Discussion:
Sunken Japanese Submarine in Los Angeles Harbor!!
(too old to reply)
m***@gmail.com
2005-01-23 04:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Anyone ever hear a rumor of a Japanese Submarine gaining access to LA
harbor during World WarII..supposedly was sunk by depth charges after
gaining access to LA Harbor....I may have some interesting information
to share regarding this claim..

Mike Audette
--
a***@msn.com
2005-01-27 17:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Anyone ever hear a rumor of a Japanese Submarine gaining access to LA
harbor during World WarII..supposedly was sunk by depth charges after
gaining access to LA Harbor....I may have some interesting information
to share regarding this claim..
Vaguely remeber hearing something about a Japanese submarine being
sighted in LA harbour in Feb 1942, that caused a major panic over
fears of a Japanese invasion. Wasn't it this incident that was the
basis for the film "1941"?
--
Mike
2005-01-28 17:09:11 UTC
Permalink
This particular event happened sometime around the Spring of 1944....My
Father was in the U.S Navy stationed at Point Fermin San Pedro. There
was of small contigent of Navy personnel who were housed in a
dormitory/work station approximately 30 yards South of the still
standing Point Fermin Lighthouse. Their particular duty was to monitor
the 31 miles of magnectic underwater cable which extended from Point
Fermin to Sunset Beach. This cable was placed at the entrance to Los
Angeles Harbor to warn against any possible intrusions of enemy
boats,i.e.submarines. One particular day my dad and his partner were
on duty in their work area monitoring a "fluxmeter" which would alert
of any unusual activity....they noticed an unidentifed underwater
object attempting to gain entrance entrance to Los Angeles Harbor.
The immediately notified their superiors of their observation and
within 20 minutes a Navy Destroyer was dispatched to the area. My Dad
further remembers numerous depth charges being dropped and the the Navy
Destroyer leaving the area..Shortly thereafter my Dad's superior
(LCMDR R.D. Lemert) spoke to both my Dad and his Partner a said
"whatever you saw happened here did not happen" Otherwords he was not
to ever talk about this incident till after it became a matter of
public record. This event happened during the same period when the
Japanese were sending the Hot Air Ballons attempting to set fires in
California... He said that if the general public were to find about was
happened in Los Angeles Harbor that day ..people would panic.LCMDR
Lemert also told my Dad that he would receive some type of recognition
that would be placed in his Navy Personnel File....Unfortunately LCMDR
Lemert died three (3) weeks after this incident...the war ended..the
incident never became part of public record...and no notation was
placed in my Dad's Personnel File.

My Dad kept this particular event secret and never discussed it with
anyone until about three (3) years ago when he talked to me about
it..Does any know of a way to access Naval Records under the Freedom of
Information Act or any type of way to verify this incident!!!
Mike Audette
--
Dwilma
2005-01-30 23:59:46 UTC
Permalink
I would think that the IJN would have recorded the loss of a sub on a
mission to the US west coast.

I suggest looking up the destroyers stationed in the LA area during
that time period. An examination of logs could reveal the dropping of
depth charges. I suggest contacting the Naval history agencies, all of
which have an online presence. Once you have a series of ships' names,
you can see how to look up their logs and look around for veterans'
groups.

David Wilma
www.Historylink.org
--
RENABORNEY
2005-02-02 16:57:43 UTC
Permalink
In article <ctdrjn$jgm$***@gnus01.u.washington.edu>, "Mike" <***@gmail.com>
writes:


My Dad
further remembers numerous depth charges being dropped and the the Navy
Destroyer leaving the area. Shortly thereafter my Dad's superior (LCMDR R.D.
Lemert) spoke to both my Dad and his Partner a said "whatever you saw happened
here did not happen" Otherwords he was not to ever talk about this incident
till after it became a matter of public record. This event happened during the
same period when the Japanese were sending the Hot Air Ballons attempting to
set fires in California... He said that if the general public were to find
about was happened in Los Angeles Harbor that day ..people would panic

SNIP

Think about what you wrote. The destroyer dropped numerous depth charges, the
blasts of which could clearly be seen and heard from shore by your father. And
the evemt allegedly happened in LA harbor or near to it? Hundreds, if not
thousands of people would have the oppotunity to witness what was going on.
"Keep this under your hat to avoid panicing the civilians" doesn't seem very
logical when everybody for miles would have heard the depth-charging. .
Post by Mike
Does any know of a way to access Naval Records under the Freedom of
Information Act or any type of way to verify this incident!!!
Mike Audette
SNIP

