How many rounds were fired?

[Mario]

Is there any number?

[Duwop]

Post by Mario
Is there any number?
--
oiram

Yes, any number of rounds were fired.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Mario
Is there any number?

First examined by US Army historian S.L.A. Marshall
in Men Against Fire: The Problem of Battle Command (1947).
His methods were later criticized (cf. Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.L.A._Marshall

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Mario
Is there any number?

By who, at what?

Enormous numbers of rounds were fired by anti-aircraft machine guns
(including aircraft guns - I compiled some numbers indicating
that the majority of of U.S. .50 caliber machine guns were fitted
to aircraft.)

There were also lots of rounds expended in training. Many soldiers
fired more rounds in training than in combat.

[JL McClellan]

Post by Mario
Is there any number?

Short answer==No

First, define "rounds."
Small arms, of course (rifle, pistol, submachine gun)
Machine guns? Light (rifle caliber)? Heavy?
Cannon (for most purposes, 20-mm and up)? Only fixed rounds, or projectile +
propellant? (would include large-caliber naval guns, some siege weapons)
Barrage rockets?
Mortar rounds?
How about aerial bombs?

I saw a number some years ago of some 14,000 small-arms rounds per casualty.
Multiplying that by casualty count sets a lower bound for small-arms.

In areas with fairly static fronts (eg, Italy in the Winter War) it was not
uncommon for troops to build underground habitations from spent artillery
cartridges. That's a lot of artillery.

Any of several landings involved expenditure of tens of thousands of rounds
of naval artillery.

Production numbers, if they were available, would set a reasonable upper
limit, as not all rounds produced were expended, but numbers from Japan and
the Soviets are not available. And not all of the players were US, UK, USSR
and the Axis.

If you were to start doing serious research on this question (doubtful from
the presentation, but who knows?) you will find a rabbit hole that it is
easy to fall down and get lost in.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Post by Mario
Is there any number?

There are probably studies but I do not know of anyone totalling
the reported ammunition expenditures.

The US War Production Board puts US small arms ammunition
production July 1940 to August 1945 inclusive as 41,746,000,000
rounds.

In the same time period production for the USN was 191,359,000
rounds of 40mm and 4,153,639,000 rounds of 20mm. At the other
end there were 123,984 rounds of 16 inch.

Do the rounds fired in training count?

Note apart from live ammunition there were millions of practice and
drill rounds made.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Dave Smith]

Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In the same time period production for the USN was 191,359,000
rounds of 40mm and 4,153,639,000 rounds of 20mm. At the other
end there were 123,984 rounds of 16 inch.
Do the rounds fired in training count?
Note apart from live ammunition there were millions of practice and
drill rounds made.

There were a lot of people who went through basic training and rifle
shooting who never fired a shot in combat. A lot of ammunition was lost.
Some of it was lost on transit when transport ships were sunk. Some of
it was lost in combat and/or abandoned when positions were overrun,
maybe even detonated to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. Then
when the war was over it there was a lot of it leftover.

Some of it may have been sold off in army surplus stores or was sold or
given to other governments for their military. The British and
Commonwealth countries had used a number of .303 small arms. The
Lee-Enfield, the Bren gun and a number of fighter and bomber aircraft
used machine guns in that caliber. Within a decade after the war most
of the Commonwealth countries modernized, switching to semiautomatic
rifles in the NATO standard 7.62mm.

There was still some .303 ammunition in hand. Our unit, having weapons
tech training, had a couple old Bren guns in the armory and we used to
take them to the ranges once in a while. That was in the late 60s. My
father commanded an air cadet squadron in the 70s and 80s and they were
still able to get some of that old .303.

[Don Phillipson]

. . . Within a decade after the war most of the Commonwealth countries
modernized, switching to semiautomatic rifles in the NATO standard 7.62mm.
There was still some .303 ammunition in hand. Our unit, having weapons
tech training, had a couple old Bren guns in the armory and we used to
take them to the ranges once in a while. That was in the late 60s. My
father commanded an air cadet squadron in the 70s and 80s and they were
still able to get some of that old .303.

