw coming out of Nazi Germany were
a wakeup call to the US populace about the policies of racism carried to
an extreme. Certainly, many US laws began to change after the war, and the
US began to integrate the military, reform its immigration laws, etc.

Mike
w***@aol.com
2013-02-06 17:56:54 UTC
Permalink
.....I posted information about two of the sources
whose definitions of stereotyping I incorporated
into mine. My third source was Walter Lippmann
...(who) discussed his belief that the common man
often failed to understand the real state of the world...
Interesting that you would seem to adhere to the
thinking of Walter Lippman, a strange intellectual
bedfellow for someone with your line of reasoning.
Having another problem with consistency perhaps?
Did you forget or never know that Lippmann was one
the most foremost advocates in the U.S. for the
evacuation of all ethnic Japanese from the West
Coast after Pearl Harbor.
"Personal Justice Denied" described him as
"A prominent intellectually respected syndicated
columnist who wrote of his serious concern about
a Japanese raid on the United States and ....
(that) saboteurs would be native born Nisei as well as
aliens.... (his views) taken as a recommendation
to exclude all ethnic Japanese from the West Coast..."
Lippmann seems to be relevant to much of the discussion
in this group.
Yes, but for reasons other than you appear to believe.

(W.J.Hopwood wrote:)
Post by w***@aol.com
Well, first you have to know understand what is meant
by the term "assimilation." I believe this definition fits
nicely: " sociology: the merging of cultural traits from
previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological
amalgamation."
I'd like to see three or four sources for that definition,
please.
OK. Go to Google. Type in "definition of assimilation"
and take your choice.
seems to be home-made and extremely limited. And
since it is biased against miscegenation one might expect
to see bias in other areas as well.
Why don't you take that up with Google or its sources?
Post by w***@aol.com
Then the definition of the word "trait." A
common one is "trait: A genetically determined
characteristic."
If it's common perhaps you could provide two or three
sources where it's defined in those or equivalent terms.
Try Google again. There are many sources there.
As far as i could see they had a common thread. If
you don't like it, take it up with Google, not me.
Meantime try this one used in the field: "trait" (genetics)
Characteristics or attributes of an organism that are
expressed by genes and/or influenced by the environment.
Post by w***@aol.com
With those two definitions in mind, one can see
that a person could easily be assimilated to American
life, yet be loyal to Japan.
If we use definitions from those who work in this area of
research, your argument falls apart.
You are nitpicking to cover an absence of logic.
Your position is shot through with racism and century-old
stereotypes: Japanese can't change
Just calling me "racist" in your frustration at having to
cover up the facts with obsessive emotional display of
nonsense shows that you are becoming hypnotized with
your own self-righteousness.
Post by w***@aol.com
Then, on return to the U.S. to rejoin his parents as a
teenager that person perhaps went to high shool or college . . .
and otherwise became re-adjusted to U.S. customs and society j
just by the process of sociological osmosis.
So in your view they were sneaky enough to become outwardly
adapted to US customs and society but still maintain their loyalty
Japan? ....being Japanese, they were unable or unwilling to
change their racial loyalties? Racist stereotypes
You continue to make up nonsense in lieu of presenting
a logical argument. I thought better of your intellect
than that.
I haven't seen you adjusting to changing US customs and
society just by the process of sociological osmosis--whatever
that is.
Look the words up. You'll get the idea. Unfortunately,
you appear to have "over-adjusted" to much of the BS
which has become a part of the change you imagine.l
Post by w***@aol.com
When push came to shove after PH such a
person could easily have felt a loyalty to Japan.
This was evidenced by the number of Nisei who
actually fought on Japan's side against the U.S.
during the war,
Technically those were really only potential Kibei,
Oh, they were more than "potential." They were for real.
and since they didn't return to the US but stayed in Japan they
can hardly be examples of the entire Nisei population or of typical
Kibei behavior.
Quite so. But there were enough of them (including some
in very high places) to make a lie of your suggesetion that
all of the American-born of Japanese ancestry were 100%
loyal to the U.S. Are you forgetting the "No, No" boys and
the militants at Tule Lake? Excuses, excuses...to
paraphrase the lyrics from the old song--"you've got it bad
and that aint good." (Sorry. IIRC since the music was by Duke
Ellington maybe the words are "verboten" by your speech
code.)
Post by w***@aol.com
and those others who renounced their U.S. citizenship
and requested expatriation to do so.
Under duress of incarceration and everything that accompanied it.
The only duress those guys knew was the duress they
themselves dished out to other Nisei who refused to go
along with their renunciation campaign at Tule Lake
segregation center.
Earlier I wrote "I'm a little confused how someone can be both
assimilated to American life and yet be loyal to a different country."
I was wrong--
I know you were.
....you seem to are the one who is more than a little
confused--with an intent to confuse others? At any rate you
haven't given any persuasive evidence for your version of the
Japanese culture at the start of the war.
I'll leave that to you as the self-proclaimed expert in that field.
My version is that enough of them supported Japan's war effort
in Asia and were engaged in subversive activity in the U.S. to
make them, as a group, of questionable loyalty and a security
risk. In the immortal words of that fine old soldier, General
DeWitt, we had to "separate the sheep from the goats."
Post by w***@aol.com
.....Simpson and Yinger contend that the Nisei were more
comfortable with other Americans than with their own parents...
Well, there go Simpson and Yinger stereotyping all Nisei.
Well, there you go changing the text again. They did not use
the word "all" .....
Nor did they use the word "some." According to you they
said "the Nisei," period. How many did they mean? They
were stereotyping and the clear indication was they meant
the whole bunch unless you misrepresented what they said.
Do you honestly believe they thought that
70,000 Nisei all thought and acted exactly alike?
We are talking about what "they" are alleged to have said.
Not what I believe. Am I supposed to put myself in their
heads like you so often wrongly put yourself in mine?
If you understood stereotyping and its manifestations you
wouldn't have brought it up in this context.
I can understand English and know what the word
means. Simpson and Yeager were "stereotyping" all Nisei
when (according to you) they said: " THE NISEI were more
comfortable with other Americans than with their own parents."
Post by w***@aol.com
Could it not be the case that some Nisei were more
comfortable iwith the culture of their parents?
No, according to Simpson and Yinger's research, which draws from
social scientists and government documents on the evacuation and
relocation. They clearly explained that the three groups were quite
different and gave examples, the Issei aging and fading away, the
Kibei with 1930s Japanese militarism and narrowness, and the Nisei
with much affinity to American culture but leery of White opposition.
Everything you said in the above comment was "stereotyping" of
the three groups. ALL of the Issei were "aging and fading away."
ALL the Kibei were were "with 1930s Japanese militarism and
narrowness." ALL the Nisei with much affinity to American culture
but leery of White opposition." Not just a few. No qualification as
to
how many of each group were so endowed at all. You stereotype
and won't admit it.
Post by w***@aol.com
those Nisei who had lived and studied in Japan and, although
reasonably assimilated into American ways, were citizens
of Japan and had a feeling of loyalty to Japan?
No, because those have already been put in the Kibei category and
discussed by Simpson and Yinger, who clearly distinguish them
from the Issei, who were raised in the societal openness of the Meiji > Era and content with their American lives even though they were
denied US citizenship.
More stereotyping by Simpson and Yinger (and Kirkman).
The Kibei as a group were also distinguished from the Americanized
Nisei (where in one sample only 6% of a draft call-up refused to be
inducted). I've already written that the Kibei and Nisei men had
very little in common.
Stereotyping again on your part. I'm sure some Kibei and some
Nisei did not feel as if they had "very little in common."
You condemn everybody else for stereotyping but do it all the
time yourself.
Post by w***@aol.com
Technicalities ... provide an opportunity for one side or the
other to take an unfair advantage over merit and evidence.
Funny, I would have taken you for a very strict law and order
proponent.
What's contrary to law and order in stating a fact about
technicalities. They are a part of "law and orde"
Yet you appear to be very suspicious of people, laws,
court decisions, and who knows what else that doesn't fit your view of
American life. Is that just a hint of paranoia and conspiracy fears?
For Heaven's sake. You should lay off the psychiatric
evaluations. You are hardly qualifed for it, but if you insist
on keeping it up, try some self-analysis. I think you could
benefit from it.
What I and others have consistently done is deny and refute your
assertions that they were all disloyal to their native country.
I don't and haven't contended that "all" were, but that it
is indisputable that "some" were. Enough to be a security
threat until the "wheat could be separated from the chaff"
which took time. Accordingly, I believe that it was a prudent
security move to relocate the whole group until that could
be done.
That is the bottom line. The emotional clap-trap
which came more than a generation later--the race-based
apologies and financial payments to enemy aliens interned
on FBI charges, the "forgiveness" of disloyal citizens who
renounced their U.S. citizenship to fight for the enemy, the
double-payment to evacuees who had already received
restitution for losses sustained---the excuses and other
"second-guessing" of guilt-ridden ideologues who have
made a career of substituting latter-day obsessions about
race for wartime realities about nationality---all that for the
most part is superfluous nonsense. That's my POV.

WJH
Rich Rostrom
2013-02-06 21:56:39 UTC
Permalink
your suggestion that all of the American-born of
Japanese ancestry were 100% loyal to the U.S.
Which exists only in your mind. No one has
ever made that suggestion.
My version is that enough of them supported Japan's war effort
in Asia and were engaged in subversive activity in the U.S. to
make them, as a group, of questionable loyalty and a security risk.
There had been some "subversive activities" by
Japanese-Americans earlier in 1941, which included
no violence and involved only a few dozen individuals
out of over 120,000 Japanese-Americans, all of whom
had been caught.

The 2,000 or so known Japanese sympathizers identified
by the FBI had been rounded up in December 1941.
From then to the mass incarceration of Japanese
Americans in May 1942, there were no incidents of
"subversive activities" by any Japanese-Americans.

So I guess that "enough" is "none".

And just to pre-empt another straw-man argument:
there were additional Japanese-Americans who felt
no particular loyalty to the U.S., or even felt
some residual loyalty to Japan - but never acted
on it. These feelings may have deterred them from
acting in support of the U.S. - by resisting
induction into the U.S. Army, for instance - but
there is a huge gap between that and active
support of the enemy.

It's a well-known fact that many, perhaps most
French-Canadians were indifferent or even hostile to
Canada's war effort, and that they were collectively
opposed to conscription - so much so that Canada
could not send draftees overseas.

Did this show that any French-Canadians were Nazi
sympathizers, or potential spies and saboteurs in
waiting?

Of course not; no more than a similar reluctance
shows anything similar about Japanese-Americans.

Especially since such resistance developed among
Japanese-Americans almost entirely _after_ their
arbitrary imprisonment for alleged disloyalty,
and even then was probably less extensive than
among French-Canadians.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Dave Anderer
2013-02-07 14:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
That is the bottom line. The emotional clap-trap
which came more than a generation later--the race-based
apologies and financial payments to enemy aliens interned
on FBI charges, the "forgiveness" of disloyal citizens who
renounced their U.S. citizenship to fight for the enemy, the
double-payment to evacuees who had already received
restitution for losses sustained---the excuses and other
"second-guessing" of guilt-ridden ideologues who have
made a career of substituting latter-day obsessions about
race for wartime realities about nationality---all that for the
most part is superfluous nonsense. That's my POV.
And that is why this argument has gone on for so long. You're arguing
from the perspective, knowledge, and the values of the 1940's.
Everyone else here is viewing the situation from a more contemporary
perspective. Part of that is 20-20 hindsight, but a larger part are
changing values.

