Discussion:
Versailles and WW2
(too old to reply)
k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2013-04-06 14:29:40 UTC
Permalink
The actual treaty was not that bad compared with the treaties that
ended the Franco-Prussian war Brest-Livoc and others. Wilson's 14 points
complicated things and resulted in the break of the AH Empire but did
not impact on Germany except as raised expectations of better terms.

The main problem and the IMHO reason WW2 started was that the
Versailles terms were only enforceable if either Germany cooperated or
Britain and France were prepared to take military action. Another
problem was that German propaganda about unfair terms was starting to be
effective on the international political scene by the 1930s.

Even so while German rearmament was probably inevitable, the Weimar
government had started trying to get round the military clauses in the
early 20s, war was not. The rise of someone like Hitler was not a given.
I think that we can not blame WW2 on Versailles.

By the way historically european wars had been happening at roughly
thirty year intervals. The longest gap I can remember prior to WW2 was
between the end of the Napoleonic Wars and the Prusso-Danish war.

Ken Young
news
2013-04-06 16:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The actual treaty was not that bad compared with the treaties that
ended the Franco-Prussian war Brest-Livoc and others. Wilson's 14 points
complicated things and resulted in the break of the AH Empire but did
not impact on Germany except as raised expectations of better terms.
A lot of people have bought into the idea that the Versailles Treaty
was unduly harsh, but I have to agree that the treaty forced on France
to end the Franco-Prussian war was quite severe, as was the Brest Livosk
Treaty that Germany forced on Russia.
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The main problem and the IMHO reason WW2 started was that the
Versailles terms were only enforceable if either Germany cooperated or
Britain and France were prepared to take military action. Another
problem was that German propaganda about unfair terms was starting to be
effective on the international political scene by the 1930s.
I think that it can be reasonably argued that Wilson has a
disproportionately high influence on the treaty. The US had been willing
to sit out the war and let the European powers duke out until it was
finally dragged into the conflict after it had been going on three
years. It took a while to recruit, train, equip and transport troops to
Europe. While their battlefield performance was not terrific, they did
provide a great boost to morale and tipped the balance against the Germans.

Having had a great deal of input into the treaty, the US never ratified
it. When the Germans started to violate the terms of the treaty,
Britain and France were not in a position to do much about it. Both were
in financial trouble due to the cost of the war and the Great
Depression. They had lost a generation of men in the trenches of France
and Belgium. There was no will to start another major war, and with the
Americans isolationism, they knew they could count on help from the US.
They could not expect the US to help them to enforce the terms of a
treaty that they US had refused to ratify.
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Even so while German rearmament was probably inevitable, the Weimar
government had started trying to get round the military clauses in the
early 20s, war was not. The rise of someone like Hitler was not a given.
I think that we can not blame WW2 on Versailles.
It is quite possible that had it not been for those terms, it would have
been something else. We were dealing with a very arrogant nation.
Consider the events that led to WWI. Austria wanted to grab territory in
the former Ottoman Empire but was afraid of Russian intervention. They
got Germany to agree to look after Russia, and because Russia and France
had a mutual defence treaty, they ordered France not to honour it. When
France refused, Germany tried a bold move. They figured they could
invade France through neutral Belgium, defeat the French in a few weeks.
They thought they would have enough time to do that before Russia was
able to mobilize, and after France fell they could send their armies east.

We saw the same arrogance in WWII. The took a little here, a little
there, a little more. When they realized they were getting way with it,
they went for Poland, making a mutual non-aggression agreement with the
Soviets to allow them to take Poland. After pushing Allied forces out
of France they thought the Allies would sit back while they broke the
von Ribbentrop Molotov agreement and invaded Russia.