WW2 Lee-Enfields seem still used by the Canadian "Arctic Patrol,"
a civilian volunteer force formed in the Cold War. Winchester
still sells .303 ammunition. Lee-Enfields were a common hunting
rifle in Canada in the 1960s perhaps because all WW2 servicemen
had basic rifle training with this weapon.

[Dave Smith]

Post by Don Phillipson
WW2 Lee-Enfields seem still used by the Canadian "Arctic Patrol,"
a civilian volunteer force formed in the Cold War. Winchester
still sells .303 ammunition. Lee-Enfields were a common hunting
rifle in Canada in the 1960s perhaps because all WW2 servicemen
had basic rifle training with this weapon.

They are still commonly used. I have seen them for sale in several gun
shops lately and frequently see them at the gun range. I have one.

[Greg Schuler]

Post by Don Phillipson

. . . Within a decade after the war most of the Commonwealth countries
modernized, switching to semiautomatic rifles in the NATO standard 7.62mm.
There was still some .303 ammunition in hand. Our unit, having weapons
tech training, had a couple old Bren guns in the armory and we used to
take them to the ranges once in a while. That was in the late 60s. My
father commanded an air cadet squadron in the 70s and 80s and they were
still able to get some of that old .303.

WW2 Lee-Enfields seem still used by the Canadian "Arctic Patrol,"
a civilian volunteer force formed in the Cold War. Winchester
still sells .303 ammunition. Lee-Enfields were a common hunting
rifle in Canada in the 1960s perhaps because all WW2 servicemen
had basic rifle training with this weapon.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

The Arctic Rangers just selected a new rifle, which is entering
service - a modified Sako T3 CTR. Replacement has started and will
be completed by 2019.

[Rich Rostrom]

At the other end there were 123,984 rounds of 16 inch.

That's _very_ interesting.

The U.S. had a total of 114 16-inch barrels,
not counting any coast artillery, only barrels
mounted on the three COLORADO-class BBs, the
two WASHINGTONs, the four SOUTH DAKOTAs, and
the four IOWAs.

So that would be over 1,000 rounds per barrel,
even allowing for a substantial number left
over at the end of the war.

[Dave Smith]

Post by Rich Rostrom

At the other end there were 123,984 rounds of 16 inch.

That's _very_ interesting.
The U.S. had a total of 114 16-inch barrels,
not counting any coast artillery, only barrels
mounted on the three COLORADO-class BBs, the
two WASHINGTONs, the four SOUTH DAKOTAs, and
the four IOWAs.
So that would be over 1,000 rounds per barrel,
even allowing for a substantial number left
over at the end of the war.

I hate to throw a monkey wrench into things, but you would have to
factor barrel life into the equations. From what I found online, the
barrel life of a 16" gun was 395 rounds when using AP. Wiki says 2860
with target rounds. It has been a long time since I trained in this
stuff but with field artillery the barrel life was measured in full
charges. Those guns had a range just over 23 miles, so when engaging
long range targets they would be using full charges. If bombarding to
support land troops, they would be much closer and using smaller charges.

I did not bother looking up the number of times those barrels were
replaced or relined. The navy would have some tricky planning to get
their crews trained in life fire exercises and have enough life left in
their guns. They would want them to be well enough practiced to be able
to hit a target on the horizon, but not wear out the barrels so much
they would be diminished and incapable of sustaining fire in combat.

[Kenneth Young]

Post by Dave Smith
If bombarding to
support land troops, they would be much closer and using smaller charges.

They would also be firing HE which was considerably lighter than AP and
used smaller charges to get the same ballistics. Barrel life was measured
in effective full charges and IIRC USN practice was to reline a gun when
firing its regulation ammo stowage would push it over limits. A lot of
ships could fit a smaller gun in the main gun bore so fire control could
be practised without affecting gun life.

The only ship I remember firing enough rounds to need barrel changes was
Warspite which was one of the main bombardment ships at Normandy.

