Discussion:
Monuments Men
(too old to reply)
Merlin Dorfman
2014-02-14 05:09:36 UTC
Permalink
I've been expecting some traffic on this newsgroup about "Monuments
Men" but haven't seen anything yet. I did go to see the movie and enjoyed
it--more details available on request--but in my spirit of nit-picking let
me point out two things that jumped out at me:
- a King George V-class battleship parked a few hundred yards off the
beaches of Normandy. I suppose it's less jarring than the Iowa-class
battleship in the middle of a merchant convoy in "The Curious Case of
Benjamin Button."
- the wrong (1957) lyrics to "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas"
rather than the 1943-44 lyrics that would have been sung during the Battle
of the Bulge. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Have_Yourself_a_Merry_Little_Christmas for details on the changes.
GFH
2014-02-14 15:43:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
I've been expecting some traffic on this newsgroup about "Monuments
Men" but haven't seen anything yet. I did go to see the movie and enjoyed
it--more details available on request--but in my spirit of nit-picking let
- a King George V-class battleship parked a few hundred yards off the
beaches of Normandy. I suppose it's less jarring than the Iowa-class
battleship in the middle of a merchant convoy in "The Curious Case of
Benjamin Button."
- the wrong (1957) lyrics to "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas"
rather than the 1943-44 lyrics that would have been sung during the Battle
of the Bulge. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Have_Yourself_a_Merry_Little_Christmas for details on the changes.
It is pure Holywood; not history.

Yes, the US Army made an effort to 'save'
European art treasure -- but from looting
G.Is, not Germans.

I suggest two books:
Alford, Kenneth D.; "The Spoils of World War II"
(The American Military's Role in Stealing Europe's
Treasures); ISBN: 1-55972-237-1; 1994
Konstantin & Kozlov; "Beautiful Loot" (The Soviet
Plunder of Europe's Art Treasures); ISBN:0-679-44389-4

The biggest stash was west of Eisenach (Soviet Zone,
but 'liberated' by the USA). It was deep in a mine,
a good example of German efforts to protect art
treasures. In Auzerre, France, the 13th C. stain glass
windows in the church were removed and stored. Why?
To save them from Allied bombing. Most of the ancient
Greek sculptures were baked into lime by, you guessed
it, the Allies. And need I mention Monte Cassino?

GFH
Michele
2014-02-14 16:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by GFH
Post by Merlin Dorfman
I've been expecting some traffic on this newsgroup about "Monuments
Men" but haven't seen anything yet. I did go to see the movie and enjoyed
it--more details available on request--but in my spirit of nit-picking let
- a King George V-class battleship parked a few hundred yards off the
beaches of Normandy. I suppose it's less jarring than the Iowa-class
battleship in the middle of a merchant convoy in "The Curious Case of
Benjamin Button."
- the wrong (1957) lyrics to "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas"
rather than the 1943-44 lyrics that would have been sung during the Battle
of the Bulge. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Have_Yourself_a_Merry_Little_Christmas for details on the changes.
It is pure Holywood; not history.
You are misinformed. It is history. Look up the Roberts Commission and the
Monuments, Fine Arts, and Archives Program.
Post by GFH
Yes, the US Army made an effort to 'save'
European art treasure -- but from looting
G.Is, not Germans.
No. From the Germans who had looted them all over the place during their
conquests. Policing US troops was obviously also carried out, as a matter of
course.
Post by GFH
Alford, Kenneth D.; "The Spoils of World War II"
(The American Military's Role in Stealing Europe's
Treasures); ISBN: 1-55972-237-1; 1994
The same author wrote another couple of books about the plundering by the
Germans. I had a look at the book you suggest, and I am indeed moved by the
first pitiful story it recounts, about a theft perpetrated by US troops
against one German private citizen who just happened to own a factory and to
run it on slave labor manpower. Poor man.
Post by GFH
The biggest stash was west of Eisenach (Soviet Zone,
but 'liberated' by the USA). It was deep in a mine,
a good example of German efforts to protect art
treasures. In Auzerre, France, the 13th C. stain glass
windows in the church were removed and stored. Why?
To save them from Allied bombing. Most of the ancient
Greek sculptures were baked into lime by, you guessed
it, the Allies. And need I mention Monte Cassino?
No, because all of this latter part is irrelevant. Stealing stuff is one
thing. Damaging while making war is another. I am sure you will understand
the difference now that it has been pointed out.
Merlin Dorfman
2014-02-15 16:53:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:43:34 -0500, GFH wrote:

..
Post by GFH
Yes, the US Army made an effort to 'save'
European art treasure -- but from looting G.Is, not Germans.
Alford, Kenneth D.; "The Spoils of World War II"
(The American Military's Role in Stealing Europe's
Treasures); ISBN: 1-55972-237-1; 1994
I suspect that ordinary GIs were mostly interested in souvenirs like
flags or pistols, and in obviously valuable items like gold and jewelry.
Paintings and sculptures would seem to be far down the list.
Post by GFH
Konstantin & Kozlov; "Beautiful Loot" (The Soviet
Plunder of Europe's Art Treasures); ISBN:0-679-44389-4
Did the Russians take art that had been stolen from occupied countries, or
only art originally owned by Germans or Germany? If they took art that
the Germans had taken from occupied countries, is it on public display in
museums in Russia, or only, e.g., in government offices not open to the
public; and has there been any protest or effort by the legal owners to
get it back?
..
Post by GFH
The biggest stash was west of Eisenach (Soviet Zone,
but 'liberated' by the USA). It was deep in a mine,
a good example of German efforts to protect art treasures.
About the Germans taking the art for "safekeeping," do you have
records of consultations with the owners, who agreed to this removal, and/
or of the Germans paying for it?
..
Post by GFH
And need I mention Monte Cassino?
Monte Cassino was given as one of the reasons for creating the
Monuments Men group. And the Russians' taking art as "reparations" was
highlighted.

