revisit - continue punishing War Crimes?

[a425couple]

Not awfully long ago some here were discussing the
properness, or effectiveness, about for how long should
countries continue to prosecute individuals for WWII
War Crimes.
Not much really new in this story,
but seems to me some additional issues.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-s--limbo-for-nazi-suspects-ordered-out-115224229.html

"Nazi suspects ordered out of U.S. never left
MINNEAPOLIS - At least 10 suspected Nazi war criminals ordered
deported by the United States never left the country, according to an
Associated Press review of Justice Department data - and four are
living in the U.S. today. All remained eligible for public benefits such as
Social Security until they exhausted appeals, and in one case even beyond.

Quiet American legal limbo was the fate of all 10 men uncovered in the
AP review. The reason: While the U.S. wanted them out,
no other country was willing to take them in."

[Michael Emrys]

"While the U.S. wanted them out, no other country was willing to take
them in."

Heh. Should have put them all on a raft and towed it out past the ten
mile limit.

Michael

[news]

Post by a425couple
Not awfully long ago some here were discussing the
properness, or effectiveness, about for how long should
countries continue to prosecute individuals for WWII

Perhaps it depends on the usefulness of some of those war criminals to
the western allies. A number of people who would fit the definition of
war criminals were recruited by western governments for their
intelligence about the Soviets and other communist organizations. Many
were brought over to work on rocket projects.

[WJHopwood]

..... A number of people who would fit the definition of
war criminals were recruited by western governments for their
intelligence about the Soviets and other communist organizations.
Many were brought over to work on rocket projects.

Defining who was a war criminal and who was not was simple in
many cases but complex in others. War Crimes as such covered a
wide variety of activities by individuals who committed atrocities
to those who made decisions which created policies resulting in
genocide and other crimes against humanity as generally defined
by the 2d Hague Convention of 1907 and generally accepted since
then by civilized nations throughout the world. Just being a member
of the Nazi party was not in and of itself a war crime, but many
Nazis were war criminals.
As far as I know, after the war the U.S. did not bring over any
German rocket scientists who were by definition war criminals.
IIRC Von Braun and the few who came with him may have been
members of the Nazi party, as were many Germans who joined
before the war as a matter of personal expediency. but did not
participate during the war in either Nazi war crimes or the
decision-making which caused them.
As for the Japanese, there may have been other cases
of amnesty for war crimes, but to the best of my knowledge the
only Japanese war criminal granted amnesty by the U.S. was Dr,
Hiro Ishii who led Japanese Unit 731, the infamous medical
experiment group operated by the Japanese in Mukden Manchuria.
There POWs including some Americans were injected with a variety
of diseases and subjected to experimental surgeries without
anesthetics, and worse. Ishii was let off the hook by Gen, MacArthur
in exchange for his turning over Unit 731 records on germ warfare
and other experiments on human "guinea pigs" to U.S. authorities.

WJH

[Stephen Graham]

Post by WJHopwood
As far as I know, after the war the U.S. did not bring over any
German rocket scientists who were by definition war criminals.
IIRC Von Braun and the few who came with him may have been
members of the Nazi party, as were many Germans who joined
before the war as a matter of personal expediency. but did not
participate during the war in either Nazi war crimes or the
decision-making which caused them.

Von Braun could have been charged with two counts by the post-war trials:

1. membership in a criminal organization, the SS; and
2. crimes against humanity, for involvement with slave labor.

On the latter, he was involved in selection, making him directly complicit.

You'd have to run through the remainder of the individuals brought into
the US for various purposes to see who was chargeable.

[WJHopwood]

Post by Stephen Graham
1. membership in a criminal organization, the SS; and
2. crimes against humanity, for involvement with slave labor.
On the latter, he was involved in selection, making him directly complicit.

