Discussion:
Hirohito--No Benign, Passive Figurehead
(too old to reply)
WJHopwood
2014-10-07 04:19:37 UTC
Permalink
In a recent New York Times article, Herbert P. Bix,
emeritus professor of history and sociology at
Binghamton University and author of "Hirohito
and the Making of Modern Japan," wrote that a
12,000-page. 61 Volume "official" biography of
Emperor Hirohito was soon to be "unveiled" in
Japan, that the monumental work had been in
progress since 1990, and that in August, he
(Bix) had been asked by a Japanese newspaper
for comments about it for a story they were
doing.

Specifically, Bix had been asked for his views
about "the emperor's perspective with regard
to Japan's conflict with China, it's decision to
attack the United States and Great Britain, the
trial of war criminals, the atomic bombs used
against japan, and the U.S. occupation of
postwar Japan. But there was catch. Bix's
comments could not contain anything about
Hirohito's direct "role and responsibility in
World War II" as that was "strictly outside the
scope of the newspaper's reporting." As Bix
put it: "Having devoted years of my life to
examining precisely this topic, I politely
refused."

Bix notes that at a time when such a
monumental official biography of Hirohito
as this one was about to be released, there
was no better occasion than now for
reflection about a war which took 20 million
Asian lives (3 million of them Japanese), and
over 100,000 citizens of the Western Allied
nations, mostly American and British. The
Japanese, he notes, have "dodged important
questions about events before, during, and
after the war." and instead have created a new
history which "perpetuates the false but
persistent image....of (Hirohito as) a benign
passive figurehead." As he notes, "...from the
start of his rule in 1926, he was a "dynamic,
activist and conflicted monarch who operated
within a complex system of irresponsibility.
Hirohito, according to Bix, "was never a puppet...
he sanctioned the full-scale invasion of China
in 1937... exercised close control of the use of
chemical weapons in China, and sanctioned the
attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. "From what I've
read," says Bix, the "new history suffers from
serious omissions."

Bix goes on to say that despite its shortcomings,
the biography is not without merit...it collected
primary materials, some of which had not been
known to exist. It also fleshed out Hirohito's
"role as chief priest of the state religion." And it
confirmed Hirohito's "bull-headadness in delaying
surrender when defeat (in WWII) was inevitable."

"Why does all this matter 70 years since the end
of the war? asks Bix. He answers his own question.
Because: "Japan's government has never engaged
in full-scale reckoning of its wartime conduct--a
result of a deliberate choice--abetted by Japan's
educational system, and (its) mass media---with
notable exceptions---to overlook and distort
issues of accountability."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/30/opinion/hirohito-string-puller-not-puppet.html?emc=edit_tnt_20140929&nlid=65401455&tntemail0=y

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-08 04:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
persistent image....of (Hirohito as) a benign
passive figurehead." As he notes, "...from the
start of his rule in 1926, he was a "dynamic,
activist and conflicted monarch who operated
within a complex system of irresponsibility.
Hirohito, according to Bix, "was never a puppet...
he sanctioned the full-scale invasion of China
in 1937... exercised close control of the use of
chemical weapons in China, and sanctioned the
attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. "From what I've
read," says Bix, the "new history suffers from
serious omissions."
The Emperor "sanctioned" every action taken by the Imperial Japanese,
whether he agreed or not; the Council presented unanimous decisions for
his approval. He signed, whether he agreed or not.

The only times he is known to take direct action were to force the
removal of the Tanaka Cabinet (who failed to rein in the Kwangtung
Army), threatened to personally lead troops against the 2/36/36 rebels
when the military refused to do so, and made his opinion known to
accept the surrender and made known that the conditions of the Potsdam
Declaration were acceptable as is.

As for China, it turns out that the Army had one of Prince Mikasa's
speeches to the Diet stricken from the record. In it, Mikasa stated
that the actions of the Army in China were unpardonable, and if his
brother knew about them, he would surely have forced the resignation of
the Army leaders. The speech wasn't rediscovered until 1994.
Post by WJHopwood
Bix goes on to say that despite its shortcomings,
the biography is not without merit...it collected
primary materials, some of which had not been
known to exist. It also fleshed out Hirohito's
"role as chief priest of the state religion." And it
confirmed Hirohito's "bull-headadness in delaying
surrender when defeat (in WWII) was inevitable."
Well, that's kinda incorrect; once Tojo was forced to quit, he appointed
successively more dovish PMs. Indeed, Suzuki had once survived an
attempted assassination attempt because of his known pacifist tendencies.
He did not try to enlist Stalin's help; that was a Hirota initiative, and
nothing really ever was offered the Soviets; were he an active leader,
surely there would have been some concrete offer made to the Russians. Yet
Lee, in _Marching Orders_, notes that Sato offered to resign as ambassador
because Japan never sent him instructions on what to offer.

The Bix book sounds like a rehash of the earlier Bergamini book, _The Imperial
Conspiracy_.

Here's something from from some time ago



ources: Cook & Cook, _Japan at War: An Oral History_
Ienaga, _The Pacific War; 1931-1945_
Gilbert, _The Second World War_
Toland, _The Rising Sun_
Chamberlain, _Japanese Things_

Why wasn't the Emperor tried as a war criminal?

He wasn't tried for two reasons; first, there is no evidence that he
instigated the war against the US. He is known to have approved the war
plans, but is also described as having an awful lot of misgivings about
the potential conflict. He certainly had fewer misgivings about the war
in China, but that might merely mean he had a better grasp of Japan's
position in the event it took on the US. Too, he is and was known to
have made the decision to accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration,
when formally approached for a decision (in Europe, several local German
commanders were let off with very light sentences, or let off free,
for their role in surrendering large amounts of the German forces left
to fight, especially in Italy. This, despite incontrovertible evidence
that they had ordered executions of civilians and US POWs.) Second,
and perhaps more important, MacArthur felt Hirohito was necessary, or at
least desirable, to put together the reconstructed Japan. Hirohito for
his part was extremely coopertive with the occupying American forces
from the very beginning, and gave the US no trouble of any sort, thus
re-enforcing the view that he was necessary for the smooth running of
the country. It should be noted that the decision NOT to try Hirohito
was not popular among the Allies at the time, and a significant portion
of Japanese would have liked to have seen this as well.

Was he a war criminal?

It is sometimes argued that, trial or no, Hirohito was a war criminal,
and should have been tried as such. My PERSONAL opinion is that he should
have been tried; whether he actually WAS a war criminal or not, I have no
clear feeling. Given the destruction of many Japanese documents prior
to the US occupation, and the suicides of many top leaders at the time
of surrender, it is doubtful he could have been convicted, especially as
most top surviving officials would have felt honor-bound to accept blame.

Opinions on the Emperor's role range from "He was simply a puppet anyway"
(discussed below) to "He was the criminal mastermind behind all of
Japan's actions at the time." There are several books that take direct
aim at Hirohito as a war criminal and lay much, if not all, the blame
for Japan's actions directly at his feet. There are a couple reasons
for this. First, Japan's actions are routinely compared with those of
her wartime ally, Nazi Germany. In Germany it is very easy to identify
a single force (Hitler, and the Nazi party) as instigating most of the
warlike actions of regime. In Japan, no one was in power over the time
span to be similarly identified, save for the Emperor; Japanese Cabinets
came and went at an astonishing (to outsiders) speed. Thus, Hirohito is
the one constant authority figure in Japan from 1926 onward, and most of
the objectionable Japanese actions began around 1927-28. He is there-
fore an easy target. Second, and perhaps more compelling, Hirohito's
personal approval is on all important documents of the era, including
that which created the infamous Unit 731, that which launched Japan into
its Chinese quagmire, and that which embroiled it in the war with the
US. It must be remembered that all decisions were ostensibly made by the
Japanese Imperial Council: they reached an agreement, and when unanimity
was achieved, the Emperor was approached for his approval. The Emperor
may thus seen as a rubber stamp in this regard. That many important
documents were destroyed at the end of the war which may have implicated
(or completely exonerated) Hirohito is undeniable. This merely means
that the truth will remain a matter of conjecture, another unsettled
aspect of Japan's role in the war.

Wouldn't trying Hirohito as a war criminal have made the Japanese
hate the US forever?

It is sometimes argued that the reason Hirohito wasn't tried as a war
criminal is that the US was afraid to turn the Japanese people against
us. This seems to fly in the face of several realities. First, the
Japanese had been turned against the US for quite a while. One or two
more actions weren't going to make much difference as long as the US was
feeding a people that had been close to starving (daily caloric intake had
fallen below 1500/day) for a while. Second, there appears to be a loss of
memory about the Emperor's status both post-Meiji and during the war. BF
Chamberlain, in 1904, tries to describe to a friend how the Japanese
felt about the Emperor in a general sense. The friend had asked "Is the
Emperor popular?" Chamberlain's response was to the effect of "no". He
was simply a force that existed, revered in a detached way, perhaps with
photographs at every house, but not "popular"; no one discussed him,
his thoughts, etc. They simply descended from on high. He was almost
a force of nature, in that regard. Too, there is ample evidence that
Hirohito had cause to fear for his personal status as early as 1926, when
he assumed the throne. There were fears of an Army uprising against him
early in his reign. In 1945, Suzuki expressed direct fears that a popular
revolt would remove him from power, if Japan did not accept Allied terms
of surrender immediately. There was an abortive attempt to prevent the
Emporer's surrender speech, and to replace him as acting Emporer with
his brother, Mikasa (the same Mikasa who had had a speech to Parliament
struck from the records in 1944, as being too anti-military.) There is
little doubt that the US knew all, or much of, this at the time. That the
Imperial Council tried to get a concession from the US, guaranteeing the
status of the Emperor doesn't change this; the Imperial Council had its
own agenda, and not necessarily the good of the Japanese people in mind.

Wasn't he just a puppet anyway?

No. While for the most part Hirohito stayed out of the day-to-day
affairs of state, save for giving Imperial fiat to all the decisions
of the governing council, he could and did exert his will when he felt
strongly about something. As examples, he forced the resignation of the
Tanaka cabinet in 1929 when they failed to discipline the increasingly
insubordinate Kwangtung Army, and he forced the Imperial Army to arrest
the insubordinate soldiers in the 2/26/36 incident, where elements of
the Imperial Army (mostly a cadre of junior officers) took over parts of
downtown Tokyo, killed several government officials and made attempts
on the lives of others, etc. The heads of the armed forces refused
(or more likely, were simply too paralyzed) to take action themselves.
The Emperor ordered the arrests, trials, and subsequent executions of the
rebels, and refused to honor them with his presence at their deaths. (It
should be noted that the Army then took the opportunity to round up a
few others and have them executed for this action, though there was never
any evidence those individuals were involved.) He is also known to be a
driving force behind the turnover of cabinets late in the war, from Tojo
to Koisio to Suzuki, each a successively more pacifist cabinet. All this
can be seen as Hirohito a) taking direct action to curtail fanaticism
or b) taking direct action to curtail threats to his rule. One can make
a case for either. (And in fact, many have.)

Mike
Alan Meyer
2014-10-10 18:33:17 UTC
Permalink
That was a very thorough and helpful analysis. Thanks.

There are many moral dilemmas in politics and even more so in war. It
often happens that all possible courses of action have both powerfully
positive and powerfully negative arguments regarding them - some
ethical, some military, some political. The leaders have to make
difficult choices where no clear calculus exists for working out the
preponderance of value on one side or the other.

Two of the obvious cases of this from the American side in the Pacific
war were the decision to use atomic bombs and the decision not to try
the Emperor. My personal opinion, always open to challenge, is that the
American leadership made the right choice in both cases.

I think one thing is clear. Even if the decisions made were not the
best ones, the arguments for those decisions were pretty strong. I
think the decisions were made in good faith and with due consideration
for the welfare people of the United States, China, Japan, and other
countries. They were NOT like the decisions of Hitler or Tojo who cared
nothing for the fate of the people affected and only for what they
conceived to be the world historical destiny of their race and their
empires.

I have seen some conspiracy theories about the U.S. decision not to try
Hirohito and I think they're way off base.

Alan
WJHopwood
2014-10-12 18:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Meyer
There are many moral dilemmas in politics and even
more so in war.... some ethical, some military, some
political. The leaders have to make difficult choices
where no clear calculus exists for working out the
preponderance of value on one side or the other...
.
Two of the obvious cases of this from the American
side...were the decision to use atomic bombs and the
decision not to try the Emperor. My personal.opinion
...is that the American leadership made the right choice
in both cases...
I agree with the above observations. But I would like to
point out that sometimes "clear calculus" DOES exist for
making a particular decision which may not be evident
at the time, or for long thereafter, until long-classfied
information becomes public. One reason to keep things
quiet ia to protect intelligence sources and/or methods
used in obtaining information which led to the decision
itself.

An example would be the Dept. of Defense eight-volume
series titled "The 'Magic' Background of Pearl Harbor,"
released in 1977 which told of the interception and
code-breaking of Japanese messages which contained
information with regard to subversive activities by
residents of Japanese ancestry in the U.S. prior to
Pearl Harbor. It was because of such information
that shortly after Pearl Harbor FDR issued Executive
Order 9066 which authorized the relocation of
persons of Japanese ancestry away from West Coast
military areas.

But there is a downside in keeping information
classified for so long. With little information available
on why a matter was decided as it was, a public
controversy may develop years later over whether the
decision was right or wrong. Furthermore, over time,
many of the supporting facts may have become lost,
be misrepresented, or even suppressed because of
generational changes in ideological perspectives
between the time and context in which decisions
were made and an evaluation thereof as long as half
a century later.

The Japanese relocation from the West Coast is a case
in point. In 1988, the U.S. Congress passed
PL100-383 which authorized payment of $20,000 to
resident Japanese nationals who had been legally
interned during WWII under the terms of Alien Enemy
Act of 1796. That Act, still in effect, provides that
enemy aliens are subject to "summary arrest,
internment, and deportation whenever a declared war
exists." The 1988 law, however, says that the Jspanese
nationals were interned solely because of their "race,"
which clearly misrepresents the reason they were
interned, as outlined in the Alien Enemy Act.

There was no significant public objection when the
relocation of persons of Japanese ancestry or the
internment of Japanese nationals was done shortly
after Pearl Harbor. Nor when the Constitutionality
of the decision was upheld by the U.S. Supreme
Court two years later. As Justice Black wrote in
Korematsu v. U.S., (1944)
"There was evidence of disloyalty on the part
of some, the military authorities considered that the
need for action was great,and time was short. We
cannot -- by availing ourselves of the calm perspective
of hindsight--now say that these actions were
unjustified."

True then, true now.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-13 05:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Alan Meyer
There are many moral dilemmas in politics and even
more so in war.... some ethical, some military, some
political. The leaders have to make difficult choices
where no clear calculus exists for working out the
preponderance of value on one side or the other...
.
An example would be the Dept. of Defense eight-volume
series titled "The 'Magic' Background of Pearl Harbor,"
released in 1977 which told of the interception and
code-breaking of Japanese messages which contained
information with regard to subversive activities by
residents of Japanese ancestry in the U.S. prior to
Pearl Harbor. It was because of such information
that shortly after Pearl Harbor FDR issued Executive
Order 9066 which authorized the relocation of
persons of Japanese ancestry away from West Coast
military areas.
But there is a downside in keeping information
classified for so long. With little information available
Which is utter bullshit, considering that the breaking of the codes was
made public right after the war, yet no record of any actual subversion
by Japanese-Americans was disclosed.
Post by WJHopwood
decision was right or wrong. Furthermore, over time,
many of the supporting facts may have become lost,
be misrepresented, or even suppressed because of
Or didn't exist.
Post by WJHopwood
The Japanese relocation from the West Coast is a case
in point. In 1988, the U.S. Congress passed
PL100-383 which authorized payment of $20,000 to
resident Japanese nationals who had been legally
Actually, it was paid to US citizens as well.

Remainder of racist rant elided.
Post by WJHopwood
True then, true now.
You mean Constitutional rights for Americans? Not if you had your way.

Mike
Rich Rostrom
2014-10-13 20:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Which is utter bullshit, considering that the breaking of the codes was
made public right after the war, yet no record of any actual subversion
by Japanese-Americans was disclosed.
I believe that is not _absolutely_ true. There
were references in the MAGIC decrypts to the
Tachibana spy ring and some other minor Japanese
spy activity before Pearl Harbor, in which a very
small number of Japanese-Americans had been
involved.

All these activities had already been shut down, and
all Japanese-American accomplices had already been
arrested. Thus the MAGIC decrypts did not reveal any
previously unknown threat, nor indicate any need for
action.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-14 05:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Which is utter bullshit, considering that the breaking of the codes was
made public right after the war, yet no record of any actual subversion
by Japanese-Americans was disclosed.
I believe that is not _absolutely_ true. There
were references in the MAGIC decrypts to the
Tachibana spy ring and some other minor Japanese
spy activity before Pearl Harbor, in which a very
small number of Japanese-Americans had been
involved.
The Japanese spy ring on Hawaii was run by an Imperial Navy officer, and
was known of outside of MAGIC.
Post by Rich Rostrom
All these activities had already been shut down, and
all Japanese-American accomplices had already been
arrested. Thus the MAGIC decrypts did not reveal any
previously unknown threat, nor indicate any need for
action.
Right. The Tachibana ring was also led by a Japanese naval commander, and
in fact, they recruited whites as well. It was also broken up by the FBI.

Magic didn't reveal anything that wasn't already known about spy rings
in the US.

Probably why nobody was ever prosecuted using Magic-gathered data, even
after its existence was made public.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-10-13 23:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
....Dept. of Defense..."The 'Magic' Background of
Pearl Harbor," released in 1977....told of the...
code-breaking of Japanese messages....because
of such information...FDR issued Executive Order
9066 which authorized the relocation of persons of
Japanese ancestry away from West Coast
military areas.
Which is utter bullshit, considering that the breaking of
the codes was made public right after the war, yet no
record of any actual subversion
The fact that Japanese coded messages had been
"broken" was hardly a secret after the war, but what
was in those messages still was. They were not
made public for over 30 years except for a relatively
few selected messages which had been declassified
and made available in 1945 to the Joint Congressional
Committee to Investigate the Attack on Pearl
Harbor. Those were messages primarily concerned
with the pre-Pearl Harbor Hull/Nomura negotiations.
Not Japanese subversion in rhe U.S. which was most
evident in messages still classified, as well as and ONI
and MID reports. It was not until 1977 that the vast
bulk of the intercepts were declassified and made
public by DOJ in its 8-volume series, "The 'MAGIC'
Background of Pearl Harbor."
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
In 1988, the U.S. Congress passed PL100-383
which authorized payment of $20,000 to resident
Japanese nationals....
Actually, it was paid to US citizens as well.
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
Those born in the U.S. before 1924 were 17 or older
at the time of Pearl Harbor and were also subjects of
Japan.under Japanese law.
Of course they could easily have renounced their
Japanese citizenship if they had wanted to, but few did.
Thousands of them had been sent to Japan by their
parents to be educated in their formative years of age.
The males were subject to military service in Japan
at a certain age and they retained reserve status in the
Japanese military even if and when they returned to the
U.S. It has been estimated by a reliable source that about
7000 Japanese-Americans were in the Japanese armed
forces at the time of Pearl Harbor and fought against the
U.S. in WWII. After Japan surrendered, one of the Japanese
Americans was a member of the Japanese delegation which
flew from Japan to Manila to discuss plans for the surrender
ceremony with MacArthur's delegates.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
True then, true now.
You mean Constitutional rights for Americans?
Americans, yes. Enemy aliens don't have Constitutional
rights.

Here is an interesting website which covers this subject
in detail and has lots of supporting information.:

http://www.internmentarchives.com/

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-14 03:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
....Dept. of Defense..."The 'Magic' Background of
Pearl Harbor," released in 1977....told of the...
code-breaking of Japanese messages....because
of such information...FDR issued Executive Order
9066 which authorized the relocation of persons of
Japanese ancestry away from West Coast
military areas.
Which is utter bullshit, considering that the breaking of
the codes was made public right after the war, yet no
record of any actual subversion
The fact that Japanese coded messages had been
"broken" was hardly a secret after the war, but what
And of course not a single US citisen of Japanese descent (or Japanese
national, for that matter) was prosecuted due to efforts of MAGIC. It
uncovered not a single spy ring. Zero.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
In 1988, the U.S. Congress passed PL100-383
which authorized payment of $20,000 to resident
Japanese nationals....
Actually, it was paid to US citizens as well.
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
Which, of course, are AMERICAN citizens, which for racial reasons you seem
to deny.

They were made in partial compensation for property lost in a wartime
mistake.
Post by WJHopwood
Those born in the U.S. before 1924 were 17 or older
at the time of Pearl Harbor and were also subjects of
Japan.under Japanese law.
As were American-born German and Italians.

But no, you are not correct. The law stated that they COULD be Japanese
citizens, but in order to be such, they needed to be registered in the
official Koseki.
Post by WJHopwood
Of course they could easily have renounced their
Many did. You have been corrected on that previously.
Post by WJHopwood
Japanese citizenship if they had wanted to, but few did.
"data from a census conducted under the auspices of the Japanese
government indicated that by 1930 only 47 percent of Nisei in California
held dual citizenship.[5] After 1930, fewer and fewer parents declared
Japanese citizenship for their children, and Nisei born before 1924
continued to renounce their Japanese citizenship. On the eve of World
War II approximately 70 percent of Nisei retained U.S. citizenship alone."

http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Dual_citizenship/

Original references
Edward K. Strong, The Second-Generation Japanese Problem (Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1934), 142.
Strong, The Second-Generation Japanese Problem, 142-43; Philip M. Glick, Memorandum to Dillon S. Myer, "Domicil"; and McWilliams, "Dual Citizenship," 231-233.

Again, Mr Hopwood, not a single spy ring was broken up by Magic. Not a single
disloyal US citizen was prosecuted on the basis of evidence in the
interceptions. All prosecutions were made on the basis of good old fashioned
police work, by intelligence professionals.

There is no comparison the US citizens of Japanese descent and the actions
of Hirohito pre-, during, or post-war.

The only reason to bring it in, as you did, is race. But that would be
racist, wouldn't it?