The movie highlights art the Nazis took from Belgium and France. Did
they also take art from occupied countries in Eastern Europe such as
Poland and Russia? From its ally until 1943, Italy? From Norway and
Denmark? Clearly they took art from private (primarily Jewish) owners in
Germany; did they also take it from German museums and churches?
GFH
2014-02-16 16:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
..
Post by GFH
Yes, the US Army made an effort to 'save'
European art treasure -- but from looting G.Is, not Germans.
Alford, Kenneth D.; "The Spoils of World War II"
(The American Military's Role in Stealing Europe's
Treasures); ISBN: 1-55972-237-1; 1994
I suspect that ordinary GIs were mostly interested in souvenirs like
flags or pistols, and in obviously valuable items like gold and jewelry.
Paintings and sculptures would seem to be far down the list.
Post by GFH
Konstantin & Kozlov; "Beautiful Loot" (The Soviet
Plunder of Europe's Art Treasures); ISBN:0-679-44389-4
Did the Russians take art that had been stolen from occupied countries, or
only art originally owned by Germans or Germany? If they took art that
the Germans had taken from occupied countries, is it on public display in
museums in Russia, or only, e.g., in government offices not open to the
public; and has there been any protest or effort by the legal owners to
get it back?
..
Post by GFH
The biggest stash was west of Eisenach (Soviet Zone,
but 'liberated' by the USA). It was deep in a mine,
a good example of German efforts to protect art treasures.
About the Germans taking the art for "safekeeping," do you have
records of consultations with the owners, who agreed to this removal, and/
or of the Germans paying for it?
If the trailer advertising Monument Men accurately
reflects the movie, the theory was that the Germans
would destroy the art if they lost the war. I do not
see much evidence of that. Yes, Hitler ordered the
burning of Paris, but did the Germans do it? No.
And look at the other major cities, like Rome. The
Germans evacuated Rome to spare it from destruction.
The Germans did not use Monte Cassino for military
purposes prior to the Allied bombing of the monastery.
The reason so many civilians were killed by the
bombing was that they sheltered next to Cassino because
it was not a war zone.

Who cares who the prewar owners were? They would not
be the postwar owners. It seems to me the important
question is whether the art survived the war? And if
now, why? The Germans made a major effort to protect
the art treasures of Europe from destruction.

Go look at the major art collection at Oberlin College.
Much of it was acquired in the late 1940s from art
dealers in Europe. New owners, but the art survived.

GFH

In the long run, we are all dead.
Merlin Dorfman
2014-02-16 17:11:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 11:26:11 -0500, GFH wrote:

..
If the trailer advertising Monument Men accurately reflects the movie,
the theory was that the Germans would destroy the art if they lost the
war.
The trailer may be deceptive in that regard. The Nazis did not steal
the art in order to destroy it--other than that which they regarded as
"degenerate," mainly modern art. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Degenerate_art) The intent was to keep it, some in private collections and
much of it in a huge museum Hitler intended to build in his home town of
Linz, Austria. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuhrermuseum)
The Wikipedia also notes that the Nazis did not always outright steal
the art. In many cases they made the owners "offers they could not
refuse," and/or paid in German currency that of course was worthless after
the war. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder)
Michele
2014-02-17 17:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
..
If the trailer advertising Monument Men accurately reflects the movie,
the theory was that the Germans would destroy the art if they lost the
war.
The trailer may be deceptive in that regard. The Nazis did not steal
the art in order to destroy it--other than that which they regarded as
"degenerate," mainly modern art. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Degenerate_art) The intent was to keep it, some in private collections and
much of it in a huge museum Hitler intended to build in his home town of
Linz, Austria. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuhrermuseum)
German artworks and plundered foreign artworks that were in Germany by 1945
survived the war only because Speer and others had by then concluded that
Hitler was a nutcase.

The Nerobefehl (Nero order) was not carried out. That is not to say that it
wasn't drafted up and issued by what passed for the German government at the
time. While most people remember that it was a "scorched earth" directive
for the destruction of military and industrial infrastructure, while
discussing artworks it is worth remembering that under that order, the
Germans intended to destroy "Sachwerte" - valuable objects - that could be
of value to the enemy not just for carrying on with the war, but also after
it.
Merlin Dorfman
2014-02-17 21:41:54 UTC
Permalink
..
Post by Merlin Dorfman
If the trailer advertising Monument Men accurately reflects the movie,
the theory was that the Germans would destroy the art if they lost the
war.
The trailer may be deceptive in that regard. The Nazis did not steal
the art in order to destroy it--other than that which they regarded as
"degenerate," mainly modern art. ... The intent was to keep it...
My mistake. While the Nazis stole the art with the intention to keep
it, as it became clear the war was lost the order to destroy the art was
given. ("Nerobefehl" as Michele pointed out.) Between Germans unwilling
to carry the order out, and Allied efforts such as the Monuments Men (and
the Russians who wanted it for themselves), much of the art was rescued.
GFH
2014-02-18 17:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
..
Post by Merlin Dorfman
If the trailer advertising Monument Men accurately reflects the movie,
the theory was that the Germans would destroy the art if they lost the
war.
The trailer may be deceptive in that regard. The Nazis did not steal
the art in order to destroy it--other than that which they regarded as
"degenerate," mainly modern art. ... The intent was to keep it...
My mistake. While the Nazis stole the art with the intention to keep
it, as it became clear the war was lost the order to destroy the art was
given. ("Nerobefehl" as Michele pointed out.) Between Germans unwilling
to carry the order out, and Allied efforts such as the Monuments Men (and
the Russians who wanted it for themselves), much of the art was rescued.
Is that why the art was stored deep in mines? Safe from
war damage. Some entrances were blasted to prevent looting.

And, keep in mind that the Soviets believed in 'reparations
in kind' -- meaning they took art works from Germany to replace
art lost in Russia. It is on open display today. I have no
problem with this failure to return art to former owners. It
will survive. No one 'owns' art; he is a steward. Stewardship
survives the 'owner'.

GFH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-17 01:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by GFH
If the trailer advertising Monument Men accurately
reflects the movie, the theory was that the Germans
would destroy the art if they lost the war. I do not
see much evidence of that. Yes, Hitler ordered the
burning of Paris, but did the Germans do it? No.
Well, the general in charge had clobbered both Sevastapol and Rotterdam
earlier, and ordered the kill of a lot of jews, under Hitler's orders,
so the allies might be forgiven for noticing a possible trend here.
Post by GFH
Who cares who the prewar owners were?
I suppose those owners, and their heirs
Post by GFH
They would not be the postwar owners.
Kinda like when a thief takes something from your house: "It's mine
now!"
Post by GFH
It seems to me the important
question is whether the art survived the war? And if
now, why? The Germans made a major effort to protect
the art treasures of Europe from destruction.
Apparently neither Polond nor the USSR had any art treasures, then. Or
perhaps you and I differ on what constitutes a "major effort".

Mike
Michele
2014-02-17 17:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by GFH
Post by Merlin Dorfman
About the Germans taking the art for "safekeeping," do you have
records of consultations with the owners, who agreed to this removal, and/
or of the Germans paying for it?
If the trailer advertising Monument Men accurately
reflects the movie, the theory was that the Germans
would destroy the art if they lost the war. I do not
see much evidence of that. Yes, Hitler ordered the
burning of Paris, but did the Germans do it? No.
And look at the other major cities, like Rome. The
Germans evacuated Rome to spare it from destruction.
The Germans did not use Monte Cassino for military
purposes prior to the Allied bombing of the monastery.
The reason so many civilians were killed by the
bombing was that they sheltered next to Cassino because
it was not a war zone.
Who cares who the prewar owners were?
Right. So your point about the poor German owners of valuables (as opposed
to real artworks) who were robbed by the Allied soldiers is moot. Who cares
about them?

