Tarawa

[news]

Just watched an episode of Against the Odds on the American Heroes
Channel, entitled "The Heroes of Tarawa". No questions about the
"heroes" but several about the attack on Betio

Apparently this type of landing was a first in the Central Pacific, but
there was only 3 hours of bombardment which seems overly optimistic.

The biggest failure was not having correct tide info, so I'm wondering
why it wasn't decided to just wait offshore for 24 hours to get the
proper info. It wasn't like the Japanese didn't know what was coming.

via this episode it seemed that initially there were only amtracs and
higgins boats, but there were two tanks successfully landed (strangely
they kept showing an M2, sometimes a Sherman)

[GFH]

Post by news
Just watched an episode of Against the Odds on the American Heroes
Channel, entitled "The Heroes of Tarawa". No questions about the
"heroes" but several about the attack on Betio
Apparently this type of landing was a first in the Central Pacific, but
there was only 3 hours of bombardment which seems overly optimistic.

So, at Iwo Jima, the bombardment was so thorough
that it was predicted that there would be no
enemy left. How did that work out? Too much
bombardment?

Post by news
The biggest failure was not having correct tide info, so I'm wondering
why it wasn't decided to just wait offshore for 24 hours to get the
proper info. It wasn't like the Japanese didn't know what was coming.

Certainly there was a problem with the
depth of the water in the lagoon. Let
me suggest the problem was lack of knowledge
about the near-shore water depth, not lack of
knowledge of the tides.

Post by news
via this episode it seemed that initially there were only amtracs and
higgins boats, but there were two tanks successfully landed (strangely
they kept showing an M2, sometimes a Sherman)

The DUKWs (pronounced 'ducks')came in later. The
US military did not want the DUKWs and were forced
to order them. An interesting story in itself.

Don't believe everything you see in movies
and on TV. Often a few grains of truth are
expanded into the 'whole beach'. If you
don't want to spend time doing research, at
least look up the event on Wikipedia. Not
perfect, but a lot better than a TV show.

GFH

[news]

Post by GFH

Post by news
Just watched an episode of Against the Odds on the American Heroes
Channel, entitled "The Heroes of Tarawa". No questions about the
"heroes" but several about the attack on Betio
Apparently this type of landing was a first in the Central Pacific, but
there was only 3 hours of bombardment which seems overly optimistic.

So, at Iwo Jima, the bombardment was so thorough
that it was predicted that there would be no
enemy left. How did that work out? Too much
bombardment?

still 3 hours seems absolutely miserly

Post by GFH

Post by news
The biggest failure was not having correct tide info, so I'm wondering
why it wasn't decided to just wait offshore for 24 hours to get the
proper info. It wasn't like the Japanese didn't know what was coming.

Certainly there was a problem with the
depth of the water in the lagoon. Let
me suggest the problem was lack of knowledge
about the near-shore water depth, not lack of
knowledge of the tides.

Post by news
via this episode it seemed that initially there were only amtracs and
higgins boats, but there were two tanks successfully landed (strangely
they kept showing an M2, sometimes a Sherman)

The DUKWs (pronounced 'ducks')came in later. The
US military did not want the DUKWs and were forced
to order them. An interesting story in itself.
Don't believe everything you see in movies
and on TV. Often a few grains of truth are
expanded into the 'whole beach'. If you
don't want to spend time doing research, at
least look up the event on Wikipedia. Not
perfect, but a lot better than a TV show.
GFH

best I can determine it would have to be an LCM, but there is no mention
of them either on the episode or in wiki

[Michael Emrys]

Post by news
still 3 hours seems absolutely miserly

It was, but in the Navy's defense all this was a learning experience.
Probably more grievous was the Marine Corps reluctance to land artillery
on nearby islands from which they might have provided support to the attack.

You might want to take a look at _Pacific Blitzkrieg: World War II in
the Central Pacific_ by Sharon Tosi Lacey in which she compares the
Marine's attack on Tarawa with the almost simultaneous operation by the
Army to take Makin. Eye opening.

Michael

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by news
still 3 hours seems absolutely miserly

The actual bombardment started at 0441,
continued to 0542, stopped for the carrier
air strike (which was 20 minutes late),
resumed at 0620, and continued until a few
minutes before the landings at 0910-0930.