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-10-14 22:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
The fact that Japanese coded messages had
been "broken" was hardly a secret
after the war....
And of course not a single US citisen of Japanese
descent (or Japanese national, for that matter) was
prosecuted due to efforts of MAGIC...
Of course there wasn't. Any prosecution would hace
required exposure of the MAGIC intercept program by
which the espionage information was being obtained.
Our security people were smarter than that.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
It uncovered not a single spy ring. Zero.
Yes it did. For instance, this intercept in which the Los
Angeles consul actually bragged about their espionage
efforts involving Japanese-Americans in a messages to
Tokyo. Here's an excerpt from it.
Message #067 of May9, 1941--Los Angeles
Consulate (Nakauchi) to Tokyo (Gaimudaijin):
".....With regard to airplane manufacturing plants
and other military establishments...We have already
established contacts with absolutely reliable Japanese in
the San Pedro and San Diego area, who will keep a close
watch on all shipments of airplanes and other war
materials, and report the amounts and destinations of
such shipments.
....We shall maintain connection with our second
generations [Nisei] who are at present in the (U.S.) Army,
to keep us informed of various developments in the Army.
We also have connections with our second generations
working in airplane plants for intelligence purposes.."
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
In 1988, the U.S. Congress passed PL100-383
which authorized payment of $20,000 to resident
Japanese nationals....
Actually, it was paid to US citizens as well.
....AMERICAN citizens, which for racial reasons you seem
to deny....in partial compensation for property lost in a
wartime...
It wasn't for losses. It was purely a gift from U.S. taxpayers.
Payment for losses had already been made 40 years earlier
under the Japanese American Evacuation Claims Act. Over
26,568 claims were filed and $37,000,000 paid by the U.S.
government.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
But no, you are not correct. The law stated that they COULD
be Japanese citizens, but in order to be such, they needed to
be registered in the official Koseki.
According to retired Professor John J. Stephan, who has
a PH.d in Japanese history, lived years in Japan, and taught
modern Japanese history at the University of Hawaii. In his
book "Hawaii Under the Rising Sun" he wrote:
"Until 1924, Tokyo regarded all children born of
Japanese fathers in any part of the world as Japanese
citizens according to the principal of jus sanguinis...(they)
could nullify their (Japanese) citizenship by submitting formal
notification .to the home minister.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Many did....
Not really. Professor Stephan notes that by Pearl Harbor only
8% of the dual-citizen Japanese born before 1924 in Hawaii
had renounced their U.S. citizenship. Why would it have
been any different in mainland USA?
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
"data from a census conducted under the auspices of the Japanese
government indicated that by 1930 only 47 percent of Nisei in California
held dual citizenship..[5] After 1930, fewer and fewer parents declared
Japanese citizenship for their children, and Nisei born before 1924
continued to renounce their Japanese citizenship. On the eve of World
War II approximately 70 percent of Nisei retained U.S. citizenship alone."
Well, if 70% retained, that means 30% renounced their U.S.
citizenship.Nothing to brag about. Furthermore, that doesn't
agree with messages intercepted by MAGIC.
In Message #40 on April 19, 1941Tokyo sent instructions to
the San Francisco consul to send information from the U.S. 1940
census which showed the number of Japanese-Americans holding
single (U.S.) citizenship and the number who held dual-citizenship
status in San Francisco, and to relay the same instructions to the
Japanese consuls in the following other U.S. cities: Loa Angeles,
Portland (Oregon), Seattle, New York, Chicago, and New Orleans.
MAGIC was able to intercept the responses from
consulates in New York, Portland, Chicago, and also from the
Vancouver consulate in Canada which had obviously received
the same instructions as had the others. All of these consulates
reported dual-citizenship status of over 40% of the
American-born.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-15 05:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
The fact that Japanese coded messages had
been "broken" was hardly a secret
after the war....
And of course not a single US citisen of Japanese
descent (or Japanese national, for that matter) was
prosecuted due to efforts of MAGIC...
Of course there wasn't. Any prosecution would hace
required exposure of the MAGIC intercept program by
which the espionage information was being obtained.
You mean that after
Post by WJHopwood
Our security people were smarter than that.
Apparently not; the breaking of the codes was national news after the
surrender of Japan.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
It uncovered not a single spy ring. Zero.
Yes it did. For instance, this intercept in which the Los
It did not. All spy rings were detected by the more mundane processes
of police/FBI work, and were broken up accordinginly.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Actually, it was paid to US citizens as well.
....AMERICAN citizens, which for racial reasons you seem
to deny....in partial compensation for property lost in a
wartime...
It wasn't for losses.
Reagan disagreed with you.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
But no, you are not correct. The law stated that they COULD
be Japanese citizens, but in order to be such, they needed to
be registered in the official Koseki.
According to retired Professor John J. Stephan, who has
a PH.d in Japanese history, lived years in Japan, and taught
modern Japanese history at the University of Hawaii. In his
"Until 1924, Tokyo regarded all children born of
Japanese fathers in any part of the world as Japanese
citizens according to the principal of jus sanguinis...(they)
could nullify their (Japanese) citizenship by submitting formal
notification .to the home minister.
I suspect that retired Professor John J. Stephan, who has a PhD in Japanese
history, during his years in Japan, learned of the existence of the Koseki
and is well aware that one must be registered therein in order to be
a Japanese citien.

That is the way it was before WWI, between the wars, during the war, and
continues until today.

Perhaps your readings of his works are incomplete, or he dumbed down his
statements. However, you were given a reference by BF Chamberlain (who was
a professor of Japanese in Japan) who gives some details on the Koseki
system. His book, _Japanese Things_, was written in 1905.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Many did....
Not really.
Yes, really. You have been given data to that effect. Your speculation
seems self-serving, and incomplete. Well, not so much "incomplete" as
"dead wrong in public"

BTW
"That a very great many of the Nisei have taken legal steps through the
Japanese Consulate and the Government of Japan to officially divest
themselves of Japanese citizenship (dual citizenship) , even though
by so doing they become legally dead in the eye of the Japanese law,
and are no longer eligible to inherit any property which they or their
family may have held in Japan."

That from the Ringle memo.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
"data from a census conducted under the auspices of the Japanese
government indicated that by 1930 only 47 percent of Nisei in California
held dual citizenship..[5] After 1930, fewer and fewer parents declared
Japanese citizenship for their children, and Nisei born before 1924
continued to renounce their Japanese citizenship. On the eve of World
War II approximately 70 percent of Nisei retained U.S. citizenship alone."
Well, if 70% retained, that means 30% renounced their U.S.
citizenship.
You serisously cannot be that dense; how does the statement that "70%
percent of Nisei retained U.S. citizenship alone." mean the remaining
30% had renounced their US citizenship? Hint: it does not. It means that
70% of the nisei were US citizens, not dual US-anything-else citizens

That was not particularly complicated. Are all your views based on such
a blatant inability read simple English sentences?

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-10-15 23:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
......Any prosecution would have required
exposure of the MAGIC intercept program
by which the espionage information was
being obtained. Our security people were
smarter than that.
Apparently not; the breaking of the codes was
national news after the surrender of Japan.
Just the breaking. Little of the content therein or the
method being used was public knowledge. The texts
were kept highly classified until the 1970s.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
....All spy rings were detected by the more mundane
processes of police/FBI work, and were broken up
accordinginly.
Not according to David Lowman, a career
intelligence officer and Special Assistant to the
Director, National Security Agency, who oversaw the
declassification of WWII documents in thr 1970's. He
had this to say about the role of the FBI with regard to
subversive activity during WWII:
"The FBIs intelligence reports on the internal
threat to the U.S. from Japanese subversive activities
consisted almost entirely of what the ONI (Office of
Naval Intelligence) told them. The combination of being
new in the counterintelligence world and not having
access to MAGIC automatically relegated the FBI
to the status of a junior partner."
[Lowman-"MAGIC the Untold Story of U.S.
Intelligence and the Evacuation of Japanese Residents
from the West Coast During WWii".--CH 15 The FBI]
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
I suspect that retired Professor John J. Stephan, who
has a PhD in Japanese history, during his years in
Japan, learned of the existence of the Koseki> and is
well aware that one must be registered therein in
order to be a Japanese citizen....you were given a
reference by BF Chamberlain (who was...who gives
some details on the Koseki ...His book, _Japanese
Things_, was written in 1905.
Written in 1905? We are talking about 1941. Besides
anyone can give a name as reference without an accurate
quote about what that named person said. You are good
at that. How about a quote. What exactly did BF
Chamberlain say?.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
....a very great many of the Nisei have taken legal
steps...to officially divest themselves of Japanese
citizenship (dual citizenship)...
That from the Ringle memo.
in the months before Pearl Harbor, how many did and
how many didn't and when? Some of Ringle's numerical
guesses are way off when applied against confirmed
statistics. How many is a "great many?"
Ringle also said that 75% of the JAs would probably
be loyal to the U.S. That would leave 25% who were of
could be of questionable loyalty. Since there were
approximately 36,000 American-born over 17 among
those evacuated under E.O 9066, even Ringle admitted
that some 9000 of that age group of the American-born
might be of questionable loyalty. He also said that "among
the Japanese, both alien and U.S. citizen, certain individuals,
either deliberately placed by the Japanese government or
actuated by a fanatical loyalty to that country, who would
act as agents...."
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
....how does the statement that "70% percent of Nisei retained
U.S. citizenship alone." mean the remaining 30% had renounced
or their US citizenship?
It doesn;t. My error. What I had meant to say was that
if 30% were not U.S. citizens "alone," they must still have had their
Japanese citizenship. And if you apply that 30% against the evacuees
over 17 years old (the 36,000 born before 1924) that would be
very close to Ringle's estimate of 25% of the total American-born
among the population who were dual ciitizens of questionable
loyalty. Perhaps a coincidence,


WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-17 04:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
......Any prosecution would have required
exposure of the MAGIC intercept program
by which the espionage information was
being obtained. Our security people were
smarter than that.
Apparently not; the breaking of the codes was
national news after the surrender of Japan.
Just the breaking. Little of the content therein or the
method being used was public knowledge. The texts
Really, it's getting difficult to believe your repeated assertions
that you are old enogh to remember the events "of the time".

In fact, as you should know, Magic intercepts were introduced into the
Tokyo War Crime's trials. Those were very public, Mr Hopwood; at least
my older relatives remember them.

There is also a book I have recommended to you previously, Feis'
_The Road to Pearl Harbor_, which cites many Magic documents and
gives the exhibit number used to enter them into the official record.

Yet you claim "little of the content ... was public knowledge".

Typical.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
....All spy rings were detected by the more mundane
processes of police/FBI work, and were broken up
accordinginly.
Not according to David Lowman, a career
intelligence officer and Special Assistant to the
Actually, according to YOU, since you claim Magic intercepts could NOT
have been used to break up spy rings.
Post by WJHopwood
access to MAGIC automatically relegated the FBI
to the status of a junior partner."
Yet they were the ones breaking up the spy rings, along with Naval
intelligence, etc.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
I suspect that retired Professor John J. Stephan, who
has a PhD in Japanese history, during his years in
Japan, learned of the existence of the Koseki> and is
well aware that one must be registered therein in
order to be a Japanese citizen....you were given a
reference by BF Chamberlain (who was...who gives
some details on the Koseki ...His book, _Japanese
Things_, was written in 1905.
Written in 1905? We are talking about 1941. Besides
Yes. And the Koseki the modern Koseki system began in the Meiji era,
in 1872.

And Chamberlain points out the registry system, and notes that it
was one of the few ways for a foreigner to become a Japanese
citizen.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
....a very great many of the Nisei have taken legal
steps...to officially divest themselves of Japanese
citizenship (dual citizenship)...
That from the Ringle memo.
in the months before Pearl Harbor, how many did and
how many didn't and when? Some of Ringle's numerical
You claim none, or few did.

The OFFICIAL Japanese records show 70% of the nisei held US citizenship
only by
Post by WJHopwood
Ringle also said that 75% of the JAs would probably
be loyal to the U.S.
Very good.
Post by WJHopwood
That would leave 25% who were of
could be of questionable loyalty.
Right; not 25% who disloyal, but 25% potentially disloyal.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
....how does the statement that "70% percent of Nisei retained
U.S. citizenship alone." mean the remaining 30% had renounced
or their US citizenship?
It doesn;t. My error. What I had meant to say was that
if 30% were not U.S. citizens "alone," they must still have had their
Japanese citizenship.
Right; and 100% were US citizens, ostensibly entitled to protections
their government is supposed to offer all citizens, not citizens of
certain favored races.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-10-19 04:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
......Any prosecution would have required
exposure of the MAGIC intercept program
by which the espionage information was
being obtained. Our security people were
smarter than that.
Apparently not; the breaking of the codes was
national news after the surrender of Japan.
Not in detail. A few MAGIC intercepts having to do
with pre-Pearl Harbor negotiations between Hull and
Nomura were turned over to the Joint Committee to
Investigate the attack on Pearl Harbor in late 1945.
Those were not the intercepts having to do with
Japanese espionage activities.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
In fact, as you should know, Magic intercepts were
introduced into the Tokyo War Crime's trials. Those
were very public, Mr Hopwood; at least my older
relatives remember them.
Nothing new there. Your older relatives should have
told you that those were from among the same
intercepts used in 1945 in hearings of the
Joint Congressional Committee to Investigate the
Pearl Harbor Attack,
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
There is also a book I have recommended to you
previously, Feis' The Road to Pearl Harbor_, which
cites many Magic documents and gives the exhibit
number used to enter them into the official record.
Yet you claim "little of the content ... was public
knowledge".
Little of the overall content was known to the public
and nothing with regard to espionage was declassified
at the time of the Joint Congresional hearings. As for
the Feis book, which I have, you will note that the Feis
cites are from among the same Hull/Nomura group of
declassified MAGIC intercepts provided to the Joint
Congressional Committee investigating the Pearl Harbor
attack as were those used at the Tokyo War Crimes trials.
You keep using the same intercepts over and over. There
is nothing there there.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Ringle...said that 75% of the JAs would probably
be loyal to the U.S. That would leave 25% who ...could
be of questionable loyalty.
Right; not 25% who disloyal, but 25% potentially disloyal.
"Questionable?" --"potentially?" --there's no differene.
What Ringle is saying is that in his view 75% of the Japanese
Americans were loyal to the U.S. but he couldn't vouch for the
other 25% in other words, since there were close to 38,000 JA
dual citizens in the U.S. at the time of Pearl Harbor, Ringle was
not willing to vouch for the loyalty of about 10,000 of them.

WJH
Merlin Dorfman
2014-10-19 18:44:48 UTC
Permalink
etc. etc. etc.

Can we agree on a few facts as the basis for discussions,
interpretations, and opinions?
I'm using the acronym "PJA" (Persons of Japanese Ancestry) to avoid
being sidetracked into questions of who is or is not included in the term
"Japanese American."
(1) MAGIC intercepts included statements from Japanese diplomats in the US
that they had recruited local PJAs to spy for them. There were no names
or details, e.g., what information had been obtained from these spies.
(2) These intercepts were part of the basis for a decision to evacuate all
PJAs from the West Coast.
(3) No PJAs were ever prosecuted, during or after the war, for any acts of
disloyalty.
(4) The US never obtained any information, during or after the war, to
confirm that local PJAs provided or attempted to provide anything useful
to Japan, other than by the spy rings that were known to the FBI and Naval
Intelligence.
(5) Any statements about what PJAs might have done if left in place during
the war are pure speculation.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-20 04:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
etc. etc. etc.
I'm using the acronym "PJA" (Persons of Japanese Ancestry) to avoid
being sidetracked into questions of who is or is not included in the term
"Japanese American."
(1) MAGIC intercepts included statements from Japanese diplomats in the US
that they had recruited local PJAs to spy for them. There were no names
or details, e.g., what information had been obtained from these spies.
I'd agree. Note that they also referenced black and white recruits. Again,
with no names.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
(2) These intercepts were part of the basis for a decision to evacuate all
PJAs from the West Coast.
Tenuous; after all, they left the PJA (as good a term as any) in Hawaii
and even the West Coast PJA were not removed until about the time of the
Midway Battle.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
(3) No PJAs were ever prosecuted, during or after the war, for any acts of
disloyalty.
None that I know of.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
(4) The US never obtained any information, during or after the war, to
confirm that local PJAs provided or attempted to provide anything useful
to Japan, other than by the spy rings that were known to the FBI and Naval
Intelligence.
None that I know of.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
(5) Any statements about what PJAs might have done if left in place during
the war are pure speculation.
I'd speculate that there would have been a few incidents, as there were in
the PGA and PIA groups. But, as with those latter 2 groups, most of the
suspected dangerous crowd were promptly rounded up.

Mike
The Horny Goat
2014-10-26 18:38:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
I'd agree. Note that they also referenced black and white recruits. Again,
with no names.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
(2) These intercepts were part of the basis for a decision to evacuate all
PJAs from the West Coast.
Tenuous; after all, they left the PJA (as good a term as any) in Hawaii
and even the West Coast PJA were not removed until about the time of the
Midway Battle.
That's a VERY good point. Surely it must have been obvious to the
powers that be after Midway that the greatest danger was past.

One of the things I did during my vacation (which was visiting my aunt
and uncle in Nelson BC which was about a 10 hour drive from Vancouver)
was visiting the Nisei Memorial museum in New Denver, BC which was the
center of the Canadian "PJA" deportations.

http://www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep-reg/place-lieu.aspx?id=15382
http://centre.nikkeiplace.org/japanese-canadian-timeline/

What struck me was not so much the deportations - which started in Feb
1942 and continued to the end of 1942 but the forced sale of "PJA"
property - including several hundred cars most of which were of
1935-40 vintage. Most of them were sold for parts value which was
$15-35 which while I'm not familiar with the cost of a car in the
1939-40 era seems nothing short of confiscation. Numerous fishing
boats were also 'purchased' in this way as the Japanese-Canadian
community was heavily involved in the fishing business.

My question is 'is this kind of expropriation / confiscation typical
of the US internment experience?'

What was FURTHER of interest was that these people were not allowed to
return to anywhere within 100 miles of the Pacific Coast after VJ Day
(when there can't possibly have been any security interest) and were
offered financial assistance to emigrate to Japan (about half of which
returned to Canada in the 1950s).

What is particularly of note (but wasn't mentioned in the New Denver
museum) is that Canada aggressively sought Italian and German
immigrants in the 1945-55 era and Italian immigrants played a huge
role in the rebuilding of Toronto in the early 1950s.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-27 04:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
What struck me was not so much the deportations - which started in Feb
1942 and continued to the end of 1942 but the forced sale of "PJA"
property - including several hundred cars most of which were of
1935-40 vintage. Most of them were sold for parts value which was
$15-35 which while I'm not familiar with the cost of a car in the
1939-40 era seems nothing short of confiscation. Numerous fishing
boats were also 'purchased' in this way as the Japanese-Canadian
community was heavily involved in the fishing business.
My question is 'is this kind of expropriation / confiscation typical
of the US internment experience?'
Yes. People were force to either fire sale their property, or just walk
away from it. Much of the land that is now Disneyland was owned by
Japanese (well, technically nisei; issei would put the land in their
children's name, as they weren't allowed to buy land themselves) farmers.
There are still a few strawberry farms in the area, owned by nth-generation
Japanese descendents (or at least of the early 1990s; the land might have
been sold during one of the real-estate booms.) San Francisco's Japantown
was nearly wiped out, much of the farmland of San Mateo county was nisei-
owned, but taken over during the war. If they couldn't find a buyer,
the land would be forfeited due to failure to pay taxes.
Post by The Horny Goat
What was FURTHER of interest was that these people were not allowed to
return to anywhere within 100 miles of the Pacific Coast after VJ Day
(when there can't possibly have been any security interest) and were
offered financial assistance to emigrate to Japan (about half of which
returned to Canada in the 1950s).
That wasn't the case in the US.

Mike
The Horny Goat
2014-10-27 18:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by The Horny Goat
What was FURTHER of interest was that these people were not allowed to
return to anywhere within 100 miles of the Pacific Coast after VJ Day
(when there can't possibly have been any security interest) and were
offered financial assistance to emigrate to Japan (about half of which
returned to Canada in the 1950s).
That wasn't the case in the US.
I know it wasn't - that's why I was making the point that things were
much more draconian in Canada than the US.

As I say, what the security issue might be after VJ day even in the
most paranoid scenario is completely beyond me.

There was no Japanese equivalent to the semi-mythical Werewolves and
the person of the emperor had a lot to do with that.
WJHopwood
2014-10-27 18:00:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, October 26, 2014 2:38:31 PM The
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:08:01 -0400,
..(2) These intercepts were part of
the basis for a decision to evacuate
all PJAs from the West Coast.
Tenuous; after all, they left the PJA....
and even the West Coast PJA were
not removed until about the time of
the Midway Battle.
Earlier than that. Actually the removals
started 3 months before Mioway. The
first evacuations were from Bainbridge
Island near Seattle in March of 1942.
Bainbridge was a very sensitive area
because of the existence there of a
Navy radio receiving center which was
one of the reception points for the
interception of Japanese radio traffic
including the Magic messages.
From the March date the
evacuations from other areas occurred
steadily, first to temporary Assembly
Centers in 20 different locations to
await assignmet to one of 10 Relocation
Centers some of which were existing
facilities which had to be modified and
some were facilities which were built
from scratch to accommodate the
evacuees.
...Surely it must have been obvious
to the powers that be after Midway
that the greatest danger was past.
Not really. Few realized at the time how
important the victory at Midway was. It
wasn't for monrhs or more before it
became evident that Midway had been an
important turning point but it was not
until over 3 more years of terrible battles
in the Pacific before Japan finally
surrendered.
....I'm not familiar with the cost of a car
in the 1939-40 era ....
I bought a brand new 2-door Nash with all
the optional add-ons in 1940 for $950.
Nash was then considered a quality medium
car. Of course most of the "add-ons"
available today didn't exist then (air
conditioning, power steering, automatic
transmission--you name it), but what one
didn't have one doesn't miss.
The Nash did have a radio which
I was listening to while on liberty when I
heard the news of the attack on Pearl
Harbor. I was returning to base after hearing
an unexplained radio announcer break into
a program and say that all military personnel
were being order to return to their bases at
once.
Not long after I had to sell my
year-old Nash for what i could get which was
less than $500,
My question is 'is this kind of expropriation /
confiscation typical of the US internment
experience?'
It was not. Many PJAs suffered losses due
to the relocation of the population on short
notice. But so did many non-JA's. Many lost
jobs, businesses, cash, property, and personal
effects because of the upheavals and
relocations of being called to military duty or
finding employment in war production
industries during the war years.
As for the evacuation of PJAs
from the West Coast, the majority of the
ADULTS among them were enemy aliens
subject to arrest, detention, internmenrt,
and deportation under long-standing law.
Their property was not "confiscated" but
crooks often took advantage of their
situation and many had to sell their
property at fire-sale prices.
Cars could be turned over to
the custody of the Federal Bank to be held
in storage in the name of the owner,but
some evacuees chose to drive their cars to
the Relocation Centers instead. Since
production of autos had been suspended
during the war, evacuees there were able tp
sell their vehicles at market prices to the U.S
government for use during the war. More
than 1400 cars were sold that way and more
over 1900 other cars were placed in Federal
Reserve custody.
After the war Congress passed the
The Evacuation Claims Act to compensate for
such losses. A total of 26,500 claims were filed
and $37 million was dispensed by the U.S.
govenment in settlement of such claims.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-01 04:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
On Sunday, October 26, 2014 2:38:31 PM The
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:08:01 -0400,
..(2) These intercepts were part of
the basis for a decision to evacuate
all PJAs from the West Coast.
Tenuous; after all, they left the PJA....
and even the West Coast PJA were
not removed until about the time of
the Midway Battle.
Earlier than that. Actually the removals
started 3 months before Mioway. The
first evacuations were from Bainbridge
Island near Seattle in March of 1942.
So, they started 3 months AFTER Pearl Harbor, and finished about the
time of Midway. Yes, we know all this.
Post by WJHopwood
...Surely it must have been obvious
to the powers that be after Midway
that the greatest danger was past.
Not really. Few realized at the time how
important the victory at Midway was. It
Exuse me? The Japanese certainly did. The US certainly did, given that they
had a very good idea how many capital ships the Japanese had, and a
reasonable
Post by WJHopwood
confiscation typical of the US internment
experience?'
It was not.
It was; you been given references and examples.