One thing that has to be taken into account is the German habit of
signing truces and treaties and honouring them only at their
convenience. The had the Brest-Livosk Treaty with the Russians and then
repudiated it, forcing Russia to cede even more territory. They signed
Versailles but then annexed Austria. They took the Sudetenland and then
the rest of Czechoslovakia. They signed the Munich Agreement and then
invaded Poland. They had the von Ribbentrop -Molotov non aggression
treaty and, when it suited them, broke that and invaded Russia.
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
By the way historically european wars had been happening at roughly
thirty year intervals. The longest gap I can remember prior to WW2 was
between the end of the Napoleonic Wars and the Prusso-Danish war.
One of the great tragedies of WWI was the attacks made on the morning of
Nov. 11, 1919. Everyone knew that a truce had been signed and would
take effect at 11 am on the 11th. The lines had been set in the treaty.
There was nothing to be gained from advancing a few hundreds or a few
miles. The Allied commanders had figured that German had to be defeated
decisively, that they should have been chased all the way back to
Germany and be forced to surrender on home turf. Otherwise Germany
nationalism would re-emerge and they would have to fight them again.
dumbstruck
2013-04-07 05:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
One of the great tragedies of WWI was the attacks made on the morning of
Nov. 11, 1919. Everyone knew that a truce had been signed and would
take effect at 11 am on the 11th. The lines had been set in the treaty.
There was nothing to be gained from advancing a few hundreds or a few
miles. The Allied commanders had figured that German had to be defeated
decisively, that they should have been chased all the way back to
Huh? Maybe the allies should have avoided attrition on their side, but
at least should unloose a mighty last artillery barrage. Who knows where
the line would be drawn in terms of German delusion they didn't lose the
military war. Every last axis soldier should be prevented from swaggering
back home, which unlike France was typically unmarked by war.

Anyway, back to Versailles... that treaty itself didn't seem to loom
large in Hitlers informal talk, going by the 923 pages of The Devils
Disciples. The treaty was expected to be eventually defied and was
gentler than the WW1 treaty Germany imposed on Russia. The constant
eternal obsession of Hitler was the "November ninth criminals".

That refers to mutiny of the German navy, after being ordered to make
a final dangerous mass attack. It was the international-socialist
flavor it took on, when German workers supported the navy rebels in
pushing for sort of a conditional surrender. That defines the difference
to Hitlers idea of NATIONAL socialism where you sacrifice for the
nations welfare rather than the welfare of your economic class. The
movement led to the acceptance of Versailles and even a sort of leftist
coup in Munich. It was seen to include prominent jewish protagonists.
news
2013-04-07 17:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by dumbstruck
Post by news
One of the great tragedies of WWI was the attacks made on the morning of
Nov. 11, 1919. Everyone knew that a truce had been signed and would
take effect at 11 am on the 11th. The lines had been set in the treaty.
There was nothing to be gained from advancing a few hundreds or a few
miles. The Allied commanders had figured that German had to be defeated
decisively, that they should have been chased all the way back to
Huh? Maybe the allies should have avoided attrition on their side, but
at least should unloose a mighty last artillery barrage. Who knows where
the line would be drawn in terms of German delusion they didn't lose the
military war. Every last axis soldier should be prevented from swaggering
back home, which unlike France was typically unmarked by war.
The point was that the truce had already been signed. Germany was going
to have to withdraw its troops, hand over their submarines, have their
fleet interned, and void their treaty with Russia. Nothing was to be
gained by attacking when the truce had been signed and they were merely
waiting for 6 hours for the word to get to everyone on the front.
Post by dumbstruck
Anyway, back to Versailles... that treaty itself didn't seem to loom
large in Hitlers informal talk, going by the 923 pages of The Devils
Disciples. The treaty was expected to be eventually defied and was
gentler than the WW1 treaty Germany imposed on Russia. The constant
eternal obsession of Hitler was the "November ninth criminals".
Germany did not have a very good record at abiding by treaties. They
seemed to sign them only when it was convenient for them. This seems to
have become an even bigger problem under Hitler and the Nazis. They
violated Versailles bit by bit, re-miltarizing the Rhineland, annexing
Austria, taking the Sudatenland, then the rest of Czechoslovakia. Then
they signed a mutual non- aggression pact with the Soviet Union in a
move that they thought would allow them to violate both Versailles and
the Munich Agreement.
Post by dumbstruck
That refers to mutiny of the German navy, after being ordered to make
a final dangerous mass attack. It was the international-socialist
flavor it took on, when German workers supported the navy rebels in
pushing for sort of a conditional surrender. That defines the difference
to Hitlers idea of NATIONAL socialism where you sacrifice for the
nations welfare rather than the welfare of your economic class. The
movement led to the acceptance of Versailles and even a sort of leftist
coup in Munich. It was seen to include prominent jewish protagonists.
Indeed. German had risen as a militarist culture and the military felt
that they had not failed Germany, but the people had, and mainly the
communists and the Jews. It didn't help the Jews that there had been so
many Jews involved with the Bolsheviks.