Cultures evolve over time. Always has happened; always will.
Individuals can rail against that fact but they'll simply become
irrelvant.

Mr. Hopwood - if I lived in the 1940s and you made your arguments to me
then I might well accept them. However, 70 years later the world has
moved on.

I'm sure there were ex-slave-owners in the early 20th century who still
maintained - and believed in their heart - that slavery was a good
thing for all concerned. But fortunately the world had moved on and
rejected such nonsense.
w***@aol.com
2013-02-08 19:25:14 UTC
Permalink
That is the bottom line.... The emotional clap-trap
which came more than a generation later--the race-based
apologies and financial payments to enemy aliens interned
on FBI charges, the "forgiveness" of disloyal citizens who
renounced their U.S. citizenship to fight for the enemy, the
double-payment to evacuees who had already received
restitution for losses sustained---
........You're arguing from the perspective,
knowledge, and the values of the 1940's....
Which happens to conform to the historical
record.
Everyone else here is viewing the situation from
a more contemporary perspective....
Yes, that's why so many of the historical events being
discussed here deserve more conformance to the factual
record than is currently given by the overabundance of
ideological hype behind much of the "contemporary
perspective" one sees in threads such as this one.
Cultures evolve over time...Individuals can rail
against that...
"Cultures" have a number of aspects. Some change,
some just fade away. Human nature, however, remains
much the same. The kind of reasoning we see which
justifies rewarding Japanese enemy aliens arrested
during WWII for subversive activities can be seen
be seen in those who would rather have seen many
thousands of Americans killed on the beaches of
Japan, than for the U.S. to have used A-bombs
to end the war. And today in those who would rather
see a thousand Americans killed by terrorists than see
one terrorist have his "human rights" violated by a
drone or be given any pain in an interrogation. Such
nuts are always with us, even among those who
consider themselves as someone with a "contemporary
perspective."
Mr. Hopwood - if I lived in the 1940s and you made your
arguments to me then I might well accept them. However,
70 years later the world has moved on.
Yes, time moves on, ideologies change, but facts remain
the same.
I'm sure there were ex-slave-owners in the early 20th
century who still maintained - and believed in their heart
that slavery was a good thing for all concerned.
I assure you that despite what you may have seen in
some of the posts to this thread, I was not one of
them.

To sum up, your opening statement rather intrigues
me with regard to what you call "current perspective," another
phrase for "conventional wisdom." Time often proves it wrong.
And I believe you were wrong to say that the points I
raised in a previous post (parts of which you quoted above)
did not conform with "current perspective."
I pointed out the "racism" inherent in actions authorized
by PL 100-383. Isn't "racism" something deplored by most who
have a "current perspective.'"
My first argument was that it was racial discrimination
when, under PL 100-383, apologies and financial restitution
was paid only to WWII Japanese enemy aliens INTERNED
in DOJ camps, BUT enemy aliens of other Axis countries
who were also INTERNED in the same DOJ camps under
identical conditions and for the same reasons, were
specifically excluded. Who can truthfully deny that this was
blatant racial discrimination?
My second argument pointed out that over 5,000 U.S,
citizens of Japanese ancestry who renounced their U.S.
citizenship and requested expatriation to fight for Japan were
later rewarded with an apology and payment of $20,000 each.
These renunciants (no longer U.S. citizens) had been
INTERNED in the same DOJ camps as those described above.
Would you not think that most reasonable people would agree
that when these enemy aliens were paid $20,000 solely
because they were "Japanese" while European Axis
enemy aliens were excluded solely because of they were NOT
"Japanese" that this was also an act of racial discrimination?
And as to my third argument: After the war Congress
passed The Evacuation Claims Act of 1948. Under the terms
of this legislation, thousands of ethnic Japanese who were
evacuated, relocated, or interned were reimbursed for losses
they had sustained as a result of their wartime experience.
Later the aforementioned persons of Japanese descent were
again paid. They each got $20,000 under PL 100-383. One contributor
to this thread argued that the latter payment was
made only to Japanese enemy aliens and not to European
enemy aliens because of losses sustained only by the Japanese.
He did not acknowledge that loss reimbursement payments had
been made many decades earlier, and that the second payment,
if for losses, would have been a "double payment." Or hat
the payment had been made solely because of race. Wasn't
that racial discrimination?
Seems as if the "current perspective" may be missing
something if it doesn't agree with my conclusions above.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-09 03:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
That is the bottom line.... The emotional clap-trap
which came more than a generation later--the race-based
apologies and financial payments to enemy aliens interned
on FBI charges, the "forgiveness" of disloyal citizens who
renounced their U.S. citizenship to fight for the enemy, the
double-payment to evacuees who had already received
restitution for losses sustained---
........You're arguing from the perspective,
knowledge, and the values of the 1940's....
Which happens to conform to the historical
record.
Well, yes, in that the Americans were incarcerated for being of Japanese
descent.
Post by w***@aol.com
Everyone else here is viewing the situation from
a more contemporary perspective....
Yes, that's why so many of the historical events being
discussed here deserve more conformance to the factual
record than is currently given by the overabundance of
Actually, they are; hence the recognition that the action was wrong.
Post by w***@aol.com
Cultures evolve over time...Individuals can rail
against that...
"Cultures" have a number of aspects. Some change,
some just fade away. Human nature, however, remains
much the same. The kind of reasoning we see which
justifies rewarding Japanese enemy aliens arrested
during WWII for subversive activities can be seen
as necessary. Locking up people who were NOT suspect because of their race
seems stupid, racist, costly, and embarassing to the reputation of the
US.
Post by w***@aol.com
be seen in those who would rather have seen many
thousands of Americans killed on the beaches of
Japan, than for the U.S. to have used A-bombs
to end the war.
Sorry; how does that relate to locking up your own people?
Post by w***@aol.com
see a thousand Americans killed by terrorists than see
one terrorist have his "human rights" violated by a
drone or be given any pain in an interrogation. Such
Well, the latter is matter of the US having signed treaties agreeing that
it was a bad thing.

But then, liberals like McCain don't understand the impact of torture,
do they?
Post by w***@aol.com
Mr. Hopwood - if I lived in the 1940s and you made your
arguments to me then I might well accept them. However,
70 years later the world has moved on.
Yes, time moves on, ideologies change, but facts remain
the same.
They do; not one whit of evidence existed, nor has been uncovered after
the fact, implicating ANY of the nisei locked up after the initial
arrests in any act of treason, sabatoge, or espionage.

But, when will you address those facts?

Mike
Post by w***@aol.com
I'm sure there were ex-slave-owners in the early 20th
century who still maintained - and believed in their heart
that slavery was a good thing for all concerned.
I assure you that despite what you may have seen in
some of the posts to this thread, I was not one of
them.
To sum up, your opening statement rather intrigues
me with regard to what you call "current perspective," another
phrase for "conventional wisdom." Time often proves it wrong.
And I believe you were wrong to say that the points I
raised in a previous post (parts of which you quoted above)
did not conform with "current perspective."
I pointed out the "racism" inherent in actions authorized
by PL 100-383. Isn't "racism" something deplored by most who
have a "current perspective.'"
My first argument was that it was racial discrimination
when, under PL 100-383, apologies and financial restitution
was paid only to WWII Japanese enemy aliens INTERNED
in DOJ camps, BUT enemy aliens of other Axis countries
who were also INTERNED in the same DOJ camps under
identical conditions and for the same reasons, were
specifically excluded. Who can truthfully deny that this was
blatant racial discrimination?
My second argument pointed out that over 5,000 U.S,
citizens of Japanese ancestry who renounced their U.S.
citizenship and requested expatriation to fight for Japan were
later rewarded with an apology and payment of $20,000 each.
These renunciants (no longer U.S. citizens) had been
INTERNED in the same DOJ camps as those described above.
Would you not think that most reasonable people would agree
that when these enemy aliens were paid $20,000 solely
because they were "Japanese" while European Axis
enemy aliens were excluded solely because of they were NOT
"Japanese" that this was also an act of racial discrimination?
And as to my third argument: After the war Congress
passed The Evacuation Claims Act of 1948. Under the terms
of this legislation, thousands of ethnic Japanese who were
evacuated, relocated, or interned were reimbursed for losses
they had sustained as a result of their wartime experience.
Later the aforementioned persons of Japanese descent were
again paid. They each got $20,000 under PL 100-383. One contributor
to this thread argued that the latter payment was
made only to Japanese enemy aliens and not to European
enemy aliens because of losses sustained only by the Japanese.
He did not acknowledge that loss reimbursement payments had
been made many decades earlier, and that the second payment,
if for losses, would have been a "double payment." Or hat
the payment had been made solely because of race. Wasn't
that racial discrimination?
Seems as if the "current perspective" may be missing
something if it doesn't agree with my conclusions above.
WJH
Rich Rostrom
2013-02-09 15:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
rewarding Japanese enemy aliens arrested
during WWII for subversive activities...
None of the people compensated under PL 100-383
were "arrested during WW II for subversive activities".

As you yourself have admitted many times, they
were incarcerated on suspicion of "subversive
activities", on no evidence but Japanese birth
or ancestry.

Those Japanese-Americans who were locked up
on the basis of known pro-Japanese activity,
or recent training in Japan, were excluded,
just like German-American interned as Bundists
and Italian-Americans interned for being
actively pro-Mussolini.

If any German-Americans or italian-Americans
had been interned only because of birthplace
or ancestry, they might have been compensated
too. Since none were so interned, none were
compensated.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
w***@aol.com
2013-02-10 04:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by w***@aol.com
rewarding Japanese enemy aliens arrested
during WWII for subversive activities...
None of the people compensated under PL 100-383
were "arrested during WW II for subversive activities".
Wrong. You are confusing the Japanese enemy
aliens and their American-born children (among
the children were numerous dual citizens) who
were evacuated and relocated with the Japanese
nationals (enemy aliens) who were arrested by the
FBI and send to Dept. of Justice Internment camps.
Post by Rich Rostrom
As you yourself have admitted many times, they
were incarcerated on suspicion of "subversive
activities", on no evidence but Japanese birth
or ancestry.
Wrong. Please don't make such false statements
when you are so ill-informed. You should
at least qualify your remarks when you don't
know what you are talking about.
Read PL 100-383 and you will see that
it refers to payment for persons of Japanese
ancestry ONLY who were evacuated, relocated,
or INTERNED. Evacuation to relocation camps
was not "internment." Only enemy aliens were
interned and only after they had been arrested
and given individual hearings before an Enemy
Alien Control Boards. Over 16,000 Japanese
Nationals were so interned, including the some
5,000 who renounced their U.S. citizenship and
requested expatriation to fight for Japan
against the U.S.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Those Japanese-Americans who were locked up
on the basis of known pro-Japanese activity,
or recent training in Japan, were excluded,
Wrong. They were given apologies and paid
$20,000 each under PL 100-383.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-10 15:57:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Rich Rostrom
None of the people compensated under PL 100-383
were "arrested during WW II for subversive activities".
Wrong. You are confusing the Japanese enemy
aliens and their American-born children (among
the children were numerous dual citizens) who
were evacuated and relocated with the Japanese
nationals (enemy aliens) who were arrested by the
FBI and send to Dept. of Justice Internment camps.
So, which charges were filed against them, Mr Hopwood? They (like the
German- and Italian) arrestees were potential security risks.
After all, it wasn't a crime to be a member of a German Bundt, or a Japanese
nationalistic society before the war. Those who ACTUALLY were charged were
mostly arrested before the war, and charged.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Rich Rostrom
As you yourself have admitted many times, they
were incarcerated on suspicion of "subversive
activities", on no evidence but Japanese birth
or ancestry.
Wrong. Please don't make such false statements
when you are so ill-informed. You should
Well, goodness, that doesn't even slow YOU down.
Post by w***@aol.com
at least qualify your remarks when you don't
know what you are talking about.
Sez the guy who claims "arrest" doesn't mean "arrest".
Post by w***@aol.com
Read PL 100-383 and you will see that
it refers to payment for persons of Japanese
ancestry ONLY who were evacuated, relocated,
or INTERNED. Evacuation to relocation camps
was not "internment." Only enemy aliens were
Well, actually, US citizens were "interned" as well, putting aside your
nonsensical sensitivity about "internment" vs "forced relocation and
lockup", as you say below, US citizens WERE locked up.
Post by w***@aol.com
Alien Control Boards. Over 16,000 Japanese
Nationals were so interned, including the some
5,000 who renounced their U.S. citizenship and
Wait; according to you (dodgy source), they had no US citizenship to
renounce, did they?