First, check out the appropriate volume of Samuel Elliott Morrison's
magisterial fiftteen volume "History of United States Naval Opearions In World
War II". If you live in a major city or near a major univesity, the library
probably has a copy. If not, your local libabry can get it for you via
inter-Libabry Loan. If a destroyer sank a sub near Los Angelese, it would be
there. *If no sub swas sunk, don't expect to find anything - such "false
positives: and subsequent attacks on nothing were a dime a dozen)

I don't think any Japanese sub was sunk near Los Angeles - particularly during
the balloon campaign late in the war when most (not all - as the USS
Indianaplois found out) of them were being used for resupply missions to
isolated Japanese island garrisons. Check the section on Japanese subs and
their fates at the "Kaigun" website (despite the title, it's in English) and
our very own Andrew Toppan's "Haze Grey and Underway" website.

THe National Archives are a subject in themself. Best bet is to talk with the
people who run the Coast Defence Study Group website (you might mention what
you are looking for - virtually all defended harbors had the Harbor Entrance
Control Point manned by both Naval and Army personnel). The CDSG Journal has
had occasional articles on doing resreach in the Archives. One thing that
DOESN'T happen is that you show up and say, "What do you have on XYZ?" and
expect them to find it for you. The personnel will show you to a computer
terminal, explain the indexing system and leave it up to you to locate what
looks promising. IIRC, you then pay a nominal fee to have them pull the record
and they go get it.

You'd probbaly be looking for after-action reports submitted by your father's
CO and the skipper of the destroyer in question. Do you know the name of the
organization your father served in? What about the name of the destroyer?
Approximate date of the incident?

I don't the the FOIA is applicable here. It would kick in if you found a report
in the index, asked to see it and were told, "No can do. It's still
classified." You would then request toi have it declassified undetr the FOIA.
The chance of a document from 1944-45 and not adressing atomic energy or
intelliegnce operations still being classified is IMHO between zero and none
Mike Audette
2013-09-04 16:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
This particular event happened sometime around the Spring of 1944....My
Father was in the U.S Navy stationed at Point Fermin San Pedro. There
was of small contigent of Navy personnel who were housed in a
dormitory/work station approximately 30 yards South of the still
standing Point Fermin Lighthouse. Their particular duty was to monitor
the 31 miles of magnectic underwater cable which extended from Point
Fermin to Sunset Beach. This cable was placed at the entrance to Los
Angeles Harbor to warn against any possible intrusions of enemy
boats,i.e.submarines. One particular day my dad and his partner were
on duty in their work area monitoring a "fluxmeter" which would alert
of any unusual activity....they noticed an unidentifed underwater
object attempting to gain entrance entrance to Los Angeles Harbor.
The immediately notified their superiors of their observation and
within 20 minutes a Navy Destroyer was dispatched to the area. My Dad
further remembers numerous depth charges being dropped and the the Navy
Destroyer leaving the area..Shortly thereafter my Dad's superior
(LCMDR R.D. Lemert) spoke to both my Dad and his Partner a said
"whatever you saw happened here did not happen" Otherwords he was not
to ever talk about this incident till after it became a matter of
public record. This event happened during the same period when the
Japanese were sending the Hot Air Ballons attempting to set fires in
California... He said that if the general public were to find about was
happened in Los Angeles Harbor that day ..people would panic.LCMDR
Lemert also told my Dad that he would receive some type of recognition
that would be placed in his Navy Personnel File....Unfortunately LCMDR
Lemert died three (3) weeks after this incident...the war ended..the
incident never became part of public record...and no notation was
placed in my Dad's Personnel File.
My Dad kept this particular event secret and never discussed it with
anyone until about three (3) years ago when he talked to me about
it..Does any know of a way to access Naval Records under the Freedom of
Information Act or any type of way to verify this incident!!!
Mike Audette
--
Ten Years of personal research on this Subject an I have come to a dead end.
...A story that my father who is 88 years old knows that happened in
Mid 1944 while working in the U.S.Navy at Point Fermin, San Pedro,
during World War II. I have sent some links with this email. It is all about
discovering the truth in my Father's account of what happened regarding
the sinking of a Japanese submarine near the breakwater of LA Harbor.
My previous post on Google Groups over ten years ago are attached.