You are technically correct. Perhaps he could have been charged but
wasn't. There were numerous secondary war crime trials of minor
characters on war crimes charges after the major trials at Nuremberg
had been completed, but Von Braun was not one of them. In
determining who was to be charged and who was not, the subsequent
tribunals took into consideration the degree of responsibility for and
participation in war crime activity before charges were made. There
must have been many close calls.

At a point when the Pennemunde group was under the direction of
Heinrich Himmler's SS, Himmler personally "invited" Von Braun to join
the SS so the SS could take credit for Pennemunde achievements.
Von Braun, who was then working for the German Army, was advised
by his Army superior that as a practical matter he had best accept
Himmler's invitation or face unpleasant consequences. As it was, he
was later arrested by the SS anyway on "suspicion of communist
sympathies." He was released after two weeks in prison after
higher-ups in Berlin interceded.

The slave labor connection was another matter. Von Braun obviously
knew about it, is alleged to have despised it, but had no part in the
decision to employ it, Nor does it appear that he engaged in its direct
management or in the treatment of the workers.

As for the charge that he personally selected slave labor participants,
the only such case I could turn up was his selection of two prisoners who
were already in a concentration camp (why these particular two is
unknown but possibly because of some needed expertise). But at least for
those chosen, it was probably better to go to Pennemunde than to have
remained where they were.
Von Braun seemed to have one main interest--rocket science and
future space exploration. He seemed ready to accept and make the best
of his situation, whether working for the Germans or the Americans, to
satisfy that ambition--to go along to get along--wherever he might
be. In the process he was quite useful to the U.S. during the decades
of the cold war and the space program. As for his past history, he
was never charged with war crimes, and, although close to it, the U.S.
was willing to let bygones be bygones as part of the deal.

WJH

[The Horny Goat]

Post by WJHopwood
As far as I know, after the war the U.S. did not bring over any
German rocket scientists who were by definition war criminals.
IIRC Von Braun and the few who came with him may have been
members of the Nazi party, as were many Germans who joined
before the war as a matter of personal expediency. but did not
participate during the war in either Nazi war crimes or the
decision-making which caused them.

Ahem - much of the V2 rocket production was done by slave labour which
is very definitely considered a war crime and the preponderence of
evidence is that von Braun and the leading German rocketeers knew full
well their V-2s were being built by slave labour.

Doenitz, Kaltenbrunner and Frank (among others) were convicted on the
slave labour count - Kaltenbrunner and Frank were hung while Doenitz
got life imprisonment (later commuted). Senior members of IG Farben
and Krupp were also imprisoned under the slave labour count.

And make no mistake about it - the top German rocket scientists were
the ones giving the orders at the V-2 factories - it was suggested at
Nuremburg that Doenitz should be acquitted on the slave labour count
as while he gave the order, he had no way of verifying whether the
order was in fact carried out. Nevertheless he was convicted.

To my mind at least von Braun was at least as guilty as Doenitz and
the Krupp / Farben defendants - but Washington decided he was needed
and prosecution waived.

Post by WJHopwood
As for the Japanese, there may have been other cases
of amnesty for war crimes, but to the best of my knowledge the
only Japanese war criminal granted amnesty by the U.S. was Dr,
Hiro Ishii who led Japanese Unit 731, the infamous medical
experiment group operated by the Japanese in Mukden Manchuria.
There POWs including some Americans were injected with a variety
of diseases and subjected to experimental surgeries without
anesthetics, and worse. Ishii was let off the hook by Gen, MacArthur
in exchange for his turning over Unit 731 records on germ warfare
and other experiments on human "guinea pigs" to U.S. authorities.

Which is surprising given that some of the Unit 731 victims were
prisoners of war including American citizens. Nevertheless it was as
you say.

[WJHopwood]

Post by The Horny Goat

........... Japanese Unit 731, the infamous medical
experiment group operated by the Japanese in Mukden Manchuria.
There POWs including some Americans were injected with a variety
of diseases and subjected to experimental surgeries without
anesthetics, and worse. Ishii was let off the hook by Gen, MacArthur
in exchange for his turning over Unit 731 records on germ warfare
and other experiments on human "guinea pigs" to U.S. authorities.