Did it ever occur to you that you have no idea what you're talking about?
Post by w***@aol.com
requested expatriation to fight for Japan
against the U.S.
Well, according to you, none of them were EVER American citizens.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Rich Rostrom
Those Japanese-Americans who were locked up
on the basis of known pro-Japanese activity,
or recent training in Japan, were excluded,
Wrong. They were given apologies and paid
$20,000 each under PL 100-383.
Right; they hadn't actually committed any crime. Still, had the US merely
left it at that, and treated the Japanese community like they treated the
German- and Italian- communities, they wouldn't have had to make such a
public apology.

Mike
w***@aol.com
2013-02-11 01:44:41 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 19:11:35 -0500, "wjhopw..."
Post by w***@aol.com
On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 12:56:54 -0500,
.....when you came back with "they were for real." I
had already said that they were not representative of
Nisei in the US....a little more explanation of your point > might have eliminated this foofooraw and the slur.
You shouldn't be so sensitive. We were discussing
American citizens of Japanese ancestry who had
joined the Japanese armed forces to fight against
the U.S. When you say much the same again, i.e.,
that they "were not representative of Nisei in the
U.S." It wasn't clear how many Nisei you believed
they did NOT represent. Did you mean ALL Nisei?
MOST? A FEW? NONE? How about the renunciant
Nisei who even asked for expatriation to join them in
Japan?
Post by w***@aol.com
Common language routinely assumes "some" if
"all" is not specifically stated...just listen to how
people really talk.
Yes, some people are vague in the way they express
things, but you can do better than that, I'm sure.
Post by w***@aol.com
You have made a career out of claiming that the
rest of the U.S. "stereotyped" the ethnic Japanese
in an unkind way....
I never said it was in an unkind way, I said it was anti-
Asian, untrue to the reality of the Japanese
community, based on lies and distortions.....
And you don't think that was "unkind?"
"adj. un·kind·er, un·kind·est. 1. Lacking
kindness; inconsiderate or unsympathetic.
2. Harsh; severe.."
....it was assumed "a Jap is a Jap" and "the
people wanted them out".
I know you like to quote General DeWitt to make
him look bad, but if you wanted to be fair wouldn't
it be best to quote what he said in full and in
context? With such as this in mind. From the book "Intelligence,
Internment, and Relocation" Keith
Robar--ISBN 1-930662-51-3--- 2000.
"Americans of Japanese ancestry have
honed their attention on General DeWitt with a
vengeance.....Several instances where the general
is supposed to have said, "A Jap is a Jap," are
cited as proof of his racism. They have honed
character assassination
to a fine art....no two quotes are identical....(this was)
the original statement made by DeWitt in the course
of a taped phone coversation with Assistant War
Secretary John McCloy (on) 3 February 1942 at 2 PM.
..DeWitt stated:
'Out here (in California) Mr. Secretary a Jap
is a Jap to these people now."
Bear in mind that General DeWitt was strongly
opposed to evacuating the Nisei because of their U.S. citizenship and
made his views on that clear. But he
has since become the "poster boy" for hatred by the anti-evacuation
crowd for following orders from his
superiors in the War Department. Those superiors
who had been privy to intercepted Japanese messages
by the MAGIC intelligence program, a program for which DeWitt had not
been cleared..
As I previously wrote, historian Arnold Krammer,
noted that there were three major reasons for evacuating
the Japanese as a group, but the Germans and Italians.
None of the reasons were had anyting to do with "racism."
Fantastic! (Literally) Now you're telling us there were
too many Germans and Italians to relocate, so they
could be handled individually but the smaller Japanese
community had to be sent away
Yes, it makes perfect sense. In war, as in most any other situations,
when it is logistically impossible to take one
action but is possible to take another, it would be like
"cutting off one's nose to spite one's face" not to proceed
with what could be done just because it might cause a
few un-informed and/or obsessed ideologues to cry
"racism" unless both groups were identically treated.
So there were more Germans and Italians working in
sensitive locations and occupations, and fewer
Japanese so the Japanese had to go?
That's an over-simplified way to put it but practical
considerations related to how many were involved
in each group was certainly one of the contributing
factors.
It's not a straightforward comparison. Germans and
Italians had been here at least two generations longer
than any Japanese....A more relevant comparison
would be with the second generation of Germans and
Italians whose parents had come at the same time as
the Japanese, the first two decades of the 20th
century.
You're losing me there. When it comes to national
defense it matters little whose grandparents or
parents got here first. What you seem to be hinting
at with regard to persons of enemy heritage is that
some sort of "equal opportunity" program should
have been established, perhaps together with a
race-based "quota" system--a 21st century solution
to the WWII era German/Italian/Japanese resident
ancestry problem. Had we done that, although we
might have lost the war, we would at least have had
the honor of being 70 years ahead of our time.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-11 05:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Throughout these incessant debates, Mr Hopwood brings up what he
considers to be "selling points" for his case that the internment
of all those of Japanese descent on the West Coast was not driven
by racism, but by "military necessity". In the various incarnations
of his arguments over the years, he claims many things; that there
was an immediate threat from the IJN to the West Coast, that no
such threat existed from the Kriegsmarine on the East Coast, that
the "current" interpretation of the action as "racist" was absent
"at the time" the decision was made, etc.

I'll only address these particular points in this post; other points
have been addressed in the past, and no doubt will be in the future
(though, to be fair, these points have been addressed as well) but I
thought I'd throw some light on the points above.

Mr Hopwood's contention that the IJN posed a threat to the West
Coast but the Kriegsmarine did not pose a similar threat to the
East is trivially dismissed by a cursory reading of the losses on
those respective coasts due to enemy action. Among the sources for
this would be www.usmm.org.

In particular
http://www.usmm.org/eastgulf.html#anchor473040
and
http://www.usmm.org/pacific.html#anchor444903
are of interest.

In the first six months of the war, German Uboats sank over 600
allied ships off the eastern seaboard and Caribbean and Gulf coasts
in the first 6 months of the war, accounting for roughly 25% of
allied losses for the whole war. The Germans in fact referred to
this as the "Second Happy Time". For the entire war, about 5 ships
were lost to IJN subs on the West Coast, the last attack in October
of 1942. German subs, by contrast, operated on the East Coast
throughout the war, the Black Point being sunk only 4 miles off
Newport, Rhode Island on May 5, 1945. Uboats shelled oil facilities
in the Caribbean, including Aruba, sunk ships in the mouth of the
Mississippi River, and operated throughout the western Atlantic the
entire war.

I'll leave it to our Canadian readers to describe the Battle of the
St Lawrence, except to point out that it, too, lasted most of the
war. In both the US and Canada, the Germans put agents ashore on
several occassions, from Florida to Maine, and some in Canada as
well. An automatic weather station was set up by the Germans off
Newfoundland in October, 1943. Most of these agents had at one
point or another lived in the US. One was a US citizen, and another
had an American wife. Nothing of the sort was even attempted by the
Japanese.

To sum up, the threat of the Axis to the West Coast was exaggerated,
if not outright imaginary. To the East Coast, it was very real, and
extended from Canada, to Florida, and into the Caribbean and the
Gulf Coast. The threat there lasted throughout the war, and took
place within sight of US cities. Yet, the military authorities did
not believe it necessary to relocate, much less intern all those
of German descent, or even all German nationals.

Mr Hopwood, also makes a big deal about the Korematsu case, saying
it "still stands", and shows the "military necessity" of the
internment. However, after looking into it, it is difficult to see
how this can be argued. Korematsu was born in Oakland, Ca, and
lived his entire life there. His parents had been in the US since
1905, US residents for over 35 years by the time of Pearl Harbor.
He was on his HS swim and tennis teams, had a white girlfriend, and
reported for duty when called for duty (USN rejected him due to
stomach ulcers.) By any measure, he was as "assimilated" as any
"German" American. When orded to leave the area by DeWitt's fiat,
he underwent plastic surgery to try to look less Japanese. He was
arrested for violating the exclusion order.

The decision itself was 6-3 in favor of the military's right to
exclude a racial group from a given area. Justice Hugo Black
denied that the decision had anything to do with racial prejudice;
however, Justice Black, who wrote the opinion, was a member of the KKK.
His might not have been an unbiased opinion. William Douglas voted with
the majority, but in his later career grew to become an advocate of
individual rights, and acknowledged that his vote was wrong (there
was apparently evidence that he vacillated on his vote until almost
the last minute.)

In dissent, both Murphy and Jackson explicitly cited racism.
Murphy:
"I dissent, therefore, from this legalization of racism. Racial
discrimination in any form and in any degree has no justifiable
part whatever in our democratic way of life. It is unattractive in
any setting, but it is utterly revolting among a free people who
have embraced the principles set forth in the Constitution of the
United States. All residents of this nation are kin in some way by
blood or culture to a foreign land. "

Jackson:
"I dissent, therefore, from this legalization of racism. Racial
discrimination in any form and in any degree has no justifiable
part whatever in our democratic way of life. It is unattractive in
any setting, but it is utterly revolting among a free people who
have embraced the principles set forth in the Constitution of the
United States. All residents of this nation are kin in some way by
blood or culture to a foreign land... But here is an attempt to
make an otherwise innocent act a crime merely because this prisoner
is the son of parents as to whom he had no choice, and belongs to
a race from which there is no way to resign."

Roberts wrote:
"a relocation center "was a euphemism for prison" and that the internment
was based on "half-truths" by people with racial prejudices. And called it
"case of convicting a citizen as a punishment for not submitting to
imprisonment in a concentration camp, based on his ancestry, and solely
because of his ancestry."

Very clearly, the 3 dissenters were addressing racism in the decision at the
time. It was not a "modern day" phenomenon. Indeed, Justice Black addressed
the racial aspects
"Korematsu was not excluded from the Military Area because of hostility
to him or his race. He was excluded because we are at war with the
Japanese Empire,"

Of course, Black's denial of it being a racist decision is kinda refuted by
his own statement that there was no difference between Japanese over there
and Americans of Japanese descent here. But it is undeniable that the, too,
was addressing racial aspects of the case (even if, as noted, through the
lenses of a former KKK member.)

