Post by EunometicAnyone or any group making statements about Adolf Hitlers geneology
are clearly angling to make a political point and their pronouncements
must be taken with reservation.
Eunometic is a classic example.
Post by EunometicThey belong along with other ideas
such as Hitlers supposed latent homosexuality and the focus on his
supposed single testicle.
Lots of historical figures have had claims made about their sexuality
and other attributes, as people put modern interpretations on their
behaviour, usually a move that says more about the modern
person.
Post by EunometicFirst it should be noted that the genetic information suggests only
that he may have had some distant North African herritage with it
being much less likely that the Herritage was jewish than that it was
of Berber ancestry.
Ah yes, of course, as if Jewish is genetic, as opposed to the fact
the DNA reports someone of probable North African/Middle
Eastern origin (or a descendant of such a person) as measured
by the DNA of the modern populations, ended up contributing
to the Hitler family line. That person could have been a Muslim
you know, or Pagan, or Christian, and so on.
Meantime the current understanding is all humans have African
origins. Though more distant in most cases than the Eunometic
attempt to push the Hitler DNA marker's arrival in the family.
And around 10% of the current German population has the
marker Hitler had.
Post by EunometicJews marry out and assimilate at a low rate as
part of a cultural sense of social self preservation many proudly
assert as evidenced by these self same genetic studies
Strange as it may seem there have been significant barriers to people
of the Jewish faith marrying out for centuries, and that includes the
non Jewish people's ideas as well. As for the assimilate at a low rate
that is largely determined by whether society allows them to assimilate,
not some sort of Jewish keep it in the family policy.
As is well known people of the Jewish faith were well integrated into
Western European society in the 1920's and 1930's. Then the Nazis
decided to reverse that.
Post by Eunometichowever there
was much influx of North African blood into Southern Europe from the
North of the Mediteranean during the period of Greco-Roman
civilisation and the following Byzantine empire.
By the way Southern Europe is North of the Mediterranean.
I just love the "blood" tag, not DNA, reminds you of the rhetoric
of the 1930's and earlier. Meantime the Byzantine Empire was
rather lacking in European possessions north of the Alps, since
it was the Eastern Roman Empire. It did control the Balkans at
the start and then regained them for a time, the Empire tended to
grow and shrink over the course of its existence.
Also as techniques improve and more work is done it is becoming
clearer people (or rather a subset of people) moved about a great
deal while they were alive throughout history, the 20th century ideas
about historical mobility underestimated the situation.
Essentially the Eunometic cry is Hitler's non European DNA
contribution was so long ago it does not matter. Sort of like the
people Hitler knew who he exempted from various racial laws.
And of course the idea it could be Jewish is out of the question.
Meantime people can note the author of the study the media
reports are going on never said Jewish, only where the DNA
marker is currently most common, and it is a minority in current
Jewish populations. The media added the (possible) Jewish tag.
Post by EunometicIt should be noted that Nazi racial ideology accepted that Germans
were a mixture of races and indeed that Europeans were as well.
It should be noted that Eunometic is not exactly bothering with the
truth here, Aryans were pure. That some Germans were not pure
or worse was part of the ideology. The other thing is of course the
ideology was not exactly logical about race at times, given so much
of it stemmed from Hitler's prejudices and needs of the moment.
So Croats went from Slavs to more Germanic when they became
German allies, plus there are the attempts to explain the Japanese
in "racial terms".
Post by EunometicIt
was not a pure nordicist ideology, they merely valued that part of the
herritage perhaps as many american value their roots.
You see the idea is to make it so Americans say valuing their Polish
ancestry think it is a good idea to announce that makes them superior
and deserving to rule the place, and places like say Germany.
Eunometic has this tendency to ignore Nazi ideology in favour of
whitewash and try to turn people like those who respect the family
history into being the same as Nazis
And as for "pure nordicist" that is easy, it was Hitler's prejudices
and they had contradictions.
Post by EunometicMany Jews both
part and full were accepted as full German under exemptions to the
Nuremberg Laws. Emil Maurice (Hitlers Jail Buddy) and Erhard
Milch(Luftwaffe Leader) spring to mind.
You see the Eunometic thinking does work so much like the 1930's
German Government. Part Jewish? Attend the synagogue every
second, third or fourth week? Is there part Catholic? Part Muslim?
Milch was never Jewish, nor Maurice, the latter having a great
grandfather who was Jewish.
Essentially many Jews is code for a handful of people Hitler or the
senior Nazi leadership knew personally and preferred to keep but
who also had a Jewish ancestor within the time limits the Nazis set
for their "blood" definition of Jewish.
Post by EunometicIn this way the Nurmemberg
Laws were more flexible than so called Jim Crow laws in the 1930s
since they could be administratively be over ruled.
You see it works like this, Hitler made some exceptions for people
who had never practiced the Jewish faith but had ancestors who
did. Therefore the claim is the laws were more flexible than some
US laws, or translation, the Nazis were not much on law, the
leadership in particular saw themselves as exempt.