They would not
Post by GFH
be the postwar owners. It seems to me the important
question is whether the art survived the war? And if
now, why? The Germans made a major effort to protect
the art treasures of Europe from destruction.
Not at all. You are a strange case of selective memory. You remember about
Monte Cassino but you forget about Belgrade, in which museums and art
galleries and national landmarks were flattened and burned down by German
bombers.

And therein you will also find another little difference between the Allies
and your saintly heroes.

The Allies bombed Monte Cassino because they believed - albeit mistakenly -
that in so doing they were pursuing a legitimate wartime objective, i.e.
winning the war.

The Germans did their best to destroy art collections in Belgrade not in the
pursuit of a legitimate wartime objective, but because Hitler had had a fit
of pique against the Yugoslavians. The latter had declared Belgrade an open
city and their units had vacated or were vacating it; the Germans could have
taken Belgrade _intact_ - with all its artworks intact.

Instead they chose pointless destruction.

Nor was Belgrade the only instance. I remember the case of ancient Polish
diocesan archives, priceless for their historical value, that the Germans
burned.

In case you are wondering, all of that is spoliation in war crimes parlance,
and it is in fact a war crime in itself.

---

Want another interesting difference? It is the same difference that one
finds in all the pathetic moral-equivalence attempts by Nazi apologists.

On the one hand, they find cases of criminal behavior by, say, US soldiers,
for instance the ascertained killing of Axis prisoners in Sicily in 1943 or
the alleged killing of SS personnel in a death camp in 1945.

On the other hand, they have the criminal behavior of the Nazis. For
instance, the killing of allied commandos upon Hitler's Kommandobefehl.

So they conclude that "everyone did it".

The interesting difference is of course, that the US soldiers who killed
prisoners did that on their own initiative, often on the battlefield or
right after a battle, or in, let's say, peculiar circumstances like upon the
discovery of a death camp.

German soldiers, on the contrary, handed prisoners in full uniform, who had
every right to be respected as POWs, to the Nazi police so that they could
be tortured and murdered. And they did that in compliance with a top order
that applied _to_the_whole_of_the_German_armed_forces.

In other words, on the one hand you have individual criminals. On the other
hand you have a criminal organization, the German armed forces.

The same applies to the stealing of artworks. Some Allied soldiers certainly
did that. They were individual criminals. On the contrary, the German armed
forces systematically plundered artworks on orders from above. They were a
criminal organization.

I'm sure you see the differences, now that they have been pointed out to
you. I'm glad to have been able to help you.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-20 05:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
The interesting difference is of course, that the US soldiers who killed
prisoners did that on their own initiative, often on the battlefield or
right after a battle, or in, let's say, peculiar circumstances like upon the
discovery of a death camp.
German soldiers, on the contrary, handed prisoners in full uniform, who had
every right to be respected as POWs, to the Nazi police so that they could
be tortured and murdered. And they did that in compliance with a top order
that applied _to_the_whole_of_the_German_armed_forces.
To be fair, the Wehrmacht initially refused to cooperate with the Einsatz-
gruppen, even arresting some of them in Poland. It took personal orders
from Hitler to remove the gruppen from normal military command (and control).
Post by Michele
In other words, on the one hand you have individual criminals. On the other
hand you have a criminal organization, the German armed forces.
I think a more accurate way to put it would be that the Western allies and
German armed forces did, indeed, commit war crimes. The German government,
over and above that, institutionalized the whole thing, by issuing orders
dictating certain atrocities.

A very big difference. Much like the Japanese and Soviets.

And yet over and above that, the Nazis INDUSTRIALIZED the slaughter of
PoWs, civilians, "undesirables", etc. Simply put, that was (and fortunately
remains) unheard-of outside Nazi Germany.

Mike
GFH
2014-02-20 15:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by Michele
The interesting difference is of course, that the US soldiers who killed
prisoners did that on their own initiative, often on the battlefield or
right after a battle, or in, let's say, peculiar circumstances like upon the
discovery of a death camp.
German soldiers, on the contrary, handed prisoners in full uniform, who had
every right to be respected as POWs, to the Nazi police so that they could
be tortured and murdered. And they did that in compliance with a top order
that applied _to_the_whole_of_the_German_armed_forces.
To be fair, the Wehrmacht initially refused to cooperate with the Einsatz-
gruppen, even arresting some of them in Poland. It took personal orders
from Hitler to remove the gruppen from normal military command (and control).
Post by Michele
In other words, on the one hand you have individual criminals. On the other
hand you have a criminal organization, the German armed forces.
I think a more accurate way to put it would be that the Western allies and
German armed forces did, indeed, commit war crimes. The German government,
over and above that, institutionalized the whole thing, by issuing orders
dictating certain atrocities.
A very big difference. Much like the Japanese and Soviets.
And yet over and above that, the Nazis INDUSTRIALIZED the slaughter of
PoWs, civilians, "undesirables", etc. Simply put, that was (and fortunately
remains) unheard-of outside Nazi Germany.
Consider the roughly 3 million Soviet troops captured by
the Germans in 1941. They were put into large 'camps'
and left to starve. No one spoke up. Stalin thought this
treatment of captured Soviet man would inspire others not
to surrender.

GFH
news
2014-02-21 00:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
And yet over and above that, the Nazis INDUSTRIALIZED the slaughter of
PoWs, civilians, "undesirables", etc. Simply put, that was (and fortunately
remains) unheard-of outside Nazi Germany.
You seem to be talking about specifically death camps as opposed to
labour camps where prisoners were systematically worked to death - as
was done by the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, Russia pretty much
continuously from 1971-1991 (less so after 1956), Maoist China,
various post-Tito Yugoslav nationalities...

One can argue to what extent of gifting infected blankets by agents of
the US government to various aboriginal tribes in the 19th century was
industrialized.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-21 05:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
And yet over and above that, the Nazis INDUSTRIALIZED the slaughter of
PoWs, civilians, "undesirables", etc. Simply put, that was (and fortunately
remains) unheard-of outside Nazi Germany.
You seem to be talking about specifically death camps as opposed to
labour camps where prisoners were systematically worked to death - as
Right; the difference between working people to death, and setting up an
industrial process to simply eliminate them. Building the camps with
express extermination chambers, industrial design to facilitate disposal
of the bodies and "recylcing" any valuable parts (dental fillings, gold
caps). Scheduling resources to transport the intended victims to the facility
(in time of war no less), etc.

Very different in kind from the sorts of mundane atrocities you mention.
Post by news
One can argue to what extent of gifting infected blankets by agents of
the US government to various aboriginal tribes in the 19th century was
industrialized.
18th century, and it was the British (Jeffrey Amherst). However, it is more
likely they were already exposed to the disease. There is only one small
outbreak recorded in any area the blankets were distributed, so it's
likely the blankets had no effect.

