Dividing up the world

[David Wilma]

I was listening to a podcast featuring Gerhard Weinberg
at the Pritzker Military Library where he mentions how
the Germans and the Japanese had agreed on a longitude
in Asia dividing their prospective empires. There was also
a plan for the Western Hemisphere where the Japanese
got Alaska, British Columbia and Washington State as
well as Latin America. This was never agreed upon
between the powers.

Is there a source for this division of the world?
In particular I would like to pin down the proposal
for the Western Hemisphere.

[Les]

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 5:13:48 PM UTC-3, David Wilma wrote:

(regarding a plan between Germany and Japan to divide the world)

Post by David Wilma
Is there a source for this division of the world?

(rest of post deleted)

I saw a version of this in the US propaganda film series "Why We
Fight," where it maps out the zones for the German and Japanese
empires. Sorry, I have not heard any more reliable accounts of
any settled world borders between the two. I have read various
accounts that supported the "conquer anything we can invade"
theory, which explains a lot of their actions.

[dumbstruck]

Post by David Wilma
Is there a source for this division of the world?
In particular I would like to pin down the proposal
for the Western Hemisphere.

That sounds like something in Ribbentrop's domain, and something
he would brainstorm but not really get top agreement with. I had
just been wondering if there were any memoirs from Ribbentrop's
underlings. If you read normal material about him it has such hate
and ridicule that, while justifiable, doesn't give an idea of
what he and his organization did other than lying mischief.

Schellenberg's foreign secret service under Himmler had extensive
relations with the Japanese, and Schel. felt he had to not only
spy and evaluate info, but lobby for action which steps on Rib.'s
toes. His depicts Japanese as wanting a free hand in Asia while
Europe bleeds itself.

Germany didn't want them to attack colonies of Euro countries they
occupied and wanted to suck resources from, but they did. Germany
wanted them to attack the anglo Americans so bad, that is why Hitler
only declared war one time... after Pearl Harbor to help commit
Japan to that task. Hitler even worked a bit trying to broker a
truce with China so Japanese forces could be freed to face the US
and I suppose Oz, NZ etc.

Japan made numerous serious attempts to broker a truce between
Germany and Russia. Not because they were afraid of Russia... their
Euro intel was so super good, they knew early Germany would hopelessly
fall behind Russia in war production. Even Himmler could see this
was plausible, but Ribbentrop sabotaged every attempt to explain this
to Hitler.

Schel. depicts the Japanese spies and diplomats as extremely able
and cooperative in Europe (one can practically control the Lisbon
police force), but when it came to policy Tokyo acted in their own
interests, pretty much disregarding Germany.

[Haydn]

Post by David Wilma
In particular I would like to pin down the proposal
for the Western Hemisphere.

Before dividing the Western hemisphere, they should have conquered it.

I recall having read somewhere - should look for the source - about
fanciful expansion plans for the Spanish navy, obviously after the
victory over Britain and the USSR and the creation of that sort of
German-chaired "European Union" the Axis victory would have given rise
to. (Hm hm - does that remind us of something. Well, never mind).

A full Spanish ocean fleet with battleships, heavy cruisers and
carriers, largely built in Italian yards with some injection of
state-of-the-art German technology. The underlying notion seems to have
been that since Germany alone couldn't take on the United States on the
ocean, the entire shipyard and sea combat capabilities of the entire
European continent would have been mobilized for the task. A Combined
German-Italian-French-Spanish (and minor navies, possibly) Armada.

Haydn

[Mario]

Post by Haydn

Post by David Wilma
In particular I would like to pin down the proposal
for the Western Hemisphere.

Before dividing the Western hemisphere, they should have
conquered it.
I recall having read somewhere - should look for the source -
about fanciful expansion plans for the Spanish navy,
obviously after the victory over Britain and the USSR and the
creation of that sort of German-chaired "European Union" the
Axis victory would have given rise to. (Hm hm - does that
remind us of something. Well, never mind).
A full Spanish ocean fleet with battleships, heavy cruisers
and carriers, largely built in Italian yards with some
injection of state-of-the-art German technology. The
underlying notion seems to have been that since Germany alone
couldn't take on the United States on the ocean, the entire
shipyard and sea combat capabilities of the entire European
continent would have been mobilized for the task. A Combined
German-Italian-French-Spanish (and minor navies, possibly)
Armada.