I recently found newspaper articles in the past couple of months
(previously unknown) which raises more question than answers.
I have failed to find any followup articles to either prove or disprove
my father's contention. It is my contention that my Father reported the
intrusion of this Japanese Submarine in the Summer of 1944, including
the exact location as described in the Newspaper article described by Bob
Bell. This submarine disappeared after reports in 1959 with no further
reporting. My contention is someone knows (U.S. Navy) what happened.
My links and attachments go into more depth.

Pls reply and let me know if I am at a Dead End. MY Dad will go to his
grave knowing that this story he relates is true and factual.

Michael R. Audette, SMSgt., USAF (Ret)
news
2013-09-04 19:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Audette
Post by Mike
This particular event happened sometime around the Spring of 1944....My
Father was in the U.S Navy stationed at Point Fermin San Pedro. There
was of small contigent of Navy personnel who were housed in a
dormitory/work station approximately 30 yards South of the still
standing Point Fermin Lighthouse. Their particular duty was to monitor
the 31 miles of magnectic underwater cable which extended from Point
Fermin to Sunset Beach. This cable was placed at the entrance to Los
Angeles Harbor to warn against any possible intrusions of enemy
boats,i.e.submarines. One particular day my dad and his partner were
on duty in their work area monitoring a "fluxmeter" which would alert
of any unusual activity....they noticed an unidentifed underwater
object attempting to gain entrance entrance to Los Angeles Harbor.
The immediately notified their superiors of their observation and
within 20 minutes a Navy Destroyer was dispatched to the area. My Dad
further remembers numerous depth charges being dropped and the the Navy
Destroyer leaving the area..Shortly thereafter my Dad's superior
(LCMDR R.D. Lemert) spoke to both my Dad and his Partner a said
"whatever you saw happened here did not happen" Otherwords he was not
to ever talk about this incident till after it became a matter of
public record. This event happened during the same period when the
Japanese were sending the Hot Air Ballons attempting to set fires in
California... He said that if the general public were to find about was
happened in Los Angeles Harbor that day ..people would panic.LCMDR
Lemert also told my Dad that he would receive some type of recognition
that would be placed in his Navy Personnel File....Unfortunately LCMDR
Lemert died three (3) weeks after this incident...the war ended..the
incident never became part of public record...and no notation was
placed in my Dad's Personnel File.
My Dad kept this particular event secret and never discussed it with
anyone until about three (3) years ago when he talked to me about
it..Does any know of a way to access Naval Records under the Freedom of
Information Act or any type of way to verify this incident!!!
Mike Audette
--
Ten Years of personal research on this Subject an I have come to a dead end.
...A story that my father who is 88 years old knows that happened in
Mid 1944 while working in the U.S.Navy at Point Fermin, San Pedro,
during World War II. I have sent some links with this email. It is all about
discovering the truth in my Father's account of what happened regarding
the sinking of a Japanese submarine near the breakwater of LA Harbor.
My previous post on Google Groups over ten years ago are attached.
I recently found newspaper articles in the past couple of months
(previously unknown) which raises more question than answers.
I have failed to find any followup articles to either prove or disprove
my father's contention. It is my contention that my Father reported the
intrusion of this Japanese Submarine in the Summer of 1944, including
the exact location as described in the Newspaper article described by Bob
Bell. This submarine disappeared after reports in 1959 with no further
reporting. My contention is someone knows (U.S. Navy) what happened.
My links and attachments go into more depth.
Pls reply and let me know if I am at a Dead End. MY Dad will go to his
grave knowing that this story he relates is true and factual.
Michael R. Audette, SMSgt., USAF (Ret)
seems to me that if a Japanese submarine were destroyed in/near Los
Angeles harbor, that submarine would have left quite a bit of flotsam
making its way into the harbor/beaches. what you described from your
father doesn't indicate that there was any effort at sweeping for this
flotsam or in fact any extraordinary action. furthermore, such a
sighting/sinking would have led to a heightened alert warning, more
patrols both sea and air and some kind of explanation of all the depth
charges.

have you searched fleet dispositions for the time and area to see if
there were any blips.

one could suppose that perhaps if anything got sunk it was either a
whale or an American Sub
Rich Rostrom
2013-09-05 16:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
one could suppose that perhaps if anything got sunk
it was either a whale or an American Sub
The most probable explanation is that there was a
noise blip on the "fluxmeter", and a destroyer dropped
DCs on something, possibly a whale or an old wreck.