Many PJAs suffered losses due
Post by WJHopwood
to the relocation of the population on short
notice. But so did many non-JA's. Many lost
jobs, businesses, cash, property, and personal
effects because of the upheavals and
relocations of being called to military duty or
finding employment in war production
industries during the war years.
In other words, being treated like citizens, not enemies.

Mike
The Horny Goat
2014-11-04 00:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
Tenuous; after all, they left the PJA....
and even the West Coast PJA were
not removed until about the time of
the Midway Battle.
Earlier than that. Actually the removals
started 3 months before Mioway. The
first evacuations were from Bainbridge
Island near Seattle in March of 1942.
So, they started 3 months AFTER Pearl Harbor, and finished about the
time of Midway. Yes, we know all this.
OK - in Canada the deportation planning started about Feb/Mar 1942 and
actually got in motion about 3-4 months after that and was largely
accomplished by Sept 1942.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
...Surely it must have been obvious
to the powers that be after Midway
that the greatest danger was past.
Not really. Few realized at the time how
important the victory at Midway was. It
Exuse me? The Japanese certainly did. The US certainly did, given that they
had a very good idea how many capital ships the Japanese had, and a
reasonable
Post by WJHopwood
confiscation typical of the US internment
experience?'
It was not.
Again - I have personally seen receipts 'selling' a car for an amount
in the $15-30 range - several of them.

As stated previously most of this was in the Canadian museum in New
Denver, BC which is a small mill and mining town that happened to have
lots of unoccupied miners' huts in 1942 and was built up from there to
a population of 12-14000 which was more than the entire regional
population pre-war
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Many PJAs suffered losses due
Post by WJHopwood
to the relocation of the population on short
notice. But so did many non-JA's. Many lost
jobs, businesses, cash, property, and personal
effects because of the upheavals and
relocations of being called to military duty or
finding employment in war production
industries during the war years.
In other words, being treated like citizens, not enemies.
One thing not mentioned previously was that the Canadian PJA's were
required to pay for their own internment - again the whole point of
this original posting was to contrast the US and Canadian experience
on this subject. What I'm hearing is that the Canadian experience was
much tougher - and that does not include the Hawaiian PJA experience.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-04 06:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
So, they started 3 months AFTER Pearl Harbor, and finished about the
time of Midway. Yes, we know all this.
OK - in Canada the deportation planning started about Feb/Mar 1942 and
actually got in motion about 3-4 months after that and was largely
accomplished by Sept 1942.
In the US, the actual suspects were rounded up within days. After that,
it dragged on for a few months while people tried to muster the
political support necessary for a full internment.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
confiscation typical of the US internment
experience?'
It was not.
Again - I have personally seen receipts 'selling' a car for an amount
in the $15-30 range - several of them.
As stated previously most of this was in the Canadian museum in New
Denver, BC which is a small mill and mining town that happened to have
lots of unoccupied miners' huts in 1942 and was built up from there to
a population of 12-14000 which was more than the entire regional
population pre-war
The Japanese sometimes simply had to walk away from their property; no
buyers.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
finding employment in war production
industries during the war years.
In other words, being treated like citizens, not enemies.
One thing not mentioned previously was that the Canadian PJA's were
required to pay for their own internment - again the whole point of
this original posting was to contrast the US and Canadian experience
on this subject. What I'm hearing is that the Canadian experience was
much tougher - and that does not include the Hawaiian PJA experience.
That's what it seems like. The property loss was similar, and perhaps the
nisei/issei were rounded up a bit more quickly in the US, but they were
allowed to return sooner (many before the end of the war.) I have heard of
no attempt to make them pay for their own imprisonment.

What restitutions were offered them, post-war, in Canada?

Mike
The Horny Goat
2014-11-05 05:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by The Horny Goat
One thing not mentioned previously was that the Canadian PJA's were
required to pay for their own internment - again the whole point of
this original posting was to contrast the US and Canadian experience
on this subject. What I'm hearing is that the Canadian experience was
much tougher - and that does not include the Hawaiian PJA experience.
That's what it seems like. The property loss was similar, and perhaps the
nisei/issei were rounded up a bit more quickly in the US, but they were
allowed to return sooner (many before the end of the war.) I have heard of
no attempt to make them pay for their own imprisonment.
What restitutions were offered them, post-war, in Canada?
There were some payments in 1945 but I saw at least one letter in the
New Denver museum where the writer told the government representative
that he would not be cashing the cheque as that would legitimize the
government's actions.

There was an apology from the Prime Minster in the late 1980s but I'm
not aware of any personal redress (though plenty of memorials etc)

http://www.crr.ca/en/redress-anniversary/404-articles/24765-25th-anniversary-of-the-japanese-canadian-redress-agreement
WJHopwood
2014-10-21 00:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
etc. etc. etc.
Can we agree on a few facts as the basis for discussions,
interpretations, and opinions?
I doubt it but it would be nice if we could.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
I'm using the acronym "PJA" (Persons of Japanese Ancestry)
to avoid being sidetracked into questions of who is or is not
included in the term "Japanese American."
That's OK for describing them by what they have in
common, but too broad to identify their individual status
after we were at war with Japan. They then became
categorized in one of three ways: enemy alien, dual
citizen, or American citizen only.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
(1) MAGIC intercepts included statements from Japanese
diplomats in the US that they had recruited local PJAs to spy
for them.
Right.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
.There were no names or details, e.g., what information
had been obtained from these spies.
There were some names in the messages but
usually without identifying the individuals as either
U.S. citizens or aliens. However, the messages did
contain plenty of information about what types of
espionage the spies were engaged in.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
(2) These intercepts were part of the basis for a
decision to evacuate all JAs from the West Coast.
Right.

(3) > No PJAs were ever prosecuted, during or after
Post by Merlin Dorfman
the war, for any acts of disloyalty.
I haven't heard of any such prosecutions but there
was good reason not to do so. The MAGIC intercepts
continued throughout and long after the war was
over (the Venona project). The U.S. could not risk a
compromise of MAGIC and its related intelligence
methods and sources, whereas under the legal
prosecution process such a compromise would have
been inevitable.

(4)> The US never obtained any information, during or
Post by Merlin Dorfman
after the war, to confirm that local PJAs provided or
attempted to provide anything useful to Japan, other
than by the spy rings that were known to the FBI and
Naval Intelligence.
Since japan irself confirmed in the MAGIC intercepts that
it had PJAs performing espionage in the U.S. Army, war
production plants, and reporting the movement of ships
and war supplies from U.S. ports it seems far fetched to
assume thar none of this information confirmed the use
of PJAs to provide useful information to Japan.

(5) > Any statements about what PJAs might have
Post by Merlin Dorfman
done if left in place during the war are pure speculation.
That could be true but much of military action is based
on speculation about what the enemy's plans are. Japan
itself told us in the intercepts what it was doing or intended
to do in the courae of using PJAs. Why should they not
have been taken at their word? Moreover, much was
separately known from ONI, MID, and FBI investigations
to confirm that at least some speculation turned out to have
been well-founded.
The point of Intelligence gathering is to provide
information from which not only aggressive action but
defensive action may be taken on the best judgement
(a.k.a."speculation") of the commander whose decision
it is to make. Commanders are not expected to wait for
subversive action to occur before they take action to guard
against it.

WJH
Rich Rostrom
2014-10-21 07:30:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Merlin Dorfman
.There were no names or details, e.g., what information
had been obtained from these spies.
There were some names in the messages but
usually without identifying the individuals as either
U.S. citizens or aliens.
The only individuals named in any MAGIC decrypts
were among the handful of known associates of
Japanese consular spies, all whom had been busted
long before Pearl Harbor. Except a handful who
continued to drive the Japanese around and such,
and who were all picked up in December 1941.
Post by WJHopwood
However, the messages did contain plenty of
information about what types of espionage the spies
were engaged in.
No. They contained plenty of claims by the
consular spies about all the important and
valuable information their legions of
unidentified spies were going to obtain.

They contained _no_ _information_ provided
by any such spies. Not one report of any kind
from any unknown spy. Which is a pretty strong
clue that there were no such spies.

The claims by the consular spies to have
many sub-agents in the U.S. were just that:
unsupported claims by operatives who had
completely failed to achieve any espionage
success, and were desperately blowing smoke
at their superiors.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Michael Emrys
2014-10-21 14:37:54 UTC
Permalink
The claims by the consular spies to have many sub-agents in the U.S.
were just that: unsupported claims by operatives who had completely
failed to achieve any espionage success, and were desperately blowing
smoke at their superiors.
This is a crucial point that has been overlooked in this discussion
prior to this point. Among all bureaucracies there is a tendency for
subordinates to tell superiors what they think the latter want to hear,
even if that might be groundless or even foolish. But among the Japanese
bureaucracies at this time it achieved almost the status of a state
religion. At pretty much all levels, bureaucrats were extremely
reluctant to be the bringers of bad or even less than glowing news. It
is entirely consistent with that tendency that the reports submitted to
Tokyo by their consulate and embassy officials would be exaggerated
versions of "we're working hard and doing fine." That this behavior
could lead to dangerously deluded vision among higher ups didn't enter
into it. So far as I know few if any officials were ever disciplined for
submitting false positives, but it was well known that anyone who was
not claiming great success could well have their careers sidelined.

Michael
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-23 04:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
The claims by the consular spies to have many sub-agents in the U.S.
were just that: unsupported claims by operatives who had completely
failed to achieve any espionage success, and were desperately blowing
smoke at their superiors.
This is a crucial point that has been overlooked in this discussion
prior to this point. Among all bureaucracies there is a tendency for
subordinates to tell superiors what they think the latter want to hear,
even if that might be groundless or even foolish. But among the Japanese
bureaucracies at this time it achieved almost the status of a state
religion. At pretty much all levels, bureaucrats were extremely
reluctant to be the bringers of bad or even less than glowing news.
For a non-Magic illustration of this, consider the reports of the Battle
of Midway. It was presented as a victory in the papers, to senior
officials, and to the Germans, though some undoubtedly saw it for what
it was.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-10-21 17:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
There were some names in the messages but
usually without identifying the individuals as either
U.S. citizens or aliens. However, the messages
did contain plenty of information about what types
of espionage the spies were engaged in.
The only individuals named in any MAGIC decrypts
were among the handful of known associates of
Japanese consular spies, all whom had been buste
long before Pearl Harbor.
How about this one and the fellow named here?
#41 Jan 30,1941 Tokyo to Washington
(exerpt) "...(1) Establish an intelligence
organization which will maintain liaison with private
and semi-official intelligence organs ...the focal
point ..shall be the determination of the total strength
of the U.S.....(using)....Our "second generation"
and our resident nationals...get the details from...
Terasaki......."

So Tersaki was busted long before Pearl Harbor?
How would you know that? Your source please?
Post by Rich Rostrom
Except a handful who continued to drive the
Japanese around and such, and who were all
picked up in December 1941.
Oh, then Terasaki was just a chauffer and was
busted in December of 1941. How would you
know that? Source please?

And for this one: #45 Msy 11, 1941 Seattle to
Tokyo
(excerpt) "....We are securing intelligences
concerning the concentration of warships within
the Bremerton Navy Yard. Information with regard
to...shipping and airplane manufacture..movement
of military forces as well as that which concerns
troop maneuvers...We have a first generation Japanese
who is a member of the labor movement...contact the
organizer...OKAMURU is in chsrge of this...(and) we
are making use of a second generation Japanese
lawyer...."

So, were OKAMURU and the Japanese-American
lawyeralso busted before Pearl Harbor? Yes? No? How
would you possibly know?
Post by Rich Rostrom
They contained _no_ _information_ provide
by any such spies. Not one report of any kind
from any unknown spy. Which is a pretty strong
clue that there were no such spies.
No information?
How about this one?
#7 June 2, 1941 Los Angeles to Washington
"On the 20th the Saratoga, and on the 24th
the Chester)(?), the Louisville, the 12th Destoyer
Squadron, and destroyers #364,405,411,412,
and 413 entered San Diego and all of them
left on thr 31st.:

Or this one:
#056 June 23, 1941 Seattle to
Tokyo (exerpt)
"Ships at anchor on the 22nd/23rd
(1).Bremerton- 1 battleship (Maryland type),
aircraft tenders--1 one ship has letter E on side....
Port of ___1 destroyer, 1 destroyer, 11 coast
guard cutters, ...11 appear to be minesweepers, ...
(3)Sand Point-2 newly constructed hangars
(4)Boeing -- new construction...etc., etc.
Post by Rich Rostrom
The claims by the consular spies to have
unsupported claims by operatives who had
completely failed to achieve any espionage
success, and were desperately blowing smoke
at their superiors.
Take another look at #41 above. Are we to
assume that the message is just the superior
(Tokyo) blowing smoke back at a subordinate?

i could give you many more MAGIC intercepts
like the above and some more detailed about
ongoing Japanese espionage operations but
that would probably be a waste of time as you
seem totally unaware of what really happened
vis-a-vis the MAGIC intercepts and determined
to remain so.

WJH
Michele
2014-10-22 14:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one and the fellow named here?
#41 Jan 30,1941 Tokyo to Washington
(exerpt) "...(1) Establish an intelligence
organization which will maintain liaison with private
and semi-official intelligence organs ...the focal
point ..shall be the determination of the total strength
of the U.S.....(using)....Our "second generation"
and our resident nationals...get the details from...
Terasaki......."
The fellow named here is Hidenori Terasaki. He's not a local espionage
asset. He's A JAPANESE DIPLOMAT, THE SECRETARY OF THE JAPANESE EMBASSY.
Sorry for the all capitals, but it seemed a time when they are justified.

You shouldn't read a source that provides such a heavily excerpted text.
If you do so, you are exposed to the risk that the guy making the
excerpting and cutting stuff out is in bad faith.

In fact, if you had read the whole text, instead of relying on a heavily
edited, I'd say maimed, text, you would have come to know that, because
the full text says:

" Please get the details from SECRETARY Terasaki upon his assuming his
duties there. " (capitals are mine).

The cutting out of "Secretary" and "upon his assuming his duties there"
(at the Japanese embassy) is pretty telling. Really a big clue to the
fact that the source you were unfortunately fooled by was in bad faith.
It cannot be a coincidence.

Note the complete text is easily available online, it took me less than
3 minutes to find it.

I won't check the rest of what you post, given your monumental failure
above, chances are that unfortunately you were entirely fooled as to the
rest too.

The full text of the message is below. Note it's #44, not #41; the
dishonest source that fooled you probably made a deliberate, albeit
laughable, attempt at making it a tad more difficult to track and
cross-check.


"Magic intercept Tokyo to Washington #44 - Jan 30, 1941
Intercept dated January 30, 1941 and noted as translated 2-7-41 Numbered #44

FROM: Tokyo (Matsuoka) TO: Washington (Koshi)

(In two parts--complete). (Foreign Office secret).

(1) Establish an intelligence organ in the Embassy which will maintain
liaison with private and semi-official intelligence organs (see my
message to Washington #591 and #732 from New York to Tokyo, both of last
year's series). With regard to this, we are holding discussions with the
various circles involved at the present time.

(2) The focal point of our investigations shall be the determination of
the total strength of the U.S. Our investigations shall be divided into
three general classifications: political, economic, and military, and
definite course of action shall be mapped out.

(3) Make a survey of all persons or organizations which either openly or
secretly oppose participation in the war.

(4) Make investigations of all antisemitism, communism, movements of
Negroes, and labor movements.

(5) Utilization of U.S. citizens of foreign extraction (other than
Japanese), aliens (other than Japanese), communists, Negroes, labor
union members, and anti-Semites, in carrying out the investigations
described in the preceding paragraph would undoubtedly bear the best
results. These men, moreover, should have access to governmental
establishments, (laboratories?), governmental organizations of various
characters, factories, and transportation facilities.

(6) Utilization of our "Second Generations" and our resident nationals.
(In view of the fact that if there is any slip in this phase, our people
in the U.S. will be subjected to considerable persecution, and the
utmost caution must be exercised).

(7) In the event of U.S. participation in the war, our intelligence
set-up will be moved to Mexico, making that country the nerve center of
our intelligence net. Therefore, will you bear this in mind and in
anticipation of such an eventuality, set up facilities for a U.S.-Mexico
international intelligence route. This net which will cover Brazil,
Argentina, Chile, and Peru will also be centered in Mexico.

(8) We shall cooperate with the German and Italian intelligence organs
in the U.S. This phase has been discussed with the Germans and Italians
in Tokyo, and it has been approved.

Please get the details from Secretary Terasaki upon his assuming his
duties there.

Please send copies to those offices which were on the distribution list
of No. 43."

This boils down to Tokyo ordering the embassy to recruit local assets -
not the embassy reporting to Tokyo that they did recruit local assets.

The most interesting thing, that I wasn't aware of (and for which,
therefore, I have to thank you regardless of the dismal quality of what
you posted) is that Tokyo clearly placed more emphasis on recruiting
people in the USA not of Japanese ancestry. They come first (point 5,
before point 6 which your badly pruned source quoted). Additionally,
when it comes to recruit people of Japanese ancestry and resident
nationals, the embassy is told to exercise the utmost caution - which
they are not told when recruiting other foreigners, "Negroes",
anti-Semites, Communists etc.
In short, they would have preferred to use local espionage assets that
were not Japanese or of Japanese ancestry.

I'm sure you will be glad to know that you can't trust that source any more.
WJHopwood
2014-10-22 21:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one and the fellow named here?
#41 Jan 30,1941 Tokyo to Washington
(exerpt) "...(1) Establish an intelligence
organization which will maintain liaison with private
and semi-official intelligence organs ...the focal
point ..shall be the determination of the total strength
of the U.S.....(using)....Our "second generation"
and our resident nationals...get the details from...
Terasaki......."
The fellow named here is Hidenori Terasaki. He's not
a local espionage asset. He's A JAPANESE DIPLOMAT,
THE SECRETARY OF THE JAPANESE EMBASSY......
The cutting out of "Secretary" and "upon his assuming
his duties there"....is pretty telling....fact that the source
you were unfortunately fooled by was in bad faith.
It cannot be a coincidence.
You have not only misinterpreted, but misrepresented
what i said. Had you read the part of the message to
which I was responding, you would have seen that Mr.
Rostrom was denying my statement that there were some
namss mentioned in the (MAGIC) messages but usually
without identifying the individuals as either U.S.citizens
or aliens, .
Rostrom's response to me was that: "The ONLY
individuals NAMED in ANY MAGIC decrypts were among
the handful of known associates of Japanese consular
spies, ALL OF WHOM HAD BEEN BUSTED LONG BEFORE
PEARL HARBOR." (Emphasis mine). .
That Terasaki was on the consulate staff was obvious
and well-known to anybody who has read the intercepts.
I used his name to show that his was a name which had
not only been mentioned in the MAGIC decrypts but that
it was not likely that he was among those "busted long
before Pearl Harbor.."
Nowhere but in your imagination was it claimed
or even hinted that he was a Japanese-American spy.
Had you paid more attention to the context of my
post it would not have been necessary for you to go off
half-cocked assumptions and charges of "bad faith."

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-23 05:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Michele
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one and the fellow named here?
#41 Jan 30,1941 Tokyo to Washington
(exerpt) "...(1) Establish an intelligence
organization which will maintain liaison with private
and semi-official intelligence organs ...the focal
point ..shall be the determination of the total strength
of the U.S.....(using)....Our "second generation"
and our resident nationals...get the details from...
Terasaki......."
The fellow named here is Hidenori Terasaki. He's not
a local espionage asset. He's A JAPANESE DIPLOMAT,
THE SECRETARY OF THE JAPANESE EMBASSY......
The cutting out of "Secretary" and "upon his assuming
his duties there"....is pretty telling....fact that the source
you were unfortunately fooled by was in bad faith.
It cannot be a coincidence.
You have not only misinterpreted, but misrepresented
what i said. Had you read the part of the message to
No, you seem not to understand what you wrote; how many people are posting
under your name?

You asked "Was Terasaki busted before Pearl Harbor". Clearly, you are
presenting him as an example of someone detected by Magic intercepts as
a nisei spy.

Mike
Michele
2014-10-23 14:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Michele
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one and the fellow named here?
#41 Jan 30,1941 Tokyo to Washington
(exerpt) "...(1) Establish an intelligence
organization which will maintain liaison with private
and semi-official intelligence organs ...the focal
point ..shall be the determination of the total strength
of the U.S.....(using)....Our "second generation"
and our resident nationals...get the details from...
Terasaki......."
The fellow named here is Hidenori Terasaki. He's not
a local espionage asset. He's A JAPANESE DIPLOMAT,
THE SECRETARY OF THE JAPANESE EMBASSY......
The cutting out of "Secretary" and "upon his assuming
his duties there"....is pretty telling....fact that the source
you were unfortunately fooled by was in bad faith.
It cannot be a coincidence.
You have not only misinterpreted, but misrepresented
what i said. Had you read the part of the message to
No, you seem not to understand what you wrote; how many people are posting
under your name?
You asked "Was Terasaki busted before Pearl Harbor". Clearly, you are
presenting him as an example of someone detected by Magic intercepts as
a nisei spy.
Especially considering that he posted that in reply to a message that
pointed out how the intercepts did not name any agents. Naturally, he
was unwittingly led into error because he made the mistake of using a
source that was very deceptive to start with, since it had removed the
obviously important identification of this Terasaki as a member of the
Japanese diplomatic personnel. That is why I recommend not to use that
source any more - it's unreliable.
Rich Rostrom
2014-10-24 07:59:34 UTC
Permalink
I don't think I need to pile on here.

I will acknowledge that I was in error when I wrote
that "The only individuals named in any MAGIC decrypts
were among the handful of known associates of Japanese
consular spies..."

MAGIC included most of the official correspondence
between Japanese diplomats in the U.S. and their
government in Tokyo, and of course included
references by name to Japanese diplomatic staff,
American officials they met with, political
figures such as Lindbergh, prominent military men
like Macarthur, and significant figures in other
countries such as Sorge, and quite probably Gandhi.