Mike
Roman W
2014-02-21 23:07:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 19:51:27 -0500, "news"
Post by news
You seem to be talking about specifically death camps as opposed to
labour camps where prisoners were systematically worked to death - as
was done by the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, Russia pretty much
continuously from 1971-1991 (less so after 1956), Maoist China,
various post-Tito Yugoslav nationalities...
And Belgian Congo. Slave labour in Congo supported Allied war effort
during WW2.

RW
Rich Rostrom
2014-02-22 16:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Sorry to veer OT, but this drive-by libel must be answered.
Post by news
One can argue to what extent of gifting infected blankets by agents of
the US government to various aboriginal tribes in the 19th century was
industrialized.
Only if one believes in this completely fabricated myth.

The only record of any such action even being discussed
is in one letter between two British colonial officials
in the mid-1700s.

In the 1800s, the U.S. government paid for the vaccination
of Indians to _prevent_ the spread of smallpox among them.

(This program was instituted at that request of the great
fur-trading companies, such as Astor. The western Indians
were their fur suppliers. If the Indians died off, they
would be out of business.)

ObWWII-related content: It is a constant attribute
of Nazi apologists (and other conspiracy theorists)
that they are extremely skeptical about the reports
of Nazi crimes, seizing on minor discrepancies or
ambiguities to dismiss mountains of solid evidence.
At the same time, they are extremely credulous about
any accusation against the U.S., or Britain, or their
allies.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-23 05:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
ObWWII-related content: It is a constant attribute
of Nazi apologists (and other conspiracy theorists)
that they are extremely skeptical about the reports
of Nazi crimes, seizing on minor discrepancies or
ambiguities to dismiss mountains of solid evidence.
At the same time, they are extremely credulous about
any accusation against the U.S., or Britain, or their
allies.
This brings up something that has always left me a bit amused. In the
60s, it was common for people identifying themselves as "conservative"
to state emphatically that "Roosevelt KNEW" about the impending attack
on Pearl Harbor, and let the men there die so he could "get us into the war".
In the 90s, it was those on the political left who adopted this exact
same viewpoint.

I am not aware which end of the political spectrum currently owns this view
:-)

Mike
Michele
2014-02-21 15:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by Michele
The interesting difference is of course, that the US soldiers who killed
prisoners did that on their own initiative, often on the battlefield or
right after a battle, or in, let's say, peculiar circumstances like upon the
discovery of a death camp.
German soldiers, on the contrary, handed prisoners in full uniform, who had
every right to be respected as POWs, to the Nazi police so that they could
be tortured and murdered. And they did that in compliance with a top order
that applied _to_the_whole_of_the_German_armed_forces.
To be fair, the Wehrmacht initially refused to cooperate with the Einsatz-
gruppen, even arresting some of them in Poland. It took personal orders
from Hitler to remove the gruppen from normal military command (and control).
Which does not negate anything of what I wrote. The Kommandobefehl applied
to all German armed forces. Each and every last German serviceman could find
himself in a situation in which his own command structure ordered him to be
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by Michele
In other words, on the one hand you have individual criminals. On the other
hand you have a criminal organization, the German armed forces.
The same applies to stealing. Some individual Western Allied soldiers
certainly pocketed watches or Zeiss cameras. All German soldiers could be,
and some were, ordered by their own service and command structure to
cooperate with the loading of trainloads of artworks.
Roman W
2014-02-21 23:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
The same applies to stealing. Some individual Western Allied
soldiers
Post by Michele
certainly pocketed watches or Zeiss cameras. All German soldiers could be,
and some were, ordered by their own service and command structure to
cooperate with the loading of trainloads of artworks.
Didn't the American Army make an organized effort to collect German
industrial technology in the areas they conquered?

Rw
GFH
2014-02-22 17:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
Post by Michele
The same applies to stealing. Some individual Western Allied
soldiers
Post by Michele
certainly pocketed watches or Zeiss cameras. All German soldiers
could be,
Post by Michele
and some were, ordered by their own service and command structure
to
Post by Michele
cooperate with the loading of trainloads of artworks.
Didn't the American Army make an organized effort to collect German
industrial technology in the areas they conquered?
Yes, Operation Paperclip.

GFH
Andrew Chaplin
2014-02-22 17:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman W
Didn't the American Army make an organized effort to collect German
industrial technology in the areas they conquered?
Would not that intellectual property be fair spoils of war? It was the
property of the German state and the latter's surrender was unconditional.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Roman W
2014-02-23 19:12:15 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:55:30 -0500, Andrew Chaplin
Post by Andrew Chaplin
Would not that intellectual property be fair spoils of war? It was the
property of the German state and the latter's surrender was
unconditional.

Umm, in this case robbing museums would also be OK. Also, the IP was
often the property of German private industry.

RW
Andrew Chaplin
2014-02-24 05:08:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman W
On Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:55:30 -0500, Andrew Chaplin
Post by Andrew Chaplin
Would not that intellectual property be fair spoils of war? It was
the
Post by Andrew Chaplin
property of the German state and the latter's surrender was
unconditional.
Umm, in this case robbing museums would also be OK. Also, the IP was
often the property of German private industry.
Was not German industry under full control of the German state? Frankly, the
Allies only had technological stripping of Germany as a means to
reparations, and we deserved compensation. We were right to gut that state
to ensure it was no threat.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Roman W
2014-02-24 16:26:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 00:08:31 -0500, Andrew Chaplin
Post by Andrew Chaplin
Was not German industry under full control of the German state? Frankly, the
Allies only had technological stripping of Germany as a means to
reparations, and we deserved compensation. We were right to gut that state
to ensure it was no threat.
Did they compensate the private shareholders?

RW
news
2014-02-26 06:26:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:55:30 -0500, Andrew Chaplin
Post by Andrew Chaplin
Post by Roman W
Didn't the American Army make an organized effort to collect German
industrial technology in the areas they conquered?
Would not that intellectual property be fair spoils of war? It was the
property of the German state and the latter's surrender was unconditional.
Operation Paperclip was more than just intellectual property - it was
intellectuals period the best known of which being Werner von Braun.
Rich Rostrom
2014-02-27 00:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman W
Didn't the American Army make an organized effort to collect German
industrial technology in the areas they conquered?
I think one should make a distinction between
collecting _information_ (including samples)
and collecting _goods_.

The U.S. collected information to be used by
American industry, but did not deprive Germany
of that information.

Whereas artwork and machinery carried off was
lost to the occupied country.

The "looting" that might be ascribed to the
U.S. in this case would be the voiding of
German patent rights, which have no physical
existence. In many cases the process, technique,
or device was not patented, so there was no
loss except of a possible "trade secret".
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Roman W
2014-02-27 00:59:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 19:27:53 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
The U.S. collected information to be used by
American industry, but did not deprive Germany
of that information.
It deprived it of a competitive advantage. If you dispute the reality
of Germany's loss, you place yourself against a well established
legal tradition of "intellectual property".