The order to keep silent about the incident does not
mean that there was an actual Japanese submarine
there, only that the Navy authorities didn't want any
rumors causing public alarm.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Michael Emrys
2013-09-05 22:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
one could suppose that perhaps if anything got sunk it was either a
whale or an American Sub
When did whales start having a magnetic signature that could be confused
with a sub? Echo maybe, but magnetic?

Michael
news
2013-09-06 20:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
Post by news
one could suppose that perhaps if anything got sunk it was either a
whale or an American Sub
When did whales start having a magnetic signature that could be confused
with a sub? Echo maybe, but magnetic?
Michael
the whole story has so many wholes in it, that it would surprise me if
the fluxometer blipped and there happened to be a whale under/near the
destroyer that dropped the DCs
Mario
2013-09-08 17:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by RENABORNEY
In article
Post by Michael Emrys
Post by news
one could suppose that perhaps if anything got sunk it was
either a whale or an American Sub
When did whales start having a magnetic signature that could
be confused with a sub? Echo maybe, but magnetic?
Michael
the whole story has so many wholes in it, that it would
surprise me if the fluxometer blipped and there happened to be
a whale under/near the destroyer that dropped the DCs
I suppose that nearby all ports there is a lot of iron undersea
since when ships were made of iron.
--
_____
/ o o \
\o_o_o/
Mike Audette
2013-09-09 15:35:59 UTC
Permalink
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AgtIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=woAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=4190%2C485881
Mike Audette
2013-09-09 16:18:29 UTC
Permalink
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-yQsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S54FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4458%2C6771326
Mike Audette
2013-09-09 16:54:37 UTC
Permalink
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AgtIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=woAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=4190%2C485881
Mike Audette
2013-09-09 19:28:52 UTC
Permalink
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=26IfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=49UEAAAAIBAJ&dq=japanese%20submarine%20los%20angeles%20bob%20bell&pg=1776%2C3138089
w***@hotmail.com
2005-01-28 16:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Anyone ever hear a rumor of a Japanese Submarine gaining access to LA
harbor during World WarII..supposedly was sunk by depth charges after
gaining access to LA Harbor....I may have some interesting information
to share regarding this claim..
Mind sharing this interesting information?

I have lived in the area of the L.A. Harbor for 65 years, and have
never heard this rumor. Anything to it? The only 2 actions I ever
heard about in this area involving Japanese subs was 1) a tanker was
sunk in the Catalina Channel by a Japanese sub, and 2) a Japanese sub
surfaced off the coast of Goleta, CA just north of Santa Barbara and
shelled the Bankline Oil Refinery early in 1942. No casualties that I
recall, although one of the rounds set an oil derrick or tank on fire.
One of the rounds from the deck gun was a dud, and landed on the
property of a house owner in Goleta. The round was picked up by the
U.S. Army, handed over to the Navy, who in turn transported the shell
to the U.S. Navy weapons lab in Washington, DC for analysis. The shell
was eventually delivered back to the residents in Goleta, where today
it sits on their front porch as a conversation piece.

Tim Watkins
JCarew
2005-02-03 16:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Anyone ever hear a rumor of a Japanese Submarine
gaining access to LA harbor during World WarII..supposedly
was sunk by depth charges after gaining access to LA
Harbor....I may have some interesting information
to share regarding this claim..
My family has lived in the Los Angeles area for the past
80 years and none of us have heard a "sea story" like this
one. To begin with if a Japanese sub had been "sunk by
depth charges after gaining access to LA Harbor...." don't
you think with all the under water activity in the LA Harbor
area(in and out of the harbor proper)over the past 60 years
someone would have snagged(in our large fishing fleet)
or seen some evidence of your "Japanese Submarine" by
now? Also if I might add the San Pedro/Pales Verde(sp)
section of LA City is on hills that over looking the LA/LB
harbor/coastal area so it would seem to me if the US
Navy depth charged a Japanese sub at least somebody
out of the 20,000 or so people that lived in house's over
looking the area would have seen or heard it.

