Discussion:
mountain trrops
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Chris Allen
2015-05-04 14:43:15 UTC
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I saw program once about the trouble the allies had capturiing Mt Casino
in southern Italy. The general impression was that the allies were not
well organised.
I'm curious about one particular point regarding the use of "Mountain
Troops. As I recall,
mountin troops were used at the start & made good progress
they were withdrawn for some odd reason, before "finishing the job"
there followed many month's of "stale mate"
mountain troops were used again at the finish, sucessfully.

The program ipmlied allied mountain troops could have captured the abbey
in just a few weeks, if they had not been withdrawn so early.

My question is
What special qualities do Moantain Troops have, that "low landers" do not?
John Dallman
2015-05-04 15:06:19 UTC
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What special qualities do Mountain Troops have, that "low landers"
do not?
More training in climbing, equipment that's easier to carry up mountains,
and tactical training for fighting in small groups. They often have ski
training as well, but that wouldn't have been applicable at Monte Casino.


John
Bill Shatzer
2015-05-04 17:29:52 UTC
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Post by John Dallman
What special qualities do Mountain Troops have, that "low landers"
do not?
More training in climbing, equipment that's easier to carry up mountains,
and tactical training for fighting in small groups. They often have ski
training as well, but that wouldn't have been applicable at Monte Casino.
The 10th Mountain Division had copious numbers of mules on its TO&E -
some 5,000 at a time when horses and mules were almost entirely absent
from "regular" US Army units.
john szalay
2015-05-04 20:15:10 UTC
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Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by John Dallman
What special qualities do Mountain Troops have, that "low landers"
do not?
More training in climbing, equipment that's easier to carry up
mountains, and tactical training for fighting in small groups. They
often have ski training as well, but that wouldn't have been
applicable at Monte Casino.
The 10th Mountain Division had copious numbers of mules on its TO&E -
some 5,000 at a time when horses and mules were almost entirely absent
from "regular" US Army units.
Frontline Mule Skinners, Italy (3rd Div)
Date taken: December 1943
Photographer: George Rodger

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/6c40d470f5702d16.html

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/6c3fbee95b138586.html

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/107ec5504d50ca2b.html
Rich Rostrom
2015-05-04 20:06:19 UTC
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Post by Chris Allen
I'm curious about one particular point regarding the
use of "Mountain Troops. As I recall, mountain
troops were used at the start & made good progress
they were withdrawn for some odd reason, before
"finishing the job". there followed many months of
"stale mate". mountain troops were used again at the
finish, sucessfully.
I have not heard of any mountain troops being present
for the initial assaults in the Cassino sector. Neither
the U.S. nor Britain had such troops in the area in
November 1943, AFAIK, and the initial assault made
very little progress in the mountains.

In late January 1944, US II Corps attacked Cassino,
capturing several positions but not the mountain
crowned by the abbey. At the same time, the French
Expeditionary Corps attacked further north, also
taking several positions; the FEC included Moroccan
and Algerian troops, some of whom were expert mountaineers.

The attack gained some ground in the north, but failed
to take Mount Cassino, was repelled with heavy losses
in the Liri Valley, and made limited progress across
the lower Garigliano river to the south and west, down
to the coast.
Post by Chris Allen
The program ipmlied allied mountain troops could
have captured the abbey in just a few weeks, if they
had not been withdrawn so early.
If the program meant the FEC - they didn't go into
action until January, 2 1/2 months into the battle.

The FEC was withdrawn for various reasons - rest,
re-equipping, replacing losses. The Cassino attack
had been its first major action, and recovery time
was needed. Plus they were adding lots of new troops
and equipment.

And also, the Allies needed to reorganize their
front. British 10 Corps was at the far left, on
the coast, then US II Corps, then the FEC.

US II Corps was replaced by Indian and New Zealand
troops. They attacked in March; the Indians got
halfway up Mount Cassino before they were driven
back; the Kiwis took the town and railroad station.

After this, the Allies reorganized again. US II Corps
was deployed on the far left, then the FEC (with two
new divisions), then Canadian I Corps, British 13
Corps, the new Polish II Corps, and British 10 Corps.

There was also some shuffling of divisions.
Post by Chris Allen
My question is What special qualities do Mountain
Troops have, that "low landers" do not?
They are trained and equipped for ascending and
descending in mountainous terrain. Their equipment
includes gear for rock-climbing, such as ropes,
pitons, clamps, cleats or crampons, and harnesses;
lightweight arms that a soldier can still carry when
conducting such movements; and cold-weather clothing
for operations at high altitude, where there is snow
on the ground, even in summer.

If the opposition are not also mountain troops, the
mountain troops may be able to advance unopposed
through areas the opposition assumes are impassable.

There is an anecdote from the final Allied offensive
in the Cassino sector - not at Cassino, but in the
Monti Aurunci, on the SW side of the Liri valley,
across from Cassino. The attack in that area was made
by the French Expeditionary Corp, spearheaded by the
Moroccan 4th Mountain Division. The attackers
surprised one German commander in his HQ, and he
ejaculated "You can't be here! It is impossible to
ascend those cliffs!"
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Michele
2015-05-05 14:41:33 UTC
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Post by Rich Rostrom
They are trained and equipped for ascending and
descending in mountainous terrain. Their equipment
includes gear for rock-climbing, such as ropes,
pitons, clamps, cleats or crampons, and harnesses;
lightweight arms that a soldier can still carry when
conducting such movements; and cold-weather clothing
for operations at high altitude, where there is snow
on the ground, even in summer.
All of that is correct, but there are a few more considerations to add.

1. Coming from a home environment that is mountainous does help a lot.
Regardless of the military training that the soldiers may receive once
in uniform, they have lifetime experience. That was the case with the
Italian Alpini divisions and with some of the mountain infantry
divisions. It was the case with some of the French colonial troops
mentioned above, especially the Moroccans. It was the case with a couple
of Allied units deployed in Italy at this time and not already
mentioned, and those are the 3 Dywizja Strzelców Karpackich, the Polish
Carpathian Division, and of course the Gurkhas.

2. Specialized armaments are not limited to individual weapons. The
Italian 75mm M18 mountain gun was inferior to many other guns in the
same caliber; but it could be disassembled in pieces that could be
carried by mules or - gosh - even by artillerymen. Having a more
powerful, long-barrelled 75mm gun isn't very useful if you're in a
terrain where you can't deploy where it matters. There were ligthweight
mortars, etc.

3. The command structure and TO&E of dedicated mountain units also
tended to be less top-heavy. because of the difficult terrain, difficult
communications, and often smaller-sized operations, a mountain regiment
ideally needed to be more independent than an ordinary infantry
regiment, and that applied to battalions to some extent. Thus these
units had - at least in theory, or let's say that they would have needed
- officers not lacking in initiative, better lower-echelon C3I
(including equipment such as radios), and specialized sub-units (say a
mountain engineer platoon) attached at lower echelons.

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