Of course none of these additional named persons
were identified as agents or sources for Japanese
espionage, and so are irrelevant to the claim that
MAGIC decrypts identified otherwise unknown
Japanese-Americans who worked for Japanese
intelligence - a claim which remains completely
without support.

My statement would have been correct if qualifled
as follows:

"The only individuals named in any MAGIC decrypts

==== as agents or sources for Japanese espionage ====

were among the handful of known associates of Japanese
consular spies..."

Since the discussion was of the claim that MAGIC
identified such agents, the qualification was,
I thought, obviously implicit. Apparently it was
not obvious enough.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
WJHopwood
2014-10-26 05:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for the long lines
On Friday, October 24, 2014 3:59:35 AM Rich
Post by Rich Rostrom
I will acknowledge that I was in error
when I wrote that "The only individuals
named in any MAGIC decrypts were
among the handful of known associates
of Japanese consular spies..."
In looking back over the messages which
raised such a firestorm of misinterpretation,
misrepresentation,and false accusations
over the issue of whose names did or did
not appear in Magic decrypts, it now seems
apparent that what created the disagreement
can be traced to your post of October 21.

In that post you opened by quoting a part of
my response to a post by Mr.Dorfman out of
context.(see below). That apparently caused
a couple of readers to misinterpret what i
intended to show by mentioning that the
names of Terasaki and Okamuru had
appeared in the decrypts. That and the
statement in your post (which you have now
corrected), in which you claimed that there
weren't any names in any of the decrypts
except of associates of consular spies who
were 'busted long before Pearl Harbor,"

Accordingly it seemed apparent to some
(including yourself) that I had made a claim
that the names of spies had been mentioned
in the Magic intercepts, whereas I have
consistently said just the opposite. Had you
qouted more of my Dorfman post it would
have clearly shown that I was not referring to
spies when I menioned the names I used in my
post. .
Here was the pertinent part of my Dorfman
Post by Rich Rostrom
(1) MAGIC intercepts included statements
from Japanese diplomats in the US that they
had recruited local PJAs to spy for them.
Hopwood;
"Right."
Post by Rich Rostrom
.There were no names or details, e.g., what
information had been obtained from these
spies.
Hopwood:
"There were some names in the messages but
usually without identifying the individuals as
either U.S. citizens or aliens. However, the
messages did contain plenty of information
about what types of espionage the spies were
engaged in."

In your post, however, you only quoted this part
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
There were some names in the messages
but usually without identifying the
individuals as either U.S. citizens or aliens.
However, the messages did contain plenty
?> > of information about what types of
Post by WJHopwood
espionage the spies were engaged in.
Without seeing more of my exchange with
Mr Dorfman, a few might have mistakenly
believed or pretended to believe that I was
suggesting that Terasaki and Okamoru were
spies, which was the opposite of my intent.
Thua the phony charges and name callings
made by a couple of contrbutors to this
forum may have been wrongfully motivated
by a combination of wishful thinking and
imagination but not by fact.

WJH
Rich Rostrom
2014-10-27 19:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Accordingly it seemed apparent to some
(including yourself) that I had made a claim
that the names of spies had been mentioned
in the Magic intercepts, whereas I have
consistently said just the opposite.
You have asserted many times that the content of MAGIC
decrypts justified the mass internment of
Japanese-Americans.

It was pointed out that not one of the
Japanese-Americans interned in 1942 was ever convicted
or even charged with espionage on the basis of MAGIC
sigint, even after the war when the MAGIC operation
was disclosed to the public.

You responded that this was because the text of
decrypts were still classified after the war.

This is an obvious implication that MAGIC decrypts
_could_ have been used to charge individual
Japanese-Americans who had not been arrested or
interned in 1941.

However, it now appears that you reject that
implication. Good.

Perhaps there will now be an end of claims that MAGIC
decrypts supported the mass internments of 1942.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
WJHopwood
2014-10-28 14:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
Accordingly it seemed apparent to some
(including yourself) that I had made a claim
that the names of spies had been mentioned
in the Magic intercepts, whereas I have
consistently said just the opposite.
You have asserted many times that the content
of MAGIC decrypts justified the mass internment
of Japanese-Americans.
What I said is that intelligence obtained from Magic
was ONE of the reasons for the evacuation decision
I didn't say it was the sole reason. On a number
of occasions the Magic intercepts revealed that
Japan was using resident Japanese and PJAs
borne in the U.S., the latter being referred to as
("our second generations) for espionage. You can't
deny that they admitted that loud and clear. It's
just plain silly to pretend they didn'r mean what
they said. Just "blowing smoke." as you put it.
Incidentally, you are mistaken to use the
phrase "mass internment" as you do above.
Internment was not "evacuation" nor was it
conducted "en masse."
ir was a stand-alone procedure separately
administered by the Dept. of Justice, not the War
Relocarion Aurthority, It applied only to enemy
aliens who had received individual hearings
before enemy alien review boards.
Post by Rich Rostrom
It was pointed out that not one of the
Japanese-Americans interned in 1942 was
ever convicted or even charged with espionage
on the basis of MAGIC sigint, even after
the war when the MAGIC operation was
disclosed to the public.
So what? That means nothing. After the war
only bare-bones info about Magic became
public knowledge. The intelligence professionals
wanted to keep it that way inasmuch as many
of the same sources and methods were still i
n use during the cold war as well as for years
thereafter.

WJH
Merlin Dorfman
2014-10-28 17:51:05 UTC
Permalink
..
What I said is that intelligence obtained from Magic was ONE of the
reasons for the evacuation decision I didn't say it was the sole reason.
On a number of occasions the Magic intercepts revealed that Japan was
using resident Japanese and PJAs born in the U.S., the latter being
referred to as ("our second generations) for espionage. You can't deny
that they admitted that loud and clear. It's just plain silly to pretend
they didn't mean what they said. Just "blowing smoke." as you put it.
..

Can we agree on two more "facts:"
- Magic decrypts revealed that Japanese diplomats in the US claimed to
have networks of local PJAs gathering intelligence for them
- The messages contained no specifics of individuals in the network or of
information received from them, and none of these details have emerged in
the subsequent 70+ years
WJHopwood
2014-10-29 17:49:13 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:51:07 PM
On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:39:10 -0400,
On Monday, October 27, 2014 3:41
..... ......Magic intercepts revealed that Japan
was using resident Japanese and PJAs born
in the U.S., the latter being referred to as
( "our second generations) for espionage....
it's just plain silly to pretend they didn't
mean what they said. Just "blowing smoke."
as you put it.
Can we agree on two more "facts:"
Magic decrypts revealed that Japanese
diplomats in the U.S. claimed to have networks of local
PJAs gathering intelligence for them
I agree with that.
- The messages contained no specifics of
individuals in the network ....
I don't agree with that.. I believe the degree of
"specificity" perceived today depends largely on
the current social perspective of those who now
read them out of context more than 70 years
after the fact.
I agree that there were no names of spies given,
but the messages did mention what the spies were
assigned to do and whether or not they were
American-borne or were resident alien Japanese.
It seems too much to say that this type of info was
useless as intelligence because it was not more
detailed. What more was needed in the messages
to be taken seriously? Names, addresses, phone
numbers of the Japanese spies?
or of information received from them, and none
of these details have emerged in the subsequent
70+ years
Much of the info received from Magic was useful
confirmation of info obtained from other sources and
detailed in the ONI and MID voluminous reports
submitted to high command. I listed some such
reports in a prior post. Why assume the consuls
were not being truthful when, in pre-Pearl Harbor
1941, they specifically said that they were using
American-borne and resident Japanese for
espionage?

WJH
Rich Rostrom
2014-10-28 18:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
You have asserted many times that the content
of MAGIC decrypts justified the mass internment
of Japanese-Americans.
What I said is that intelligence obtained from Magic
was ONE of the reasons for the evacuation decision
I didn't say it was the sole reason.
What other evidence of any kind was there
that Japanese-Americans represented any
significant security risk at the time of
the mass internments?

What other such evidence have you cited?

None that I can recall.
Post by WJHopwood
On a number
of occasions the Magic intercepts revealed that
Japan was using resident Japanese and PJAs
borne in the U.S., the latter being referred to as
("our second generations) for espionage.
No. MAGIC revealed that the Japanese consular spies in
the United States _claimed_ to be using (or planning
to use) Japanese-Americans (and blacks, Mexicans,
Communists, and anti-semites) for espionage.

MAGIC did not show any evidence of wspionage
actually carried out by any such recruited
agents, excluding the feeble efforts already
discovered by the FBI and shut down in 1941.
Post by WJHopwood
You can't
deny that they admitted that loud and clear. It's
just plain silly to pretend they didn'r mean what
they said. Just "blowing smoke." as you put it.
Why?

Lying to superiors to cover up failure was endemic in
the Japanese Empire - practically SOP.

It's also a common problem in espionage generally.

One egregious case was an Abwehr agent in Spain,
code-named OSTRO by the British. The British were
reading Abwehr radio traffic from Spain to Germany,
and were alarmed to see that OSTRO had several
reporting agents in Britain.

They made extensive efforts to track down these
agents, but couldn't find them. Careful study of
OSTRO's "agent reports" revealed they were mostly
gleaned or inferred from public sources. The remainder
was merely plausible guesswork - usually wrong.

The British concluded - correctly - that they didn't
exist. OSTRO was lying to his superiors. He wanted to
keep his safe, well-paid job in Spain, instead of
being sent to, say, the Eastern Front.

He was nonetheless dangerous - his reports might
contradict the reports of the XX Committee's
controlled double agents and damage their credibility,
or by some lucky guess reveal an important secret.

Fortunately, the Germans caught on to him after a
while.

SOE had similar problems with their operations
in Europe.
Post by WJHopwood
Incidentally, you are mistaken to use the
phrase "mass internment" as you do above.
You tell me what phrase to use to refer to the
forcible removal of all West Coast Japanese-Americans
from their homes to confinement in government camps.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
WJHopwood
2014-10-29 20:03:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
Post by Rich Rostrom
What other evidence of any kind was there
that Japanese-Americans represented any
significant security risk at the time of
the mass internments?
What other such evidence have you cited?
None that I can recall.
Then you haven't been paying attention. A
few I have cited over time have been::
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
2. Ringle "Japanese Menace on Terminal Island"
3. ONI Japanese Espionage and Propaganda
in the U.S. in 1941
4. ONI Japanese Tokyo Club Syndicate
5. ONI Japanese Espionage Organization in the U.S.
6. MID (G-2) Japanese Espionage
7. War Dept.Memo to Chief Counter Intelligence
"Reogranization of Japanese Intelligence in the
U.S."
8. MID "Japanese Ex-Service Mens Organizarion"
(plus and other source mateial)
Post by Rich Rostrom
....MAGIC revealed that the Japanese consular
spies _claimed_ to be using (or planning to use)
Japanese-Americans (and blacks, Mexicans,
Communists, and anti-semites) for espionage.
So you don't think they actually used any of
those people for espionage? That they were just
"blowing smoke?" How would you know that?
Wishful thiking?
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
Incidentally, you are mistaken to use the
phrase "mass internment" as you do above.
You tell me what phrase to use to refer to the
forcible removal of all West Coast Japanese-Americans
from their homes to confinement in government camps.
Why not trying to use the name given to the
class of people in which they found themselves...
They were not interned, as I carefully explained to
you. They were evacuated. They were "evacuees."

WJH
Rich Rostrom
2014-10-31 17:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
Post by Rich Rostrom
What other evidence of any kind was there
that Japanese-Americans represented any
significant security risk at the time of
the mass internments?
What other such evidence have you cited?
None that I can recall.
Then you haven't been paying attention. A
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
2. Ringle "Japanese Menace on Terminal Island"
3. ONI Japanese Espionage and Propaganda
in the U.S. in 1941
4. ONI Japanese Tokyo Club Syndicate
5. ONI Japanese Espionage Organization in the U.S.
6. MID (G-2) Japanese Espionage
7. War Dept.Memo to Chief Counter Intelligence
"Reogranization of Japanese Intelligence in the
U.S."
8. MID "Japanese Ex-Service Mens Organizarion"
(plus and other source mateial)
None of which is _evidence_ of a security
threat in _1942_. There is evidence of a very
feeble security threat in _1941_, which had
been dealt with completely then.

The rest is all speculation and analysis,
much of it based on nothing more than
blatant prejudice.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
....MAGIC revealed that the Japanese consular
spies _claimed_ to be using (or planning to use)
Japanese-Americans (and blacks, Mexicans,
Communists, and anti-semites) for espionage.
So you don't think they actually used any of
those people for espionage?
No, I don't. And don't cite the "Tachibana
Ring" again. You tell me that Old Joe has a
million $. I say Old Joe was broke. Old Joe
had a quarter in his pocket last week.

Which of us is right?
Post by WJHopwood
That they were just
"blowing smoke?" How would you know that?
Because there is not one scrap of evidence
they had any agents not already known to
the U.S. authorities. Not one item of
intelligence received from such agents was
ever reported to Japan. Not one individual
such agent was described in any report, even
in general terms.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
Incidentally, you are mistaken to use the
phrase "mass internment" as you do above.
You tell me what phrase to use to refer to the
forcible removal of all West Coast Japanese-Americans
from their homes to confinement in government camps.
Why not trying to use the name given to the
class of people in which they found themselves...
"Just because a package is labelled 'cigarettes'
does not prove it contains cigarettes."
Post by WJHopwood
They were evacuated. They were "evacuees".
dictionary.reference.com sez

"evacuation

[ih-vak-yoo-ey-shuh n] /væk yue n/

noun

4. the removal of persons or things from
an endangered area."

That is, removal from a danger _to_ those
persons or things, as when residents are
evacuated from an area in danger of flood
or wildfire, or Americans are evacuated
from a foreign country in civil disorder.

West Coast Japanese-Americans were in no
danger in mid-1942, except possibly from
racially motivated mob violence.

Nonetheless, they were _ordered_ to leave
their homes and transported to camps they
were _ordered_ to stay in, under threat of
force.

That this proceeding was labeled "evacuation"
doesn't make it so.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-01 03:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
2. Ringle "Japanese Menace on Terminal Island"
None of which is _evidence_ of a security
threat in _1942_. There is evidence of a very
feeble security threat in _1941_, which had
been dealt with completely then.
And in fact, Ringle's conclusions are the opposite of Hopwood's. He states,
flatly,

"that it (the "Japanese Promlem") is no more serious that the
problems of the German, Italian, and Communistic portions of the
United States population"

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-11-01 16:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
2. Ringle "Japanese Menace on Terminal Island"
And in fact, Ringle's conclusions are the opposite of
Hopwood's.
There you go again, Misrepresenting as usual.
Ringle's conclusion was certainly not the opposite of
mine when he said:
"The primary and future problem is that of dealing
with these American-borne Unite States citizens
of Japanese ancestry, of whom it is considered
lthat least seventy--five percent are loyal to the
United Strates"

So, you see that even Ringle himself considered that
the loyalty of up to 25% of the japanese-Americans
was questionable. That would have been approximately
10,000 JAs..

And not the opposite of mine when he also said:
"That of the Japanese-borne alien residents, the
large majority ....would knowingly do nothing
....to the injury of the United States, but at the
same time might well do nothing to the injury
of Japan....most of the remainder would not
engage in active sabotage or insurrection,
BUT MIGHT WELL DO SURREPTIOUS
OBSERVATION WORK FOR JAPANESE
INTERESTS IF GIVEN A CONVENIENT
OPPORTUNITY." (Emphasis mine)

That would be another some 40,000 PJAs whose
loyalty to the United States was questionable.

So, altogether, of the approx 110,000. PJAs who
were evacuated, Ringle acknowledged that
the loyalty of some 50,000 PJAs waa not to be
taken for granted. The remainder of those
evacuated were only minor children at the time.
How can there be'any reasonable doubt
that it was only prudent for those responsible for
national security to remove all of the PJAs from
military areas on the West Coast until who was
a threat, and who was not, could be determined?

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-02 04:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
2. Ringle "Japanese Menace on Terminal Island"
And in fact, Ringle's conclusions are the opposite of
Hopwood's.
There you go again, Misrepresenting as usual.
Nope; quoting.
Post by WJHopwood
Ringle's conclusion was certainly not the opposite of
"The primary and future problem is that of dealing
with these American-borne Unite States citizens
of Japanese ancestry, of whom it is considered
lthat least seventy--five percent are loyal to the
United Strates"
So, you see that even Ringle himself considered that
the loyalty of up to 25% of the japanese-Americans
was questionable. That would have been approximately
10,000 JAs..
Nope.

You are again ignoring all the parts that directly dispute your racial stance.

"(h) That, in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been magnified
out of its true proportion, largely because of the physical
characteristics of the people; that it is no more serious that the
problems of the German, Italian, and Communistic portions of the
United States population, and, finally that it should be handled
on the basis of the individual, regardless of citizenship, and not
on a racial basis."
Post by WJHopwood
"That of the Japanese-borne alien residents, the
large majority ....would knowingly do nothing
....to the injury of the United States, but at the
You seem to be deliberately cutting things that refute you again. Not
very honest:
"That of the Japanese-born alien residents, the large majority
are at least passively loyal to the United States. That is, they
would knowingly do nothing what ever to the injury of the United
States, but at the same time would not do anything to the injury
of Japan."

However, save those who had already served in the US military and received
honorable discharges, ALL those born in Japan were non-citizens, and so
are not in the same group as the nisei, are they, Mr Hopwood?

Or are you confused as the definitions involved?
Post by WJHopwood
BUT MIGHT WELL DO SURREPTIOUS
OBSERVATION WORK FOR JAPANESE
INTERESTS IF GIVEN A CONVENIENT
OPPORTUNITY." (Emphasis mine)
Of course the emphasis is yours. Just as the deliberate omission of
"are at least passively loyal to the United States." was yours.

You are, as always, the most effective rebuttal of your own views. Probably
why you have failed to convince even one reader of your stance over the
years.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-11-01 04:27:09 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, October 31, 2014 1:12:06 PM Rich
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
What other evidence... that
Japanese-Americans represented any
significant security risk...H ave you cited?
None that I can recall.
I just cited 8 sources of evidence for you in
my prior post.
Post by Rich Rostrom
None of which is _evidence_ of a security
threat in _1942_.
Are you that familiar with all 8 of my citations?
I doubt it. You've just got to be kidding.
Post by Rich Rostrom
The rest is all speculation and analysis,
much of it based on nothing more than
blatant prejudice.
When one doesn't have the facts, play the
race card, right?
Post by Rich Rostrom
... there is not one scrap of evidence
Not one item of intelligence received from
. such agents was ever reported to Japan.
Not one individual such agent was described
in any report,even in general terms.
Come, come. When a consul sent a message
to Tokyo saying he is engaging JAs who work
in aircraft plants to give information on production,
shipments, etc. Why would you come to believe
the consul was lying if he didn't give the name(s)
of the JAs and detail the information being
obtained by them in that same message, or
any message for that matter. That sort of
information would more likely have gone
to Tokyo by courier.
The Magic intercepts confirmed
many details of what had been known
or suspected from other sources..
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
You tell me what phrase to use to
refer to the You tell me what phrase to
use to refer to the forcible removal of
all West Coast Japanese-Americans
Not "forcibly" removed. That's hyperbole.
They were "required" to evacuate designated
military areas. Those living outside of the
designated areas were not disturbed at all.
Post by Rich Rostrom
They were evacuated. They were
Post by WJHopwood
"evacuees".
dictionary.reference.com sez
"evacuation
[ih-vak-yoo-ey-shuh n] /væk yue n/
You should have used that format for
the rest of your post. It maks about
as much sense..
Post by Rich Rostrom
noun .... the removal of persons or things from
an endangered area."...
That's one definition but this one fits the military
situation:which motivated the evacuation of PJAs
from the West Coast after Pearl Harbor:
Random House Kernerman Webster's
College Dictionary, (c) 2010
An evacuated person.
"A civilian removed from a place of residence
by military direction for reasons of personal
security or the requirements of the military situation."

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-01 20:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
On Friday, October 31, 2014 1:12:06 PM Rich
Post by Rich Rostrom
What other evidence... that
Japanese-Americans represented any
significant security risk...H ave you cited?
None that I can recall.
I just cited 8 sources of evidence for you in
my prior post.
You did; and trivially, the first 2 refute your stance in those exact
words, stating all the suspicious characters are either known, or already
in custody.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
None of which is _evidence_ of a security
threat in _1942_.
Are you that familiar with all 8 of my citations?
Yes; you continually cherry-pick from them each time you open this debate.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
The rest is all speculation and analysis,
much of it based on nothing more than
blatant prejudice.
When one doesn't have the facts, play the
race card, right?
How odd; of your citations, that very explanation is mentioned. Ie, race
being the driving force behind this hysteria.

To jog your memory;

"in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been magnified
out of its true proportion, largely because of the physical
characteristics of the people; that it is no more serious that the
problems of the German, Italian, and Communistic portions of the
United States population"

and

"There have been already incipient riots brought about by
unprovoked attacks by Filipinos on persons of the Japanese race,
regardless of citizenship. There is a great deal of indiscriminate
anti-Japanese agitation stirring the white population by such people
as Lail Kane, former Naval Reserve officer, James Young, Hearst
correspondent, in his series of lectures, and John B. Hughes, radio
commentator, transcripts of whose broadcasts are submitted as
enclosure"

There's lots more; but you've always had a rather weak grasp of your own
sources.

Mike
Merlin Dorfman
2014-11-02 04:02:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 00:27:09 -0400, WJHopwood wrote:

..
,,, Why would you come to believe the consul was lying if he
didn't give the name(s)
of the JAs and detail the information being obtained by them in that
same message, or any message for that matter. That sort of information
would more likely have gone to Tokyo by courier.
Was anything found in Japan after the war to indicate that the names
of agents or the information they provided had been sent by courier?