Jim
Hal Hanig
2005-02-04 00:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by JCarew
My family has lived in the Los Angeles area for the past
80 years and none of us have heard a "sea story" like this
one. To begin with if a Japanese sub had been "sunk by
depth charges after gaining access to LA Harbor...." don't
you think with all the under water activity in the LA Harbor
area(in and out of the harbor proper)over the past 60 years
someone would have snagged(in our large fishing fleet)
or seen some evidence of your "Japanese Submarine" by
now? Also if I might add the San Pedro/Pales Verde(sp)
section of LA City is on hills that over looking the LA/LB
harbor/coastal area so it would seem to me if the US
Navy depth charged a Japanese sub at least somebody
out of the 20,000 or so people that lived in house's over
looking the area would have seen or heard it.
It wasn't but a couple of weeks or so ago that someone was suggesting that a
German Uboat either sunk a ship or was sunk in New York harbor in 1942. Either
it's something in the water or 'tis the season for the kiddies to play in
public.
(^-^)))

George Z.
--
William
2005-02-06 22:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hal Hanig
It wasn't but a couple of weeks or so ago that someone was suggesting that a
German Uboat either sunk a ship or was sunk in New York harbor in 1942.
Either
it's something in the water or 'tis the season for the kiddies to play in
public.
(^-^)))
I fail to see the connection. The incident in New York harbor was mentioned
by Rear Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison in his 16 volume History of United
States Naval Operations in World War II, which was for many years after WWII
considered the official history and was the historical basis for the Victory
at Sea series.
Not only that, but the explosion was confirmed in declassified U.S. Coast
Guard documents.

Following the explosion, the New York harbor was shut-down for two days, the
only time during the war, and probably in its entire history that New York
Harbor has ever been closed to traffic. I never suggested that a ship was
sunk; I suggested that it might have been an attempt to damage the Statue of
Liberty, which would make a lot better movie. But now that you mention it,
knowing how mines usually work and considering that at the time the German
Kriegsmarine were sinking ships faster than the US could make them, it
doesn't seem altogether too far-fetched that they hoped to sink some ships
too.
--
Don Kirkman
2005-02-05 17:55:35 UTC
Permalink
It seems to me I heard somewhere that JCarew wrote in article
Post by JCarew
My family has lived in the Los Angeles area for the past
80 years and none of us have heard a "sea story" like this
one. To begin with if a Japanese sub had been "sunk by
depth charges after gaining access to LA Harbor...." don't
you think with all the under water activity in the LA Harbor
area(in and out of the harbor proper)over the past 60 years
someone would have snagged(in our large fishing fleet)
or seen some evidence of your "Japanese Submarine" by
now? Also if I might add the San Pedro/Pales Verde(sp)
section of LA City is on hills that over looking the LA/LB
harbor/coastal area so it would seem to me if the US
Navy depth charged a Japanese sub at least somebody
out of the 20,000 or so people that lived in house's over
looking the area would have seen or heard it.
By comparison, the similar "air raid" on Los Angeles shortly after the
start of the war was widely reported even at the time and is still
discussed or described regularly in the LA area media.

Minor factual correction: San Pedro is a section of Los Angeles City
(but I'm not sure whether that was true during WW II), but the other
four cities on the Palos Verdes Peninsula are independent, and only
Rolling Hills Estates, on the Pacific side of the peninsula away from
San Pedro/LA Harbor, existed before WW II.
--
Don Kirkman
--
w***@hotmail.com
2005-02-09 00:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kirkman
By comparison, the similar "air raid" on Los Angeles shortly after the
start of the war was widely reported even at the time and is still
discussed or described regularly in the LA area media.
Yes, it was quite a fireworks show over L.A., when apparently
unidentified a/c were reported over the city and AA batteries opened up
on the a/c. My parents witnessed that show with great interest, and
recall hearing about it from them. ISTR it was a USAAF training flight
that had failed to file a flight plan; thus, the falling shrapnel over
L.A. which, ISTR, injured some people on the ground. Also seem to
recall this was the basis for the movie "1941" with John Belushi.
Post by Don Kirkman
Minor factual correction: San Pedro is a section of Los Angeles City
(but I'm not sure whether that was true during WW II), but the other
four cities on the Palos Verdes Peninsula are independent, and only
Rolling Hills Estates, on the Pacific side of the peninsula away from
San Pedro/LA Harbor, existed before WW II.
San Pedro during WW II was part of Los Angeles City. Rolling Hills
Estates, as an incorporated city, did not exist during WW II. The city
was incorporated in September of 1957 and, prior to that date, was
unincorporated territory of Los Angeles County.