Once again we see the German arrogance. It was not their fault that they
lost the war. They had been screwed by the Allies. They had been
screwed by the communists and the Jews at home. It was everyone's fault
but theirs.
k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2013-04-08 13:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
This seems to
have become an even bigger problem under Hitler and the Nazis. They
violated Versailles bit by bit,
Actually the previous governments had been working round the
restrictions of the treaty. Arming police with SMG, setting up the Kazan
tank school among other things. Initially Hitler was just a bit more
obvious.

Ken Young
The Horny Goat
2013-04-09 00:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by news
This seems to
have become an even bigger problem under Hitler and the Nazis. They
violated Versailles bit by bit,
Actually the previous governments had been working round the
restrictions of the treaty. Arming police with SMG, setting up the Kazan
tank school among other things. Initially Hitler was just a bit more
obvious.
No question this sort of thing started well before Hitler. came to
power. Equally no question a lot of that sort of thing had been going
on since the heyday of the Freikorps (1920-22) though the Nazis went
quite a bit further than under Weimar.
The Horny Goat
2013-04-06 22:54:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The actual treaty was not that bad compared with the treaties that
ended the Franco-Prussian war Brest-Livoc and others. Wilson's 14 points
complicated things and resulted in the break of the AH Empire but did
not impact on Germany except as raised expectations of better terms.
Well my whole point in the previous discussion was that Versailles
1919 (not to be confused with Versailles 1871) was only particularly
harsh because it was done TO GERMANY and that Prussia / Germany had
imposed treaties equally harsh or harsher when they were victorious.
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The main problem and the IMHO reason WW2 started was that the
Versailles terms were only enforceable if either Germany cooperated or
Britain and France were prepared to take military action. Another
problem was that German propaganda about unfair terms was starting to be
effective on the international political scene by the 1930s.
Well two things here:
(1) the 14 Points encouraged Germans to expect a "soft" peace - which
no way were Britain and France on board for and
(2) the myth of the notion that Germany had not been defeated started
REAL early after the Armistice. The earliest statement of this as far
as I know was by Ebert (who was firmly of the socialist persuasion)
who told the troops they had not been defeated when reviewing them in
Berlin in December 1918. Anybody know any earlier statement of this
idea?

My point is that if a Left Socialist like Ebert was saying things like
this immediately postwar what were the those of the DVP/DNVP sort say
not to mention the proto-Nazis?
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Even so while German rearmament was probably inevitable, the Weimar
government had started trying to get round the military clauses in the
early 20s, war was not. The rise of someone like Hitler was not a given.
I think that we can not blame WW2 on Versailles.
I think some kind of authoritarian regime was highly likely but no way
was something like the Nazis inevitable.
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
By the way historically european wars had been happening at roughly
thirty year intervals. The longest gap I can remember prior to WW2 was
between the end of the Napoleonic Wars and the Prusso-Danish war.
Don Phillipson
2013-04-07 01:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The actual treaty was not that bad compared with the treaties that
ended the Franco-Prussian war Brest-Livoc and others. Wilson's 14 points
complicated things and resulted in the break of the AH Empire but did
not impact on Germany except as raised expectations of better terms.
The main problem and the IMHO reason WW2 started was that the
Versailles terms were only enforceable if either Germany cooperated or
Britain and France were prepared to take military action. Another
problem was that German propaganda about unfair terms was starting to be
effective on the international political scene by the 1930s.
Even so while German rearmament was probably inevitable, the Weimar
government had started trying to get round the military clauses in the
early 20s, war was not. The rise of someone like Hitler was not a given.
I think that we can not blame WW2 on Versailles.
The postwar diaries of Harrry Kessler (middle-aged aristocrat, thus
reserve army officer and diplomat) are illuminating:

1. He emphasized all Germans resented and rejected the "war
guilt" the Treaty of Versailles required the nation to accept. This
resentment became violent as soon as "war guilt" appeared in
the draft treaty. (Cf. also Ebert on the German army's being
"never defeated in the field.") Kessler's ambivalence on this
point is particularly shocking because he was in Belgium in
person about 15 Aug. 1914 and approved in his diary (also
published for 1880-1918) the massacre of civilians causing"disorder."

2, Ref. "Versailles terms were only enforceable if either Germany
cooperated or Britain and France were prepared to take military action."
The salient fact of the 1920s (when Germany was readmitted to
international diplomatic negotiations) was that French troops
occupied the Saar and the Rhineland (west bank) for about a
decade. The British did not, viz. withdrew their occupation forces
almost as soon as it reached Berlin. German negotiators (inc.
Kessler) constantly sought alliances with British, Polish or German
diplomats in order to restrain the French and end the occupation
of German soil. This finally happened, as envisaged in the Versailles
and Locarno Treaties. (Hitler denounced both in his first year in power.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Bill
2013-04-07 17:08:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:19:50 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
Post by Don Phillipson
The postwar diaries of Harrry Kessler (middle-aged aristocrat, thus
1. He emphasized all Germans resented and rejected the "war
guilt" the Treaty of Versailles required the nation to accept.
Well, everyone he met anyway...
Don Phillipson
2013-04-07 20:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by Don Phillipson
The postwar diaries of Harrry Kessler (middle-aged aristocrat, thus
1. He emphasized all Germans resented and rejected the "war
guilt" the Treaty of Versailles required the nation to accept.
Well, everyone he met anyway...
The historical value of the Kessler diaries reflects the range of
people he knew personally from kings (his mother was believed
to have had a fling with the German emperor) to proletarians,
notably sculptor Maillol, painter George Grosz, etc. His German friends
included members of every possible faction, from Spartakists
to early Nazis. (He lived in exile from 1933 and died in 1937.)

The point of the earlier Ebert citation (about the undefeated German
army) was that it was uttered by a middle-left socialist (SPD), premier
and then president of the Weimar Republic 1919--25, who in 1919 wanted
a reformed monarchy rather than a republic, and later collaborated with
the Freikorps paramilitaries (to suppress Spartakists.) Germany in
the 1920s was a lot more complicated than outsiders wanted to know.
Very few political propositions won general support. One of those few
was that "all Germans resented and rejected the "war guilt" the Treaty
of Versailles required the nation to accept."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
AlexMilman
2013-04-12 20:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The actual treaty was not that bad compared with the treaties that
ended the Franco-Prussian war Brest-Livoc and others. Wilson's 14 points
complicated things and resulted in the break of the AH Empire but did
not impact on Germany except as raised expectations of better terms.
The main problem and the IMHO reason WW2 started was that the
Versailles terms were only enforceable if either Germany cooperated or
Britain and France were prepared to take military action. Another
problem was that German propaganda about unfair terms was starting to be
effective on the international political scene by the 1930s.
Even so while German rearmament was probably inevitable, the Weimar
government had started trying to get round the military clauses in the
early 20s, war was not. The rise of someone like Hitler was not a given.
I think that we can not blame WW2 on Versailles.
By the way historically european wars had been happening at roughly
thirty year intervals. The longest gap I can remember prior to WW2 was
between the end of the Napoleonic Wars and the Prusso-Danish war.
Only if you discount Russian-Ottoman Wars which happened on European
soil and the Crimean War, which was most definitely European. Also
wars in Italy (with France and/or Austria participating). Not sure
that 30 years interval would work for XVII or XVIII century either.
Rich Rostrom
2013-04-12 20:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by AlexMilman
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
By the way historically european wars had been happening at roughly
thirty year intervals. The longest gap I can remember prior to WW2 was
between the end of the Napoleonic Wars and the Prusso-Danish war.
Only if you discount Russian-Ottoman Wars which happened on European
soil and the Crimean War, which was most definitely European. Also
wars in Italy (with France and/or Austria participating).
Russo-Turkish War in 1828.
Austro-Sardinian War in 1848.
Crimean War in 1854.
Austro-Franco-Sardinian War in 1859.
Post by AlexMilman
Not sure that 30 years interval would work for XVII
or XVIII century either.
Definitely not.