Why don't use British experience in shipbuilding?

[dumbstruck]

It's a shame we all speculate without access to Gerhard's written
proof. He was German born and he may have access to untranslated
materials. Here are videos of other ww2 lectures he has done
http://www.c-span.org/search/?searchtype=All&query=gerhard+weinberg

Post by Haydn
fanciful expansion plans for the Spanish navy, obviously after the
victory over Britain and the USSR and the creation of that sort of
German-chaired "European Union" the Axis victory would have given rise

But wasn't Spain neutral (and broke)? I've read memoirs of Hitler
seething and calling Franco not at all fascist. Wiki sez Canaris assured
Franco he needn't and shouldn't cooperate with German demands, a stunning
act by this top intel officer later executed for treason. Wiki sez the
Brit's paid Spain to maintain neutrality. I've read memoir of Spanish
troops around Leningrad, but I believe these were unofficial volunteers
sort of like the international brigades meddling in Spanish civil war.

[Rich Rostrom]

I've read memoir of Spanish troops around Leningrad,
but I believe these were unofficial volunteers sort
of like the international brigades meddling in
Spanish civil war.

The Division Azul (Blue Division) was a force of
anti-Communist Spanish volunteers who served on
the Eastern Front. Officially they were part of
the Wehrmacht. Unlike the International Brigades,
they were recruited with the explicit permission
of the Spanish government. Many active-duty Spanish
officers and NCOs volunteered for the Blue Division.

[John Dallman]

Post by dumbstruck
But wasn't Spain neutral (and broke)?

Yes.

Post by dumbstruck
I've read memoirs of Hitler seething and calling Franco not at
all fascist.

I think that just means "not interested in sacrificing his own interests
for Hitler's."

Post by dumbstruck
Wiki sez Canaris assured Franco he needn't and shouldn't cooperate
with German demands, a stunning act by this top intel officer later
executed for treason.

So do several other sources.

Post by dumbstruck
Wiki sez the Brit's paid Spain to maintain neutrality.

This was a combination of bribing Spanish leaders (mostly generals) and
making it clear they could cut off Spain's trade with South America,
which was true.

Post by dumbstruck
I've read memoir of Spanish troops around Leningrad, but I believe
these were unofficial volunteers sort of like the international
brigades meddling in Spanish civil war.

Franco allowed people from his army who really wanted to fight the
Soviets to volunteer to do that, and the Germans undertook it would only
serve against the Soviets. The Spanish army helped organise the
recruiting, but the "Blue Division" was a unit of the Heer, organised and
equipped as such. In late 1943, the division was ordered home, under
pressure from the Allies and the Roman Catholic Church in Spain. Some
spaniards stayed on the Eastern Front, and fought through to the Battle
of Berlin.

John

[Les]

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 10:39:56 PM UTC-3, dumbstruck wrote:

(stuff deleted regarding Spain in WW2)

Post by dumbstruck
But wasn't Spain neutral (and broke)?

(rest of post deleted)

Yep, and thus open to the better briber for most of the war.
That happened to be the UK and US, that could supply the food
and fuel that Germany really couldn't spare.

Franco was initially interested in joining the Axis around the
time France fell, but once it became obvious the UK wasn't
going to throw in the towel, he was more than willing to benefit
from neutrality, such as taking UK/US funds and trade, and
giving occasional information to the Nazis. The UK exploited
this by landing a dead "spy" on the Spanish shore, with documents
that would lead the Germans into thinking that the Sicily invasion
was a diversion.

[Alan Meyer]

On 10/26/2015 07:28 PM, Les wrote:
...

Post by Les
Franco was initially interested in joining the Axis around the
time France fell, but once it became obvious the UK wasn't
going to throw in the towel, he was more than willing to benefit
from neutrality, such as taking UK/US funds and trade, and
giving occasional information to the Nazis. The UK exploited
this by landing a dead "spy" on the Spanish shore, with documents
that would lead the Germans into thinking that the Sicily invasion
was a diversion.

...