Tim Watkins
--
JCarew
2005-02-11 18:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@hotmail.com
Post by Don Kirkman
By comparison, the similar "air raid" on Los Angeles
shortly after the
start of the war was widely reported even at the time and is still
discussed or described regularly in the LA area media.
Yes, it was quite a fireworks show over L.A., when apparently
unidentified a/c were reported over the city and AA batteries opened up
on the a/c. My parents witnessed that show with great interest, and
recall hearing about it from them. ISTR it was a USAAF training flight
that had failed to file a flight plan; thus, the falling shrapnel over
L.A. which, ISTR, injured some people on the ground. Also seem to
recall this was the basis for the movie "1941" with John Belushi.
Here's a little history on the subject

The Battle of Los Angeles-1942

During the night of 24/25 February 1942, unidentified objects caused a
succession of alerts in southern California. On the 24th, a warning issued
by naval intelligence indicated that an attack could be expected within
the next ten hours. That evening a large number of flares and blinking
lights were reported from the vicinity of defense plants. An alert called
at 1918 [7:18 p.m., Pacific time] was lifted at 2223, and the tension
temporarily relaxed. But early in the morning of the 25th renewed activity
began. Radars picked up an unidentified target 120 miles west of Los
Angeles. Antiaircraft batteries were alerted at 0215 and were put on Green
Alert-ready to fire-a few minutes later. The AAF kept its pursuit planes
on the ground, preferring to await indications of the scale and direction
of any attack before committing its limited fighter force. Radars tracked
the approaching target to within a few miles of the coast, and at 0221 the
regional controller ordered a blackout. Thereafter the information center
was flooded with reports of "enemy planes, " even though the mysterious
object tracked in from sea seems to have vanished. At 0243, planes were
reported near Long Beach, and a few minutes later a coast artillery
colonel spotted "about 25 planes at 12,000 feet" over Los Angeles. At 0306
a balloon carrying a red flare was seen over Santa Monica and four
batteries of anti-aircraft artillery opened fire, whereupon "the air over
Los Angeles erupted like a volcano." From this point on reports were
hopelessly at variance.

Probably much of the confusion came from the fact that anti-aircraft shell
bursts, caught by the searchlights, were themselves mistaken for enemy
planes. In any case, the next three hours produced some of the most
imaginative reporting of the war: "swarms" of planes (or, sometimes,
balloons) of all possible sizes, numbering from one to several hundred,
traveling at altitudes which ranged from a few thousand feet to more than
20,000 and flying at speeds which were said to have varied from "very
slow" to over 200 miles per hour, were observed to parade across the
skies. These mysterious forces dropped no bombs and, despite the fact that
1,440 rounds of anti-aircraft ammunition were directed against them,
suffered no losses. There were reports, to be sure, that four enemy planes
had been shot down, and one was supposed to have landed in flames at a
Hollywood intersection. Residents in a forty-mile arc along the coast
watched from hills or rooftops as the play of guns and searchlights
provided the first real drama of the war for citizens of the mainland. The
dawn, which ended the shooting and the fantasy, also proved that the only
damage which resulted to the city was such as had been caused by the
excitement (there was at least one death from heart failure), by traffic
accidents in the blacked-out streets, or by shell fragments from the
artillery barrage.