Perhaps Mr Hopwood wasn't really there "at the time"...

As for Mr Hopwood's declaration that the decision "still stands", well,
only sort of. In 2011, Solicitor General Katyal denounced Fahy (SG
under FDR) for having deliberately suppressed evidence in the case.
While the ruling still stands, this means the decision cannot be used
as a precedent. I don't know of a similar case.

I realize that no amount of data will sway Mr Hopwood. And, of course,
he'll insist that the German navy's efforts on the East Coast were
laughable, or ignore them, and insist that decision still stands. Still,
I thought the above interesting enough and relevant to the discussion. And
I'd like to hear more about the Battle of the St Lawerence.

Mike
w***@aol.com
2013-02-11 20:51:58 UTC
Permalink
....Mr Hopwood..claims.. that there...was an
immediate threat from the IJN to the West Coast,
Because of incorrect charges such as the above,
and other manifestations of the questionable
intellectual integrity of the poster, I don't, as a rule,
read or respond to his posts.
Over the years, they have been noteworthy
for their incoherent, poorly edited style, along with
their false information and routine use of personal
attacks against those with whom he disagrees.
This one is no exception from the "false
information" standpoint, but the unusual degree of
civility is so uncharacteristic as to suggest that
perhaps it may have been witten by a surrogate.
(Mr. Kirkman, have you been working
overtime lately?)

Be that as it may, let'a get to the false points
...Mr. Hopwood...claims...that there...was an
immediate threat from the IJN to the West Coast,
A disingenuos statenent. What i have consistently stated
is that because of the intelligence available to them,
(including the MAGIC intercepts in which the Japanese
themselves confirmed subversive acts by U.S.residents
of Japanese ancestry) those who made the evacuation
decision believed that the concentration of Japanese
enemy aliens and dual citizens were a threat to national
security on the West Coast.
that no such threat existed from the Kriegsmarine on the
East Coast,
False. It has constently been my contention that there
was no threat of attack from Germany or Italy on the
WEST COAST. I have never minimized the U-Boat
problem along the East Coast..
that the "current" interpretation of the action as "racist"
was absent "at the time" the decision was made, etc.
Yes. It has been my contention that the evacuation
decision was made for military reasons. Not because
of race. Some who claim that the evacuation was
motivated by "racism" confuse race with nationality.
I'll only address these particular points in this post;
What follows is a long lecture about the U-boat threat
to the East Coast which is completely superfluous to
the range of this discussion.
To sum up, the threat of the Axis to the West Coast was
exaggerated, if not outright imaginary.
It didn't seem so at the time. It is pure speculation and
nothing more than "the calm perspective of hindsight"
to now contend that the security action taken (including
the evacuation of PJAs) had nothing to do with the fact
that Japan did not attack the West Coast According to
historian, John J. Stephan, perhaps one of the world's
most knowledgeable students of Japanese war plans,
after their success at Pearl Harbor, Yamamoto and
other Japanese officers considered an invasion of
Hawaii and the possibility of hostile action against the
U.S. West Coast, which, after the U.S. victory at Midway,
they could never carry out.
Mr Hopwood, also makes a big deal about the
Korematsu case, saying it "still stands", and shows
the "military necessity"
of the internment.
Of course it still stands and it had nothing to do
with Mr. Fester's belief that "it shows the military
necessity of the internment," which I never said.
What it did show was the Constitutionality of the
evacuation. Some of the uninformed seem to
believe that a "coram nobis" case decades later
(which the government chose not to defend) had
overturned the Supreme Court's 1944 decision in
the Korematsu case. It did not. The later case
merely vacated Korematsu's conviction on the
original charge. .
Very clearly, the 3 dissenters were addressing racism
in the decision at the time
So what? The 6 others overruled them. SC cases
are decided by what the majority of the justices say,
not the minority. This one was a 2/3rds majority.
Solicitor General Katyal denounced Fahy (SG
under FDR) for having deliberately suppressed
evidence in the case.
That was 60 years later and Katyal misspoke, as the
records reveal. No evidence was suppressed. The
two items in question were never legitimate evidence.
While the ruling still stands, this means the decision
cannot be used as a precedent.
Pure nonsense. Any Supreme Court decision can be
used as a precedent.

WJH
Rich Rostrom
2013-02-11 22:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
(including the MAGIC intercepts in which the Japanese
themselves confirmed subversive acts by U.S. residents
of Japanese ancestry)
What specific "subversive acts by U.S. residents
of Japanese ancestry" were confirmed by MAGIC
intelligence? All the messages that have been
quoted refer only to generalized claims that
unnamed Japanese-Americans had been recruited
for espionage or sabotage.
Post by w***@aol.com
Any Supreme Court decision can be used as a precedent.
Scott v. Sanderson?
Plessy v. Ferguson?
Buck v. Bell?
U.S. v. Miller?
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-12 05:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
....Mr Hopwood..claims.. that there...was an
immediate threat from the IJN to the West Coast,
Because of incorrect charges such as the above,
Sorry, you meant "correct".

See, the Japanese could not mount an attack on the West Coast, Mr
Hopwood. Indeed, PH pushed them to their limit. They had a carrier
gourp,
Post by w***@aol.com
...Mr. Hopwood...claims...that there...was an
immediate threat from the IJN to the West Coast,
A disingenuos statenent.
Actually, you have flatly stated this. You used this to contrast this
with the lack of threat by the Germans on the East Coast. However, the
Germans sank hundreds of ships on the East and Gulf Coasts in the
first six months of the war. The Japanese didn't do that well
throughout the ENTIRE war on the West Coast, did they, Mr Hopwood?

The German put agents ashore from Florida to Canada; the Japanese
did no such thing on the West.

Yet you have stated that the threat to the West was much greater than
the German threat to the East, and that that was among the justifications
for interning all the nisei/sansei/issei.
Post by w***@aol.com
is that because of the intelligence available to them,
The intelligence available to them allowed them to identify potential
subversives almost immediately. After that, there was not a single
act of espionage or sabatoge was identified among the "Japanese"
community while they were still on the West Coast.
Post by w***@aol.com
(including the MAGIC intercepts in which the Japanese
themselves confirmed subversive acts by U.S.residents
of Japanese ancestry) those who made the evacuation
Which specific subversive act was confirmed by MAGIC, Mr Hopwood? Now, you
pretend to be very good with language, so since you didn't write "the
Japanese themselves PLANNED (or EXPECTED) subversive acts", you must
have intercepts indicating actual ACTS of subversion performed by
the Japanese community. Which "subversive acts" were confirmed by
MAGIC on the West Coast? Which acts of sabatoge were confirmed by
MAGIC?

Now, there WERE such acts in Hawaii, but those were carried out by an
actual Japanese agent, and Hawaii isn't the West Coast.
Post by w***@aol.com
that no such threat existed from the Kriegsmarine on the
East Coast,
False. It has constently been my contention that there
was no threat of attack from Germany or Italy on the
No, that's quite true. However, the Kreigsmarine posed an immediate and
great threat to the East Coast, yet nobody thought it a good idea to
immediately lock up all the Germans, much less all the German-Americans.

Why is that? Oh, yeah, because, according to you, it would be "hard".
Post by w***@aol.com
I have never minimized the U-Boat
problem along the East Coast..
Actually, you have ignrored it, as it refutes, rather than supports
your position.
Post by w***@aol.com
that the "current" interpretation of the action as "racist"
was absent "at the time" the decision was made, etc.
Yes.
And you are wrong, as shown in the wording of the various opinions
in the Korematsu case. All three dissenting opinions specifically
mentioned race as the overriding factor in the decision. Even Black
mentioned race in his opinion. Of course, he said it wasn't an issue,
but then he was a member of the KKK, so his opinion would not necessarily
be unbiased.
Post by w***@aol.com
From Murphy
"I dissent, therefore, from this legalization of racism. Racial
discrimination in any form and in any degree has no justifiable
part whatever in our democratic way of life. It is unattractive in
any setting, but it is utterly revolting among a free people who
have embraced the principles set forth in the Constitution of the
United States. All residents of this nation are kin in some way by
blood or culture to a foreign land. "

Jackson:
"I dissent, therefore, from this legalization of racism. Racial
discrimination in any form and in any degree has no justifiable
part whatever in our democratic way of life. It is unattractive in
any setting, but it is utterly revolting among a free people who
have embraced the principles set forth in the Constitution of the
United States. All residents of this nation are kin in some way by
blood or culture to a foreign land... But here is an attempt to
make an otherwise innocent act a crime merely because this prisoner
is the son of parents as to whom he had no choice, and belongs to
a race from which there is no way to resign."

Roberts wrote:
"a relocation center "was a euphemism for prison" and that the internment
was based on "half-truths" by people with racial prejudices. And called it
"case of convicting a citizen as a punishment for not submitting to
imprisonment in a concentration camp, based on his ancestry, and solely
because of his ancestry."

Again, slowly, all three dissenters clearly mention "race". Black, we've
already dealt with. So no, Mr Hopwood, it is NOT the case that "race"
is a modern twist on the case. It was discussed AT THE TIME, Mr Hopwood.

You somehow missed it.
Post by w***@aol.com
I'll only address these particular points in this post;
What follows is a long lecture about the U-boat threat
to the East Coast which is completely superfluous to
the range of this discussion.
No, you
Post by w***@aol.com
To sum up, the threat of the Axis to the West Coast was
exaggerated, if not outright imaginary.
It didn't seem so at the time.
Well, yes it did.

You see, Mr Hopwood, the Germans were immediately sinking ships on
the East Coast, but the Japanese were doing nothing of the sort on
the West Coast. Yet somehow those on the East Coast didn't see the
need to lock up all the Germans or Italians, or anyone, for that matter.

The Japanese were not able to put agents ashore. They did not sink
ships within sight of major US cities. They would lose the best part
of their fleet within 6 months, well away from US shores.

No, Mr Hopwood, the danger was imaginary to the West Coast, and again,
no actions by the nisei were detected to attempt to help the Japanese
effort on the West Coast.
Post by w***@aol.com
Mr Hopwood, also makes a big deal about the
Korematsu case, saying it "still stands", and shows
the "military necessity"
of the internment.
Of course it still stands and it had nothing to do
Well, only sorta. As there was finding that the Solicitor General
withheld evidence. As such, it is no longer a precedent.
Post by w***@aol.com
Very clearly, the 3 dissenters were addressing racism
in the decision at the time
So what?
Sorry, again, slowly...

it was YOUR claim that charges of racism are a modern phennomenon. Yet
there in the decision are direct statements calling the action racist.
Did you really live through these times? Seems you have "forgotten" a
lot.
Post by w***@aol.com
Solicitor General Katyal denounced Fahy (SG
under FDR) for having deliberately suppressed
evidence in the case.
That was 60 years later and Katyal misspoke, as the
Well, no, he didn't. He was quite clear on the matter.
Post by w***@aol.com
While the ruling still stands, this means the decision
cannot be used as a precedent.
Pure nonsense.
Well, no. I actually ran that by a couple lawyers.

Mike
Rich Rostrom
2013-02-11 21:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Mr Hopwood's contention that the IJN posed a threat to the West
Coast but the Kriegsmarine did not pose a similar threat to the
East is trivially dismissed by a cursory reading of the losses on
those respective coasts due to enemy action.
To be fair - and just barely fair...