I find it hard to believe there are any figures on small arm rounds
expended though there may be records of how many were manufactured. Given
cyclic rates of fire ranging from 300 to 1500 it all depends on practical
rates. The only example I can come up with is from WW1 when 10 Vickers
HMG fired over 1 million rounds in 24 hours. This was a special case
where the idea was to stop all movement in a given area and the barrels
were changed after 10,000 rounds.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Post by Rich Rostrom

At the other end there were 123,984 rounds of 16 inch.

That's _very_ interesting.
The U.S. had a total of 114 16-inch barrels,
not counting any coast artillery, only barrels
mounted on the three COLORADO-class BBs, the
two WASHINGTONs, the four SOUTH DAKOTAs, and
the four IOWAs.
So that would be over 1,000 rounds per barrel,
even allowing for a substantial number left
over at the end of the war.

I hate to throw a monkey wrench into things, but you would have to factor
barrel life into the equations. From what I found online, the barrel life
of a 16" gun was 395 rounds when using AP. Wiki says 2860 with target
rounds. It has been a long time since I trained in this stuff but with
field artillery the barrel life was measured in full charges. Those guns
had a range just over 23 miles, so when engaging long range targets they
would be using full charges. If bombarding to support land troops, they
would be much closer and using smaller charges.

Yes, it is clear most USN 16 inch gun ammunition was not fired during
WWII and probably thereafter. With maybe 200 or so guns built.

If you can look up Naval Weapons of WWII by John Campbell, all
the technical details in one place. The USN chrome plated its
barrels producing a useful increase in life.

There were 4 versions of the USN 16 inch gun around in WWII.

The 45 calibre fitted to the three Maryland class. Life 395 full
charge (EFC) rounds, 36,000 yards with 2,240 pound APC
shell at 30 degrees 40 minutes elevation, using 556 pounds of
propellant, so 24 guns plus prototypes and spares. Weight 105
tons including breech mechanism.

The 50 calibre meant for the next generation of ships cancelled
by the Washington treaty, 71 built, 44 being built when the order
was cancelled in February 1922. Some used for shore batteries.
Life maybe 200 full charge rounds, 45,100 yards with 2,240
pound APC shell at 46 degrees elevation using 556 pounds of
propellant as coast defence, weight 128.15 tons including breech
mechanism.

With the ability to use 832 pounds of propellant maximum range is
put at 49,140 yards at 48 degrees elevation, lifetime maybe 150
rounds, weight 152.05 tons including breech mechanism.

The 45 calibre gun for the 35,000 ton battleships. Life 395 full
charge rounds, 36,900 yards with 2,700 pound APC shell at 45
degrees elevation, using 540 pounds of propellant, so 54 guns
plus prototypes and spares. Weight 85.85 tons including solid
breech without mechanism. Maximum range with 1,900 pound
HC round 40,180 yards at 45 degrees elevation.

The 50 calibre run for the Iowa (and Montana) class. Life 290 full
charge rounds, 42,345 yards with 2,700 pound APC shell at 45
degrees elevation, using 655 pounds of propellant, so over 36
guns made. Weight 106.8 tons without breech mechanism.
Maximum range with 1,900 pound HC round 41,604 yards at 45
degrees elevation.

According to the War Production Board 17 triple 16 inch 50 calibre
gun and mount assemblies were delivered to ships side, which I
take to mean 51 guns, between November 1942 and July 1945.
There were 21 such 16 inch 45 calibre assemblies, which would
mean 63 guns between October 1940 to December 1944. Note
while it is possible other 45 calibre guns were built before the War
Production Board start date of July 1940, North Carolina was
launched on 13 June and Washington on 1 June 1940 and guns
were fitted after launch. Given crane precision limits the mounts
were lowered near to the ship then the incoming tide used to raise
the ship for the final mating.

Ammunition production was 33,014 2,700 pound AP from 1940 to
May 1945, 4,909 2,240 pound AP from July 1942 to April 1945
and 86,061 1,900 pound HC from January 1943 to August 1945.
Shore bombardment anyone? A further 16,528 1,900 pound,
4,935 2,240 pound and 6,565 2,700 pound rounds were reworked
from December 1944 to August 1945.