..
Not "forcibly" removed. That's hyperbole.
They were "required" to evacuate designated military areas.
Some more thoughts on the use of terminology and avoiding getting
bogged down in terminology and thus not getting to the real issues:
- "Internment" has a definition under the law, one that implies some Due
Process that was not available to the PJAs, so I suggest we avoid using
this word.
- There seem to be at least two inconsistent dictionary definitions of
"evacuation," one stating that people are asked/required to leave because
of a dangerous situation, the other referring to removal without the
necessity of a dangerous situation. Thus there is some risk of
misunderstanding in the use of this word.
- Mr. Hopwood states that the PJAs were not "forcibly removed" but were
"required" to evacuate designated areas. I maintain that "required" and
"mandatory" should be avoided as well--in a mandatory evacuation, such as
Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, those who chose to stay were strongly
advised to leave, but not forced to leave. The PJAs were forced to leave.
- The official term used by the government for this situation is
"relocation." I see no quarrel with using this term as long as we are
clear that the use of force is authorized if necessary to accomplish the
relocation.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-02 18:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
- Mr. Hopwood states that the PJAs were not "forcibly removed" but were
"required" to evacuate designated areas. I maintain that "required" and
"mandatory" should be avoided as well--in a mandatory evacuation, such as
Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, those who chose to stay were strongly
advised to leave, but not forced to leave. The PJAs were forced to leave.
- The official term used by the government for this situation is
"relocation." I see no quarrel with using this term as long as we are
clear that the use of force is authorized if necessary to accomplish the
relocation.
And were forced into specific camps. This is the definition of internment.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-11-03 15:41:45 UTC
Permalink
sorry long lines
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 12:02:07 AMMerlin Dorfman
Post by Merlin Dorfman
,,, Why would you come to believe the consul was lying
if he didn't give the name(s) of the JAs and detail the
information being obtained by them in that same
message, or any message for that matter. That sort
of information would more likely have gone to Tokyo
by courier.
Was anything found in Japan after the war to indicate
that the names of agents or the information they provided
had been sent by courier?
I doubt it. Japan desroyed mountains of documents
in the interim between the surrender and the beginning
of the occupation and advised any Japanese whom
they thought the occupation authorities might be looking
for to "disappear without a trace."
Post by Merlin Dorfman
Not "forcibly" removed. That's hyperbole.
They were "required" to evacuate designated
military areas.
Some more thoughts on the use of terminology
and avoiding getting bogged down..."Internment"
a definition under the law, one that > implies some
Due Process that was not available to the PJAs, so I
suggest we avoid using this word.
I'm glad you pointed that out. Using "the word
"internment" to define the'evacuation/relocation of
PJAs is almost universally done but it shows an
ignorance of the difference, and is also historically
inaccurate. ..
Post by Merlin Dorfman
- There seem to be at least two inconsistent
dictionary definitions of "evacuation," one stating
that people are asked/required to leave because
of a dangerous situation, the other referring to
removal without the necessity of a dangerous
situation. Thus there is some risk of
misunderstanding in the use of this word.
I agree. But common sense should tell us that the
word "evacuate"' is properly used when in the context
of the situation in which ir is appropriate. The PJAs
were evacuated from the West Coast for military
security reasons. The word "evacuation" is properly
used in that context. But for those determined to remain
semantically ignorant, of such usage, perhaps we could
make it easier to understand if we qualified it by adding t
he word "military" to "evacuation" i.e., "military evacuation."
"
Post by Merlin Dorfman
- Mr. Hopwood states that the PJAs were not "forcibly
removed" but were "required" to evacuate designated
areas. I maintain that "required" and "mandatory" should
be avoided as well--in a mandatory evacuation, such
Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, those who chose to stay
were strongly advised to leave, but not forced to leave.
The PJAs were forced to leave.
At first the PJAs were asked to voluntarily move out of the
designated military areas and approx 8000 of them complied.
It soon became evident that most of them had nowhere to
go so the government was (pardon the expression) 'forced'
to provide housing for them. That's how the relocation
centers came to exist, They were, indeed, required to leave
the military area but I prefer not to say 'forced' because it
creates a false image of soldiers with machine guns rounding
up people like cattle and sending them in box cars to Nazi-style concentration camps. There were a few excesses of course,
but by and large the movements were orderly and the PJAs
found themselves in camps with many more amenities than
the Gis (who had no choice either) had to live in at army and
navy bases.
Actually, in living conditions, many PJAs had never had
it so good.
Post by Merlin Dorfman
- The official term used by the government for this situation is
"relocation." I see no quarrel with using this term as long as
we are clear that the use of force is authorized if necessary to
accomplish the relocation.
I agree with that. And here's another fact which should be
noted, particularly by those who claim that :"racism" was the
sole cause of the "relocafion," Those PJAs living OUTSIDE
OF the excluded military areas on the West Coast were not
disturbed at all. They did not have to move
anywhere.
There were 284,852 (per 1940 U.S. census) PJAs in the
U.S and Hawaii, 126,947 living in mainland U.S. alone at the
time of Pearl Harbor. Only 110,000 (less than half the total)
had to move to the relocation canters. Where was the
"racism?"

WJH
Dave Anderer
2014-11-03 19:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Man, this is getting tiresome. Mr. Hopwood, I know of no one you've
convinced of your point(s) of view over the years. Please juet let it
go.

I'm the least PC-person around but it seems clear to me that racism was
an element in the relocation decision. Not the sole reason, but a
significant element.

Claiming the decision was nothing more than military necessity ignores:

- The treatment of Japanese-Americans differing from that of
German-Americans and Italian-Americans.
- The treatment of Japanese in Hawaii - the home of the most critical
military facilities opposing Japan. If there was significant military
necessity action would have been taken here. It wasn't.

Now it may not have been seen as racism at the time, but by todays
commonly accepted values I believe it was racism. That isn't being PC,
just noting that socitial values change. Like it or not.
Post by WJHopwood
At first the PJAs were asked to voluntarily move out of the
designated military areas and approx 8000 of them complied.
It soon became evident that most of them had nowhere to
go so the government was (pardon the expression) 'forced'
to provide housing for them.
Sounds similar to the logic the Nazi's used in constructings camps in
the east...
Post by WJHopwood
Actually, in living conditions, many PJAs had never had
it so good.
No doubt slave owners thought the same thing.

No the Japanese we neither exerminated nor made slaves, but there sure
seems to be a common thread here.
WJHopwood
2014-11-03 23:22:11 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, November 3, 2014 2:50:57 PM Dave Anderer
Post by Dave Anderer
Man, this is getting tiresome. Mr. Hopwood, I know of
no one you've convinced of your point(s) of view over
the years. Please juet let it go.
You took a poll? In your case you can always j
give an intelligent response but from rhe gist of
your post now I gather that you don't know
enough about the subject to do that. So I suggest
that you just tune out of this thread,
Post by Dave Anderer
I'm the least PC-person around ...
No. I'd say on a scale of 1 to 10 your PC
rating was a 9..
Post by Dave Anderer
...but it seems clear to me that racism was
an element in the relocation decision....
In effect you are charging President FDR and our
top wartime leaders with "racism." Why not say
so flat out?
Post by Dave Anderer
Claiming the decision was nothing more than
military necessity ignores The treatment of
Japanese-Americans differing from that of
German-Americans and Italian-Americans.
There were ample reasons ror that:
1. They were much better assimilated into
mainstream America.
2. It would have been logistically impossible to evacuate
so many. There were millions of them.
3. It would have seriously affected war production in
which so many of them were employed.
4. There was little chance of an invasion by either
Germany or Italy. but Japanese raids or landings
were not out-ruledf on the West Coast.


.
Incidentally, I'm sure you don't know this either
but there were actually more German, Italian, and other
Europeans "interned" (not merely relocated like the
PJAs) by DOJ than there were Japanese internees.
But that was befpre over 5000 JAs renounced their
U.S.citizenship to fight on the side of Japan.
Post by Dave Anderer
- The treatment of Japanese in Hawaii - the home
of the most critical> military facilities opposing Japan.
If there was significant military necessity action would
have been taken here. It wasn't.
You overlook the fact that draconian military action
was in effect there--strict martial law under which
everybody (including the PJAs) were closely
observed and tightly controlled. Martial law could
not be declared for the West Coast because it
would have crippled the ongoing war production
there.
Post by Dave Anderer
Now it may not have been seen as racism at the
time,...
Simply because it was not. The PC era was then far
in rhe future.
You should learn more about the subject or try to control
your emotions.
Post by Dave Anderer
Post by WJHopwood
At first the PJAs were asked to voluntarily move out of the
designated military areas and approx 8000 of them complied.
It soon became evident that most of them had nowhere to
go so the government was (pardon the expression) 'forced'
to provide housing for them.
Absolutely true.
Post by Dave Anderer
Sounds similar to the logic the Nazi's used in constructings
camps in the east...
That's just more PC talk.
Post by Dave Anderer
Post by WJHopwood
Actually, in living conditions, many PJAs had never
had it so good.
... the Japanese we neither exerminated nor made
slaves, but there sure seems to be a common thread
here....
More PC nonsense. Slaves never lived with the amenities
the PJAs had in the relocation centers snd even in the DOJ
internmenr camps: Schools, hospitals, swimming pools,
sporta, theatrical productions, gardening, parties, dancing,
,,,more and better than U.S. soldiers and sailors ever had.
One former Japanese who was sent to the DOJ facility
at Missoula, Montana referred to his time there as
"a vacation at government expense." {"Our House
Divided" Univ. of Hawaii Press--1991):
"
WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-04 06:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
On Monday, November 3, 2014 2:50:57 PM Dave Anderer
Post by Dave Anderer
Man, this is getting tiresome. Mr. Hopwood, I know of
no one you've convinced of your point(s) of view over
the years. Please juet let it go.
You took a poll?
He can count. So far the number of people you have convinced is the
first whole number less than one.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Dave Anderer
...but it seems clear to me that racism was
an element in the relocation decision....
In effect you are charging President FDR and our
top wartime leaders with "racism." Why not say
so flat out?
Certainly, Elanor felt there was racism involved, and said. She in fact
attempted to bring a "relocated" family to visit the White House, but
was rebuffed on that.

As for DeWitt:
"DeWitt, who administered the internment program, repeatedly told
newspapers that "A Jap's a Jap" and testified to Congress,"

or
"In the war in which we are now engaged racial affinities are not severed
by migration. The Japanese race is an enemy race and while many second
and third generation Japanese born on United State soil, possessed of
United States citizenship, have become "Americanized," the racial strains
are undiluted. To conclude otherwise is to expect that children born
of white parents on Japanese soil sever all racial affinity and become
loyal Japanese subjects, ready to fight and, if necessary, to die for
Japan in a war against the nation of their parents. That Japan is allied
with Germany and Italy in this struggle is not ground for assuming that
any Japanese, barred from assimilation by convention as he is, though
born and raised in the United States, will not turn against this nation
when the final test of loyalty comes. It, therefore, follows that along
the vital Pacific Coast over 112,000 potential enemies, of Japanese
extraction, are at large today. There are indications that these were
organized and ready for concerted action at a favorable opportunity. The
very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and
confirming indication that such action will be taken"

That last sentence is an example of lack of intellectual honesty on the
part of those who made the decision.

Other west coast views?
"A viper is nonetheless a viper wherever the egg is
hatched.... So, a Japanese American born of Japanese parents,
nurtured upon Japanese traditions, living in a transplanted Japanese
atmosphere... notwithstanding his nominal brand of accidental citizenship
almost inevitably and with the rarest exceptions grows up to be a
Japanese, and not an American.... Thus, while it might cause injustice
to a few to treat them all as potential enemies, I cannot escape the
conclusion... that such treatment... should be accorded to each and all
of them while we are at war with their race."
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Dave Anderer
Claiming the decision was nothing more than
military necessity ignores The treatment of
Japanese-Americans differing from that of
German-Americans and Italian-Americans.
1. They were much better assimilated into
mainstream America.
2. It would have been logistically impossible to evacuate
so many. There were millions of them.
3. It would have seriously affected war production in
which so many of them were employed.
4. There was little chance of an invasion by either
Germany or Italy. but Japanese raids or landings
were not out-ruledf on the West Coast.
.
Incidentally, I'm sure you don't know this either
but there were actually more German, Italian, and other
Europeans "interned" (not merely relocated like the
PJAs) by DOJ than there were Japanese internees.
But that was befpre over 5000 JAs renounced their
U.S.citizenship to fight on the side of Japan.
Post by Dave Anderer
- The treatment of Japanese in Hawaii - the home
of the most critical> military facilities opposing Japan.
If there was significant military necessity action would
have been taken here. It wasn't.
You overlook the fact that draconian military action
was in effect there--strict martial law under which
everybody (including the PJAs) were closely
observed and tightly controlled. Martial law could
not be declared for the West Coast because it
would have crippled the ongoing war production
there.
Post by Dave Anderer
Now it may not have been seen as racism at the
time,...
Simply because it was not. The PC era was then far
in rhe future.
You should learn more about the subject or try to control
your emotions.
Post by Dave Anderer
... the Japanese we neither exerminated nor made
slaves, but there sure seems to be a common thread
here....
More PC nonsense. Slaves never lived with the amenities
the PJAs had in the relocation centers snd even in the DOJ
And white citizens in the US were never rounded up en masse and thrown
into concentration camps.

Hmm

Mike
Michele
2014-11-04 15:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Il 04/11/2014 7.28, ***@netMAPSONscape.net ha scritto:
...The
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and
confirming indication that such action will be taken"
That last sentence is an example of lack of intellectual honesty on the
part of those who made the decision.
Yes, I really like that. Conspiracy-theory stuff all the way. The very
fact that Elvis Presley has not shown up alive until now is a disturbing
and confirming indication that he is indeed alive.
The Horny Goat
2014-11-05 05:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Dave Anderer
Claiming the decision was nothing more than
military necessity ignores The treatment of
Japanese-Americans differing from that of
German-Americans and Italian-Americans.
1. They were much better assimilated into
mainstream America.
You mean like Eisenhower and Nimitz?

(One of funnier parts of Herman Wouk's The Winds of War are the
chapters which are allegedly a book by the fictional unreconstructed
Nazi von Roon who refers to Ike and 'von Nimitz' as German
sympathizers by virtue of their ethnic heritage. Obviously a parody of
Nazi writings and I strongly suspect an inside joke)
Post by WJHopwood
2. It would have been logistically impossible to evacuate
so many. There were millions of them.
3. It would have seriously affected war production in
which so many of them were employed.
4. There was little chance of an invasion by either
Germany or Italy. but Japanese raids or landings
were not out-ruledf on the West Coast.
Soc.history.what-if some years ago did a scenario where there was
magically a bridge across the Atlantic, no US or Royal navies and no
regular US Army - just National Guard. The idea was to determine
whether Hitler had the logistics to defeat the United States and
Canada even in that fantasy scenario.

The conclusion was that such an invasion would fail mostly for
logistical reasons. Simply landing on the US east coast at all would
be a logistical problem particularly with the German merchant navy
(which could be freely used since in this scenario there was the US
Coast Guard but nothing else) the size it was.

And that if the Wehrmacht could supply 3 divisions across the Atlantic
with the shipping they had they would be doing very very well.

Similarly I have no doubt both the Germans and the Japanese could land
raiders of platoon strength which could do significant damage by way
of sabotage but again - that's far from being a successful invasion
force.
Post by WJHopwood
You overlook the fact that draconian military action
was in effect there--strict martial law under which
everybody (including the PJAs) were closely
observed and tightly controlled. Martial law could
not be declared for the West Coast because it
would have crippled the ongoing war production
there.
Post by Dave Anderer
Now it may not have been seen as racism at the
time,...
Simply because it was not. The PC era was then far
in rhe future.
Indeed - in my teen years (late 60s) "Jap" was stil a socially
acceptable expression - while I'm pretty sure by then 'nigger'
definitely was not.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Dave Anderer
Sounds similar to the logic the Nazi's used in constructings
camps in the east...
That's just more PC talk.
Indeed - I don't recall ANY suggestion that non-German Jews posed any
kind of risk to the Third Reich at any time even after the fall of
France.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-04 03:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
At first the PJAs were asked to voluntarily move out of the
designated military areas and approx 8000 of them complied.
It soon became evident that most of them had nowhere to
go so the government was (pardon the expression) 'forced'
to provide housing for them. That's how the relocation
centers came to exist, They were, indeed, required to leave
the military area but I prefer not to say 'forced' because it
creates a false image of soldiers with machine guns rounding
You probably prefer to believe in unicorns as well, despite the fact
that they don't exist (sorry to break that to you.)

"Ironically, nearly 40 percent of the population of Hawaii was of Japanese
decent. The military didn't know what do, because half of the defense team
looked like the enemy. The Nisei, soldiers born from Japanese immigrants,
were rounded up, had their weapons confiscated and held at gunpoint."
Post by WJHopwood
up people like cattle and sending them in box cars to Nazi-style concentration camps. There were a few excesses of course,
Oh, how regrettable. But you're not concerned, because they deserved it
for not being born white.
Post by WJHopwood
but by and large the movements were orderly and the PJAs
found themselves in camps with many more amenities than
the Gis (who had no choice either) had to live in at army and
navy bases.
So, why'd they kick the nisei out of the army and navy? Were they
trying to give them preferential treatment?
Post by WJHopwood
Actually, in living conditions, many PJAs had never had
it so good.
Actually, that's more BS on your part; but if you believe your own drivel,
please explain why those

"Armed guards were posted at the camps, which were all in remote, desolate
areas far from population centers. Internees were typically allowed to
stay with their families, and were treated well unless they violated
the rules. There are documented instances of guards shooting internees
who reportedly attempted to walk outside the fences."
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-04 06:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
sorry long lines
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 12:02:07 AMMerlin Dorfman
Post by Merlin Dorfman
,,, Why would you come to believe the consul was lying
if he didn't give the name(s) of the JAs and detail the
information being obtained by them in that same
message, or any message for that matter. That sort
of information would more likely have gone to Tokyo
by courier.
Was anything found in Japan after the war to indicate
that the names of agents or the information they provided
had been sent by courier?
I doubt it. Japan desroyed mountains of documents
in the interim between the surrender and the beginning
And yet the US found enough documents to prosecute people for various
war crimes, identify and remove puppet companies from zaibatsu, etc.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Merlin Dorfman
Not "forcibly" removed. That's hyperbole.
They were "required" to evacuate designated
military areas.
Some more thoughts on the use of terminology
and avoiding getting bogged down..."Internment"
a definition under the law, one that > implies some
Due Process that was not available to the PJAs, so I
suggest we avoid using this word.
I'm glad you pointed that out. Using "the word
So, you're GLAD he pointed out that due process was not available to the
people of Japanese descent?

I'm glad you finally admitted it.

Mike
Rich Rostrom
2014-11-03 20:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
I just cited 8 sources of evidence for you in
my prior post.
Post by Rich Rostrom
None of which is _evidence_ of a security
threat in _1942_.
Are you that familiar with all 8 of my citations?
I doubt it. You've just got to be kidding.
If a person is charged with a crime, the
indictment is not evidence, It may cite
evidence, it may refer to evidence, but
it is not evidence.

The memos and reports you cited may cite or
refer to evidence, they are not evidence.

Incidentally, I note that of the eight items,
three deal with the Japanese espionage
attempts in 1941 which had long since been
dealt with, and could not in any way be
evidence of security threats in 1942.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
... there is not one scrap of evidence
Not one item of intelligence received from
such agents was ever reported to Japan.
Not one individual such agent was described
in any report, even in general terms.
Come, come. When a consul sent a message
to Tokyo saying he is engaging JAs who work
in aircraft plants to give information on production,
shipments, etc. Why would you come to believe
the consul was lying if he didn't give the name(s)
of the JAs and detail the information being
obtained by them in that same message, or
any message for that matter.
Intelligence is useless if it is not sourced.
Without sourcing, analysts cannot determine
whether an item is accurate, and recipients
have no idea of the reliability of the
information they receive.

(That was the great value of SIGINT such as
MAGIC and ULTRA - it was what enemy personnel
were telling each other. That didn't mean it
was 100% true. I mentioned OSTRO's fraudulent
reports to the Abwehr. Rommel's reports to
OB Sud invariably overstated his logistical
problems. There was an incident where a convoy
was maneuvered to avoid a picket line of U-boats
whose deployment orders had been - but one
captain misread his orders, was far out of
position, and happened to be where the convoy
was sent.)

The complete failure of the consular spies to
provide more than general descriptions of their
alleged sources pretty much demonstrates their
complete failure to recruit useful agents or get
useful intelligence from such agents.

Of course they didn't want to admit this failure,
so they filled their reports with claims that
sounded good and which maybe someday they could
actually achieve.
Post by WJHopwood
That sort of information would more likely have gone
to Tokyo by courier.
That sort of information, from other areas,
_was_ sent by encrypted radiogram. Throughout
the war, the Japanese sent great quantities
of sensitive information by encrypted radiogram.
With a few exceptions (the orders to Kido Butai
for the Pearl Harbor raid) they didn't bother
with couriers for security; they trusted their
cipher systems.

But let's _assume_ that the Japanese consular
spies used couriers for their _substantive_
reports. Even then, one would expect to find
references to these reports in the MAGIC
decrypts - not the content, but notifications
to Tokyo of reports dispatched, acknowledgments
from Tokyo of reports received, comments from
Tokyo on the merits of various reports and
requests for more from various sources.

But there is nothing of this sort in the decrypts.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
...the forcible removal of all West Coast Japanese-Americans
Not "forcibly" removed. That's hyperbole.
They were "required" to evacuate...
Under threat of being dragged away at gunpoint
or shot. Americans are "required" to pay income
taxes in the same way. Those who don't pay are
arrested and imprisoned, with the implicit threat
of violence for resistance. (You could ask actor
Wesley Snipes about this. He bought into one of
the crank "you-don't-have-to-pay-income-tax-because..."
theories, stiffed the U.S. for millions and wound up
doing time in Club Fed.)
Post by WJHopwood
... designated military areas.
The "military areas" in question were the entire
state of California and half of Washington,
Oregon, and Arizona. Only by the most tortured
interpretation could all of this vast area, or
even a substantial part of it, be considered
"military areas".
Post by WJHopwood
Random House Kernerman Webster's
College Dictionary, (c) 2010
An evacuated person.
"A civilian removed from a place of residence
by military direction for reasons of personal
security or the requirements of the military situation."
"personal security" - that is, the security
or safety of the persons evacuated. That
certainly doesn't apply here.

"the requirements of the military situation."

That's a very general phrase, but it implies
that some _military_ activity will occur at
or very close to the place from which the
person is evacuated; as persons displaced to
make way for construction of military facilities
or the deployment of troops for action, or
removed from the site of possible combat action.

None of these seem to apply here either.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
WJHopwood
2014-11-04 23:25:46 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, November 3, 2014 3:39:50 PM Rich
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
I just cited 8 sources of evidence for you in
my prior post.
Post by Rich Rostrom
None of which is _evidence_ of a security
threat in _1942_
The memos and reports you cited may cite or
refer to evidence, they are not evidence.
Come again? You lost me there.
You seem unaware that "evidence" has
several definitions. You are trying to use
the courtroom application which does not
apply in this context. Here is one that
does: Evidence:
"Something that makes plain or
clear; an indication or sign."

The reports I cited were filled with
"indications" and "signs."
Post by Rich Rostrom
Incidentally, I note that of the eight items,
three deal with the Japanese espionage
attempts in 1941 which had long since
been dealt with, and could not in any way
be evidence of security threats in 1942.
The point of the reports was that the
espionage needed to be dealt with--not
that it had been dealt with. You obviously
don't have a clue about the extent pf the
reports.

.> Intelligence is useless if it is not sourced...