Betio has a land area of 381 acres (153 hectarss).

The bombardment force consistsd of

TU 53.4.1 - Fire Support Section 1
BB TENNESSEE - 12 x 14"
DD BAILEY - 5 x 5", FRAZIER - 5 x 5"

TU 53.4.2 - Fire Support Section 2
BB MARYLAND - 8 x 16"
CL SANTA FE - 12 x 6"
DD GANSEVOORT - 5 x 5", MEADE - 5 x 5"

TU 53.4.3 - Fire Support Section 3
BB COLORADO - 8 x 16"
CA PORTLAND - 9 x 8"
DD ANDERSON - 4 x 5", RUSSELL - 4 x 5"

TU 53.4.4 - Fire Support Section 4
DD RINGGOLD - 5 x 5", DASHIEL - 5 x 5"

TU 53.4.5 - Fire Support Section 5
CA INDIANAPOLIS - 9 x 8"
DD SCHROEDER - 5 x 5"

Total guns firing:

16 x 16". 12 x 14", 18 x 8", 12 x 6", 43 x 5"

not counting 5" secondary guns on the battleships
and cruisers.

If the bombarding ships fired a salvo every three
minutes, they'd fire about 100 salvos. Thus Betio
could have been hit by 2,800 battleship rounds,
3.000 cruiser rounds, and 4,300 destroyer rounds.

Each hectare (100 meters square) would get about
18 BB rounds, 20 CA/CL rounds, 28 DD rounds.

That's pretty heavy.

[a425couple]

Post by news
via this episode it seemed that initially there were only amtracs and
higgins boats, but there were two tanks successfully landed (strangely
they kept showing an M2, sometimes a Sherman)

(You sound doubtful?)
For what little it matters, at the bottom of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tarawa
they show a picture, captioned
"An M4 Sherman rests in the lagoon."
The angle is not ideal, but looks like a Sherman to me.

[news]

Post by a425couple

Post by news
via this episode it seemed that initially there were only amtracs and
higgins boats, but there were two tanks successfully landed (strangely
they kept showing an M2, sometimes a Sherman)

(You sound doubtful?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tarawa
they show a picture, captioned
"An M4 Sherman rests in the lagoon."
The angle is not ideal, but looks like a Sherman to me.

I don't doubt the Shermans were there, just wondered how they got their
in the heat of the battle

[Rich]

Post by a425couple
(You sound doubtful?)

You all might want to check http://tarawaontheweb.org/usmctank.htm
The 14 M4 Medium tanks in the initial assault were in LCM-3.
Ten made it to the beach.
Two were still operational at the end of the battle.
You might also benefit from reading Alexander's "Utmost
Savagery".

[Jim H.]

On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:17:52 AM UTC-4, news wrote:
....

Post by news
via this episode it seemed that initially there were only amtracs and
higgins boats, but there were two tanks successfully landed (strangely
they kept showing an M2, sometimes a Sherman)

The boat in the painting by Tom Lovell shown in the gallery at the
bottom of the Wikipedia page on Tarawa definitely shows an LCM
(AKA'Mike 6').

The painting may distort the dimensions of the boat's cargo
space (well deck),but the ramp is unmistakable, as is the stern deck
conning station. I was around these boats fairly often during my
USN service during the VN war, in which much 'left-over' WWII
equipment was used.

I'm pretty sure it could carry an M-4 Sherman as a full load. But
I don't know anything about the interactions between Mike 6's
carrying Shermans and the reefs & tides around Tarawa. At a guess,
the draft caused by the full load would mean they'd need to use a
channel thru the reefs, either natural or blasted by engineers.

Jim H.

[Rich]

Post by Jim H.
I'm pretty sure it could carry an M-4 Sherman as a full load. But
I don't know anything about the interactions between Mike 6's
carrying Shermans and the reefs & tides around Tarawa.

Jim, the LCM-6 did not begin production until 1944. The LCM at Tarawa
were LCM-3. The -6 had a six-foot insert amidships and was about 12
tons heavier at full loaded. Most of the LCM-3 were of the so-called
"Higgins" design, which looked like an enlarged LCVP. The second type
was the "Bureau" design, which was by BUSHIPS, which had a distinctively
different higher freeboard.