I did not bother looking up the number of times those barrels were
replaced or relined. The navy would have some tricky planning to get
their crews trained in life fire exercises and have enough life left in
their guns. They would want them to be well enough practiced to be able
to hit a target on the horizon, but not wear out the barrels so much they
would be diminished and incapable of sustaining fire in combat.

Yes, essentially pre radar a thorough set of training exercises could
force the need for relining, with radar ranges could be more accurately
found.

The book mentioned as an interesting table for the 16 inch guns on
board HMS Rodney during the Bismarck action. The gun itself had
a lifetime of 250 full charge rounds, numbers 1, 12, 14, 16, 21, 23,
25, 26 and 28 were on board. As of 4 May 1941 the 9 guns had a
use of between 17 and 4/16 (as in 4 sixteenths) and 129 and 8/16
EFC rounds and wear of between 2.2 and 10.8 mm. Rounds per
gun fired 4 to 30 May ranged from 22 to 52, raising use to between
57 and 10/16 and 168 and 2/16 EFC, wear to between 6.4 and
11.3 mm. The fraction ratings shows the use of part charges for
things like training, all the shells fired during the above period were
full charge.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[John Dallman]

Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
wear of between 2.2 and 10.8 mm.

Just in case anyone was worrying, that wear figure isn't an increase in
the bore diameter of the gun. It's the amount the start of the rifling
has been eroded, measured along the barrel, from the chamber towards the
muzzle.

John

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Post by Mario
Is there any number?

USAAF 1945 Statistical Digest, table 149, rounds of
ammunition expended overseas January 1942 to
August 1945. Total 459,750,000. The figures are
given in units of thousands of rounds.

Tables 150 to 157 then give a more detailed
breakdown by theatre. Those totals come to

7,285,000 rounds of 0.30 inch machine gun
448,732,000 rounds of 0.50 inch machine gun
3,515,000 rounds of 20 mm cannon
123,000 rounds of 37 mm cannon
31,000 rounds of 75 mm cannon
63,239 rockets

Total 457,749,236 rounds including rockets.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Rich Rostrom]

USAAF 1945 Statistical Digest... totals come to
7,285,000 rounds of 0.30 inch machine gun
448,732,000 rounds of 0.50 inch machine gun
Total 457,749,236 rounds including rockets.

IOW, 98% .50 caliber. Which is to be expected, as the
USAAF standardized on the .50 cal as its aircraft MG.
But to see that high a proportion is a bit surprising.

63,239 rockets

That's lower than I would have expected, considering
the number of fighter-bombers assigned to ground
attack in Europe and the popularity of rockets for
that work.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Post by Rich Rostrom

USAAF 1945 Statistical Digest... totals come to
63,239 rockets

That's lower than I would have expected, considering
the number of fighter-bombers assigned to ground
attack in Europe and the popularity of rockets for
that work.

The USAAF in the European theatre did not start to use
rockets until after D-Day, hence why at Mortain the RAF
rocket firing Typhoons were used against the German
armoured forces while the USAAF attacked the rear
areas and ensured the Luftwaffe would not interfere.

Rockets fired, ETO, 1944 2,436 in 1945 14,634
MTO 1944 8,815, in 1945 28,032
Pacific Ocean Areas, 1944 1,648, in 1945 2,485
Far East Air Forces in 1945 1,060.
China India Burma, 1943 69, in 1944 1,993, in 1945 2,068

Alaskan units and 20th Air Force did not use rockets.

The 9th Air Force reports from October 1943 to May 1945
its P-47s fired 13,783 rockets and jettisoned another 344,
its P-61 units fired 373 rockets and jettisoned 2. Only
some of the fighter groups were equipped with rockets.

Also apart from firing over 64,000,000 rounds of 0.50 inch
another 5.3 million rounds was lost by 9th AF units.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The USAAF in the European theatre did not start to use
rockets until after D-Day, hence why at Mortain the RAF
rocket firing Typhoons were used against the German
armoured forces...

I had wondered about that; the rockets at
Mortain are famous... BTW that was almost
two months after D-Day, so the delay in
USAAF usage was even longer than that.

If in the course of these splendid excavations,
figures for rocket usage by the RAF turn up, they
might be substantially higher.