Japan posed threats of attack on the West Coast which
the European Axis could not pose against the East
Coast - the threats of carrier air raid or invasion.
Both were remote, and logistically impossible in
practice, but Japan did have a powerful carrier fleet,
and a full scale battle fleet which equalled the
Allied Pacific fleets. In the immediate wake of Pearl
Harbor, the Japanese fleet was superior to the Allied
Pacific fleets.

The European Axis had no carriers, and its small
battle fleet was already thoroughly crippled and
contained by Allied navies. Thus, the European Axis
threat was confined to attacks on ships at sea. This
threat was actually executed, with considerable
damage. But it was a threat of a different, and
fundamentally less dangerous quality - it stopped
cold at the water's edge.

However, by May 1942, it was pretty clear that there
was no threat to the U.S. West Coast from direct
Japanese attack, and not even much threat of attack
on Allied shipping off the West Coast.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-12 05:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Mr Hopwood's contention that the IJN posed a threat to the West
Coast but the Kriegsmarine did not pose a similar threat to the
East is trivially dismissed by a cursory reading of the losses on
those respective coasts due to enemy action.
To be fair - and just barely fair...
Japan posed threats of attack on the West Coast which
the European Axis could not pose against the East
Coast - the threats of carrier air raid or invasion.
Both were remote, and logistically impossible in
practice, but Japan did have a powerful carrier fleet,
and a full scale battle fleet which equalled the
Allied Pacific fleets. In the immediate wake of Pearl
Harbor, the Japanese fleet was superior to the Allied
Pacific fleets.
Yes, but they really didn't have any way to get them in a position
to threaten the West Coast. I don't see how they could have projected
their fleet any further than they did for the PH attack.

They COULD have formed a fairly decent threat with their subs, not
as effective as the German threat to the East, but certain a
troublesome obstacle. But given their philosophy of attacking warships
over shipping, they weren't going to make good use of the threat.

Mike
The Horny Goat
2013-02-12 14:13:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:59:59 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
To be fair - and just barely fair...
Japan posed threats of attack on the West Coast which
the European Axis could not pose against the East
Coast - the threats of carrier air raid or invasion.
Both were remote, and logistically impossible in
practice, but Japan did have a powerful carrier fleet,
and a full scale battle fleet which equalled the
Allied Pacific fleets. In the immediate wake of Pearl
Harbor, the Japanese fleet was superior to the Allied
Pacific fleets.
With respect, the Kriegsmarine sunk a great deal more shipping in the
Gulf of St.Lawrence (not to mention the US east coast) than the IJN
ever achieved within 1000 miles of the west coast.

The ONLY attacks on the west coast was the machine gunning of a
lighthouse on Vancouver Island. Kiska and Attu were taken as part of
the Midway battle but they were far distant from population centers.
Even Dutch Harbor (which had one or two air raids) could not
reasonably have been used as a base for an invasion of British
Columbia or the US west coast.

I'd go so far as to say that if you give the Japanese 50,000 men
fully supplied in Anchorage (!) they STILL don't reach the population
centers of British Columbia or the US Northwest and THAT is
dramatically less likely than 50000 fully supplied Germans in Cornwall
in September 1940.

(i.e. wouldn't happen even in Hitler's or Tojo's brightest fantasies)

One thing I think the Japanese COULD have done was to position one or
more submarines at the western mouth of the Panama Canal planning on
deliberately scuttling themselves on December 7th/8th 1941 with a goal
of preventing use of the canal for 4 to 6 months. Similarly the
Canadian Pacific Railway connecting British Columbia with the rest of
Canada was highly vulnerable to sabotage at numerous places where
repair would be unlikely to take less than a year - 10 men with
explosives would have had little difficulty laying charges inside or
near tunnels - and despite having been at war since September 1939,
the Canadian west coast was largely undefended before Pearl Harbor.
One Japanese controlled fishing trawler could easily have carried
enough explosives to do a lot of damage particularly if emplaced
pre-12/7/1941.

But all of this is sabotage - logistically there was NO serious chance
of the Japanese supporting any invasion of the North American mainland
outside Alaska much less a successful invasion in numbers to take and
hold a significant portion of the mainland for any militarily
significant period of time.
Rich Rostrom
2013-02-12 17:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:59:59 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Japan posed threats of attack on the West Coast which
the European Axis could not pose against the East
Coast - the threats of carrier air raid or invasion.
With respect, the Kriegsmarine sunk a great deal more shipping in the
Gulf of St.Lawrence (not to mention the US east coast) than the IJN
ever achieved within 1000 miles of the west coast...
That's because the Japanese didn't even try.

It's already noted that the European Axis could
and did attack Allied shipping in the Western
Atlantic and right up to the shores of North
America.

My point was that it was physically impossible for
European Axis forces to reach on to land in North
America, whereas Japan, with its full size battle
fleet, had at least the theoretical ability to attack
on to land.

Give the Germans a thousand Type XXI subs, so that
they can sink every Allied freighter in the Atlantic -
still no German soldier can set foot in in the U.S. or
Canada, nor any German plane fly over.

But the Japanese, at least in theory, could control
the Pacific, allowing Japanese carriers to sit off
the coast and send bombers against targets on land,
or Japanese troopships to cross the ocean and land
troops, occupying U.S. or Canadian territory.

One threat is painful - the other is existential
(though far more remote).
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Michael Emrys
2013-02-13 05:01:02 UTC
Permalink
But the Japanese, at least in theory, could control the Pacific,
allowing Japanese carriers to sit off the coast...
Sitting off the coast is very likely all they would have done after
running out of bunker oil and avgas. Then shortly thereafter they would
likely have been sitting on the ocean's bottom. They barely had enough
refueling support to get to the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands and
launch two air strikes plus enough avgas to defend themselves on the way
back.

Michael
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-13 05:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:59:59 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Japan posed threats of attack on the West Coast which
the European Axis could not pose against the East
Coast - the threats of carrier air raid or invasion.
With respect, the Kriegsmarine sunk a great deal more shipping in the
Gulf of St.Lawrence (not to mention the US east coast) than the IJN
ever achieved within 1000 miles of the west coast...
That's because the Japanese didn't even try.
Yeah. They didn't really try to sink merchant shipping pretty much
throughout the war.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Give the Germans a thousand Type XXI subs, so that
they can sink every Allied freighter in the Atlantic -
still no German soldier can set foot in in the U.S. or
Canada, nor any German plane fly over.
They did put ashore 10 agents at various times in the war, and a few more
in Canada.
Post by Rich Rostrom
But the Japanese, at least in theory, could control
the Pacific, allowing Japanese carriers to sit off
the coast and send bombers against targets on land,
or Japanese troopships to cross the ocean and land
troops, occupying U.S. or Canadian territory.
I don't think the carriers had the range to get the bombers within range
of the West Coast, even if they'd been foolish enough to try.

The had the subs to put agents ashore, though, and didn't. In fact, they
could have put German or Italian agents ashore, but didn't try that,
either.

Mike

w***@aol.com
2013-02-12 21:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
One thing I think the Japanese COULD have
done was to position one or more submarines
at the western mouth of the Panama Canal
planning on deliberately scuttling themselves
on December 7th/8th 1941 with a goal of
preventing use of the canal for 4 to 6 months.
It is not likely that this would have been successful.
Tensions between Japan and the U.S. had become
very tight by December of 1941 and the high-priority
military importance of the Panama Canal was well-
known to the U.S., which already had in place what
were considered adequate measures to protect not
only the Canal's Caribbean and Pacific approaches,
but its Locks and their surrounding land within the
Canal Zone as well..
First, a sub intent on such a mission would
have been lucky to get anywhere close to the
Canal Zone before being detected. The USAAF
and Navy already had air and sea patrols reaching
far at sea forming a formidable protective screen.
But there were other factors to discourage
such a plan as well. The approach depth of rhe
channel leading through the Bay of Panama on the
Pacific side was 45 feet at low tide, and that was
inland at the entrance of the first Pacific-side lock
(Miraflores).
From that point the bottom sloped outward
to greater depths as rhe ship channel led to
a breakwater which ran for well over a mile to
meet the Pacific Ocean. Any sub scuttled along that
route would thus have ended up in water too deep for
it to have had little if any effect in blockage to shipping.
I think the IJN realized all this and that's
why they never made any such sub-scuttling attempt,
at least that we know of.

WJH
w***@aol.com
2013-02-12 18:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Mr Hopwood's contention that the IJN posed a
threat to the West Coast but the Kriegsmarine
did not pose a similar threat to the
East....
mtfes was wrong. Mr.Hopwood contended
no such thing. On the contrary, to have been
correct, the above sentence should
have said: "It was Mr. Hopwood's
contention that after PH it was feared that
the IJN posed a threat to the West Coast,
but believed that neither Germany nor Italy
posed any threat to the WEST COAST. "
Post by Rich Rostrom
Japan posed threats of attack on the West
Coast which the European Axis could not
pose against the East Coast -
That's true. On the East Coast the threat was
caused by German U-boats which caused
numerous sinkings along coastal routes for a
period of about 6-8 months after Germany had
declared war on the U.S.,
German U-boats operated openly along
the Atlantic and Gulf coasts and it was not
until late in 1942 when more U.S. anti-submarine
aircraft had become available and coastal escorts
organized that the situation had begun to improve.
In the North Atlantic, by early summer
of 1942 convoy routes had been shifted further
toward the south and an improved escort area
assignment system had been worked out
between the U.S., Canada, and Great Britain,
and a decline in sinkings began to occur.
Post by Rich Rostrom
.... by May 1942, it was pretty clear that there
was no threat to the U.S. West Coast from direct
Japanese attack, and not even much threat of
attack on Allied shipping off the West Coast.
I'd say it was really after the victory at Midway in
early June of 1942 before concern about threats to
the U.S. West Coast began to recede but not
entirely because Japanese submarine attacks on
shipping were sporadic and there were occasional
shelling of shore facilities until as late as October
of 1942.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-13 05:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Mr Hopwood's contention that the IJN posed a
threat to the West Coast but the Kriegsmarine
did not pose a similar threat to the
East....
mtfes was wrong. Mr.Hopwood contended
"I believe that's a atretch. Perhaps you confuse the
many East Coast training bases and troops
associated with them with "covering positions."
There was no fear of Germany or Italy other than of
the U-Boats and most of that was under control
after mid 1942."

Oh, and about agents shore?

"No. You exaggerate. There were only 6 Germans. All
of them found within a couple of days, found guilty by
a military tribunal and 6 of them executed. That was
a comic opera from the git go."

Which was wrong, of course.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Rich Rostrom
Japan posed threats of attack on the West
Coast which the European Axis could not
pose against the East Coast -
That's true.
Well, no, it isn't.

The Japanese could not get their carriers into position to threaten the
West Coast, and didn't have the number of subs to offer the same threat
to the West Coast the Germans could to the East.
Post by w***@aol.com
caused by German U-boats which caused
numerous sinkings along coastal routes for a
period of about 6-8 months after Germany had
declared war on the U.S.,
Well, actually, they continued up and down the coast until a few days
before the end of the war.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Rich Rostrom
.... by May 1942, it was pretty clear that there
was no threat to the U.S. West Coast from direct
Japanese attack, and not even much threat of
attack on Allied shipping off the West Coast.
I'd say it was really after the victory at Midway in
early June of 1942 before concern about threats to
the U.S. West Coast began to recede but not
And yet the nisei remained locked away for "military necessity".
Post by w***@aol.com
entirely because Japanese submarine attacks on
shipping were sporadic and there were occasional
shelling of shore facilities until as late as October
of 1942.
If by "sporadic" you meant "almost non-existent", you would be correct.

