Cartography

[David Wilma]

I took a class over the weekend on emergency preparedness
which included mapping and modern navigation techniques.
I did not know that GPS maps differ from USGS maps, maybe
a few dozen meters. That led me to wonder who of the major
combatants "got it" when it came to making and distributing
maps to combat units.

I have read about air crews pioneering routes across Africa
and Asia with National Geographic maps and discovering
that elevations were in meters rather than feet (oops). At
some point, headquarters handed out maps of the objectives
to air crews and platoon leaders. I'm sure that the European
powers benefitted from pre-war espionage and collecting
tourist information, but the really important information
would have to come from serious cartography.

I just read an article by Susan Schulten in the New Republic
about the maps drawn by Richard Edes Harrison for Fortune
magazine. But these were for popular consumption and not
too useful for navigation and fire control. Who did the best
maps and how?

[Don Phillipson]

. . . At some point, headquarters handed out maps of the objectives
to air crews and platoon leaders. I'm sure that the European
powers benefitted from pre-war espionage and collecting
tourist information, but the really important information
would have to come from serious cartography.

Not really, in practice.
1. Aircrew were of course supplied with topo. maps of their
field of operations (and later special maps of Gee, Loran,
etc., which are different) but those were not target maps.
I.e. there is a practical difference between identifying an
assigned target (optically or electronically) and navigating
across enemy territory to the place where you can begin
looking for your target.
2. Army units as small as platoons (25 to 45 men) were
seldom provided with maps. Infantry platoons could usually
see their assigned targets from their start lines. The
prewar army tradition had assumed that maps were needed
only at battalion HQ and higher levels, and it took years to
increase the supply of maps and convince officers that
rankers could be trusted with maps, if available.

The Normandy landings (D-day) offer the best data to
support your conclusion, because history records that
detailed local geographic information was sought
everywhere it had been recorded, including shipwreck
insurance settlements and private holiday snapshots.
But this did not have much role in normal army combat
(as in Italy, Netherlands, etc.) or in planned air bombing.

[SolomonW]

Post by Don Phillipson
The Normandy landings (D-day) offer the best data to
support your conclusion, because history records that
detailed local geographic information was sought
everywhere it had been recorded, including shipwreck
insurance settlements and private holiday snapshots.

Exactly the same occured before landing in Italy, the US intelligence
department requested anyone with any knowledge of the area to come forward.

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[Don Phillipson]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Don Phillipson
The Normandy landings (D-day) offer the best data to
support your conclusion, because history records that
detailed local geographic information was sought
everywhere it had been recorded, including shipwreck
insurance settlements and private holiday snapshots.

Exactly the same occured before landing in Italy, the US intelligence
department requested anyone with any knowledge of the area to come forward.

I question "exactly" for various reasons e.g. the shortage
of "private holiday snapshots" of Sicilian and Calabrian
landing beaches (all very far from tourist destinations in
the 1930s). Physical conditions were different, e.g.
Mediterranean tides were insignificant for landing
purposes, weather could be forecast reliably (from
Allied weather stations east and west of Italy) and
the Italians had not fortified their coast like Hitler's
"West Wall" in Normandy.

[Bill]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 17:59:19 -0400, "Don Phillipson"

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by SolomonW

Post by Don Phillipson
The Normandy landings (D-day) offer the best data to
support your conclusion, because history records that
detailed local geographic information was sought
everywhere it had been recorded, including shipwreck
insurance settlements and private holiday snapshots.

Exactly the same occured before landing in Italy, the US intelligence
department requested anyone with any knowledge of the area to come forward.

I question "exactly" for various reasons e.g. the shortage
of "private holiday snapshots" of Sicilian and Calabrian
landing beaches (all very far from tourist destinations in
the 1930s). Physical conditions were different, e.g.
Mediterranean tides were insignificant for landing
purposes, weather could be forecast reliably (from
Allied weather stations east and west of Italy) and
the Italians had not fortified their coast like Hitler's
"West Wall" in Normandy.

Ah, but asking for holiday snaps of the Normandy beaches might just
give the game away...

My mother informs me that everyone was asked for all holiday snaps,
and even picture postcards, from all foreign holidays in what was
then occupied Europe.

[SolomonW]

Post by Bill
Ah, but asking for holiday snaps of the Normandy beaches might just
give the game away...
My mother informs me that everyone was asked for all holiday snaps,
and even picture postcards, from all foreign holidays in what was
then occupied Europe.

I suspect the people that asked her did not know the place for the invasion
either and possibily they worked on the principle that no-one will complain
if they bring too much.

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[Michael Emrys]

I question "exactly" for various reasons e.g. the shortage of
"private holiday snapshots" of Sicilian and Calabrian landing beaches
(all very far from tourist destinations in the 1930s).