RW
Michael Emrys
2014-02-27 05:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Whereas artwork and machinery carried off was lost to the occupied
country.
ISTR we carried off a lot of V-2 rockets. Not that I am complaining.
Those were justifiable spoils of war and the Germans no longer had any
legitimate use for them...if they ever did.

Michael
news
2014-03-02 05:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
Whereas artwork and machinery carried off was lost to the occupied
country.
ISTR we carried off a lot of V-2 rockets. Not that I am complaining.
Those were justifiable spoils of war and the Germans no longer had any
legitimate use for them...if they ever did.
It should be noted that at least 100 of those were located at the time
of the surrender in territory the US army occupied but in the Soviet
zone. A very high priority was placed on evacuating said V-2's from
that portion of Germany before the territory was handed over to the
Red Army.

As expected when the Russians found out they were livid - and
completely ignored by every level of the US command.
GFH
2014-03-02 18:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
Post by Michael Emrys
Whereas artwork and machinery carried off was lost to the occupied
country.
ISTR we carried off a lot of V-2 rockets. Not that I am complaining.
Those were justifiable spoils of war and the Germans no longer had any
legitimate use for them...if they ever did.
It should be noted that at least 100 of those were located at the time
of the surrender in territory the US army occupied but in the Soviet
zone. A very high priority was placed on evacuating said V-2's from
that portion of Germany before the territory was handed over to the
Red Army.
The US Army did a lot of "looting" in the
part of Germany which was predetermined to
be in the Soviet Zone. Consider the removal
of equipment and key personnel from Zeiss in
Jena. And, yes, the large storage of German
gold and art treasures was in the Soviet Zone.
As was Mittelbau Dora (near Nordhausen).

GFH
Michele
2014-02-24 16:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
Post by Michele
The same applies to stealing. Some individual Western Allied
soldiers
Post by Michele
certainly pocketed watches or Zeiss cameras. All German soldiers
could be,
Post by Michele
and some were, ordered by their own service and command structure
to
Post by Michele
cooperate with the loading of trainloads of artworks.
Didn't the American Army make an organized effort to collect German
industrial technology in the areas they conquered?
Definitely. The really quite significant differences between the German
effort to collect artworks and the Allied effort (not just the US Army -
everyone did his damn best, including the Krasnaya Armia) to collect
technology are the following:

- the artworks collected by the Germans could and by rights should have
ended under the Nerobefehl, which would have destroyed not just German
artworks but also stolen artworks in Germany, whereas none of the Allies
intended to destroy technological know-how, and indeed none did;
- the Allies were entitled to reparations and their best bet would be to get
them in kind, whereas the Germans, having been the initiators of a slew of
unwarranted wars of aggression, conquest and annihilation, never had such
rights,
- the artworks collected by the Germans would have been only in part, had
they won, displayed in public German museums. A sizable part of them were
stolen by official top-down policy, but were headed in private collections
of the top Nazi bosses like Goering, whereas the technology collected by the
Allies was used by their respective states, not pocketed by Truman or
Stalin,
- taking into account the postwar situation, finally, the Germans ended up
signing an unconditional surrender, whereas the French, Poles, Yugoslavians,
Soviets etc. never did such a thing, thus the Allies could really do
whatever they wanted in Germany _with the Germans' consent_, while the
Germans were not entitled to such a leeway in the countries they occupied.
Roman W
2014-02-24 21:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
- the artworks collected by the Germans would have been only in part, had
they won, displayed in public German museums. A sizable part of them were
stolen by official top-down policy, but were headed in private
collections
Post by Michele
of the top Nazi bosses like Goering, whereas the technology
collected by the
Post by Michele
Allies was used by their respective states, not pocketed by Truman or
Stalin,
Not only by Allied states, but also by their corporations. Military-
industrial complex and all that.

RW
Jim H.
2014-02-25 18:53:18 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, February 21, 2014 6:05:57 PM UTC-5, Roman W wrote:
.....
Post by Roman W
Didn't the American Army make an organized effort to collect German
industrial technology in the areas they conquered?
Rw
IIRC, Operation Paperclip was mostly focused on advanced technology,
mostly weapons or aviation.

I read "Small Wonder", a history of the (original) VW Beetle,
about 40 years ago. My memory of it says that rights, plans and
production tooling for the Beetle were offered to the English and
Americans as war reparations. Henry Ford turned it down, saying that
no American would want a car that was so small & noisy.

The book also told of a visit by members of a French commission
looking for industrial machinery looted from France early in the war.
The VW factory had just gotten up and running post-war, providing
scarce work for Germans. It was totally dependent on a butt-welding
machine that welded two narrower strips of steel together for the
car's roof stamping. The machine had come from France.

They covered it with tarps & fed the French a lavish lunch with
much wine. Then they took them for a ride in a Schimmwagen (amphibious
VW) that ended with an 'accidental' dunking in a local canal.
The dampened Frenchmen never looked at the tarp-covered welder, and
VW production continued.

This was during the era when they were selling a few cars to the British
Army occupation force. They also traded whole cars for truckloads of
potatoes (to pay & feed the plant workers), and railcars full of coal
to run the plant's boilers.

I have no idea of how true any of this is. IIRC, the book was written
for the VW company, so may have contained some whitewash. Dr.
Porsche was imprisoned for a few years by the French, I think for
having used French slave laborers.

Jim H.
Rich Rostrom
2014-02-22 16:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
Post by Michele
In other words, on the one hand you have individual criminals. On the
other jand you have a criminal organization, the German armed forces.
The same applies to stealing. Some individual Western Allied soldiers
certainly pocketed watches or Zeiss cameras. All German soldiers could be,
and some were, ordered by their own service and command structure to
cooperate with the loading of trainloads of artworks.
The same could be said of the Soviet Army at both ends.

Looting by individual soldiers was explicitly permitted
by the Soviet Army - soldiers were entitled to send
parcels home, the amount increasing with the soldier's
rank.

The Soviets also looted Germany (and Manchuria and
North Korea) of industrial machinery.

In Europe, the Soviets carried off much artwork from
Germany. One wonders if the Soviets had their own
"Monuments Men" force to supervise this activity.

A lesser question, which has not been much addressed:
looting by Axis ally forces.

This would include Italian forces in Yugoslavia,
Greece, and possibly Tunisia; Hungarian forces in
Yugoslavia; Bulgarian forces in Yugoslavia and
Greece; and Axis forces generally in the USSR.

Another odd question would be German looting from
Italy. None before the Italian surrender, of course.
Even later, once the RSI was established it would
be constrained.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Roman W
2014-02-21 23:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
Not at all. You are a strange case of selective memory. You
remember about
Post by Michele
Monte Cassino but you forget about Belgrade, in which museums and art
galleries and national landmarks were flattened and burned down by German
bombers.
Also about Warsaw being burned to the ground after the fall of the
Warsaw Uprising as a punishment. Valuable Polish historical archives
were burned then.