Which is surprising given that some of the Unit 731 victims were
prisoners of war including American citizens. Nevertheless it was as
you say.

As I see it, MacArthur made the deal with Ishii because as the war with
Japan was closing and the Soviet Union joined the war against Japan, the
Soviets had invaded a portion of Manchuria, where Unit 731 had been
in operation, and China was well on the way to Communist rule and
a close relations with the Soviets. It was feared that experiments on germ
warfare and/or other medical experiments might fall into Soviet and/or
Chinese hands. Accordingly, for MacArthur, it was a matter of weighing
the importance of keeping pace with the Soviet/Chinese alliance in the
area of biological warfare, or prosecuting Ishii and his associates for war
crimes. The former was considered of primary importance, even despite
the atrocities endured by the American and other Allied Pows at the hands
of the Japanese at Unit 731.

PS. After WWII and In 1950 I was recalled to active duty in the Navy Dept.
crypto center in Washington where we maintained constant communication
with U.S. forces in Korea. I can recall seeing concern expressed that there
might be a possibility of the introduction of germ warfare at that time but
thankfully it didn't happen.

WJH

[news]

Post by WJHopwood

Post by The Horny Goat

........... Japanese Unit 731, the infamous medical
experiment group operated by the Japanese in Mukden Manchuria.
There POWs including some Americans were injected with a variety
of diseases and subjected to experimental surgeries without
anesthetics, and worse. Ishii was let off the hook by Gen, MacArthur
in exchange for his turning over Unit 731 records on germ warfare
and other experiments on human "guinea pigs" to U.S. authorities.

Which is surprising given that some of the Unit 731 victims were
prisoners of war including American citizens. Nevertheless it was as
you say.

As I see it, MacArthur made the deal with Ishii because as the war with
Japan was closing and the Soviet Union joined the war against Japan, the
Soviets had invaded a portion of Manchuria, where Unit 731 had been
in operation, and China was well on the way to Communist rule and
a close relations with the Soviets. It was feared that experiments on germ
warfare and/or other medical experiments might fall into Soviet and/or
Chinese hands. Accordingly, for MacArthur, it was a matter of weighing
the importance of keeping pace with the Soviet/Chinese alliance in the
area of biological warfare, or prosecuting Ishii and his associates for war
crimes. The former was considered of primary importance, even despite
the atrocities endured by the American and other Allied Pows at the hands
of the Japanese at Unit 731.
PS. After WWII and In 1950 I was recalled to active duty in the Navy Dept.
crypto center in Washington where we maintained constant communication
with U.S. forces in Korea. I can recall seeing concern expressed that there
might be a possibility of the introduction of germ warfare at that time but
thankfully it didn't happen.
WJH

while I realize he might have had special info, I have trouble
envisioning a situation where the info could not be had from recovered
papers/lab materials and/or other participants not to mention enhanced
interrogation and then try him

[Phil McGregor]

On Wed, 07 Aug 2013 18:52:48 -0400, "news"

... not to mention enhanced interrogation and then try him

The US was more interested in keeping to the actual spirit and,
indeed, the letter, of the Geneva and Hague Conventions in 1945, so
that is ... unlikely.

Phil

[news]

Post by Phil McGregor
On Wed, 07 Aug 2013 18:52:48 -0400, "news"

... not to mention enhanced interrogation and then try him

The US was more interested in keeping to the actual spirit and,
indeed, the letter, of the Geneva and Hague Conventions in 1945, so
that is ... unlikely.
Phil

I've seen anecdotal evidence that when Japanese were captured, they had
not been trained or educated to just give the equivalent of name, rank
and serial number and often cooperated quite willingly. If that is true,
does anyone have an idea of the state of mind Ishii was in after being
captured?