However, the Germans continued to sink ships along the coast throughout
the war, your misunderstandings to the contrary.

Mike
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-11 06:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 19:11:35 -0500, "wjhopw..."
had already said that they were not representative of
Nisei in the US....a little more explanation of your point
might have eliminated this foofooraw and the slur.
You shouldn't be so sensitive. We were discussing
American citizens of Japanese ancestry who had
joined the Japanese armed forces to fight against
the U.S. When you say much the same again, i.e.,
that they "were not representative of Nisei in the
U.S." It wasn't clear how many Nisei you believed
Sorry, are you really so dense? (Yes.) Clearly, those who stayed in Japan
are not the same as those who did not.

Are the words too large? The concept that subtle?
Post by w***@aol.com
"all" is not specifically stated...just listen to how
people really talk.
Yes, some people are vague in the way they express
As in when you fail to distinguish between dual citizens and US citizens only?
Post by w***@aol.com
....it was assumed "a Jap is a Jap" and "the
people wanted them out".
I know you like to quote General DeWitt to make
him look bad, but if you wanted to be fair wouldn't
Yes, how horrible to use a person's words to evaluate him.
Post by w***@aol.com
'Out here (in California) Mr. Secretary a Jap
is a Jap to these people now."
Uh, you seem to have mysteriously missed a quote:

"A Jap's a Jap whether he's an American citizen or not. I don't want any
of them."

He oddly isn't talking about "these people".

Are you unlcear on the use of the word "I"?
Post by w***@aol.com
Bear in mind that General DeWitt was strongly
opposed to evacuating the Nisei because of their U.S. citizenship and
made his views on that clear.
"I don't want any of them [persons of Japanese ancestry] here. They are
a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty... It
makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still
a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine
loyalty... But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he
is wiped off the map."
Post by w***@aol.com
As I previously wrote, historian Arnold Krammer,
noted that there were three major reasons for evacuating
the Japanese as a group, but the Germans and Italians.
None of the reasons were had anyting to do with "racism."
And as you now write, DeWitt didn't believe "a Jap is a Jap".

So, you're not really a reliable authority, are you?
Post by w***@aol.com
Fantastic! (Literally) Now you're telling us there were
too many Germans and Italians to relocate, so they
could be handled individually but the smaller Japanese
community had to be sent away
Yes, it makes perfect sense.
Well, if you're really, really stupid, it might.
Post by w***@aol.com
In war, as in most any other situations,
when it is logistically impossible to take one
action but is possible to take another, it would be like
So, when you previously claimed the interned Germans and Italians were
screened on an individual basis, you lied?
Post by w***@aol.com
with what could be done just because it might cause a
few un-informed and/or obsessed ideologues to cry
"racism" unless both groups were identically treated.
Yeah; damn definitions...
Post by w***@aol.com
So there were more Germans and Italians working in
sensitive locations and occupations, and fewer
Japanese so the Japanese had to go?
That's an over-simplified way to put it but practical
And that's a dodge on your part; duly noted.
Post by w***@aol.com
You're losing me there. When it comes to national
defense it matters little whose grandparents or
parents got here first. What you seem to be hinting
at with regard to persons of enemy heritage is that
some sort of "equal opportunity" program should
have been established, perhaps together with a
race-based "quota" system--a 21st century solution
to the WWII era German/Italian/Japanese resident
ancestry problem. Had we done that, although we
might have lost the war, we would at least have had
the honor of being 70 years ahead of our time.
Do you SERIOUSLY believe that treating the nisei like other US citizens
could have caused the US to lose the war? What year were you born? You
could not have been alive "at the time" and seriously believe that. You
sound much more like a child of the Reagan years than the Great Depression.

Ever hear of D-Day? Hiroshima? Dresden? Nagasaki? Tokyo? Battle of the
Atlantic? Which of those was going to be reversed by disloyal nisei? Midway?
Guadalcanal? Leyte? Pick one, Mr Hopwood.

No, there was no way we were going to lose that war, Mr Hopwood. Perhaps
you should read up a bit on the war, in your copious spare time.

Mike
Rich Rostrom
2013-02-11 23:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Fantastic! (Literally) Now you're telling us there were
too many Germans and Italians to relocate, so they
could be handled individually but the smaller Japanese
community had to be sent away
Yes, it makes perfect sense. In war, as in most any other situations,
when it is logistically impossible to take one
action but is possible to take another...
There is a question which I have never seen answered
or even addressed by defenders of the mass
internment of Japanese-Americans, which would
seem to be highly relevant to this "explanation".

We start with the fact that there were people in the
U.S. who were associated with countries with which the
U.S. was now at war in various ways.

Some were visiting or resident aliens from those
countries. Some were naturalized immigrants from those
countries. Some were descended from the peoples of
those countries.

Among all these groups and subgroups, there were
individuals known to be sympathetic to the
governments of their native or ancestral countries,
which were at war with the U.S. This suggested that
other members of these groups could also be such
sympathizers. There was good reason to think that
such sympathizers might engage in espionage or
sabotage against the United States.

Thus, members of these groups constituted a
security risk.

The risk posed by these people varied with where
they lived and worked. Those who lived near
military and transport facilities most directly
involved in current war activity posed the most
danger; those living in rural areas remote from
any key military or transport facility posed
much less danger.

So the "matrix" of these people has several
dimensions.

There is legal status: visiting alien, resident
alien, naturalized citizen, or natural born citizen.

There is nationality: German, Italian, or Japanese
(or Romanian or Hungarian).

There is location: immediate vicinity of a key
facility, general area of some key facility, or
not near a key facility.

Now, the ideal policy would have been to evaluate
each person in all of the categories and subcategories
individually, and to intern or arrest only those
persons who had been individually determined to
be a real or potential threat.

But it is stated that for one category, there were
too many people to evaluate individually, so the
entire group had to be locked up en masse. That
category was "Japanese-Americans".

Other, similar categories (German-Americans and
Italian-Americans) were not so treated.

It is said, in explanation of this difference,
is that these other categories were too numerous.

My question is: why should people be treated as
irreducible groups by _these_ categories, rather
than others? It was impractical to intern or
(or "evacuate") all <enemy-nation>-Americans,
therefore only some were. Why make that division
by national ancestry, rather than location or status?

Why "all Japanese-Americans", and not, say, "all <enemy>-
Americans living within two miles of key facilities"?

The historic answer is obvious - but embarrassing.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Don Kirkman
2013-02-07 23:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
My third source was Walter Lippmann
...(who) discussed his belief that the common man
often failed to understand the real state of the world...
Interesting that you would seem to adhere to the
thinking of Walter Lippman,
"Seem to" is a sheer guess, and an incorrect one. His defining a
social phenomenon ("stereotyping") doesn't strike me as being related
to his personal or public support of public policies; consider the
content of his definition, which he published his definition in 1922;
that certainly doesn't bear on his thoughts about the relocation.
Post by w***@aol.com
Lippmann seems to be relevant to much of the discussion
in this group.
Yes, but for reasons other than you appear to believe.
No, but for what he actually wrote at the time, not for anything he
may have said or done later. It's important to consider the order of
events in history.

I never implied he was relevant for anything other than defining
stereotyping. If he did support the relocation himself later on, that
doesn't negate the accuracy of his definition--and I did expand on the
basics of his definition.
Post by w***@aol.com
(W.J.Hopwood wrote:)
Post by w***@aol.com
Well, first you have to know understand what is meant
by the term "assimilation."
Oh, I do know what it means. Apparently you don't.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
I believe this definition fits
nicely: " sociology: the merging of cultural traits from
previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological
amalgamation."
Why don't you take that up with Google or its sources?
No, it's your source(s) I'm asking for, not Google's.
Asked and answered.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
Then the definition of the word "trait." A
common one is "trait: A genetically determined
characteristic."
If it's common perhaps you could provide two or three
sources where it's defined in those or equivalent terms.
Try providing your relevant sources, since you marked that as a
quotation.
Post by w***@aol.com
Try Google again. There are many sources there.
As far as i could see they had a common thread. If
you don't like it, take it up with Google, not me.
Is it that hard to defend your definitions by showing where you got
them? You claimed that one is common, so let's see how common it is.
Post by w***@aol.com
You are nitpicking to cover an absence of logic.
Just calling me "racist" in your frustration at having to
cover up the facts
I have already said that nothing you wrote in this section is a fact.
The whole section is a fabric of conjectures like "perhaps went to
high school or college." That doesn't pass for evidence for
historical events.
Post by w***@aol.com
So in your view they were sneaky enough to become outwardly
adapted to US customs and society but still maintain their loyalty
Japan? .
You continue to make up nonsense
No, I'm pointing out the nonsense you had written to cover the fact
that your entire section on how the Japanese had assimilated to
American customs while remaining loyal to Japan is nothing more than
suppositions and inferences. If you didn't think they were feigning
their Americanism and maintaining loyalty to Japan you should be
willing to say so.
Post by w***@aol.com
Look the words up. You'll get the idea. Unfortunately,
you appear to have "over-adjusted" to much of the BS
which has become a part of the change you imagine.l
Fortunately for me, before WW II I spent the first six years of my
education in a rural school with 50 or 60 kids in eight grades. During
those years we had kids from at least three Japanese families, a
Chinese family, a Black family, a Native American family, and from
several European country backgrounds. I learned early on that under
the skin we really are all alike.
Post by w***@aol.com
Technically those were really only potential Kibei,
Oh, they were more than "potential." They were for real.
No they were not. The definition, both in Japanese and English, is
specific. The act of returning to one's native country is "kikoku"; a
Japanese born in the US who spent time in Japan and *returns to
America is a "Kibei," since "Kibei" literally means "returned to
America." [http://definitions.uslegal.com/k/kibei/]

Since they never returned they were not Kibei nor were they any part
of the groups that did resist the evacuation, the relocation, the
draft, and the loyalty questions.
Post by w***@aol.com
The only duress those guys knew was the duress they
themselves dished out to other Nisei who refused to go
along with their renunciation campaign at Tule Lake
segregation center.
The duress of incarceration began before the loyalty questions and the
conflict between various groups of Nisei. You may remember that the
first Nisei to Nisei arguments and battles occurred in the camps and
the loyalty questions were even later..
Post by w***@aol.com
My version is that enough of them supported Japan's war effort
in Asia and were engaged in subversive activity in the U.S. to
make them, as a group, of questionable loyalty and a security
risk.
Post by w***@aol.com
.....Simpson and Yinger contend that the Nisei were more
comfortable with other Americans than with their own parents...
Well, there go Simpson and Yinger stereotyping all Nisei.
Common language routinely assumes "some" if "all" is not specifically
stated.
Post by w***@aol.com
Everything you said in the above comment was "stereotyping" of
the three groups.
Your attempt to show stereotyping everywhere you look, now that I've
introduced the topic, is a bit on the ridiculous side. I do know
others who, convinced they have the whole truth, will never accept
anything new, but it is fatal to any intellectual discussion. For the
record, my research and analysis were final before the restitution
question arose as a viable issue.
Post by w***@aol.com
More stereotyping by Simpson and Yinger (and Kirkman).
Look, Ma! He's stereotyping! Make him stop!
Post by w***@aol.com
What's contrary to law and order in stating a fact about
technicalities. They are a part of "law and orde"
But they don't seem to be part of your view of the legal system.