RW
Roman W
2014-02-21 23:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by GFH
The Germans did not use Monte Cassino for military
purposes prior to the Allied bombing of the monastery.
This is false. They garrisoned it before the bombing.

RW
news
2014-02-21 23:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman W
Post by GFH
The Germans did not use Monte Cassino for military
purposes prior to the Allied bombing of the monastery.
This is false. They garrisoned it before the bombing.
RW
From what I read about it, it was bombed because it was garrisoned by
Germans.
Michele
2014-02-24 16:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
Post by Roman W
Post by GFH
The Germans did not use Monte Cassino for military
purposes prior to the Allied bombing of the monastery.
This is false. They garrisoned it before the bombing.
RW
From what I read about it, it was bombed because it was garrisoned by
Germans.
It really does not matter one whit. It is a Nazi apologists' hobby horse
that the abbey was not garrisoned and thus the Western Allies committed
something unspeakable.

Unfortunately, the Allies _believed_ the abbey was garrisoned. At the time,
that was enough to consider it as a military objective. Even now, under
Article 57, Additional Protocol I 1977, to Geneva IV, if a combatant has
done "everything feasible" to ascertain that a "civilian object" is being
used for a military purpose (Art. 52) by the enemy, then the protection
normally given to that civilian object is superseded.

If indeed no enemy troops were inside the monastery, then the bombing was a
tragic mistake - not a deliberate, wanton, pointless destruction like that
visited upon Belgrade by the Germans.

Counterproof: the Germans who bombed Rotterdam _believed_ that the city and
indeed the country were still at war. They weren't. This was no war crime or
atrocity, however; it was a bona fide mistake. Indeed the issue was looked
into, and no trial was carried out.

Thus, whether the Germans really were not present inside the abbey is
immaterial.
Rich
2014-02-25 15:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
Thus, whether the Germans really were not present inside the abbey is
immaterial.
Thank you for sparing me the time and trouble of replying Michele.
Yes, it is highly unlikely that German troops were in the Abbey.
Yes, it is true that the Allied command became fixated on the "threat"
of the Abbey's position. Yes, the Germans attempted to make it clear
the Abbey was unoccupied. Yes, the Allies didn't believe it.

It was not a criminal act. It was a tragic and unnecessary mistake.

Like Rotterdam, it was a field day for the opposite sides'
propagandists.
Michele
2014-02-26 15:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by Michele
Thus, whether the Germans really were not present inside the abbey is
immaterial.
Thank you for sparing me the time and trouble of replying Michele.
Yes, it is highly unlikely that German troops were in the Abbey.
Yes, it is true that the Allied command became fixated on the "threat"
of the Abbey's position. Yes, the Germans attempted to make it clear
the Abbey was unoccupied. Yes, the Allies didn't believe it.
It was not a criminal act. It was a tragic and unnecessary mistake.
Like Rotterdam, it was a field day for the opposite sides'
propagandists.
My pleasure. I will now try to offer a detailed treatment of the issue.

The key tenets concerning monuments, artworks, cultural landmarks and the
like are actually just two and very simple:

- do not plunder;
- do not cause unnecessary destruction.

These are so obvious that they were part of the customary laws of war before
1907, and since 1907 they were enshrined in the Hague Convention IV 1907 -
of which Germany was a signatory, but naturally we know that Nazi Germany
violated its international commitments wholesale.

Now, as to plunder, we have seen in this thread the preposterous notion that
the Germans moved away artworks in order "to protect them" against the
destruction of war; a blatant lie, easily exposed.
Sure, the Germans sent the stuff to mines, a good place for safeguarding
them from air bombing and battlefield bombardment... and also a good place
for hiding them.
Now, were there no mines in France, Southern Italy, or Poland? Yes, there
were. Yet the Germans, at a time when their military operations suffered
from a shortage of rolling stock, loaded trainloads of artworks and sent
them to _German_ mines.
Sure, they wanted to protect the loot, like any other thief does not want
his loot to be damaged.
The Germans were thieves.

Another argument we have seen is the classic staple of moral equivalence of
Nazi apologists that "everyone did it". Sure, there were individual US
soldiers, as we have been reminded, that stole jewellery or watches or
cameras from enemy POWs or civilians. And, I'll add, probably the US armed
forces were too lax in enforcing their prohibitions against this, and to
lenient in dealing with violations.
All of this does not equate with an armed force that turns stealing into a
structural mission, hierarchically organized. Like the German armed forces
did.
To make a comparison, suppose your cousin lives in your neighborhood, works
for the same company as you, and plays in your bowling club. Suppose your
cousin is a thief. Does this make you, your family, your neighbors, your
work colleagues and your friends at the bowling club all thieves?
No, because the thieving is an individual activity by your cousin; you are
no accomplice of his; and your family, your neighborhood, your company and
your bowling club do not count thieving as part of their everyday,
structural organized activities.
On the contrary, when a full company of German soldiers emptied a museum and
loaded the artworks on a train, acting under regular, official orders from
their battalion HQ, in turn carrying out standard official policies of the
German army and of the German state - that makes all German soldiers
thieves. Just like all the mafiosi in an organized crime outfit are
criminals.
The Germans were thieves.

Now on to destruction. If the enemy is using a place for military purposes,
then that is a legitimate target, your objective being to wage war and win
it. Even bombing an enemy city, and in so doing destroying a monument, can
be a legitimate act of war if you comply with some conditions. Again, the
bottom line is that you are doing that to win the war, and thus the
destruction, however regrettable and barbaric, is not unnecessary.

That applies even to cases when you, in good faith, _believed_ that that was
what you were doing. The Germans believed that Rotterdam had not surrendered
when they bombed it; the bombing was carried out in good faith in order to
wage the war. It was a legitimate operation. The Allies believed that Monte
Cassino was occupied by enemy troops when they bombed it; the bombing was
carried out in good faith in order to wage the war. It was a legitimate
operation.

To contrast this, you have the examples of Belgrade, Warsaw, or the diocesan
archives in Poland.
Belgrade had been declared an open city and the Yugoslavians were not going
to oppose the German entry in that city. Bombing it pursued no military
objective at all; it was not done in order to wage and win the war. It was
done as a _punishment_ for the Yugoslavian population.
Warsaw had surrendered. Continuing the destruction of it served no military
purpose at all; it was not done in order to wage and win the war. It was
done out of a desire for revenge.
The Polish diocesan archives only had a historical value. Destroying them
did not help the German war. They were burned just out of spite. Probably
the Germans disliked the notion that Poland did have a long, rich history of
its own regardless of the wanderings of Teutonic Knights and Prussian
noblemen, so they tried to obliterate that.
All of these are cases of unnecessary destruction, wanton havoc, spoliation.
The Germans were vandalizing hoodlums.
news
2014-03-02 05:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
On the contrary, when a full company of German soldiers emptied a museum and
loaded the artworks on a train, acting under regular, official orders from
their battalion HQ, in turn carrying out standard official policies of the
German army and of the German state - that makes all German soldiers
thieves. Just like all the mafiosi in an organized crime outfit are
criminals.
The Germans were thieves.
So by that criteria does that make the US Army in Sicily criminals by
virtue of their collaboration with Sicilian mafiosi? Or later with the
Neopolitan mafia south of Naples?