[WJHopwood]

......does anyone have an idea of the state of mind Ishii was in
after being captured?

According to the VFW 1995 magazine article I previously
cited, Ishii was calm and collected. His first impulse was
to look out for himself. After Japan surrendered and a U.S.
survey team was enroute to Unit 731, Ishii designated his
next in command, Dr,Ryoichi Naito, to meet the U.S.
representatives. He, Ishii, then went into hiding and made
plans to leave for Japan.

Lt Col. Murray Sanders, a biological warfare specialist
with the U.S. Scientific Intelligence Survey team was the
first U.S. representative to meet with Dr, Naito. That
meeting went well and Dr.Naito then put Col. Sanders
in touch with Ishii who offered to turn over the Unit 731
data in exchange for amnesty for himself and his close
staff. Those terms were then presented to MacArthur
who approved the deal.

As I previously noted, Ishii cooperated fully with U.S.
biological warfare scientists from that point forward
even to the extent of visiting Camp Detrick in Maryland
to help interpret the Unit 731 data. All this worked
out well, personally, for Ishii. He ended up living
comfortably in Japan on a pension until his death a
decade later.

WJH

[news]

Post by WJHopwood

......does anyone have an idea of the state of mind Ishii was in
after being captured?

According to the VFW 1995 magazine article I previously
cited, Ishii was calm and collected. His first impulse was
to look out for himself. After Japan surrendered and a U.S.
survey team was enroute to Unit 731, Ishii designated his
next in command, Dr,Ryoichi Naito, to meet the U.S.
representatives. He, Ishii, then went into hiding and made
plans to leave for Japan.
Lt Col. Murray Sanders, a biological warfare specialist
with the U.S. Scientific Intelligence Survey team was the
first U.S. representative to meet with Dr, Naito. That
meeting went well and Dr.Naito then put Col. Sanders
in touch with Ishii who offered to turn over the Unit 731
data in exchange for amnesty for himself and his close
staff. Those terms were then presented to MacArthur
who approved the deal.
As I previously noted, Ishii cooperated fully with U.S.
biological warfare scientists from that point forward
even to the extent of visiting Camp Detrick in Maryland
to help interpret the Unit 731 data. All this worked
out well, personally, for Ishii. He ended up living
comfortably in Japan on a pension until his death a
decade later.
WJH

it's a shame they couldn't have gotten the info AND hung him

[WJHopwood]

Post by news
while I realize he might have had special info, I have trouble
envisioning a situation where the info could not be had from recovered
papers/lab materials and/or other participants not to mention enhanced
interrogation and then try him

There were several problems with that scenario. The written and
physical data was voluminous, documentation was in Japanese, not
English, so translation by U.S. Army linguists was required. Nor
were the necessary personnel and facilities available at site to
accomplish what had to be done in researching all the material
after its translation. Accordingly, the U.S. spent 250,000 yen for
having 8000 slides of human tissue excavated as well as in locating
with Ishii's help the considerable documentation he had hidden in
the surrounding area when he learnedd that Japan had surrendered.
Everything was shipped to Camp Detrick, Md. U.S.A. where Ishii
later came to lecture U.S. scientists about resulrs of his human
experimentation. Ishii ended up in Japan where he received a
retirement pension. He died in the late 50's from cancer. The
VFW magazine of September 1995 had a detailed article about
Ishii and his fellow scientists at Unit 731 titled " 'Marutas' Suffered
Gruesome Deaths in Japan's Ausschwitz." Much of the information
I show above appeared therein in more detail and also in the book
by Gavan Daws, "Prisoners of the Japanese.
(Note: The Japanese called the prisoners at Unit 731
"Marutas" which meant "logs of wood." )

WJH

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by WJHopwood

Post by news
while I realize he might have had special info, I have trouble
envisioning a situation where the info could not be had from recovered
papers/lab materials and/or other participants not to mention enhanced
interrogation and then try him

There were several problems with that scenario. The written and
physical data was voluminous, documentation was in Japanese, not
English, so translation by U.S. Army linguists was required. Nor
were the necessary personnel and facilities available at site to
accomplish what had to be done in researching all the material
after its translation. Accordingly, the U.S. spent 250,000 yen for

That would have been about $125k, in 1945, considerably less after.