NOBODY has denied that there were disloyal JAs, just as there were
disloyal German and Italian Americans. The difference is how the
Japanese were *treated*, which happened because of a mixture of events
and beliefs.
Post by w***@aol.com
I don't and haven't contended that "all" were, but that it
is indisputable that "some" were.
I don't recall anybody in all these years denying that. However, they
did continue to emphasize that the really suspect ones had been
investigated and removed from society, as well as stressing that the
Japanese not only should have been but could have been handled
individually as the Germans and Italians were.

Under the shock of Pearl Harbor and the haste to lock the country
down, politicians and military alike accepted as reasonable, if not
true, the stereotyped beliefs about the Japanese and resorted to
unprecedented measures that Congress, the President, and most people
in public life later apologized for.
Post by w***@aol.com
That is the bottom line. The emotional clap-trap
which came more than a generation later--the race-based
apologies and financial payments to enemy aliens interned
on FBI charges, the "forgiveness" of disloyal citizens who
renounced their U.S. citizenship to fight for the enemy, the
double-payment to evacuees who had already received
restitution for losses sustained---the excuses and other
"second-guessing" of guilt-ridden ideologues who have
made a career of substituting latter-day obsessions about
race for wartime realities about nationality---all that for the
most part is superfluous nonsense. That's my POV.
Res ipse loquitur
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
w***@aol.com
2013-02-09 00:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Technically those were really only potential Kibei,
Oh, they were more than "potential." They were for real.
No they were not. The definition.... is "kikoku"......
I wasn't referring to the nomenclature. I was referring
to the thousands of American-born of Japanese heritage
who fought for Japan against the U.S. in WWII. In
English the name is "traitor." When you wrote that they
"were really only potential Kibei" I thought you were saying
such persons didn't exist, which would have been in
keeping with your ideological convictions.
.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
.....Simpson and Yinger contend that the Nise..
....there go Simpson and Yinger stereotyping all Nisei.
Common language routinely assumes "some" if "all" is not specifically
stated.
By whose authority? Source please?
Your attempt to show stereotyping everywhere you look, now that I've
introduced the topic, is a bit on the ridiculous side.
No. You have made a career out of claiming that the
rest of the U.S. "stereotyped" the ethnic Japanese in an
unkind way and have done it so often that you don't
realize how much you do it yourself.
NOBODY has denied that there were disloyal JAs..The
difference is how the Japanese were *treated*...
For which there were, according to historian Arnold
Krammer, three major reasons, none of them having
anything to do with race:
(1) Because the Alien Registration Act of 1940
revealed that there were over 1,010,000 German and
Italian nationals and only 91,000 Japanese.(a ratio
of over 10 to 1) plus family members in each category,
such numbers made the evacuation of Germans and
talians logistically impossible but evacuation could be
done with the Japanese. (2) Germans and Italians were
heavily engaged in defense industries as opposed to
the Japanese. (3) The extenr of assimilation into
mainstream American life by Germans and Italians
was far ahead of that of the Japanese.
....the really suspect ones had been investigated and
removed from society....
Not immediately. Only about 3,000 enemy alien Japanse
had been arrested within a short time after Pearl Harbor.
Subsequently throughout the war other arrests and DOJ
internments made until over 16,000 had been interned to
await deportation to Japan when and if possible.
Under the shock of Pearl Harbor and the haste to lock the
country down, politicians and military alike accepted as
reasonable.. unprecedented measures that Congress, the
President, and most people in public life later apologized for...
The apologies and over 2 Billion $$ coming 46 years later,
from another Congress, another President and a new roster of
politicians who had a vested interest in soliciting the votes of a
powerful racial constituency with taxpayer money in a
presidential election year despite substantial public opposition
and a negative recommendation from the Justice Department.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-09 03:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Technically those were really only potential Kibei,
Oh, they were more than "potential." They were for real.
No they were not. The definition.... is "kikoku"......
I wasn't referring to the nomenclature. I was referring
You specifically called the Japanese-Americans who stayed in Japan
"kibei".

This is wrong.
Post by w***@aol.com
English the name is "traitor." When you wrote that they
"were really only potential Kibei" I thought you were saying
such persons didn't exist, which would have been in
keeping with your ideological convictions.
Well, you're less intelligent every post; he specifically stated that
"kibei" would have had to actually return to the US.

And, of course, they had nothing to do with those who were in the US>
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
....there go Simpson and Yinger stereotyping all Nisei.
Common language routinely assumes "some" if "all" is not specifically
stated.
By whose authority? Source please?
Actually, your usage.
Post by w***@aol.com
Your attempt to show stereotyping everywhere you look, now that I've
introduced the topic, is a bit on the ridiculous side.
No. You have made a career out of claiming that the
rest of the U.S. "stereotyped" the ethnic Japanese in an
unkind way
No, he has stated the US treated them wrongly, and the US government
admitted it.
Post by w***@aol.com
NOBODY has denied that there were disloyal JAs..The
difference is how the Japanese were *treated*...
For which there were, according to historian Arnold
Krammer, three major reasons, none of them having
(1) Because the Alien Registration Act of 1940
revealed that there were over 1,010,000 German and
Italian nationals and only 91,000 Japanese.(a ratio
Right; so it would have been much easier to screen the "Japanese".
However, many of what you call "Japanese" were in fact Americans.
Post by w***@aol.com
of over 10 to 1) plus family members in each category,
such numbers made the evacuation of Germans and
talians logistically impossible but evacuation could be
done with the Japanese.
But you have claimed the Germans and Italians were treated on an
individual basis...
Post by w***@aol.com
(2) Germans and Italians were
heavily engaged in defense industries as opposed to
the Japanese.
You know, this is why I IMPLORE you to keep posting; the stupid just hits
new heights with almost every post.

You are now claiming that "Japanese" living NEAR a military or defense
base or industry were security risks, but Germans or Italians WORKING
in those industries were not.

Clearly, you are deluding even yourself, if you expect anyone to take
you seriously on this.
Post by w***@aol.com
(3) The extenr of assimilation into
mainstream American life by Germans and Italians
was far ahead of that of the Japanese.
Then why were there so many who hadn't naturalized?
Post by w***@aol.com
....the really suspect ones had been investigated and
removed from society....
Not immediately. Only about 3,000 enemy alien Japanse
Well, yes, immediately.

As in a couple weeks later.

Waiting longer would have been almost criminally negligent.
Post by w***@aol.com
Under the shock of Pearl Harbor and the haste to lock the
country down, politicians and military alike accepted as
reasonable.. unprecedented measures that Congress, the
President, and most people in public life later apologized for...
The apologies and over 2 Billion $$ coming 46 years later,
from another Congress, another President and a new roster of
Many of those same politicians who had served in various capacities
in that war. George Bush Sr in fact fought the Japanese (you know, the
real ones, not the Americans of Japanese descent.)
Post by w***@aol.com
politicians who had a vested interest in soliciting the votes of a
powerful racial constituency with taxpayer money in a
Yeah, 2nd term Reagan really relied on that vote.

Mike
Don Kirkman
2013-02-09 23:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Technically those were really only potential Kibei,
Oh, they were more than "potential." They were for real.
I wasn't referring to the nomenclature.
It seemed you were when you came back with "they were for real." I
had already said that they were not representative of Nisei in the US
--in reality they had *emigrated* to Japan to follow their Japanese
citizenship. Those who did not emigrate are the only ones relevant to
this discussion of the camps, the questions, the suspicions, the
results.
Post by w***@aol.com
which would have been in
keeping with your ideological convictions.
I could see your point, up to this unnecessary slur because you know
much less than you think you do about my ideological convictions.
Moreover, a little more explanation of your point might have
eliminated this foofooraw and the slur.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Common language routinely assumes "some" if "all" is not specifically
stated.
By whose authority? Source please?
The common people who use their common language in that way. You
don't need a dictionary, just listen to how people really talk.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Your attempt to show stereotyping everywhere you look, now that I've
introduced the topic, is a bit on the ridiculous side.
No. You have made a career out of claiming that the
rest of the U.S. "stereotyped" the ethnic Japanese in an
unkind way and have done it so often that you don't
realize how much you do it yourself.
I never said it was in an unkind way, I said it was anti-Asian, untrue
to the reality of the Japanese community, based on lies and
distortions fomented and disseminated through agencies like labor
unions, politicians, newspapers and journals. And could have added
that it had both directly and indirectly influenced the wartime
decisions and policies regarding the Japanese community. And I could
back it up by 40+ years of slurs and slander in the public media
ranging from newspaper articles to professorial opinions that the
Japanese could not be assimilated and to political policies and
actions because it was assumed "a Jap is a Jap" and "the people wanted
them out".
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
NOBODY has denied that there were disloyal JAs..The
difference is how the Japanese were *treated*...
For which there were, according to historian Arnold
Krammer, three major reasons, none of them having
Fantastic! (Literally) Now you're telling us there were too many
Germans and Italians to relocate, so they could be handled
individually but the smaller Japanese community had to be sent away.
Post by w***@aol.com
(2) Germans and Italians were
heavily engaged in defense industries as opposed to
the Japanese.
So there were more Germans and Italians working in sensitive locations
and occupations, and fewer Japanese so the Japanese had to go?
Post by w***@aol.com
(3) The extenr of assimilation into
mainstream American life by Germans and Italians
was far ahead of that of the Japanese.
It's not a straightforward comparison. Germans and Italians had been
here at least two generations longer than any Japanese (my
ggrandfather came from Germany in 1865). A more relevant comparison
would be with the second generation of Germans and Italians whose
parents had come at the same time as the Japanese, the first two
decades of the 20th century.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Under the shock of Pearl Harbor and the haste to lock the
country down, politicians and military alike accepted as
reasonable.. unprecedented measures that Congress, the
President, and most people in public life later apologized for...
The apologies and over 2 Billion $$ coming 46 years later,
from another Congress, another President and a new roster of
politicians who had a vested interest in soliciting the votes of a
powerful racial constituency with taxpayer money in a
presidential election year despite substantial public opposition
and a negative recommendation from the Justice Department.
A powerful racial constituency with $20,000 each in taxpayer money
(those who either were around themselves or had eligible survivors).
How many votes was that largesse able to buy? How did their funding
compare with the other political groups of the time trying to buy the
same votes?
--
Don Kirkman
***@charter.net
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-02-08 04:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Interesting that you would seem to adhere to the
thinking of Walter Lippman, a strange intellectual
bedfellow for someone with your line of reasoning.
Having another problem with consistency perhaps?
Did you forget or never know that Lippmann was one
the most foremost advocates in the U.S. for the
evacuation of all ethnic Japanese from the West
Coast after Pearl Harbor.
I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess that he knows that, in that
it's been discussed here before.
Post by w***@aol.com
"Personal Justice Denied" described him as
"A prominent intellectually respected syndicated
columnist who wrote of his serious concern about
a Japanese raid on the United States and ....
(that) saboteurs would be native born Nisei as well as
aliens.... (his views) taken as a recommendation
to exclude all ethnic Japanese from the West Coast..."
Yeah, he was a genius

"It is a fact that communication takes place between the enemy at sea and
enemy agents on land. These are facts which we shall ignore or minimize
at our peril. It is also a fact that since the outbreak of the Japanese
war there has been no important sabotage on the Pacific Coast. From what
we know about Hawaii and about the Fifth Column in Europe this is not,
as some have liked to think, a sign that there is nothing to be feared. It
is a sign that the blow is well-organized and that it is held back until
it can be struck with maximum effect."
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Lippmann seems to be relevant to much of the discussion
in this group.
Yes, but for reasons other than you appear to believe.
No, he got it right; you screwed up again. He cited Lippman's take on how
people fail to understand the world they live in. Indeed, Lippman offers
(inadvertantly) himself as an example.