I'm not completely sure of your definitions and want to make sure I've
got this straight. In your other examples (Rotterdam, Monte Cassino
etc) I generally agree with you.
Michele
2014-03-03 15:43:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
Post by Michele
On the contrary, when a full company of German soldiers emptied a museum and
loaded the artworks on a train, acting under regular, official orders from
their battalion HQ, in turn carrying out standard official policies of the
German army and of the German state - that makes all German soldiers
thieves. Just like all the mafiosi in an organized crime outfit are
criminals.
The Germans were thieves.
So by that criteria does that make the US Army in Sicily criminals by
virtue of their collaboration with Sicilian mafiosi? Or later with the
Neopolitan mafia south of Naples?
No, of course. The mafia and the US Army were two _different, separate_
organizations. They did cooperate, in a sense they were allies; but if that
would amount to considering them both equally responsible for the crimes one
of the two organizations did carry out and the other did not, then naturally
the USA in those years would bear equal responsibility as the USSR for
Stalin's crimes. And Finland for Germany's, etc.

There is evidently something that does not work there, and the thing that
does not work is the purpose of the cooperation.

When a run-of-the-mill German officer carried out orders coming from Goering
in order to steal a painting from a Jewish owner, the officer was
cooperating with Goering and they had the same purpose: stealing the
painting and having it end in Goering's collection.

When the USA cooperated with the Soviet Union, the purpose was winning the
war; while the Soviet Union coincidentally did Katyn, the USA did not
cooperate on that.

The same applies in Sicily. The mafiosi cooperated with the US Army (this is
more accurate than stating it the other way around). The USA were trying to
win a war and to avoid civilian unrest in Sicily as they did that, and the
mafiosi helped in that; so the cooperation had that purpose.

Additionally the mafiosi also wanted to make money and to re-establish their
power. To the US authorities, that was a side effect, not the purpose of the
cooperation.

It's unfortunate that sometimes, a district attorney has to strike a deal
with a criminal, which may even send the criminal scot free. The district
attorney is cooperating with the criminal, but his purpose is not to set
that criminal scot free; it's to bag much bigger fish with the cooperation
of that criminal. Thus the district attorney is not a criminal.

Naturally there are those who espouse the line of "no deals with criminals
at all, period". That is an entirely justifiable moral position. But many
district attorneys do not think that that is more effective in fighting
crime at the end of the day.
news
2014-03-07 17:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
It's unfortunate that sometimes, a district attorney has to strike a deal
with a criminal, which may even send the criminal scot free. The district
attorney is cooperating with the criminal, but his purpose is not to set
that criminal scot free; it's to bag much bigger fish with the cooperation
of that criminal. Thus the district attorney is not a criminal.
Naturally there are those who espouse the line of "no deals with criminals
at all, period". That is an entirely justifiable moral position. But many
district attorneys do not think that that is more effective in fighting
crime at the end of the day.
Thanks for your analysis - I pretty much agree with you all along the
line but it wasn't totally clear.

Presumably the counter-argument along the DA lines here was "we're not
that thrilled cooperating with the Mafia but if it helps kill more
Germans and Fascisti and gets us to Rome faster...."

GFH
2014-02-25 15:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
Post by news
Post by Roman W
Post by GFH
The Germans did not use Monte Cassino for military
purposes prior to the Allied bombing of the monastery.
This is false. They garrisoned it before the bombing.
RW
From what I read about it, it was bombed because it was garrisoned by
Germans.
It really does not matter one whit. It is a Nazi apologists' hobby horse
that the abbey was not garrisoned and thus the Western Allies committed
something unspeakable.
Unfortunately, the Allies _believed_ the abbey was garrisoned. At the time,
that was enough to consider it as a military objective. Even now, under
Article 57, Additional Protocol I 1977, to Geneva IV, if a combatant has
done "everything feasible" to ascertain that a "civilian object" is being
used for a military purpose (Art. 52) by the enemy, then the protection
normally given to that civilian object is superseded.
If indeed no enemy troops were inside the monastery, then the bombing was a
tragic mistake - not a deliberate, wanton, pointless destruction like that
visited upon Belgrade by the Germans.
Counterproof: the Germans who bombed Rotterdam _believed_ that the city and
indeed the country were still at war. They weren't. This was no war crime or
atrocity, however; it was a bona fide mistake. Indeed the issue was looked
into, and no trial was carried out.
Thus, whether the Germans really were not present inside the abbey is
immaterial.
Yes, it is immaterial -- the bombing cannot be
reversed today. But:

It is an open question, which is why I referenced
a rather long section of a book om Monte Cassino.
This book, unlike most, presents the evidence and
leaves the reader to decide for himself.

Consider Monument Man Capt. Sidney Biehler Waugh.
Quotes from his diary:
He wrote that Monument Men were "sentimentalists
in uniform .. who would gladly have held up the
whole progress of the war to have saved some little
remnant of their particular hobby, or are really
here to make up lecture notes for the first five
years after their return to Princeton."

He claimed the bombing ban was lifted "partly
through my efforts."

Before the bombing he wrote: "I honestly believe
it is all the fault of that damn Abbey -- of the
sentimental criminals who cling to the idea of the
holy church of Rome."
"I can't remember anything I have seen or done that
made me as happy as the sight of the abbey being
blown off the top of the hill."
I loved to see the symbolic breakdown of the church
and monument tradition."

The abbot wrote a statement that there were no Germans
in the abbey when it was bombed. But:
1) He was standing in a German command office when he
signed it.
2) One can read the statement that the Germans evacuated
the abbey to avoid the bombing.

For what it is worth, no monk or German was killed by
the bombing.

Yes, I could quote many Allied books that claim the German
were using the abbey before the bombing. And I could quote
many German books which claim the Germans did not use the
abbey before the bombing.

And, getting back to saving art, there is no question that
the German moved many of the art treasures to the Vatican
before the war advanced to the Monte Cassino area. And
much of that art came from Naples -- moved by the Germans
to Monte Cassino to avoid destruction during the fighting
in Naples.

My point: Germans did a lot to prevent war damage to art
treasures. The Allied record includes many examples of
lack of care to avoid unnecessary damage to art treasures.
In short: There was good and bad on both sides.