Post by WJHopwood
having 8000 slides of human tissue excavated as well as in locating
with Ishii's help the considerable documentation he had hidden in
the surrounding area when he learnedd that Japan had surrendered.

The problem turned out to be that the research was pretty much useless.
Not saying MacArthur didn't make an expedient decision, but the actual
value of the research was nil.

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by news

Post by WJHopwood
PS. After WWII and In 1950 I was recalled to active duty in the Navy Dept.
crypto center in Washington where we maintained constant communication
with U.S. forces in Korea. I can recall seeing concern expressed that there
might be a possibility of the introduction of germ warfare at that time but
thankfully it didn't happen.

while I realize he might have had special info, I have trouble
envisioning a situation where the info could not be had from recovered
papers/lab materials and/or other participants not to mention enhanced
interrogation and then try him

Couple things; while some of the records were captured, even if the entire
set of records were recovered intact, it's much easier to reconstruct an
experiment or line of investigation if you have one of the primary
researchers available. Also, not often mentioned, is that almost none of
the research on humans by either the nazis or the Japanese was of any
use. The subjects were, almost by definition, not in good health when
the experiments began, there were no controls, the methodologies of
research were suspect, etc. I know of no reputable papers in later years
that referenced the work of either Axis power in the fields of
epidemiology, high pressure effects, etc.

While the US may have thought they needed the work, in fact they were
pretty much useless.

Mike

[news]

Post by WJHopwood

..... A number of people who would fit the definition of
war criminals were recruited by western governments for their
intelligence about the Soviets and other communist organizations.
Many were brought over to work on rocket projects.

Defining who was a war criminal and who was not was simple in
many cases but complex in others. War Crimes as such covered a
wide variety of activities by individuals who committed atrocities
to those who made decisions which created policies resulting in
genocide and other crimes against humanity as generally defined
by the 2d Hague Convention of 1907 and generally accepted since
then by civilized nations throughout the world. Just being a member
of the Nazi party was not in and of itself a war crime, but many
Nazis were war criminals.

I didn't think that the OP was about the major players in the Nazi
regime. I was thinking about some of the more recent incidents where
former concentration camp guards and participants in death squads. Try
to get hold of the book Useful Enemies: John Demjanjuk and America's
Open-Door Policy for Nazi War Criminals. According to the Reuters review
of the book J Edgar Hoover recruited a large number of Nazis.


Among the Nazis and Nazi collaborators recruited was John Avdzej, who as
installed as a puppet mayor in the Niasvizh district. His first duty was
to clean the area of Poles and he participated in the murders. The FBI
protected him until 1984.

Post by WJHopwood
As far as I know, after the war the U.S. did not bring over any
German rocket scientists who were by definition war criminals.

He personally oversaw some of the slave labour at his facilities.

Post by WJHopwood
IIRC Von Braun and the few who came with him may have been
members of the Nazi party, as were many Germans who joined
before the war as a matter of personal expediency. but did not
participate during the war in either Nazi war crimes or the
decision-making which caused them.

A French Resistance member testified that von Braun personally ordered
that he be whipped, and then when he thought that lashes had not been
hard enough ordered that he be flogged more vigorously.

Dave Smith

[David Wilma]

Wasn't nearly all German war-related production the
result of slave labor? By that measure would not every
foreman, supervisor, and manager of a war plant be liable
for prosecution for war crimes?

[Michael Emrys]

Wasn't nearly all German war-related production the result of slave
labor?

Not all, but as the war progressed and more and more German laborers
were drafted into the armed forces, slave labor filled the gaps.

Michael