Post by EunometicIt is entirely
incorrect to say that Nazi ideology was Nordic White only, it was
virulently anti-jewish and anti-gypsy but indifferent to Arabs and
despite rants in mein Kampf indifferent to Blacks in terms of
execution of any negative policy.
On the other hand people can note the reality being dark skinned
put people into the Roma and Jewish category in Nazi thinking.
And though there was no extermination program against dark
skinned people there was active discrimination and violence.
Essentially there were not enough dark skinned people in Nazi
control to attract enough attention.
Also Arabs were useful if they could revolt against the British and
the French.
Post by EunometicBlack's were a kind of bogeyman to
many Germans since the French had used them as mercenaries and
Soliders during the Franco-Prussian war as well as the first world
war.
Note above we have no discrimination, now we have reasons given
for discrimination.
How horrible that people of dark skin should actually fight against
the Germans.in formed armies. Please let us know all the dark
skinned mercenaries that fought for France in the rather short
Franco-Prussian War, which was of course fought mainly in
France. Add most of WWI in the west was mainly in France
as well.
Post by EunometicHaplogroup E1b1b1 is Y-chromosome autonmic DNA transmitted by the male
sperm. So Hitlers distant non White relative would have been male. It
could have entered into his 'gene pool' at any time.
What is probably the most amusing thing here is the declaration the
ancestor was distant but it could have occurred at any time. Given
the claims it may have been via Hitler's grandfather, and yes I know
that claim has problems. Especially given the number of Germans
carrying the marker.
Post by EunometicDuring the period of the Roman empire there was a huge trade from the
North of Africa (North Mediteranean) to the South and a considerable
movement of people. The Roman Army used non patrician Romans from
all over the world as soldiers (so called 'auxiliaries').
I know this is silly but you do understand citizenship of Rome could be
conferred on anyone living within the Empire? Service in the army
would help such an application? The Roman armies of the Empire
tended to have a minority of patrician Romans and they were in the
legions, not just as auxiliaries.
Also there were few Inuit, Chinese, North and South Americans
and Australians etc. in the Roman armies.
Post by EunometicFor instance there was a sizable community of Syrians in France who
worked as part of the trade during the empires Christian era. (Syria
at the time was also Christian). There was an influx of Nth Africans
into Spain between the Moorish invasion of 700s and the Reconquista
etc.
Apparently this is all about a plea that Hitler's DNA embarrassment,
(for the Nazis anyway) that part of it came from a group mainly
concentrated in North Africa these days, should not be considered
important because is must have happened a long time ago.
Post by EunometicThe Mediteranean trade persisted and after the collapse of Rome even
grew under the Barbarian Kings for 200 years but ended around 700 as
the Jihaads turned the Mediteranean into a piratical sea that was all
but impassable, forced millions of Europeans back from the coast to
avoid Arab/Islamic slave raiding therby precidpating the dark ages.
You know the Eunometic history requires non Germans to be
barbarians.
Meantime the actual European dark ages started as the Roman
Empire fell, so 5th or 6th century. The dark refers to the way the
historical record goes dark, not a lot of documents and the
archaeology also has problems. The main immediate cause of the
fall of the western Roman Empire was of course those invasions
by the Germanic tribes. So Eunometic has to move things two or
three hundred years.and blame someone else.
And yes it was more complicated that just the invasions.
Piracy tends to occur when the sealanes cannot be policed.
Post by EunometicA union o European woman with a Syrian or North African trader in
distant times is more likely to have been the source of Hitlers E1b1b1
as anything if indeed that is correct at all.
Translation, Hitler could have had the embarrassing DNA put into
the family line at any time and the earlier the better for Eunometic.
Note there is no claim out there the female involved was European,
however it seems clear she is being declared acceptable, despite
no DNA information being provided. The idea two of Hitler's
ancestors were non European seems unacceptable, but of course
it actually what happened, and it was far more than two. It took a
long time for Humans to move out of Africa.
Now given the latest ideas about inter breeding with Neanderthals
get ready for tests for those markers.
Post by EunometicIt is worth noting that National Socialism is an explicity racial
ideology but it is also flexible, it had to be to be realisitic and
not seen as lunar.
You see Eunometic believes Nazi racial theory is realistic, not lunar.
Most people understand it is the opposite.
Post by Eunometic"Therefore, for the Fascist, everything is in the State, and nothing
human or spiritual exists, much less has value,-outside the State. In
this sense Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State, the
synthesis and unity of all values, interprets, develops and gives
strength to the whole life of the people." - Mussolini
In other words the people only matter as long as they are of use
in the plans of the leader and do what they are told.
Post by EunometicIn contrast national socialism was different
"The State is only a means to an end. Its end and its purpose is to
preserve and promote a community of human beings who are physically as
well as spiritually kindred." - Adolf Hitler
You see one quote rules them all, and Eunometic keeps preferring
a nice quote about Nazi Germany over the reality of its actions.
For example no attempt to quote Mussolini about the Jewish faith,
and Italian Government actions versus the Hitler quotes and actions.
How about the quote where Hitler says all the children will be
National Socialist, despite the views of their parents.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.