GFH
Rich
2014-02-25 17:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by GFH
Yes, it is immaterial -- the bombing cannot be
(snip)

That rather disingenuously misses the point of just what
"is immaterial", which is that it does not matter if German
forces were or were not in the Abbey. Nor does it matter whether
or not the "bombing can be reversed today". Nor does it matter
what Capt. Waugh thought then. The bombing was a legal act and
not the illegal act you keep trying to imply it was when you
attempt to refocus the question on its immaterial aspects.
Michele
2014-02-25 18:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by GFH
Post by Michele
If indeed no enemy troops were inside the monastery, then the bombing was a
tragic mistake - not a deliberate, wanton, pointless destruction like that
visited upon Belgrade by the Germans.
Counterproof: the Germans who bombed Rotterdam _believed_ that the city and
indeed the country were still at war. They weren't. This was no war crime or
atrocity, however; it was a bona fide mistake. Indeed the issue was looked
into, and no trial was carried out.
Thus, whether the Germans really were not present inside the abbey is
immaterial.
Yes, it is immaterial -- the bombing cannot be
reversed today.
You seem not to have understood why the actual presence or absence of enemy
troops inside the abbey is immaterial. It is not because the bombing cannot
be reversed today. It is because the Allies believed there were enemy troops
inside, which made it a legitimate military objective.

The bombing of Belgrade monuments also cannot be reversed today. Yet the
fact that the German commanders knew very well that they were bombing an
open city is and was material - just ask Löhr. Or, you could just ask him,
were it not for the fact that he was found guilty and shot for that war
crime.
Post by GFH
In short: There was good and bad on both sides.
Sure! Save that one side - the Germans - was infinitely worse than the
other. The Allies did not bomb Monte Cassino out of a seething appetite for
wanton destruction, which is what the Germans did to Belgrade, or out of a
rabid desire for havoc and revenge, which is what the Germans did in Warsaw.
Admit that, and you will begin to understand the issue.
GFH
2014-02-22 17:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman W
Post by GFH
The Germans did not use Monte Cassino for military
purposes prior to the Allied bombing of the monastery.
This is false. They garrisoned it before the bombing.
I refer you to Hapgood's Monte Casino. There is no
firm opinion given by the author. You will have to
read more than one page. Read Chapter 43 (page 195
in my book) through Chapter 54 (ends on page 248).
One will read the German statements, the written
statements of the Abbot, and the USA intelligence
given to the airmen (the Germans have made the monastery
"a key defense point" and it is "loaded with heavy
guns".)

How do you translate "Ist Abt noch im Kloster?"
Abt is a common German abbreviation for battalion
headquarters; it also means abbot. Of course if
you look at the next sentence ("Sind Moenche
darinnen?" which translation is correct.

GFH
Don Phillipson
2014-02-14 15:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
I've been expecting some traffic on this newsgroup about "Monuments
Men" but haven't seen anything yet.
Was there in the movie anything not published in the 20th century (e.g.
Lynn Nicholas, The Rape of Europa: the fate of Europe's treasures in the
Third Reich and the Second World War (Vintage, 1994)) ?
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news
2014-02-15 00:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
I've been expecting some traffic on this newsgroup about "Monuments
Men" but haven't seen anything yet. I did go to see the movie and enjoyed
it--more details available on request--but in my spirit of nit-picking let
I may be part of a small minority of people who actually read the book
on which the movie was based. I have only seen the previews, but it
looks a hell of a lot more exciting than the book was.
GFH
2014-02-16 16:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
I've been expecting some traffic on this newsgroup about "Monuments
Men" but haven't seen anything yet. I did go to see the movie and enjoyed
it--more details available on request--but in my spirit of nit-picking let
- a King George V-class battleship parked a few hundred yards off the
beaches of Normandy. I suppose it's less jarring than the Iowa-class
battleship in the middle of a merchant convoy in "The Curious Case of
Benjamin Button."
Let me call everyone's attention to a booktv
presentation of a talk by Robert Edsel:
http://www.booktv.org/Program/10855/Author+Robert+Edsel+Takes+Your+Questions+LIVE+on+Book+TV+Saturday+February+22nd+at+11am+ET.aspx

GFH
Merlin Dorfman
2014-02-18 19:20:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 11:26:48 -0500, GFH wrote:

..
Let me call everyone's attention to a booktv presentation of a talk by
http://www.booktv.org/Program/10855/Author+Robert+Edsel+Takes+Your
+Questions+LIVE+on+Book+TV+Saturday+February+22nd+at+11am+ET.aspx

If you go to the Book TV web page (http://www.booktv.org/) now, and
click on the Featured Programs "Watch" link for the Edsel presentation,
Edsel's talk at the World War II Museum will be displayed.
GFH
2014-02-19 15:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by GFH
..
Let me call everyone's attention to a booktv presentation of a talk by
http://www.booktv.org/Program/10855/Author+Robert+Edsel+Takes+Your
+Questions+LIVE+on+Book+TV+Saturday+February+22nd+at+11am+ET.aspx
If you go to the Book TV web page (http://www.booktv.org/) now, and
click on the Featured Programs "Watch" link for the Edsel presentation,
Edsel's talk at the World War II Museum will be displayed.
True, I posted that information. The talk was given in 2009.
I assume that the movie inspired this upgrade to a Featured
Program statue.

Note the origins of the monument men in the US Army.

GFH
Merlin Dorfman
2014-02-19 21:02:32 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:39:43 -0500, GFH wrote:

..
Post by GFH
Post by GFH
Let me call everyone's attention to a booktv presentation of a talk by
http://www.booktv.org/Program/10855/Author+Robert+Edsel+Takes+Your
+Questions+LIVE+on+Book+TV+Saturday+February+22nd+at+11am+ET.aspx
If you go to the Book TV web page (http://www.booktv.org/) now, and
click on the Featured Programs "Watch" link for the Edsel presentation,
Edsel's talk at the World War II Museum will be displayed.
True, I posted that information. The talk was given in 2009.
I assume that the movie inspired this upgrade to a Featured Program
statue.
Yes, what I should have said/added was that there will be a new talk
and question/answer session on "Monuments Men" with Robert Edsel at 11 AM
US East Coast time Saturday Feb. 22. The link GFH provided will, at that
time, take you to the live session.
GFH
2014-02-20 15:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
..
Post by GFH
Post by GFH
Let me call everyone's attention to a booktv presentation of a talk by
http://www.booktv.org/Program/10855/Author+Robert+Edsel+Takes+Your
+Questions+LIVE+on+Book+TV+Saturday+February+22nd+at+11am+ET.aspx
If you go to the Book TV web page (http://www.booktv.org/) now, and
click on the Featured Programs "Watch" link for the Edsel presentation,
Edsel's talk at the World War II Museum will be displayed.
True, I posted that information. The talk was given in 2009.
I assume that the movie inspired this upgrade to a Featured Program
statue.
Yes, what I should have said/added was that there will be a new talk
and question/answer session on "Monuments Men" with Robert Edsel at 11 AM
US East Coast time Saturday Feb. 22. The link GFH provided will, at that
time, take you to the live session.
I did not know about that talk. I recommend watching the 2009
talk first, as it gives a lot of basic information.

GFH
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