Attempts to arrive at an explanation of the incident quickly became as
involved and mysterious as the "battle" itself. The Navy immediately
insisted that there was no evidence of the presence of enemy planes, and
Secretary [of the Navy, Frank] Knox announced at a press conference on 25
February that the raid was just a false alarm. At the same conference he
admitted that attacks were always possible and indicated that vital
industries located along the coast ought to be moved inland. The Army had
a hard time making up its mind on the cause of the alert. A report to
Washington, made by the Western Defense Command shortly after the raid had
ended, indicated that the credibility of reports of an attack had begun to
be shaken before the blackout was lifted. This message predicted that
developments would prove "that most previous reports had been greatly
exaggerated." The Fourth Air Force had indicated its belief that there
were no planes over Los Angeles. But the Army did not publish these
initial conclusions. Instead, it waited a day, until after a thorough
examination of witnesses had been finished. On the basis of these
hearings, local commanders altered their verdict and indicated a belief
that from one to five unidentified airplanes had been over Los Angeles.
Secretary Stimson announced this conclusion as the War Department version
of the incident, and he advanced two theories to account for the
mysterious craft: either they were commercial planes operated by an enemy
from secret fields in California or Mexico, or they were light planes
launched from Japanese submarines. In either case, the enemy's purpose
must have been to locate anti-aircraft defenses in the area or to deliver
a blow at civilian morale.

The divergence of views between the War and Navy departments, and the
unsatisfying conjectures advanced by the Army to explain the affair,
touched off a vigorous public discussion. The Los Angeles Times, in a
first-page editorial on 26 February, announced that "the considerable
public excitement and confusion" caused by the alert, as well as its
"spectacular official accompaniments, " demanded a careful explanation.
Fears were expressed lest a few phony raids undermine the confidence of
civilian volunteers in the aircraft warning service. In Congress,
Representative Leland Ford wanted to know whether the incident was "a
practice raid, or a raid to throw a scare into 2,000,000 people, or a
mistaken identity raid, or a raid to take away Southern California's war
industries." Wendell Willkie, speaking in Los Angeles on 26 February,
assured Californians on the basis of his experiences in England that when
a real air raid began "you won't have to argue about it-you'll just know."
He conceded that military authorities had been correct in calling a
precautionary alert but deplored the lack of agreement between the Army
and Navy. A strong editorial in the Washington Post on 27 February called
the handling of the Los Angeles episode a "recipe for jitters," and
censured the military authorities for what it called "stubborn silence" in
the face of widespread uncertainty. The editorial suggested that the
Army's theory that commercial planes might have caused the alert "explains
everything except where the planes came from, whither they were going, and
why no American planes were sent in pursuit of them." The New York Times
on 28 February expressed a belief that the more the incident was studied,
the more incredible it became: "If the batteries were firing on nothing at
all, as Secretary Knox implies, it is a sign of expensive incompetence and
jitters. If the batteries were firing on real planes, some of them as low
as 9,000 feet, as Secretary Stimson declares, why were they completely
ineffective? Why did no American planes go up to engage them, or even to
identify them?... What would have happened if this had been a real air
raid?" These questions were appropriate, but for the War Department to
have answered them in full frankness would have involved an even more
complete revelation of the weakness of our air defenses.

At the end of the war, the Japanese stated that they did not send planes
over the area at the time of this alert, although submarine-launched
aircraft were subsequently used over Seattle. A careful study of the
evidence suggests that meteorological balloons-known to have been released
over Los Angeles -may well have caused the initial alarm. This theory is
supported by the fact that anti-aircraft artillery units were officially
criticized for having wasted ammunition on targets which moved too slowly
to have been airplanes. After the firing started, careful observation was
difficult because of drifting smoke from shell bursts. The acting
commander of the anti-aircraft artillery brigade in the area testified
that he had first been convinced that he had seen fifteen planes in the
air, but had quickly decided that he was seeing smoke. Competent
correspondents like Ernie Pyle and Bill Henry witnessed the shooting and
wrote that they were never able to make out an airplane. It is hard to
see, in any event, what enemy purpose would have been served by an attack
in which no bombs were dropped, unless perhaps, as Mr. Stimson suggested,
the purpose had been reconnaissance.


In: The Army Air Forces in World War II, prepared under the editorship of
Wesley Frank Craven, James Lea Cate. v.1, pp. 277-286, Washington, D.C. :
Office of Air Force History : For sale by the Supt. of Docs., U.S. G.P.O.,
1983.