The cites I gave were well-sourced .And
while on the subject of "source" i don't see
any sources for any of the emphatic charges
and claims you make in your posts. Where
does your information come from? Do you
dream it up?
Post by Rich Rostrom
That was the great value of SIGINT such as
MAGIC and ULTRA - it was what enemy
personnel were telling each other.
Exactly. But you contradict yourself. You've
been saying all along that MAGIC produced
no "evidence" of espionage. It produced
plenty.
Post by Rich Rostrom
That didn't mean it was 100% true.
In time of war or threat of war, those
responsible for a nation's security must
assume that what the enemy or potential
enemy says, particularly about who its
spies are and what they are doing, may
be true.l
Post by Rich Rostrom
The complete failure of the consular spies
to provide more than... descriptions of their
alleged sources ... demonstrates their...
.... failure to recruit useful agents or get
useful intelligence from such agents.
The description by the consular
personnel was specific enough. They
were reporting to headquarters that
they had employed Japanese-Americans
and resident Japanese aliens to perform
espionage. Had Tokyo required more
than that it would have told the consul
to send more information on them..
As for whether or not they
provided"useful" intellgence to Japan
we don't know. The pre-war messages
were enough to tell U.S.intelligence
officials that such spy work was going
on,and that PJAs were doing it,

WJH
Rich Rostrom
2014-11-05 04:47:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
You are trying to use
the courtroom application which does not
apply in this context. Here is one that
"Something that makes plain or
clear; an indication or sign."
As, for example, a glow in the eastern
sky, which is evidence that the sun is
rising.

Or an odor of urine is evidence of
incontinence.

Or a night secretly spent alone with a
with a possible sex partner is evidence
of a sexual affair.

This definition of evidence refers
to "something", that is "some _thing_".
some object, occurrence, or statement
which is caused by or part of the
the thing it is evidence of.

A statement that there is X is not
evidence of X, even if there is X.

Saying so doesn't make it so.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
Incidentally, I note that of the eight items,
three deal with the Japanese espionage
attempts in 1941 which had long since
been dealt with, and could not in any way
be evidence of security threats in 1942.
The point of the reports was that the
espionage needed to be dealt with--not
that it had been dealt with. You obviously
don't have a clue about the extent pf the
reports.
.> Intelligence is useless if it is not sourced...
The cites I gave were well-sourced...
As usual, you misunderstand, either
willfully or out of inability to read.

Intelligence obtained by _Japan_ from
agents in the U.S. would be useless
to _Japan_ unless it was sourced.

Even a very good intelligence service
collects great amounts of rubbish. The
wheat must be sorted from the chaff.
A report may indicate a valuable
opportunity, or reveal a previously
unknown threat. But before the report
can be acted on, the recipients must
know whether it is likely to be true.

Take for instance the famous "Lost
Order" which Union soldiers found
during the Antietam Campaign. The
document was brought to General McClellan's
headquarters. Like nearly all such
documents of the period, it had been
copied out by a Confederate staff
officer who signed his work (as copyist;
Lee himself signed the order as commander).
This officer had been a pre-war comrade
of one of McClellan's staff, who confirmed
that the order was in that officer's
handwriting, and therefore genuine. It was
validated SIGINT, and thus reliable.

Information from reporting agents is
of highly variable quality. Agents want to
report the most impressive things they can,
either because the more they report, the
more they get paid, or because as True
Believers, they want to do Great Things for
the cause.

A given agent may be very reliable about
some things, and prone to lurid fantasies
about others. It's necessary _know_ which
is which, and what each agent can reliably
know. It would be ridiculous for an agent
who was a bartender in San Diego to report
PacFleet operational orders. How could he
get such information. But that same agent
could report reliably on sailings from
San Diego, or on the deployment of new
weapons in Pacific Fleet ships, picked up
from overhearing the chatter of sailors
in his bar.

"Intelligence" from some unknown Japanese-
American in some unknown location would
be mere gas.
Post by WJHopwood
But you contradict yourself. You've
been saying all along that MAGIC produced
no "evidence" of espionage. It produced plenty.
That's not what I wrote and you know it.

"MAGIC did not show any evidence of wspionage
actually carried out by any such recruited
agents, excluding the feeble efforts already
discovered by the FBI and shut down in 1941."
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
That didn't mean it was 100% true.
In time of war or threat of war, those
responsible for a nation's security must
assume that what the enemy or potential
enemy says, particularly about who its
spies are and what they are doing, may
be true.
What on earth does it mean to "assume"
that something may be true?

Other than to acknowledge a possibility
that cannot be ruled out without other
definitive evidence?
Post by WJHopwood
The description by the consular personnel was
specific enough. They were reporting to headquarters
that they had employed Japanese-Americans and
resident Japanese aliens to perform espionage.
That's your idea of "specific"?

How about this statement:

"Many U.S. warships are en route to Australia."

Would you consider that _specific_ intelligence
about U.S. operations?

Would it be of the slightest use to Japanese
strategists?

What the consular spies wrote was that some
number (never stated) in various places (never
identified) were going to provide them with
intelligence.
Post by WJHopwood
Had Tokyo required more than that it would have told
the consul to send more information on them.
If Japanese intelligence never asked for more
information about these alleged agents, they
would have been among the most incompetent
spymasters in history.
Post by WJHopwood
The pre-war messages were enough to tell
U.S.intelligence officials that such spy work was
going on, and that PJAs were doing it,
That the Japanese consular spies claimed they
were _going_ to obtain such spy work from
Japanese-Americans.

They didn't show that any such spy work was
actually going on, other than what they
already knew about.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-01 03:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
Post by Rich Rostrom
What other evidence of any kind was there
that Japanese-Americans represented any
significant security risk at the time of
the mass internments?
What other such evidence have you cited?
None that I can recall.
Then you haven't been paying attention. A
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
In Ringle's own words
"
(h) That, in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been magnified
out of its true proportion, largely because of the physical
characteristics of the people; that it is no more serious that the
problems of the German, Italian, and Communistic portions of the
United States population, and, finally that it should be handled
on the basis of the individual, regardless of citizenship, and not
on a racial basis.

(i) That the above opinions are and will continue to be true just
so long as these people, Issei and Nisei, are given an opportunity
to be self-supporting, but that if conditions continue in the trend
they appear to be taking as of this date; i.e., loss of employment
and income due to anti-Japanese agitation by and among Caucasian
Americans, continued personal attacks by Filipinos and other racial
groups, denial of relief funds to desperately needy cases, cancellation
of licenses for markets, produce houses, stores, etc., by California
State authorities, discharges from jobs by the wholesale, unnecessarily
harsh restrictions on travel, including discriminatory regulations
against all Nisei preventing them from engaging in commercial
fishing--there will most certainly be outbreaks of sabotage, riots,
and other civil strife in the not too distant future."

But you have, in the past, deliberately misrepresented Ringle's opinions
and views.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-11-02 04:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
What other evidence...was there
that Japanese-Americans represented any
... security risk ...? What other such evidence
have you cited? one that I can recall.
Then you haven't been paying attention. A
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
In Ringle's own words
(h) That, in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been
magnified out of its true proportion, largely because of the
physical characteristics of the people; ....that it should be
handled on the basis of the individual, regardless of
citizenship, and not on a racial basis.
Of course you neglected to say that in the same report Ringle
also said that he considered only some 75% of the
American-borne to be loyal to the U.S. leaving some 25%
(apprx 10,000 ) for whom loyalty was in doubt. (See my prior
post for his exact words he used.)
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
(i) That the above opinions are and will continue to be true just
so long as these people, Issei and Nisei, are given an opportunity
to be self-supporting, but that if conditions continue in the trend
they appear to be taking.....there will most certainly be outbreaks
of sabotage, riots, and other civil strife in the not too distant future."
.... you have, in the past, deliberately misrepresented Ringle's opinions
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
and views.
No, I've merely pointed out that he was guilty of double-speak. For
instance, after telling us that, in effect, there were some 50,000 PJAs
(alien and citizen) whom he considered of doubtful loyalty to the
U.S. he also gave a long sob story about how the PJAs had had
a tough life, etc then warns of sabotage and civil disturbance
unless his recommendations are followed. He then proceeds to
recommend almost exactly what was done, i.e.
"(a) provide some means whereby potentially dangerous
United Strates cirizens may be held in acustodial detention
as well as aliens. It is submitted that in a ;military theatre of
operations'--- which at present includes all the West Coast,
this might be done by review of individual cases by boards
composed of Military intelligence ,Naval Intelligence, and the
Department of Justice."
As it happened, Ringle, being a lower ranking officer
in the field was unaware of intelligence which was privy to the
top commanders in Washington which led to the decision
by the President to issue his E.O..9066 authorizing the exclusion
of "any or all" persons from designated military areas---said
action known therefore as the "evacuation of the PJÃ…s from
the West Coast."

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-02 19:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
What other evidence...was there
that Japanese-Americans represented any
... security risk ...? What other such evidence
have you cited? one that I can recall.
Then you haven't been paying attention. A
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
In Ringle's own words
(h) That, in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been
magnified out of its true proportion, largely because of the
physical characteristics of the people; ....that it should be
handled on the basis of the individual, regardless of
citizenship, and not on a racial basis.
Of course you neglected to say that in the same report Ringle
also said that he considered only some 75% of the
That's not what he said, which you would know if you actually read the
memo (again, not the first time you've been involved in misrepresenting
him. So either you don't speak English well, or you are dishonest.

In fact, what I wrote was his statement AFTER he had laid out his
presentation of facts. Thus, after examining all potential disloyals, his
recommendation is that the nisei be treated as individuals. Not sure why
that very simple concept is so foreign to you.

Indeed, he recommends that they be treated the same as any other ethnic
group. Indeed, something you intentionally deleted was
"that it is no more serious that the
problems of the German, Italian, and Communistic portions of the
United States population,"

So, Ringle is recommending that those of Japanese descent be treated like
those of Italian or German (ie, white) descent.

Yet you seem to believe Ringle supports you.
Post by WJHopwood
American-borne to be loyal to the U.S. leaving some 25%
(apprx 10,000 ) for whom loyalty was in doubt. (See my prior
post for his exact words he used.)
Why should I see your prior post? I have the entire memo here, and have posted
it before. He did not say "25% of the nisei loyalty to the US is in
doubt". He stated, flatly, "at least seventy-five percent are loyal to the US."
He then lays out the characteristics of some of those whose loyalty MAY
be in doubt and indicates most of THAT group is already under observation,
or in custody.

However, Mr Hopwood, which white groups would you recommend rounding up
and putting in concentration camps if someone actually said "only 75%
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
(i) That the above opinions are and will continue to be true just
so long as these people, Issei and Nisei, are given an opportunity
to be self-supporting, but that if conditions continue in the trend
they appear to be taking.....there will most certainly be outbreaks
of sabotage, riots, and other civil strife in the not too distant future."
.... you have, in the past, deliberately misrepresented Ringle's opinions
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
and views.
No, I've merely pointed out that he was guilty of double-speak. For
No, he was "guilty" of laying out a case, presenting the issues at hand.
This is called "nuance", and is distressing to small minds, as it
often happens in real life that issues can have many facets.
Post by WJHopwood
(alien and citizen) whom he considered of doubtful loyalty to the
U.S. he also gave a long sob story about how the PJAs had had
No, he didn't. Again, your language fail you. He mentioned several
DIFFERENT groups of potentially disloyal persons, and laid out
reasons they might be considered as such.
Post by WJHopwood
a tough life, etc then warns of sabotage and civil disturbance
unless his recommendations are followed. He then proceeds to
recommend almost exactly what was done, i.e.
No, he recommended it only for those disloyal, or potentially so. He
recommended AGAINST doing it for the entire group of issei/nisei/sansei.
Post by WJHopwood
As it happened, Ringle, being a lower ranking officer
Represented the first 2 references you hilarilously claim support your
racist rants.

Really, when you sneer at your own references, you really can't expect
the rest of us to take you seriously.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-11-03 01:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:11:59 PM
Post by WJHopwood
1. Ringle "The Japanese Question"
2. Ringle "Japanese Menace on Terminal Island"
And in fact, Ringle's conclusions are the opposite of
Hopwood's.
There you go again, Misrepresenting as usual.
Nope; quoting.
Post by WJHopwood
Ringle's conclusion was certainly not the opposite of
"The primary and future problem is that of dealing
with these American-borne Unite States citizens
of Japanese ancestry, of whom it is considered
lthat least seventy--five percent are loyal to the
United Strates" .
So, you see that even Ringle himself considered that
the loyalty of up to 25% of the japanese-Americans
was questionable. That would have been approximately
10,000 JAs..
Nope.
You are again ignoring all the parts that directly dispute your r
acial stance.
"(h) That, in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been
magnified out of its true proportion, largely because of the
physical characteristics of the people; that it is no more
serious that the problems of the German, Italian, and
Communistic portions of the United States population, and,
finally that it should be handled on the basis of the individual,
regardless of citizenship, and not on a racial basis."
Can't you do better than that? That's doesn't negate one word
of what Ringle said about only 75% being loyal. Do the
arithmetic. Where does that leave the other 25%? Ringle can't
vouch for them. Apparently you just can't help yourself from
making irrational statemenrs when your obsession with"race"
gets in your way of the truth, let alone good manners.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
"That of the Japanese-borne alien residents, the
large majority ....would knowingly do nothing
....to the injury of the United States, but at the
You seem to be deliberately cutting things that refute
"That of the Japanese-born alien residents, the large
majority are at least passively loyal to the United States.
That is, they > would knowingly do nothing what ever to
the injury of the United States, but at the same time
would not do anything to the injury of Japan."
Let the readers see who is really being dishonest here.
Just above you did not quote the entirety of what I wrote.
Why not the whole quote? Ypur chicanery is showing
again Here it is again with bottom part you cut out left on..:
"That of the Japanese-borne alien residents, the
large majority ....would knowingly do nothing
....to the injury of the United States, but at the
same time might well do nothing to the injury
of Japan....most of the remainder would not
engage in active sabotage or insurrection,
BUT MIGHT WELL DO SURREPTIOUS
OBSERVATION WORK FOR JAPANESE
INTERESTS IF GIVEN A CONVENIENT
OPPORTUNITY." (Emphasis mine)
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
However, save those who had already served in the US
military and received honorable discharges, ALL those
born in Japan were non-citizens, and so are not in the s
ame group as the nisei, are they, Mr Hopwood?
So what. The above refers only to the Japanese-borne.
Why don't you stop throwing up transparent diversions
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Or are you confused as the definitions involve?
Post by WJHopwood
. BUT MIGHT WELL DO SURREPTIOUS
.> OBSERVATION WORK FOR JAPANESE
Post by WJHopwood
INTERESTS IF GIVEN A CONVENIENT
OPPORTUNITY." (Emphasis mine)
Of course the emphasis is yours. Just as the deliberate
<UTF16-2028> omission of are at least passively loyal to the United
States." was yours.
The small part I removed for brevity did not change the
substance of the Ringle paragraph one iota, But the words
in caps just above which you cut cut and restored separately
out of context are simply evidence of your bad faith.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-03 06:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
"(h) That, in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been
magnified out of its true proportion, largely because of the
physical characteristics of the people; that it is no more
serious that the problems of the German, Italian, and
Communistic portions of the United States population, and,
finally that it should be handled on the basis of the individual,
regardless of citizenship, and not on a racial basis."
Can't you do better than that? That's doesn't negate one word
of what Ringle said about only 75% being loyal. Do the
He didn't say that; he said "at least seventy-five percent" are loyal

Only
Post by WJHopwood
making irrational statemenrs when your obsession with"race"
You DO realize that Ringle represented 2 of the so-called 8 references
you posted? So, in RINGLE'S words (and, by extension, yours, a
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
"That of the Japanese-borne alien residents, the
large majority ....would knowingly do nothing
....to the injury of the United States, but at the
You seem to be deliberately cutting things that refute
"That of the Japanese-born alien residents, the large
majority are at least passively loyal to the United States.
That is, they > would knowingly do nothing what ever to
the injury of the United States, but at the same time
would not do anything to the injury of Japan."
Let the readers see who is really being dishonest here.
I believe they see that clearly.
Post by WJHopwood
Just above you did not quote the entirety of what I wrote.
Why not the whole quote? Ypur chicanery is showing
You didn't provide the whole quote. As you cannot, I shall.

That of the Japanese-born alien residents, the large majority
are at least passively loyal to the United States. That is, they
would knowingly do nothing what ever to the injury of the United
States, but at the same time would not do anything to the injury
of Japan. Also, most might well do surreptitious observation work
for Japanese interests if given a convenient opportunity.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
However, save those who had already served in the US
military and received honorable discharges, ALL those
born in Japan were non-citizens, and so are not in the s
ame group as the nisei, are they, Mr Hopwood?
So what.
The above refers only to the Japanese-borne.
Uh, yeah, hence my statement "ALL those born in Japan". Very good.
You can eventually follow a thread.

Now, they wouldn't be nisei, would they? So, they wouldn't be US citizens,
would they? Constitutionally guaranteed certain rights, and all.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by WJHopwood
INTERESTS IF GIVEN A CONVENIENT
OPPORTUNITY." (Emphasis mine)
Of course the emphasis is yours. Just as the deliberate
<UTF16-2028> omission of are at least passively loyal to the United
States." was yours.
The small part I removed for brevity did not change the
You continually change the emphasis on things. Indeed, others on this thread
have called you on that very habit.

Mike
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-01 04:28:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
Accordingly it seemed apparent to some
(including yourself) that I had made a claim
that the names of spies had been mentioned
in the Magic intercepts, whereas I have
consistently said just the opposite.
You have asserted many times that the content
of MAGIC decrypts justified the mass internment
of Japanese-Americans.
What I said is that intelligence obtained from Magic
was ONE of the reasons for the evacuation decision
I didn't say it was the sole reason. On a number
the problem is, is that it's a pathetic reason.
Post by WJHopwood
deny that they admitted that loud and clear. It's
just plain silly to pretend they didn'r mean what
they said. Just "blowing smoke." as you put it.
You mean like when they told Hitler that Midway was a victory.
Post by WJHopwood
Incidentally, you are mistaken to use the
phrase "mass internment" as you do above.
No, he isn't; they were confined to specific concentration camps. That
is "internment", your delicate sensibilities notwithstanding.
Post by WJHopwood
Internment was not "evacuation" nor was it
conducted "en masse."
When you take every memeber of a group from a given area, that is by
definition "en masse"
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
It was pointed out that not one of the
Japanese-Americans interned in 1942 was
ever convicted or even charged with espionage
on the basis of MAGIC sigint, even after
the war when the MAGIC operation was
disclosed to the public.
So what? That means nothing. After the war
only bare-bones info about Magic became
public knowledge. The intelligence professionals
wanted to keep it that way inasmuch as many
Then it was stupid of them to introduce intercepts into international
war crimes trials.
Post by WJHopwood
of the same sources and methods were still i
n use during the cold war as well as for years
thereafter.
You are confused; the methods are not the intercepts.

You're welcome.

Mike
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-11-02 19:39:44 UTC
Permalink
The published magic decrypts come in 5 volumes, with,
respectively 417, 1,172, 1,322, 1,214 and 104 messages,
counting any parts A and B as 1 message, so around
4,300 messages. The books number each volume's
messages from 1 onwards, so below IV.367 is volume IV
message 367.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WJHopwood
Accordingly it seemed apparent to some
(including yourself) that I had made a claim
that the names of spies had been mentioned
in the Magic intercepts, whereas I have
consistently said just the opposite.
You have asserted many times that the content
of MAGIC decrypts justified the mass internment
of Japanese-Americans.
What I said is that intelligence obtained from Magic
was ONE of the reasons for the evacuation decision
I didn't say it was the sole reason. On a number
of occasions the Magic intercepts revealed that
Japan was using resident Japanese and PJAs
borne in the U.S., the latter being referred to as
("our second generations) for espionage.
Please specify number. Volume I.119 from Tokyo talks
about using second people generation carefully.

Then comes the series of replies to the request for
numbers of first and second generation Japanese at
various parts of the continental US.

Then comes the statement in No. I.174, "We shall maintain
connection with our second generations who are at present in
the (U.S.) Army, to keep us informed of various developments
in the Army. We also have connections with our second
generations working in airplane plants for intelligence purposes. "

We shall, not we are.

I.175 says second generation Japanese will do something but
that section of the economic section is missing. The people in
the army are mentioned again, this time from Seattle versus
I.174 being from Los Angeles. A first generation person is
being used to set up meetings with the Labor unions and a
second generation person to collect intelligences about

"anti-participation organizations and the anti-Jewish movement"

So I gather "a number" is 2? Or does I.119 push it to 3?, II.393
eligible?

III.379 from San Francisco to Mexico City talks about how most
Japanese are settled and includes statements like they are
"anxious to remain here even though there is a break in Japanese
American relations"

The embassy is undertaking encouragement work to counter this.
Post by WJHopwood
You can't
deny that they admitted that loud and clear. It's
just plain silly to pretend they didn'r mean what
they said. Just "blowing smoke." as you put it.
Actually going and reading the messages makes it rather clear
the people referred to are maybe going to be used (1.119), are
going to be used in I.175, and I.176 though now you need to show
they were passing classified information instead of simply
answering questions about what they were doing, what they knew
or their opinions, like for example those people mentioned in II.219.
Post by WJHopwood
Incidentally, you are mistaken to use the
phrase "mass internment" as you do above.
Internment was not "evacuation" nor was it
conducted "en masse."
Everyone going is not en masse?
Post by WJHopwood
ir was a stand-alone procedure separately
administered by the Dept. of Justice, not the War
Relocarion Aurthority, It applied only to enemy
aliens who had received individual hearings
before enemy alien review boards.
Yet all those Japanese failed and few others joined them.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
It was pointed out that not one of the
Japanese-Americans interned in 1942 was
ever convicted or even charged with espionage
on the basis of MAGIC sigint, even after
the war when the MAGIC operation was
disclosed to the public.
So what? That means nothing.
No evidence is rather nothing.
Post by WJHopwood
After the war
only bare-bones info about Magic became
public knowledge. The intelligence professionals
wanted to keep it that way inasmuch as many
of the same sources and methods were still i
n use during the cold war as well as for years
thereafter.
Right, you are so sure about the conclusion the evidence
does not need to be presented.

Meantime, back at the electronic copy of the messages,

There are lots of messages discussing intelligence without
stating the source, the following are some highlights, fell free
to add other relevant messages. Like all the other messages
you imply exist talking about ethnic Japanese spies in the US.

The rest of this post is simply copies or paraphrases of
magic messages.

I.37, Shanghai, 16 April 1941, discovering US fuel shipments to China

No. I.75
FROM: Washington (Nomura) May 20, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 327.

INTELLIGENCE:

Though I do not know which ones, I have discovered that the United States is
reading some of our codes.
As for how I got the intelligence, I will inform you by courier or another
safe way.