XVIII century:

1700-1721: Great Northern War
1701-1714: War of the Spanish Succession
1716-1718: Austro-Turkish War
1718-1720: War of the Quadruple Alliance
1733-1738: War of the Polish Succession
1735-1739: Austro-RussianTurkish War
1741-1748: War of the Austrian Succession
1756-1763: Seven Years War
1778-1779: War of the Bavarian Succession
1787-1791: Austro-Turkish War
1792-1800: French Revolutionary Wars

This excludes the American Revolutionary War (1775-1783),
which included France and Spain from 1779 IIRC. But there
was no fighting in Europe AFAIK. Also, the War of Jenkins'
Ear from 1739-1741 for the same reason.

The longest gap is 1721-1733, 12 years.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
AlexMilman
2013-04-13 04:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by AlexMilman
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
By the way historically european wars had been happening at roughly
thirty year intervals. The longest gap I can remember prior to WW2 was
between the end of the Napoleonic Wars and the Prusso-Danish war.
Only if you discount Russian-Ottoman Wars which happened on European
soil and the Crimean War, which was most definitely European. Also
wars in Italy (with France and/or Austria participating).
Russo-Turkish War in 1828.
Austro-Sardinian War in 1848.
Crimean War in 1854.
Austro-Franco-Sardinian War in 1859.
Post by AlexMilman
Not sure that 30 years interval would work for XVII
or XVIII century either.
Definitely not.
1700-1721: Great Northern War
With Russo-Turkish War of 1710-11 which can be counted as a separate
event
Post by Rich Rostrom
1701-1714: War of the Spanish Succession
Rakoczi War of Independence (1703-11) falls into the same time slot

1714-18 Ottoman-Venetian War
Post by Rich Rostrom
1716-1718: Austro-Turkish War
1718-1720: War of the Quadruple Alliance
1733-1738: War of the Polish Succession
1735-1739: Austro-RussianTurkish War
1741-1748: War of the Austrian Succession
Russo-Swedish War 1741-43
Post by Rich Rostrom
1756-1763: Seven Years War
1768-74 Russo-Turkish War

1768-1772 War of the Bar Confederacy
Post by Rich Rostrom
1778-1779: War of the Bavarian Succession
Russo-Swedish War 1788-90

1784 the Kettle War (Netherlands vs. HRE) - the Austrians occupied a
custom post and a vegetable garden on the Dutch soil but the Dutch
killed much more or their own people when they broke the dykes. :-)
Post by Rich Rostrom
1787-1791: Austro-Turkish War
Actually, Russo-Austrian-Turkish War (Russo-Turkish part ended in
1792)

Polish-Russian War of 1792
Post by Rich Rostrom
1792-1800: French Revolutionary Wars
This excludes the American Revolutionary War (1775-1783),
which included France and Spain from 1779 IIRC. But there
was no fighting in Europe AFAIK. Also, the War of Jenkins'
Ear from 1739-1741 for the same reason.
Spanish-Portugese Wars 1735-37 and 1776 - 77 excluded by the same
reason
Strictly speaking, Kosciuszko Upraising of 1794 was a full-scale war.
Post by Rich Rostrom
The longest gap is 1721-1733, 12 years.
Except that there was Anglo-Spanish War of 1727 - 29 in between (not a
major affair but...) so it was much less....

And XVII looks even worse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#17th_century
even if you exclude rebellions

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