In addition, Spain had a long history of contact with Britain's naval
might in both the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, and a short but
disastrous experience against the American navy in Cuba and the
Philippines. Even if the U.S. and Britain didn't outright invade
Spain, Franco knew that it was impossible for the Spanish to defend
their commerce or their coast lines against British and American navies,
and there was precious little the Germans could do to help.

He would have been crazy to join the Axis in going to war, and both
Roosevelt and Churchill were not shy about explaining that to his
representatives.

Alan

[dumbstruck]

Post by David Wilma
a plan for the Western Hemisphere where the Japanese
got Alaska, British Columbia and Washington State as
well as Latin America. This was never agreed upon
between the powers.
Is there a source for this division of the world?

Achh! After sampling much of that lecture, I share some of your puzzlement.
One approach is to read Weinberg's book "Visions of Victory..." or even it's
reviews. The darn Pritzker podcasts are getting harder to find free now, and
the audio quality is poor (a shuffle or cough masks out a possible "not" when
discussing if Japan plans were final).

He kinda infers the Japanese source in the process of admitting it was not
directly from Tojo. Maybe there have been added translations in the dozen
years since his lecture. Re: Germans, he sometimes points to the "party"
as a source... what the heck does that refer to? The henchmen had both
party and national titles, but I am not aware the nazi party (SS?) had plans
of conquest independent of the various ministries, etc.

I forgot to mention Schellenberg's position on Canada... any successful
invasion of the UK should result in falling back (of the fleet, etc) to Canada
which would be a fortress harassing the German empire even postwar.
BTW, Weinberg allows for a long postwar period to attain those bounds.

Schell. depicts 3 redundant branches assessing the potential ripe foreign
fruits for Hitler to pluck: warmonger Ribbentrop foreign ministry, cautious
Himmler SS/SD, and peacemonger Canaris military intel. They all are
awash with valid intel, having blackmailed or paid off every other valet
or chauffeur of military attache in half the world's capitals. Himmler is
too spineless to give Hitler a reality check. Canaris hides treasonous
or at least humane acts from Adolph, and Rib. is like an attack dog against
defeatism among henchmen.

I am gonna read up on Rib who now makes more sense to me. His foreign
plans were shown to be lunacy even to Hitler, but he remained very useful
in snitching on any of his peers backsliding into defeatism or humaneness.
Gonna read about Canaris who wasn't just a humane guy lost in a world
of thugs, but had strange passive-aggressive ways of coping according to
his pal Schel. Then Tojo, Zhukov... lots of musty library books on last legs!

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by David Wilma
I was listening to a podcast featuring Gerhard Weinberg
at the Pritzker Military Library where he mentions how
the Germans and the Japanese had agreed on a longitude
in Asia dividing their prospective empires. There was also
a plan for the Western Hemisphere where the Japanese
got Alaska, British Columbia and Washington State as
well as Latin America. This was never agreed upon
between the powers.
Is there a source for this division of the world?
In particular I would like to pin down the proposal
for the Western Hemisphere.

I don't think there was ever anything so formal. The Germans always
wanted their old colonies back, and I suspect that in any
alternate universe the Axis powers were victorious, they would
have almost immediately fought another war over the divisions.

First one to the a-bomb wins.

Mike

[David Wilma]

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 9:25:52 PM UTC-7, ***@netmapsonscape.net wrote:
wers.

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
I don't think there was ever anything so formal. The Germans always
wanted their old colonies back, and I suspect that in any
alternate universe the Axis powers were victorious, they would
have almost immediately fought another war over the divisions.

I never heard that Hitler wanted the old colonies back. They generally
got second or third pick to colonies. Were they that much of
an issue. My understanding is that German territorial and imperial
intentions were limited to Europe.

[GFH]

Post by David Wilma
wers.

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
I don't think there was ever anything so formal. The Germans always
wanted their old colonies back, and I suspect that in any
alternate universe the Axis powers were victorious, they would
have almost immediately fought another war over the divisions.

I never heard that Hitler wanted the old colonies back. They generally
got second or third pick to colonies. Were they that much of
an issue. My understanding is that German territorial and imperial
intentions were limited to Europe.