No. I.114
FROM: Tokyo (Matsuoka) February 5, 1941
TO: Washington (Koshi) # 056.

In connection with New York to Tokyo message # 763, [b] the business men
(including Sumitomo's representatives) and representatives of newspapers
were invited to call here. One of my men discussed the following points with
them:
(1) To have the various representatives of business firms engage in
collecting intelligence material.
(2) To have all such representatives abroad (in the United States) cable
their opinions and manipulations in so far as they are related to politics,
through diplomatic channels so as to maintain secrecy.
We were able to obtain their agreement to cooperate with us in this respect,
so please proceed with this program.
We have the perfect understanding and agreement of the Army and Navy in this
connection. They promise to give us whatever aid they can.

[a] See I, 112. "With the appointment of Ambassador Nomura we wish to
formulate a definite plan for our propaganda and information gathering work
by seeking cooperation of Japanese bank and business officials in the U.S."
[b] Refers to above message and lists 18 Japanese organs in New York as
potential sources of information.


I.115, New York to Tokyo, 11 December 1940, extract, "The set-up of the
press attaché should be concentrated on the task of assembling information
and of widening the intelligence net and its personnel. Especial effort
should be made to establish personal contacts with the members of the press
and persons influential in American politics and business. The intelligence
net should be so organized as to be able to function, even if there should
be a severance of diplomatic and commercial relations between Japan and the
U.S."

I.118, Tokyo to Washington, 30 January 1941, de emphasise propaganda,
increase intelligence.

I.119, Tokyo to Washington, 30 January 1941, on intelligence gathering, an
extract,
"(3) Make a survey of all persons or organizations which either openly or
secretly oppose participation in the war.
(4) Make investigations of all anti-Semitism, communism, movements of
Negroes, and labor movements.
(5) Utilization of U.S. citizens of foreign extraction (other than
Japanese), aliens (other than Japanese), communists, Negroes, labor union
members, and anti-Semites, in carrying out the investigations described in
the preceding paragraph would undoubtedly bear the best results.
These men, moreover, should have access to governmental establishments,
(laboratories?), governmental organizations of various characters,
factories, and transportation facilities.
(6) Utilization of our "Second Generations" and our resident nationals. (In
view of the fact that if there is any slip in this phase, our people in the
U.S. will be subjected to considerable persecution, and the utmost caution
must be exercised).
(7) In the event of U.S. participation in the war, our intelligence set-up
will be moved to Mexico, making that country the nerve center of our
intelligence net. Therefore, will you bear in mind and in anticipation of
such an eventuality, set up facilities for a U.S.-Mexico international
intelligence route. This net which will cover Brazil, Argentina, Chile, and
Peru will also be centered in Mexico.
(8) We shall cooperate with the German and Italian intelligence organs in
the U.S. This phase has been discussed with the Germans and Italians in
Tokyo, and it has been approved. "


I.129, Tokyo to Mexico 5 February 1941, circular, information orgainisation,
point 3 is keep contact with German and Italian "organs", point 4, "To
organize Japanese residents, including newspaper men and business firms for
the purpose of gathering information. Care should be taken not to give cause
for suspicion of espionage activities."

I.137, Washington to Mexico, 15 February 1941, "Advise by official
communication, by air, in the same manner as last year, as to military
counter espionage."

I.140, Tokyo to Rome, 15 February 1941, increase in counter espionage
efforts

I.162, Tokyo to Washington, 1 April 1941, extract, "In the event of war we
think that the Labor Unions will become a major political factor in
hindering unity in the United States. In the future arrange to get in touch
with the leaders of labor unions, the Communist Party, the Socialist Party,
and other anti-ROOSEVELT movements. At the same time, I would like to have
you study the possibility of using such a person as (IKU ?) O OYAMA [a]."
[a] A self-exiled Japanese Socialist now in residence at Northwestern
University in Evanston, Illinois.

I.166, Vancouver to Tokyo, 28 April 1941, "This office is at present
employing a spy (an Irishman with Communist Party affiliations) and is
having him collect information of this nature."

I.167 to 171, Request from Tokyo and replies in April 1941 about numbers of
first and second generation Japanese present in San Francisco, New York,
Portland, Vancouver

I.174, Los Angeles to Tokyo, 9 May 1941, regarding establishing intelligence
networks,

"We are doing everything in our power to establish outside contacts in
connection with our efforts to gather intelligence material. In this regard,
we have decided to make use of white persons and Negroes, through Japanese
persons whom we can't trust completely. (It not only would be very difficult
to hire U.S. (military ?) experts for this work at the present time, but the
expenses would be exceedingly high.) We shall, furthermore, maintain close
connections with the Japanese Association, the Chamber of Commerce, and the
newspapers.
With regard to airplane manufacturing plants and other military
establishments in other parts, we plan to establish very close relations
with various organizations and in strict secrecy have them keep these
military establishments under close surveillance. Through such means, we
hope to be able to obtain accurate and detailed intelligence reports. We
have already established contacts with absolutely reliable Japanese in the
San Pedro and San Diego area, who will keep a close watch on all shipments
of airplanes and other war materials, and report the amounts and
destinations of such shipments. The same steps have been taken with regard
to traffic across the U.S.-Mexico border.
We shall maintain connection with our second generations who are at present
in the (U.S.) Army, to keep us informed of various developments in the Army.
We also have connections with our second generations working in airplane
plants for intelligence purposes.
With regard to the Navy, we are cooperating with our Naval Attaché's office,
and are submitting reports as accurately and as speedily as possible.
We are having Nakazawa investigate and summarize information gathered
through first hand and newspaper reports, with regard to military movements,
labor disputes, communistic activities and other similar matters. With
regard to anti-Jewish movements, we are having investigations made by both
prominent Americans and Japanese who are connected with the movie industry
which is centered in this area. We have already established connections with
very influential Negroes to keep us informed with regard to the Negro
movement. "


I.175, Seattle to Tokyo, 11 May 1941,regaring intelligence collecting,
2. Economic Contacts.
We are using foreign company employees, as well as employees in our own
companies here, for the collection of intelligences having to do with
economics along the lines of the construction of ships, the number of
airplanes produced and their various types, the production of copper, zinc
and aluminum, the yield of tin for cans, and lumber. We are now exerting our
best efforts toward the acquisition of such intelligences through competent
Americans. From an American, whom we contacted recently, we have received a
private report on machinists of German origin who are Communists and members
of the labor organizations in the Bremerton Naval Yard and Boeing airplane
factory. Second generation Japanese ----- ----- -----.
3. Military Contacts.
We are securing intelligences concerning the concentration of warships
within the Bremerton Naval Yard, information with regard to mercantile
shipping and airplane manufacturer, movements of military forces, as well as
that which concerns troop maneuvers.
With this as a basis, men are sent out into the field who will contact Lt.
Comdr. OKADA, and such intelligences will be wired to you in accordance with
past practice. KANEKO is in charge of this. Recently we have on two
occasions made investigations on the spot of various military establishments
and concentration points in various areas. For the future we have made
arrangements to collect intelligences from second generation Japanese
draftees on matters dealing with the troops, as well as troop speech and
behavior. ----- ----- -----.
4. Contacts With Labor Unions.
The local labor unions A.F. of L. and C.I.O. have considerable influence.
The (Socialist ?) Party maintains an office here (its political sphere of
influence extends over twelve zones.) The C.I.O., especially, has been very
active here. We have had a first generation Japanese, who is a member of the
labor movement and a committee chairman, contact the organizer, and we have
received a report, though it is but a resume, on the use of American members
of the (Socialist ?) Party. ----- OKAMARU is in charge of this.
5. In order to contact Americans of foreign extraction and foreigners, in
addition to third parties, for the collection of intelligences with regard
to anti-participation organizations and the anti-Jewish movement, we are
making use of a second generation Japanese lawyer.

No. I.196
FROM: Honolulu (Okuda) March 1, 1941
TO: Tokyo (Gaimudaijin) # 036.

On the 28th, the local Federal Grand Jury indicted 71 persons who owned
fishing boats, (the majority of whom were Japanese), under Article 88 on
charges of conspiracy. The presidents of three fishing companies operated by
Japanese were also indicted.
The U.S. law reads that captains of all fishing boats over 5 tons must be
U.S. citizens. It is specifically charged that first generation Japanese
have forged bills of sale and made second generation Japanese as nominal
owners of these vessels. It is charged that in this transaction conspiracy
was involved.
This is a similar incident to that which recently arose in Los Angeles, and
developments are being watched with considerable anxiety.
Relayed to Washington. Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle.

I.202 Tokyo to Washington, 28 February 1941, report on Currie mission to
China, including a Chinese spy report.


No. I.213
FROM: Tokyo April 1, 1941
TO: Hongkong # 75.

After working out a plan to have some Chinese at your disposal, to mingle
directly or indirectly through local contacts (for instance, To, etc.) with
Chinese residents in Manila for the purpose of obtaining intelligence
regarding the extent of their participation in the defense program (or the
Islands), which may be useful to us in our future plans, please take
necessary steps, on my responsibility, if the reply [a] to my message # 103
[a] to Manila warrants it.

[a] See I, 214.


No. I.214
FROM: Tokyo April 1, 1941
TO: Manila # 103.

(Secret.)

Regarding your # 129 [a].

After referring to this Minister's message to Hongkong # 75 [b], please
check up on the extent of participation by the Chinese residents in the
Philippines' defense plan and wire same to Hongkong. Also depending on
conditions there, please consider extending our activities along the lines
of my message # 75 [b].

[a]Not available.
[b] See I, 213.


No. I.230
FROM: London (Japanese Ambassador) April 25, 1941
TO: Washington (Japanese Ambassador) No number.

Action Tokyo as # 301.

Intelligence report (23rd).

According to what the informant heard from BIDERU [a].
(1) Every American official in Europe is said to have recently informed his
government of the immediate need of some sort of naval aid to Britain and it
appears that steps are about to be taken toward realizing this end.
A-123

(2) According to SUTAINHARUTO's [b] report, the U.S.S.R. has warned Turkey
to resist Germany's attack, on the threat that the U.S.S.R. herself will
walk into Turkey in self defense.
Relayed to Washington.

[a] Anthony J. Drexel Biddle, Jr., U.S. Ambassador to the governments of
Norway, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium.
[b] Laurence A. Steinhardt, U.S. Ambassador to U.S.S.R.


No. I.231
FROM: Tokyo (Matsuoka) March 8, 1941
TO: Rio de Janeiro # 41.

In view of the fact that there are those whom we suspect of working as
intelligence agents for their homelands among the British and American
(especially English) firms who are acting as agents for our shipping
companies in Latin America, this office, after consultation with the home
offices of the related shipping companies, has drawn up the following
regulations:
1. We shall use, wherever possible, Japanese companies abroad as agencies.
2. In the event that this is impossible, we shall use foreign companies
other than English and American (companies operated by Germans or other
nationals) as agencies.
3. In the event that it is essential that we continue to use English and
American agencies, we will exercise careful surveillance over their
activities, and we have decided that we shall endeavor to use them in
gathering intelligences.
With this as a basis, I want you to pay careful attention to their
activities wherever located, and should anything to our disadvantage
develop, inform me on each occasion of all the circumstances and give me
your opinions as to counter-policies that we should carry out in each case.

II.186, Washington to Tokyo, 28 July 1941, US using powers of Espionage act
when asset freezing

II.248, Tokyo to Manila, 1 JUly 1941, check reported USN increase in
espionage and ounter espionage.

II.250 Davao to Tokyo, 18 July 1941, "According to a spy, it seems, in view
of the rapid turnover of Americans having charge of stevedores who are being
used in customs duty, as well as by us here for observation of American
submarines entering port, that investigation and collection of intelligence
regarding Japanese vessels and Japanese persons in this area is being
carried out by British and American authorities"


No. I.257
FROM: Berlin April 14, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 407.

Intelligence wires emanating from our offices in the Near East and Egypt to
our offices in Germany and Italy should be appropriately paraphrased before
transmitting their contents to the German and Italian authorities. This
procedure is advisable in order that there be no danger of giving the German
and Italian authorities clues in decoding our codes. Therefore, in
intelligences of this type emanating from that area, the "I" code and the
"SO" code should be discontinued, using only the more efficient "O" code. In
communicating other secret matters

I would like to have you use the "TSU" code and other appropriate codes.
Please follow this procedure.
Relayed to Italy and Turkey.

Trans. 4-16-41

No. I. 258
FROM: Tokyo (Konoe)
TO: Berlin
April 16, 1941

# 329.

Secret.

Re your # 407 [a].

We suspect that the several codes I, SO and OITE are being cryptanalyzed by
foreign powers and today we have none too many code books to spare.
Therefore, when it is necessary to send a message, and at the same time
insure its secrecy, please dispatch them by machine or by TSU code. In case
revelation of the contents are made to foreign powers, take care to
paraphrase them from beginning to end. I want you to use OITE for messages
of relatively slight importance.
Relay to Italy and Turkey.

[a] See I, 257. Berlin tells Tokyo that intelligence wires emanating from
Japanese offices in the Near East and Egypt to offices in Germany and Italy
should be appropriately paraphrased before transmitting their contents to
the Germans and Italians in order to avoid giving them clues in decoding
Japanese codes. Berlin recommends use of certain codes in this connection.


No. I.397
FROM: Tokyo (Matsuoka)
TO: Bangkok April 24, 1941
# 222.

Strictly secret outside the department.

To be handled in Government code.

Re my # 167 [a].

According to an unimpeachable report, as a result of a secret investigation
recently carried on by the Netherlands Ministry in Bangkok, it was found
that a native employee of this ministry had possession of keys to all the
safes and was in contact with the Japanese Military Attaché. A British
Attaché in Bangkok has made a telegraphic report of these facts so, for the
time being, please stop the schemes we had afoot.

[a] Tokyo tells Bangkok telegraphic clerk IT O will leave Tokyo on the 5th
in order to transmit intelligence received directly.


No. I.403
FROM: Batavia (Isizawa) January 2, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 5.
Post by WJHopwood
From the 4th we plan to begin general intelligence work. Has there been any
change in wave length? Please let me know immediately.


II.219, Washington to Tokyo, 19 May 1941 on intelligence gathering,
"5. A summary of the present state of the policy is as follows:
We are making personal contacts on every hand. However, at this place and in
New York we are continuing the existing formal contacts and gathering secret
information. In addition, to this, the officer in charge of intelligence has
contacts with:
(A) J, and W, who are in close touch with the President and his wife.
The President is cultivating power through the "relief workers" and the "W.
P. A." and other agencies. In addition to this, since his third term anyone
who opposes him becomes the target of his attacks and his dictatorial
tendencies are becoming more marked, therefore it is natural that we should
pay special attention to those in close touch with him.
One or two items regarding Roosevelt's position: Evidence was brought out in
the Senate to the effect that the former Ambassador to England, Kennedy, had
not paid his 1932 income tax, but the President maintained silence.
According to other secret information, Wilkie had a secret understanding
with Roosevelt and attacked him in his public speeches more than was
necessary as a Presidential candidate and enjoyed scandalizing public
opinion, however, had he by any chance become President he would have become
a mere puppet of Roosevelt. Again, ----- told Terazaki that originally he
was an isolationist, but that now in view of the opposition he was keeping
silent. Six months from now if he said he were an isolationist he would not
be able to go about in safety.
(B) W of the State Department.
When Terazaki was a student at Brown University he became well acquainted
with W.
(C) G of the Senate.
When Terazaki was in Brown University he was greatly helped by this G.
(D) The relationship of the "America First Committee" to Lindberg and W.
Every time Lindberg makes a speech the German newspapers approve and
American newspaper reporters in Germany write it up and American newspapers
make a big thing of it so that the impression is conveyed that Lindberg is
an agent of Germany. Because of this, Lindberg and the Committee are very
perplexed and according to W, Lindberg has been cautioned by the German
Embassy. Since then he has been in touch with W.
(E) D, an Irish American.
D told our intelligence officer that a Jewish American Justice of the
Supreme Court, Frankfurter, was packing the key posts of the government with
Jewish Americans. But that American antipathy toward Jews is increasing to
such an extent that eventually anti-Jewish influence would prevail.
(F) Persons with religious affiliations. (1) Catholic. (2) Protestant. (3)
Undecided.
The Catholics are the ones who are concerned in the present negotiations.
(G) The Brown University Club.
This meets regularly once a month and at other times at which times he
(Terazaki) is present. "


No. II. 262
FROM: Manila (Nihro) August 4, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 480.

Intelligence of primary order.

1. Two destroyers sailed on the fourth. All the war ships at anchor have
sailed. There are, however, several small destroyers in the neighborhood of
Corregidor [a]. (This was observed by the crews of the Koden Maru and the
Kaischu Maru.)
2. About six hundred American soldiers have arrived in Manila on the
Coolidge. (This was learned from the crew of the Coolidge.)
________________________________________
[a] An island in Cavite Province at the entrance of Manila Bay.


II.289, Hollywood to Washington, 10 June 1941, dealing with supporting the
chauffeur of Tachibana who was a "Japanese Naval Language Official who has
been held on charges of espionage"


No. II.353
FROM: San Francisco (Muto) June 28, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 109.

(3 part message complete.)

Secret outside the Department.

1. This Silver Shirt movement was founded in 1934 as a juridical person
under Delaware law. It is anti communistic and anti Jewish, and has
representatives in every state, all led by Chief PELLEY, and at one time had
30 or 40 thousand regular members.
Lecture societies were organized and they distributed their weekly
mouthpiece and books and pamphlets written by PELLEY and THORKELSON, who,
until last year, was a republican congressman from Montana. Their line of
propaganda is as follows:
The administrative and juridical branches of the ROOSEVELT administration
are shot through with international Judaism and communism and is coming
under the influence of the British royalty, which is under the thumb of
these elements. America must be defended from them. America's foreign policy
must be to save the human race from the enslaving grasp of the international
Jews. As for the Orient, the United States must not interfere. As for
Europe, the United States must not interfere. She must look after herself.
The Silver Shirts organization is being investigated by the DIES committee
as a 5th column activity (volume 6 of this committee's report) and cannot
act openly. Last year, either under legal pressure or of its own accord, it
dissolved and began an underground movement. However, its weekly mouthpiece
and other publications are being shipped from Indianapolis and distributed
all over the country. It seems that this is being accomplished through huge
special contributions. (According to the DIES investigation, those
contributors alone who have been so far discovered, for a year and a half,
beginning in 1937, had contributed $66,000.)
2. Well, I had INAGAKI confer with IWASAKI, who said that on April 20th he
had first received an offer from PELLEY, at whose suggestion he sent a
letter the last of April to Lt. Col. SUGITA, of the Headquarters of the
General Staff (who will tell you all about it) asking if the Japanese
government would not help out with the Plans; and that again he had asked
JIRO KOGA of the Society of Brethren Overseas to contact the German
Ambassador in Tokyo in case Japan could not grant this help.
Since then I understand that PELLEY has asked time and again if we had a
reply, but I fear this plan could hardly succeed in America under the
present conditions. I think it would be dangerous for us to have anything to
do with this. IWASAKI lost faith in the guy because of his past failures but
the fellow is a very earnest and studious man. He concentrates on the Jewish
problem, and is possessed with Pelleyism. Already he has, it seems,
furnished the Chief of Staff with pertinent information, and, remembering
the KOJIMA affair in Los Angeles, I think we should make use of him after
fully instructing him. I want to give him
$500 with which to settle his accounts and enough money to travel second
class in Japan for about three months; so please wire back at once.
I am shipping the Silver Shirts printed matter.


No. II.356
FROM: Washington (Nomura) July 4, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 468.

(Part 1 of 3.)

1. Approximately 25 % of the total population of the United States is Negro.
In the north, centering around New York and Chicago, there is a movement to
equalize the status of these people. They are being educated along general
sociological lines, and gradually their political position is being
equalized. In last year's presidential election, one Congressman, two state
Senators, 50 members of state Legislatures, and two Justices were elected
from among the Negro population. But still the political strength of the
Negro organization can be used much to our advantage, so long as the bread
and butter of the Negro depend so utterly upon the white man. Taking
advantage of their economic unrest, we might use them to slacken the
progress of the United States' plans for national defense and economy as
well as for sabotage. However, I must point out the following facts: With
the exception of a few pioneers, the Negroes are not organized into a strong
racial group, conscious of the fact that it consists of an oppressed people.
There are certain progressive organizations working toward the equalization
of the Negro, such as the Negro Congress, the Negro Alliance (both Leftist),
and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. It is to
be noted, however, that the largest Negro organizations are financed by the
Jews. I do not see much that we might do aside from cooperating with these
organizations in elevating the status of the Negro, from which we could
expect very great results. Another thing is that the movement to equalize
the Negro was originally fostered ideologically and financially by the
Communist Party, and among Negro

(Part 2 of 3.)

(Message # 257 from New York to the Foreign Minister.)

To be kept secret within the Department.

2. Since the close of last year, I have been using a Negro literary critic
named [a] and have had him open a news service for Negro newspapers.
The Negro press is so poor that it has no news service of its own, and as I
have told you in various messages, [a] has been getting relatively
good results, and because of the advantage we have in using men like this in
our political and subversive activities, the effect of propaganda upon the
Negroes is naturally limited.
3. HIKIDA is in most intimate contact with Negro groups and Negro leaders. I
am going to have him continue to work along that line and have him foster
the organization of Negroes of great ability, thus advancing our own
purposes. Concerning the advantage of using Negroes in procuring
intelligences, since I have not yet used Negro spies directly, I am unable
to judge. However, as an experiment I am now instructing Mr. [a], an
official of the New York branch of the National Youth Administration, and a
graduate of [a], to be a spy.
____________________________________
[a] DOD comment: Names withheld.


II.357, follow on from 356, extract, "In the arsenals at Philadelphia and
Brooklyn there are also a few unskilled Negro laborers, so I would say that
in the future there will be considerable profit in our getting Negroes to
gather military intelligences for us."

II.384, from Tokyo to Mexico, 2 June 1941, extract,
"3. Please also plan to use RAFAEL MUNAS for purposes of interception.
4. Concerning propaganda and enlightenment, in case the United States joins
the war, we will endeavor to use our nationals there to our best possible
advantage and we will do our very best to use Rightist and Leftist Labor
organizations and promote their anti American revolutionary influence.
Please use your best efforts to achieve this."


No. II. 385
FROM: Mexico City (Sato) June 14, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 206.

I wish to send JOSE LLERGO.

This man is thirty years old, youthful and energetic, and is already an
influential reporter. His elder brother is the editor of the weekly
periodical HOY. Although it seems to me that by and large Mexican newspapers
are following the tendency of yielding to pressure from the United States,
nevertheless HOY has steadily maintained unbiased editorials. I believe that
through this man we can greatly influence the press of this country and that
it would be much to our advantage to use him in the future.
I would like to send him by the next plane, so will you please remit his
traveling expenses?