If you are referring to the Salerno landings, (and yes I am aware that
the Eighth Army BAYTOWN landings did occur on the Calabrian coast),
those were not in Calabria but in Campania. And that was indeed a
tourist destination for long years before the war and the subject of
many snapshots and commercially available postcards. In fact, as part of
the packet of informative materials issued to army and naval personnel
to aid the landings were panoramic sketches of the landing zones as seen
from the sea to aid the landing waves in orienting themselves. In the
ones I have seen the contours of the hills and mountains are quite
distinctly and accurately represented.

Michael

[John Szalay]

. . . At some point, headquarters handed out maps of the objectives
to air crews and platoon leaders. I'm sure that the European
powers benefitted from pre-war espionage and collecting
tourist information, but the really important information
would have to come from serious cartography.

In the LIFE magazine photo archives there is a set of "tourist images"
collected for just that purpose.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/6bebbab77b166ab0.html
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f1cfd1ad1e28e955.html
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/2ee8627cb8fff13a.html
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/0aa0546c0d06b8b9.html
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/da316bf6dd9b9293.html
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/9e20c075c23460cb.html

[Jim H.]

On Monday, October 20, 2014 8:29:51 PM UTC-4, David Wilma wrote:
.... But these were for popular consumption and not

Post by David Wilma
too useful for navigation and fire control. Who did the best
maps and how?

I don't have a clue as to who did it best, or how. But
I think I've read somewhere that some maps were prepared
or at least checked or corrected, from aerial recon
photography, maybe stereo views.

I don't know if anybody in WWII went as far as producing the
kind of detailed permanent 3-D scale model the the British
made before the Battle of Messines (Archaeology magazine,
Sept/Oct '14). I have read of 'sand tables' being used in WW II.
I don't know if they were used at a small unit tactical level, and
their usefulness as 'maps' wound be totally memory dependent.

Jim H.

Jim H.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Jim H.
I don't know if anybody in WWII went as far as producing the
kind of detailed permanent 3-D scale model the the British
made before the Battle of Messines (Archaeology magazine,
Sept/Oct '14). I have read of 'sand tables' being used in WW II.
I don't know if they were used at a small unit tactical level, and
their usefulness as 'maps' wound be totally memory dependent.

I think D-Day beaches were modeled in detail and the models went
eventually to the Imperial War Museum, London.

Sand tables were used throughout the 20th century to plan
manoeuvres and battles, both at staff college and in action.
The British army puts a high premium on "an eye for ground,"
thus aims to teach it thoroughly to junior officers.

[The Horny Goat]

Post by Jim H.
I don't know if anybody in WWII went as far as producing the
kind of detailed permanent 3-D scale model the the British
made before the Battle of Messines (Archaeology magazine,
Sept/Oct '14). I have read of 'sand tables' being used in WW II.
I don't know if they were used at a small unit tactical level, and
their usefulness as 'maps' wound be totally memory dependent.

There's a story in Cornelius Ryan's A Bridge Too Far about a sand
table being used in the Market-Garden planning. One of the senior
officers from one of American airborne regiments (from the 82nd I
believe) just before pulling the cover off the sand table said to his
officers "And this gentlemen is where you are going!", pulled the
cover off to reveal a town on the Maas (south of Nijmegen) named
Grave.

Ryan records that there was dead silence from the junior officers
until finally one of them said "Uh yes sir we know that - but what
country are we jumping into?"

[Michael Emrys]

I don't know if anybody in WWII went as far as producing the kind of
detailed permanent 3-D scale model the the British made before the
Battle of Messines (Archaeology magazine, Sept/Oct '14). I have read
of 'sand tables' being used in WW II. I don't know if they were used
at a small unit tactical level...

I recall seeing photos of a mockup prepared for the Bruneval raid that
was very detailed. So I imagine that before important operations where
time and the necessary intelligence was available for extensive
preparations, such models were made, at least by the Western Allies. I
don't have much information of such models being made either by the Axis
powers or the Soviets.

Michael

[Joe Osman]

Post by David Wilma
I just read an article by Susan Schulten in the New Republic
about the maps drawn by Richard Edes Harrison for Fortune
magazine. But these were for popular consumption and not
too useful for navigation and fire control. Who did the best
maps and how?

The British were the most technically proficient at making maps.
The science of photogrammetry was used to make maps from stereo
photographs using stereoautographs. The best one was the Wild
Autograph, which was made in Switzerland. The British only had
one in country when the war started so they set up a dummy
company in Sweden to purchase a couple more then flew them from
Sweden in bombers. They were even used to make 3-d models of camps
and buildings by British modelers.
Polarization-based vectographs were also made and used either to
view in the field or to be projected for a group.
The American Coast and Geodetic Survey also did this. They
developed a 9 lens camera for the purpose.


Joe