See "http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist9/aaf2.html"

I lived in the LA basin at the time

Jim Carew
Post by w***@hotmail.com
Post by Don Kirkman
Minor factual correction: San Pedro is a section of Los Angeles City
(but I'm not sure whether that was true during WW II), but the other
four cities on the Palos Verdes Peninsula are independent, and only
Rolling Hills Estates, on the Pacific side of the peninsula away from
San Pedro/LA Harbor, existed before WW II.
San Pedro during WW II was part of Los Angeles City. Rolling Hills
Estates, as an incorporated city, did not exist during WW II. The city
was incorporated in September of 1957 and, prior to that date, was
unincorporated territory of Los Angeles County.
Dwilma
2005-02-12 23:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by JCarew
At the end of the war, the Japanese stated that they did not send planes
over the area at the time of this alert, although submarine-launched
aircraft were subsequently used over Seattle.
No. According to Bert Webber in Retaliation: Japanese Attacks and
Allied Countermeasures on
the Pacific Coast in World War II, after the war, a U.S. Navy
interrogator apparently misunderstood a Japanese staff officer,
Masatake Okumiya, and recorded that in June 1942, a submarine had
launched a reconnaisance by air from the Pacific against Seattle to
observe any warships, particularly aircraft carriers. This was
published in official military documents and picked up by civilian
historians. The disclosure came as a disappointment to those
responsible for Seattle's air defenses at the time since the intrusion
went undetected.

In 1974, the staff officer, by then a retired Lieutenant General of the
Japanese Air Self Defense Forces, attributed the error to problems in
interpretation. The surviving commander I-26, the only submarine
operating along the Washington coast at the time, reported that on that
voyage, the aircraft hanger was filled with food and supplies for a
long voyage and he carried no airplane.

David Wilma
www.Historylink.org
--
JCarew
2005-02-14 02:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dwilma
Post by JCarew
At the end of the war, the Japanese stated that they did not
send planes over the area at the time of this alert, although
submarine-launched aircraft were subsequently used over
Seattle.
No. According to Bert Webber in Retaliation: Japanese Attacks and
Allied Countermeasures on
the Pacific Coast in World War II, after the war, a U.S. Navy
interrogator apparently misunderstood a Japanese staff officer,
Masatake Okumiya, and recorded that in June 1942, a submarine had
launched a reconnaisance by air from the Pacific against Seattle to
observe any warships, particularly aircraft carriers. This was
published in official military documents and picked up by civilian
historians. The disclosure came as a disappointment to those
responsible for Seattle's air defenses at the time since the intrusion
went undetected.
In 1974, the staff officer, by then a retired Lieutenant General of the
Japanese Air Self Defense Forces, attributed the error to problems in
interpretation. The surviving commander I-26, the only submarine
operating along the Washington coast at the time, reported that on that
voyage, the aircraft hanger was filled with food and supplies for a
long voyage and he carried no airplane.
See: The Army Air Forces in World War II, by Wesley
Frank Craven, and James Lea Cate. v.1, pp. 277-286,
Washington, D.C.: Office of Air Force History

Also see: "http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist9/aaf2.html"

Jim


--
Don Kirkman
2005-02-11 23:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@hotmail.com
Post by Don Kirkman
By comparison, the similar "air raid" on Los Angeles shortly after
the
Post by Don Kirkman
start of the war was widely reported even at the time and is still
discussed or described regularly in the LA area media.
Yes, it was quite a fireworks show over L.A., when apparently
unidentified a/c were reported over the city and AA batteries opened up
on the a/c. My parents witnessed that show with great interest, and
recall hearing about it from them. ISTR it was a USAAF training flight
that had failed to file a flight plan; thus, the falling shrapnel over
L.A. which, ISTR, injured some people on the ground. Also seem to
recall this was the basis for the movie "1941" with John Belushi.
Post by Don Kirkman
Minor factual correction: San Pedro is a section of Los Angeles City
(but I'm not sure whether that was true during WW II), but the other
four cities on the Palos Verdes Peninsula are independent, and only
Rolling Hills Estates, on the Pacific side of the peninsula away from
San Pedro/LA Harbor, existed before WW II.
San Pedro during WW II was part of Los Angeles City. Rolling Hills
Estates, as an incorporated city, did not exist during WW II. The city
was incorporated in September of 1957 and, prior to that date, was
unincorporated territory of Los Angeles County.
You're quite right; I had the right location and date but inadvertently
switched the names between Rolling Hills Estates (Inc. 1957) and Palos
Verdes Estates (Inc. 1939). Thanks for the correction and for
confirming San Pedro was already part of Los Angeles City by WW II.
--
Don Kirkman
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