First, I think Hitler's goals changed over
time. I think he started with the desire to
unify "Deutschland", as described in the national
anthem -- Maas, Memel, Etsch, Belt. I think that
overseas colonies were not attractive to him, as
England could easily block access.

Since the war in the west went so well, I think
he expanded his scope to adding virtual colonies
east of Germany, a government structure not unlike
the structure he installed in Poland, Alsace, and
Lorraine.

So, I agree that Hitler's aims were limited to
Europe.

GFH

[Michele]

Post by GFH
First, I think Hitler's goals changed over
time. I think he started with the desire to
unify "Deutschland", as described in the national
anthem -- Maas, Memel, Etsch, Belt. I think that
overseas colonies were not attractive to him, as
England could easily block access.
Since the war in the west went so well, I think
he expanded his scope to adding virtual colonies
east of Germany, a government structure not unlike
the structure he installed in Poland, Alsace, and
Lorraine.

A barrowload of byproducts of bovine metabolism.

Even just by going by what you write, it would not hold water, because
you have not noticed that Poland _is to the East_ of Germany, and that a
colony-like administration was already established there before the war
in the West going so well.

Apart from that, read Mein Kampf. Lebensraum is the key word you should
be looking for.

The idea that anybody would swallow the notion that Hitler came up with
a plan to conquer Lebensraum as a sort of afterthought in the summer of
1940 is nothing short of pathetic.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by David Wilma
I never heard that Hitler wanted the old colonies back. They generally
got second or third pick to colonies. Were they that much of
an issue. My understanding is that German territorial and imperial
intentions were limited to Europe.

In general, _Hitler's_ ambitions were in Europe,
but Hitler did think at times about "Weltmacht".
I think after 1940, when Britain was revealed as
an implacable enemy, Hitler began to think (idly)
about the destruction of the British Empire, with
some of the juicy bits taken by Germany, for oil,
rubber, minerals.

Also, Hitler was not the _sole_ font of policy,
though he had the absolute final word. There were
factions within the Nazi clique with varying
agendas. AIUI, there was a bloc of neo-"Wilhelmine
imperialists", whose ambitions were closer to the
path of Imperial Germany. Goering was among these.

So in the event of a _decisive_ German victory,
Germany would probably acquire some colonies, and
sentiment would argue for regaining the old
Imperial colonies, at least in Africa.

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by David Wilma
wers.

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
I don't think there was ever anything so formal. The Germans always
wanted their old colonies back, and I suspect that in any
alternate universe the Axis powers were victorious, they would
have almost immediately fought another war over the divisions.

I never heard that Hitler wanted the old colonies back. They generally
got second or third pick to colonies. Were they that much of
an issue. My understanding is that German territorial and imperial
intentions were limited to Europe.

"that much of an issue"? Not during wartime. But then, the Germans and
Japanese didn't really communicate or coordinate much during the war about
anything, much less give serious thought to the postwar world.

Mike

[Chris Morton]

In article <23053463-83c6-4e21-81cd-***@googlegroups.com>, David Wilma
says...

Post by David Wilma
I never heard that Hitler wanted the old colonies back. They generally
got second or third pick to colonies. Were they that much of
an issue. My understanding is that German territorial and imperial
intentions were limited to Europe.

Hitler was FAR more interested in the food and energy resources of the Soviet
Union.

Compared to what Hitler planned to extract from Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and the
Caucasus, Shantung and the Pacific Islands weren't even an afterthought.

[GFH]

Post by David Wilma
I was listening to a podcast featuring Gerhard Weinberg
at the Pritzker Military Library where he mentions how
the Germans and the Japanese had agreed on a longitude
in Asia dividing their prospective empires. There was also
a plan for the Western Hemisphere where the Japanese
got Alaska, British Columbia and Washington State as
well as Latin America. This was never agreed upon
between the powers.
Is there a source for this division of the world?
In particular I would like to pin down the proposal
for the Western Hemisphere.

The first casualty of war is truth.

GFH

[Aldrichtom]

Post by David Wilma
I never heard that Hitler wanted the old colonies back. They generally
got second or third pick to colonies. Were they that much of
an issue. My understanding is that German territorial and imperial
intentions were limited to Europe.

He would of needed a Navy that he didn't have; and for what?