Pre-war German use of Russian land?

[Jim H.]

I seem to recall reading somewhere a few decades ago
that Germany tested tanks or tank tactics in Russia
a few years before WWII hostilities began. I think
this was claimed to be a way of avoiding portions of
the Versailles treaty.

True? Details? How was Russia compensated?

Jim H.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Post by Jim H.
I seem to recall reading somewhere a few decades ago
that Germany tested tanks or tank tactics in Russia
a few years before WWII hostilities began. I think
this was claimed to be a way of avoiding portions of
the Versailles treaty.
True? Details? How was Russia compensated?

The Germans actually started liaison with the USSR in the
early 1920's, and moved to establishing joint bases in the
mid 1920's.

Places like the Soviet experimental camp at Kama/Kazan for
the army, Lipetsk for the Luftwaffe, during the 1920's and early
1930's. Lipetsk grew to around 300 personnel.

The idea was information exchange, both sides gaining
benefits.

The Germans sent their experimental tank designs starting
in 1929, along with troops to undertake tactical training.

The agreement to establish Lipetsk was signed on 15 April
1925, it was shut down in September 1933.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Kenneth Young]

Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The Germans sent their experimental tank designs starting
in 1929, along with troops to undertake tactical training.

According to most accounts the Germans deliberately did not send
advanced transmission or suspension designs for testing at Kazan. The
soviets ended up buying Vickers export models and a Christie tank they
also got a proper licence to build Vickers derived tanks resulting in
various models of the T26 and some mediocre amphibious tanks. The plans
for the Independent were apparently hawked round Europe resulting in
multi turret designs in Germany and Russia. In Germany only prototypes
were produced.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Post by Kenneth Young

Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The Germans sent their experimental tank designs starting
in 1929, along with troops to undertake tactical training.

According to most accounts the Germans deliberately did not send
advanced transmission or suspension designs for testing at Kazan.

According to Thomas Jentz in his book Panzertruppen,

March 1927, two each experimental Armeewagon 20 ordered from
Daimler-Benz, Krupp and Rheinmetall, code name Grosstraktor,
7.5 cm gun in fully traversable turret, soft steel composition. All
six completed by July 1929, sent to Russia. These were the first
tank designs the Germans tried since WWI.

Leichtraktor, ordered in October 1928, 2 each ordered from Krupp
and Rheinmetall, 3.7 cm gun, 6 tons, assembled in May 1930, all
four sent to Russia. All ten had nor radios along rear mounted
engines and rear drive sprockets, which were found to easily
throw the track when turning on soft ground.

The next design was the Kleintraktor, rear engine, front drive
sprocket, chassis only, one built by Krupp in September 1932,
based on Carden-Lloyd chassis.

So all the tanks they had to end 1932 were sent.

The next designs did not turn up until the second half of 1933, after
Hitler came to power. The first Panzer unit was created in November.
The Kazan school was not officially shut down until 31 October 1934.

Know of any other vehicles? I have seen a claim the Germans did
not send any vehicles with Maybach transmissions. Also it seems
the Germans had only involved firms that did not have overseas
branches which meant little knowledge was gained about mass
production.

Until the German vehicles turned up they had been using Soviet
tanks at Kazan. As of January 1930 all 30 Soviet and all
German tanks present at Kazan were not working.

Seems in 1928 the USSR had about 18,000 motor vehicles,
most imported, production for 1928 had been 835.

Post by Kenneth Young
The
soviets ended up buying Vickers export models and a Christie tank they
also got a proper licence to build Vickers derived tanks resulting in
various models of the T26 and some mediocre amphibious tanks. The plans
for the Independent were apparently hawked round Europe resulting in
multi turret designs in Germany and Russia. In Germany only prototypes
were produced.

The Russians were buying tanks from the Czechs, Italians and
then the British in the late 1920's and into 1930. Plus Christie
designs in 1931.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.