YOU prefer his take that, in essence, absence of evidence is proof of
intent.
Post by w***@aol.com
(W.J.Hopwood wrote:)
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Well, first you have to know understand what is meant
by the term "assimilation." I believe this definition fits
nicely: " sociology: the merging of cultural traits from
previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological
amalgamation."
I'd like to see three or four sources for that definition,
please.
OK. Go to Google. Type in "definition of assimilation"
and take your choice.
OK, a quick Googling turns up definitions for linguistics, biology, meteorology,
psychology... did you mean those? No? Then you didn't mean "take your pick".
You meant "cultural assimilation", which is defined (in the "take your pick"
category) as "the process by which a subaltern group's native language and
culture are lost under pressure to assimilate to those of a dominant cultural
group."
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
seems to be home-made and extremely limited. And
since it is biased against miscegenation one might expect
to see bias in other areas as well.
Why don't you take that up with Google or its sources?
Google didn't support your statement.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
If it's common perhaps you could provide two or three
sources where it's defined in those or equivalent terms.
Try Google again. There are many sources there.
Still can't find yours.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Meantime try this one used in the field: "trait" (genetics)
Characteristics or attributes of an organism that are
expressed by genes and/or influenced by the environment.
Post by w***@aol.com
With those two definitions in mind, one can see
that a person could easily be assimilated to American
life, yet be loyal to Japan.
If we use definitions from those who work in this area of
research, your argument falls apart.
You are nitpicking to cover an absence of logic.
No, he is politely refraining from calling you racist, even though YOU
claim that genetic traits are an important part of the assimilation
process.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Your position is shot through with racism and century-old
stereotypes: Japanese can't change
Just calling me "racist" in your frustration at having to
Actually, he said your position was shot through with racism (it's right
there in the above.) *I* called you racist.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
So in your view they were sneaky enough to become outwardly
adapted to US customs and society but still maintain their loyalty
Japan? ....being Japanese, they were unable or unwilling to
change their racial loyalties? Racist stereotypes
You continue to make up nonsense in lieu of presenting
a logical argument. I thought better of your intellect
than that.
I see; so you instead believe that they were actually loyal to the US?

Odd; so why did they need to be locked up?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
I haven't seen you adjusting to changing US customs and
society just by the process of sociological osmosis--whatever
that is.
Look the words up. You'll get the idea. Unfortunately,
you appear to have "over-adjusted" to much of the BS
which has become a part of the change you imagine.l
Well, if you mean he's "adjusted" to the new thought processes that people
should be treated like people, and we shouldn't segregate our military (as
was the case in WWII), or forbid people from marrying outside their race (as
was the case in WWII), or forbid people to immigrate to the US because of
skin color (as was the case in WWII), or forbid people from living where
they wanted and could afford (as was the case in WWII), you are correct.

We assume you subscribe to none of thatj "BS which has become a part of the
change you imagine"? You are happily unadjusted?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
When push came to shove after PH such a
person could easily have felt a loyalty to Japan.
This was evidenced by the number of Nisei who
actually fought on Japan's side against the U.S.
during the war,
Technically those were really only potential Kibei,
Oh, they were more than "potential." They were for real.
Well, no. They were imaginary.

"Kibei" means "returned to the US" ("ki" -> return, "bei" -> Beikoku or
America).

If they hadn't returned to the US, they weren't kibei.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
and since they didn't return to the US but stayed in Japan they
can hardly be examples of the entire Nisei population or of typical
Kibei behavior.
Quite so. But there were enough of them (including some
in very high places) to make a lie of your suggesetion that
"high places"? How high in Japan were they?
Post by w***@aol.com
all of the American-born of Japanese ancestry were 100%
loyal to the U.S.
No doubt, you can produce a quote where anyone claimed "all of the
American-born of Japanese ancestry were 100% loyal to the U.S". Otherwise,
we'll assume you're merely making things up, again, as you have no real
argument, and wish to refute things you think you can.
Post by w***@aol.com
Are you forgetting the "No, No" boys and
Weren't they locked up?
Post by w***@aol.com
the militants at Tule Lake?
Weren't they locked up?
Post by w***@aol.com
Excuses, excuses...to
Right; people should surrender their rights when other think they should. It's
what made America what it is.
Post by w***@aol.com
paraphrase the lyrics from the old song--"you've got it bad
and that aint good." (Sorry. IIRC since the music was by Duke
Ellington maybe the words are "verboten" by your speech
code.)
Sorry, you are making less sense than usual, and that's a pretty high bar.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
and those others who renounced their U.S. citizenship
and requested expatriation to do so.
Under duress of incarceration and everything that accompanied it.
The only duress those guys knew was the duress they
Sorry, you are making no sense again; are you claiming that being locked up
is NOT some sort of duress?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
....you seem to are the one who is more than a little
confused--with an intent to confuse others? At any rate you
haven't given any persuasive evidence for your version of the
Japanese culture at the start of the war.
I'll leave that to you as the self-proclaimed expert in that field.
Well, you COULD just give evidence.
Post by w***@aol.com
My version is that enough of them supported Japan's war effort
in Asia and were engaged in subversive activity in the U.S. to
make them, as a group, of questionable loyalty and a security
risk.
Well, no, espionage professionals locked up the potentially disloyal
immediately, didn't they?
Post by w***@aol.com
In the immortal words of that fine old soldier, General
DeWitt,
"A Jap's a Jap. It makes no difference whether the Jap is a citizen or not."
Post by w***@aol.com
we had to "separate the sheep from the goats."
Well, he didn't try. He lumped them all in together in the camps, didn't he?
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Post by w***@aol.com
Well, there go Simpson and Yinger stereotyping all Nisei.
Well, there you go changing the text again. They did not use
the word "all" .....
Nor did they use the word "some." According to you they
And so, if you don't use the word "some", you mean "all" nisei were loyal
to Japan?
Post by w***@aol.com
said "the Nisei," period. How many did they mean? They
were stereotyping and the clear indication was they meant
Well, they were examining a particular group and examining their attitudes.
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
If you understood stereotyping and its manifestations you
wouldn't have brought it up in this context.
I can understand English and know what the word
Not that you've demonstrated.

Again; does your entire case depend entirely on deliberate misrepresentations,
misunderstanding things most people find simple, and exploring new vistas
in on-line stupid?
Post by w***@aol.com
the three groups. ALL of the Issei were "aging and fading away."
ALL the Kibei were were "with 1930s Japanese militarism and
narrowness." ALL the Nisei with much affinity to American culture
but leery of White opposition."
Hmm, I don't see the word "ALL" used in the fashion you represent...
Post by w***@aol.com
Post by Don Kirkman
What I and others have consistently done is deny and refute your
assertions that they were all disloyal to their native country.
I don't and haven't contended that "all" were, but that it
And yet, you don't make that qualifier very often, despite your insistence
in this post that absence of same means one must be including the entire
group in one's descriptions.

Again, do you actually read what you write?
Post by w***@aol.com
is indisputable that "some" were.
Which nobody has disputed.
Post by w***@aol.com
Enough to be a security
threat until the "wheat could be separated from the chaff"
Which they did in a few weeks.
Post by w***@aol.com
which took time.
A couple weeks. The rest were locked up for the hell of it, months later.
Post by w***@aol.com
That is the bottom line. The emotional clap-trap
which came more than a generation later--the race-based
apologies and financial payments to enemy aliens interned
Well, it WAS a race-based incarceration, wasn't it?
Post by w***@aol.com
on FBI charges, the "forgiveness" of disloyal citizens who
renounced their U.S. citizenship to fight for the enemy, the
Really? How many of those were there, Mr Hopwood?
Post by w***@aol.com
"second-guessing" of guilt-ridden ideologues who have
Sorry, I don't feel guilt-ridden over the actions of your generation.
Post by w***@aol.com
made a career of substituting latter-day obsessions about
race
Like equality; yeah, we get that you don't like that.

Mike
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-05 05:25:02 UTC
Permalink
***@aol.com <***@aol.com> wrote:

Correcting Mr Hopwood, again.
Post by w***@aol.com
and Japan. They could have easily renounced their
Japanese citizenship in a simple showing of loyalty
to the U.S., but few did. Why not? Instead there
were over 5,000 reunciations during the war, but of
their U.S. citizenship, not their Japanese. That was
"loyalty" all right, but to the wrong country.
Between 1924 and 1930, only 1/3 of the children born to Japanese parents in the
US was registered with the Consolute. In 1927, the Japanese Consul estimated
that 80% of of the nisei held dual citizenship (51,000 of 63,000). By 1930,
only 47% of nisei held dual citizenship in California. By WWII, roughly 70%
of nisei held US citizenship alone.

http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Dual_citizenship/

Mike
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2013-01-03 04:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
Meanwhile, over the years, the mother country.
Japan, became a major military power and a threat
to the United States. At the same time, and because of
their lack of absorption into the U.S. mainstream (the cause
being irrelevant to the wartime reality) many Japanese
Well, no it's relevant; you don't lock up people just because they don't
live next door to you, Mr Hopwood. We at least aspire to be America, after
all. You're thinking of OTHER nations...
Post by w***@aol.com
retained their loyalty and attachment to Japan through
By 1900, 67,000 Japanese immigrants had settled in the US, meaning at the
time of PH, they'd been in the US over 40 years. Yet for some reason, well,
race, you seem to only note that a nebulous "many" of them retained their
loyalty to Japan. Do you have any real evidence? How many is "many", for
example? How does this compare with Germans and Italians?

Some hard numbers, please, to back up your prejudices. After all, someone
who actually DID a study of this writes
"That within the last eight or ten years the entire "Japanese
question" in the United States has reversed itself. The alien menace
is no longer paramount, and is becoming of less importance almost
daily, as the original alien immigrants grow older and die, and as
more and more of their American-born children reach maturity. The
primary present and future problem is that of dealing with these
of whom it is considered that least seventy-five percent are loyal
to the United States. The ratio of these American citizens of
Japanese ancestry to alien-born Japanese in the United States is
at present almost 3 to 1, and rapidly increasing."
Post by w***@aol.com
citizenship, culture, family, and inheritance.
Many Germans and Italians did so as well, as membership in the various
"patriotic" organizations for those Axis nations showed.
Post by w***@aol.com
This, coupled
with an abundance of military intelligence confirming the
involvement of some of the Issei and Nisei in espionage for
Japan, led to the now-controversial (but well-supported at
the time) evacuations and internments during WWII.
You keep repeating what you're trying to show as if it were fact, when it is
nonsense that keeps getting rebutted. The security threats were in fact
identified BEFORE the war broke out, and rounded up almost immediately.

How did all that slip past you.

Mike
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