No. II. 386
FROM: Mexico July 19, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 280.

Re my # 206 [a].

1. On the 18th, PAPESU came to call on me to bid me farewell. On this
occasion, he brought a man by the name of ISAKU DEIYASU (Isaac Diaz ?) (he
is also a reporter on the OI (?), and is said to be PAPESU's best friend).
Since touring Europe, Diaz also has become very desirous of traveling to
Japan. So, seizing upon PAPESU's visit to Japan, he has decided to go there
too, at his own expense.
Some time ago, I had members of my staff make investigations into the
characters of these men. This was the first time, however, that I met and
talked with Diaz, and was happy to find that both men were exceedingly
pleasant.
They are both underlings of Maximino Camacho and are well qualified for
future utilization by us. I was firmly convinced that it would be to our
interest to have both men travel to Japan. I, therefore, told Diaz that
because there was no time to advise my home government of his coming, I
could not say definitely whether he could be given any financial assistance
or not. However, I would do my best for him, I said; and told him to go to
Japan on the assumption that he would have to pay his own way, (in part, at
least).
Because of these circumstances, I would appreciate your giving consideration
to allowing Diaz the same sort of treatment as has been extended to PAPESU.
________________________________________
[a] June 14, II, 385. Consul General Sato at Mexico City states his desire
to send Jose Llergo, outstanding Mexican news reporter and brother of the
Editor of Hoy, weekly periodical. Believes that the Mexican press can be
greatly influenced through him.


II.393, Mexico to Tokyo, 2 JUly 1941, extract, "In Mexicali and vicinity
American influence is predominant (All officials from the Governor down are
puppets of the United States). Although there are many Japanese inhabitants
there, since not one of them belongs to the intelligentsia, if intelligence
work is to be carried on, it is absolutely necessary that both funds and the
personnel be reorganized at the branch."


II.400 to 403, Mexico to Tokyo, 4 July 1941, setting up intelligence and
espionage communications from US to Mexico, including using the local
"espionage net".
Part 3 is "When I was in Washington, the official in charge of this matter,
after establishing Washington and New York areas in the espionage net, made
the statement that he would like to wait for a little while before making a
tour for contact purposes. Since that time until today, the question stands
as it did then. Furthermore, in regard to Los Angeles, when Minister
YAMAGATA's party recently passed through there, he was told that they had no
acquaintanceship with such things as intelligence nets, and for that reason
they had made no special plans. Since then, all of these offices, on the
instructions of the home office -- gradually are bringing their
plans to a head for - -----. At the present time, as far as civilian
agents are concerned it will be impossible to make (it ?) more concrete."


II.411, Tokyo to Washington, 10 July 1941, noting German and Italian
consulates in Mexico were closed, requiring Japanese replacement
intelligence activities, including "3. Various officials in the United
States and Mexico will work out all the details of their own espionage nets,
correlate them, and develop a concrete plan for making contacts and
exchanges on the border."

II.424 Mexico City to Tokyo, 10 JUly 1941, the US and Britain are spying on
shipments to Japan.
II.497, Tokyo to Berlin, 24 June 1941, report of Japanese consul in Capetown
about British ship movements.
II.690, Hsinking to Tokyo, increase in counter espionage in Manchukuo.
II.692, Hsinking to Tientsin, report of conference including intelligence
and counter espionage in the area.


No. II. 697
FROM: Tokyo August 4, 1941
TO: Shanghai # 782.

According to intelligences received by the Mitsui branch office in
Soerabaja, it is understood that they are planning to transship East Indian
rubber at Shanghai, exporting it from there to Vladivostok. Furthermore,
according to a military wire from Shanghai, the Soviet is buying petroleum
from agents of British and American firms in your city, and it is thought
that they may try to transport it to Vladivostok. Please investigate and
report the truth of the matter.


II.872, Rome to Washington, spy report, about a report received by the
Vatican about China.
II.878, Pieping to Tokyo, 26 May 1941, spy report on China.
II.881, London to Tokyo, 2 June 1941, "On the 28th day, I had a spy of mine,
who is a bosom friend of Ambassador BIDDLE, converse with him and under my
instructions, as always, to make certain leading statements on the Far
Eastern question in order to draw BIDDLE out", followed by a report on what
Biddle said.


No. II.892
FROM: San Francisco (Muto) August 5, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 160.

1. The of the Silver ver Pacific Line left San Francisco the 15th
for ¬ - carrying some 14 or 15 aviators and bomber
technicians bound for Chungking, as well as, a cargo consisting of military
material and large caliber guns. The Klipfo to , scheduled to leave this
port about the middle of September, is taking on a large quantity of
military equipment and in addition 20 aviators and bomber technicians bound
for Chungking are scheduled to board her before she leaves.
2. According to intelligences emanating from the local the Burma
road being British, American and Chinese jointly are planning on
the construction of a trans¬portation route between Calcutta and Chungking.
This transportation route (part of it will be a military road) will pass
through Darjeeling, Lhasa in Tibet, Seitei [a] in the province of Seiko and
the city of Seito having its terminus in Chungking. East of Kotei the road
is planned to be a military automobile road.
3. Material to be used in the construction of such an involved engineering
undertaking is at the present time being assembled and prepared. TO CHIN EN
[a] for this purpose is going to on the Matsonia scheduled to leave
the 2nd. Boarding a clipper at that place ¬ - he is
scheduled to leave for home on the clipper flying from San Francisco on the
6th.
______________________________________
[a] Kana spelling.



No. II.928
FROM: Tokyo June 2, 1941
TO: Shanghai # 475.

Re your # 852 [a].

For your own offices intelligence and enlightenment expenses for this fiscal
year, we have appropriated 620,000 yen, for your special agents we have
appropriated 540,000 yen (of which 600,000 yen are for JK's special
activities and which we are sending direct to Shanghai) (sic) making a total
of 1,160,000 yen. You know that nowadays we have to economize all we can and
it was only after considering how important intelligence work in your city
is that we arrived at such a high figure, so, in any case, we want you to
spend this money as wisely as possible. Please get the details from
Secretary YOSHIOKA.
________________________________________
[a] Not available.


II.1060A, Rio de Janerio to Santigao, enemy spy warning.
II.1099, Batavia to Tokyo, 18 July 1941, spy report on airfields.
II.1100, Batavia to Tokyo, 18 July 1941, spy report on allied officers
present.


No. II.1101
FROM: Batavia (Isizawa) July 23, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 667.

According to intelligences (Chinese report) the British commander in chief
of the Far East forces, Brooke Popham, and U.S. Naval aviation officer,
Normer, are in this area at present. It is further reported that one officer
each from the Australian Army and Navy came to Soerabaja several days ago
and will remain here as instructors in military affairs.


No. II.1146
FROM: Tokyo (Foreign Minister) July 2, 1941
TO: Bangkok # 366.

Secret within the department.

Re my # 340 [a].

We have appropriated 4,400 Baht [b] from the secret intelligence funds and
are sending it to you for the purchase of the Bangkok Chronicle. Please
handle this matter as stated in the last part of caption message and wire
the result.
________________________________________
[a] Available, See II, 1145.
[c] Siamese coin, normally $ .4424.


No. III.227
FROM: Tokyo October 2, 1941
TO: Washington # 625.

(extract) Special intelligence # 330 from New York states that an A. P.
dispatch declares that the Japanese American negotiations warrant a
pessimistic outlook and that the KONOYE Cabinet will face a crisis in about
two weeks


III.286, Seattle to Tokyo, 16 August 1941, spy report about HMS Warspite.
III.308, San Franciso to Tokyo, 18 September 1941, spy report about HMS
Warspite.


No. III.313
FROM: Tokyo (Toyoda) October 16, 1941
TO: Seattle #2187 (Circular).

Henceforth, I would like to have you refer in your reports to the movement
of warships as follows.
1. As long as there are no great changes in the movement and basing of
warships, report on them at least once every ten days. In the event of
priority intelligence, report such on each oc¬casion.
a. The arrival or departure of American flagships of the fleet or scouting
force.
b. Should more than ten vessels of any type arrive or depart from port at
one time.
c. The arrival or departure of warships of countries other than the United
States (give as detailed a report as possible on the class of ).
2. Should patrolling be inaugurated by naval planes, report it at once.


III.325, Manila to Tokyo, 12 August 1941, "(1) At the time a non
commissioned officer of the American Navy told me confidentially that the
ship mentioned in my #414 (b) (8?) (b) was the Warspite and I took this to
be reliable infor¬mation. This British ship, however, had its name painted
over. Some spies who viewed the ship when it docked report that it was
something like a 7,000 ton vessel", plus a spy report about wounded
soldiers.


No. III.333
FROM: Tokyo (Toyoda) August 30, 1941
TO: Manila # 277.

According to intelligences obtained by naval authorities, the Houston was
observed on the 20th or there about to pass through the harbor entrance but
since that time they have not been able to learn where it went. Please
investigate the waters in and around Manila for some trace of this warship
and then make your report.


No. III.340
FROM: Manila August 30, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 559.

(Primary Intelligence)

1. Warships at anchor in this harbor on the 30th:
(1) In Manila, 3 destroyers of the Bell class; 6 submarines (submarines left
port on the 27th but have returned). Furthermore, the tanker Trinity came to
this port on the 27th and dropped anchor here (please refer to Part 2 of my
# 543 (a)).
(2) One destroyer (undergoing repairs) Corundusu.
2. A large portion of the submarines, according to intelligences, which have
come to me, are now in the Ringaon area.
3. 500 American soldiers arrived here on the Cleveland the 29th.
Furthermore, on the same day the Migak entered this harbor. (Though details
of this ship could not be ascertained, it is understood that she is loaded
to capacity with military equipment.
________________________________________
(a) See III, 339 regarding boats in harbor at Manila.
(b) Lingayan on the west coast of the Island of Luzon.


III.350, Manila to Tokyo, 3 October 1941, request to confirm spy report.


No. III.369
FROM: Washington August 11, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 677.

Re your (Circular) 1718 (a).

1. Special secret funds for propaganda and intelligence: $17,424.99
2. Special secret funds in the name of the councillor: $20,556.25.
3. Subtracting one half of the $95,500 for the purchase of the adjacent land
from the $70,000 from San Francisco received in December, 1940, leaves
$22,250
4. Secret funds in San Francisco (?) from February, 1939: $5,000
5. Amount on deposit in San Francisco July, 1941, $47,000
6. Amount on deposit in New York at the same time, $54,606.47
Further we plan to pay for the grading and building expense out of paragraph
3.


No. III.379
FROM: San Francisco (Muto) August 16, 1941
TO: Mexico City # 164.

(Part 1 of 2.) (a)

(Message to Tokyo # 171.)

My opinions on suggested steps having to do with the Japanese resident under
my jurisdiction are as follows:
1. First generation Japanese who are farmers, first generation Japanese who
have established themselves to a considerable degree, second generation
Japanese who are registered for military service, their parents, and second
generation Japanese who have never returned to Japan have expressed
themselves as being anxious to remain here even though there is a break in
Japanese American relations. There seem to be no indications of unrest, even
when such persons as those mentioned above heard that Japanese ships on
regular schedule were no longer going to operate to the West Coast. Though
other first generation Japanese and second-¬generation Japanese who are not
likely to be registered for military service are maintaining a calm on the
surface, there are many who actually are wavering in their intentions. We
are, therefore, undertaking the encouragement of these Japanese through our
subsidized newspapers and Japanese organizations.
2. We will evacuate all persons at the present time engaged in branches of
banks and com¬panies with home offices in Japan, and those who as a result
of the freezing legislation are doing nothing more than completing
unfinished business. It is imagined that Japanese residents here who have
become attached to the land will be dealt quite a blow when such an
evacuation takes place. Therefore, we are doing all that we can to make this
blow as easy as possible on them.


III.410 Washington to Tokyo, 6 September 1941, I would like to have TERASAKI
go on an official mission to Chicago in order to make secret contacts with
members of the "America First" Committee residing in that city. Please send
authorization. At that time, I would like to have him make a study on the
spot of the matter concerning OYAMA mentioned in your # 154 (a).
Furthermore, TERASAKI was not able to make an official tour to Los Angeles
and San Francisco in line with your # 349 (b) because he went south to
Mexico. At this time should you permit him to stop off at San Francisco,
Seattle, and Los Angeles, it would be exceedingly convenient from the
standpoint of the work at hand.

(a) Not available.
(b) Discusses plan for TERASAKI's visit to Mexico to confer with Japanese
Minister there for the development of plans pertaining to the establishment
of an espionage net; the focal point of this net to be Mexico City carrying
out activities in the United States as well as South America. See III, 410A.


III.419, New York to Tokyo, 12 September 1941, puching espionage work,
noting "1. Proposed Reorganization. Our policy has been that in order to set
up an effective organization we must:
(a) Immediately dismiss all persons of little value and those who are no
longer required.
(b) Transfer to the Cultural Institute the most effective persons or groups
in our employ (the Culture on Wheels Library and the group handling the
distribution of films) to the Cultural Institute.
(c) To divert the most capable persons in our employ being used in the
dissemination of propaganda into intelligence collecting and espionage
activities.
Though we hold these three points to be our principal objectives, since our
decisions were reached on this matter, the freezing legislation went into
effect. Consequently, with the change in the situation, we have found it
necessary to dismiss such persons as we have classified under (b) above in
the same category as those in (a) because it is now apparent that we cannot
realize our aims under (b). In view of the expectation of increasing
financial difficulty due to the scarcity of funds available for distribution
to civilian personnel, this applies also to those in espionage and
activities. We are now doing our best to make temporary reductions in
expense funds and salaries."


III.472, 10 October 1941, Washington to Tokyo, Major Yano to go to Mexico
city "in order to make preliminary arrangements concerning anti American
espionage" and code book transfer.
III.499, 20 September 1941, Panama to Tokyo, spy budget including for Panama
Canal watchers ($70) and Kyowa company ($100).
III.626, 15 October 1941, Mexico City to Tokyo, pointing out the limits of
monitoring the US from outside and stresses the need to increase
intelligence gathering resources inside the US.
III.643, 22 August 1941, Santiago to Buenos Aires, report of conference by
"HIDENARI TERASAKI, 2nd Secretary of Emb. Washington. He is head of
espionage in the U.S." It is about setting up an intelligence network in
Latin American, and includes "We propose the establishment of spies within
the United States. From these we shall obtain secret intelligences."

III.739, Tokyo to Nanking and Shanghai, spy report from Rangoon on
conference/activity between British and Chinese.
III.741, Tokyo to Nanking Shanghai and Peking, spy report from Rangoon on
supplies to China.


No. III.793
FROM: Tokyo (Toyoda) October 8, 1941
TO: Singapore # 307.

Departmental secret.
Strictly secret.
Re your # 599 (a).

The amount of money which we anticipate sending you during the coming year
is roughly 600,000 yen. We are not specifying how it is to be sent. After
you have figured the approximate monthly allotment, please make your report
to us by return wire.
Furthermore, please bear in mind that the above quoted figures does not
include travel expenses or any other extraordinary expense monies.

Expense fund 200,000 yen
Salaries 50,400 yen
Subsidy fund 20,000 yen
Fund for dissemination of intelligences 300,000 yen
Secret fund 6,000 yen
Entertainment fund 1,200 yen
Grand
Total ----------------------------------------------------------------------
577,600 yen
________________________________________
(a) Not available.


III.861, Bangkok to Tokyo suggesting new spy networks if Malaya is going to
be attacked.
III.932, Rome to Tokyo, 18 August 1941, spy report on possible Hitler
Mussolini meeting.
III.1038, 1 October 1945 (probably should be 1941), Canton to Tokyo, amongst
other things noting anti Japanese espionage organisations.
III.1040, Shanghai to "Net", 20 Augst 1941, HQ spy report.
III.1050, Canton to Shanghai, Bangkok, spy report on new Chinese currency.
III.1065 Hong Kong to Tokyo, spy report about possible $200 million loan to
China.


No. III.1289
FROM: Bangkok (SIAMD) September 20, 1941
TO: Tokyo M # 158.

On 29 August, the Singora (a) consulate received a wire from the Foreign
Office ordering student secretary SHIMIZU JUICHI transferred to Chiengmai.
Please send us a reply wire at once to aid us in giving him instructions.
In view of the importance of collecting intelligence on British Malaya and
Southern Siam, and student secretary GOTO's linguistic ability, I think we
should either supply Singora in addition with one officer who speaks
English, or else we should send this officer to Chiengmai in place of
SHIMIZU.
________________________________________
(a) Possibly Songkla.


No. III.1306
FROM: Tokyo September 29, 1941
TO: Bangkok # 615.

Strictly confidential.

Re my # 614 (a).

In order to collect military intelligence in your intelligence department at
this time, Major (or Lt. Comdr.) Fujiwara and Lieutenant (of Sub Lieutenant)
Yamaguchi of the General Staff Office, are being sent there as honorary non
career clerks under the assumed names of Koichi Yamashita and Hajime Yamada.
They will have the status of general non career clerks. Please have your
Ambassador and Director of the intelligence department recognize this.
________________________________________
(a) See III, 1307.


No. IV.116
FROM: Washington (Nomura) November 15, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 1099.

1. Duties are to be limited to only the most pressing matters. Other
non-urgent duties, such as auditing of accounts, will be dropped.
Accordingly, I desire to have one or two secretaries, two foreign service
attaches, and one clerk ordered back to Japan. (There are family
considerations involved in the case of Foreign Service Attaches Fujiyama and
Inagawa. If possible we would like to have these two returned to Japan.)
2. The intelligence staff will not be returned (to Japan). Instead, we plan
to arrange for their transfer to South America; (Secretary Terazaki and
Clerk Yamamoto).
3. All overseas students and so-called student attaches will be returned to
Japan or transferred elsewhere. (Attaches Ando, Honjo, Nishibori, Arita,
Matsui and six 2nd class clerks.)
4. Employees engaged locally will be dismissed as the occasion may demand.
5. Those returning to Japan would go in one of the evacuee ships. Those
transferring to South America, or elsewhere, would leave immediately for
their posts.


No. IV.259
FROM: Seattle December 6, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 184.

Urgent intelligence.

1. The ships at anchor in Bremerton on the 5th were the Warspite (came out
of the dock and at present is tied up at a pier) and the Colorado.
2. The Saratoga sailed the same day.


IV.299 to 306 Philippines to Tokyo, October/November 1941, US Ship
movements. Other messages cover the ground forces present.

IV.321, Manilka to Tokyo, 15 November 1941, intelligence report from a
Japanese resident in Cebu.

IV.340, Hsinking to Peking, Nanking and Shanghai 28 November 1941, military
intelligence including a spy report.

No. IV.453
FROM: Tokyo December 4, 1941
TO: Washington # 882.

Departmental secret.

Message # 748 [a] from Peking to the Foreign Minister.

According to a spy report, the head of the American Marine group here, while
at a send off party given by a certain foreign friend of his on the 18th,
revealed that all the American Marines are leaving very soon. However, a few
who are versed in airplanes cannot return home. They will probably go via
Manchu (sic) or to Vladivostok as advance troops to lay the ground for the
establishment of an American air base there.
________________________________________
[a] See IV, 454.
Trans. 12 5 41


No. IV.454
FROM: Peking November 27, 1941
TO: Net Circular # 606.

Peking to Tokyo # 748.

Reports of reliability B.

According to secret information on the 18th a corporal of the Marine Corps
stationed here let slip the information that the American Marines were to be
evacuated from here in the near future, excepting a few who, because of
their knowledge of aviation, were not to return home but were to go to
Vladivostok by way of Manchuokuo and form the nucleus of an American
aviation unit to be stationed there.


IV.529, 20 October 1941, Manila to Tokyo, amongst the various reports is the
note the US stepping up vigilance against espionage.
IV.661, 662, Lima to Tokyo, 8 December 1941, includes spy report on
government attitudes/actions.
IV.735, 18 October 1941, Bucharest to Tokyo, on sending to Tokyo some Polish
people currently being used for espionage and code breaking by the Japanese
against the USSR, they have Manchukuo passports.
IV.784, Tokyo to Hsinking, 6 November 1941, report from Budapest including
reports from Hungarian government spies.
IV.1033 Hsingking to Tokyo, 6 December 1941, what are the current
instructions for counter espionage?


No. IV.1094
FROM: Batavia (Isizawa) November 22, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 1253.

To be handled in Government code. Departmental secret.

The activities of ROO CHOO Sill, backed up by the CHI GOO RAI and the ROO
HOO (an intelligence society and a publication), is working hard in our
behalf to stamp out anti-Japanism. Several incidents have occurred lately
and his opponents are rather belligerent. Consequently, Governmental
surveillance over ROO is rather close. From April to September of this year
we afforded ROO a subsidy for the ROO HOO and a fund for collecting
intelligence, amounting to from 2,000 to 3,000 guilders. ROO is so familiar
with the Chinese and natives here that in case of emergency he can do much
to help us. That is why I have employed him so far. He is ready at our
direction to start the distribution of pamphlets designed to win over as
many of his consanguinaries and the natives as possible. I think that we
should continue to avail ourselves of his services. He has a family of
eight. Therefore, I think we should let him have 3,000 guilders for
operating expenses; 15,000 guilders for living expenses, and 12,000 guilders
as a subsidy for the ROO HOO as of from October 1st to the end of the year.
Will you please, therefore, arrange to appropriate and remit that amount,
namely 30,000 guilders.


IV.1123, Bangkok to Tokyo, 29 October 1941, reporting on radio intelligence
activity against the British and asking for more resources.
IV.1147, Bangkok to Tokyo, 10 November 1941, report on Thai attitudes,
including noting rewards being offered by the Thai police for exposing
foreign espionage agents.
IV.1163, Bangkok to Tokyo, 20 November, spy report.
IV.1166, Bangkok to Tokyo, 22 November, spy report.

V.7, Washington to Tokyo, 24 July 1941, noting "2. At this time, when the
Imperial Navy is sending home all of its Resident Personnel and most of its
Resident Supervisory Personnel because of suspicions of espionage and the
great decrease in purchasing functions, the Army could not keep on sending
in additional personnel without running a great risk of rousing the
suspicions of American officials, especially those of the Army and Navy, and
eventually of having the activities of our per¬sonnel severely restricted.
Therefore, I think it would be more advisable to keep the number of our
personnel resident in America down to the minimum and to utilize this
personnel to fill out and strengthen our intelligence network."
"3. The personnel I should like to have remain in the United States to the
end are:
The Attaché, Col. IWAKURO,
2 Aides (These in Washington)
1 Technical Resident Official,
1 Technical Resident Supervisor and Col. SHINJO.
(These in New York.)
I have in previous wires stated my views on the matter of appointing those
of the above who do not enjoy diplomatic privileges to the position of Local
Aides. Until this is done, it will be next to impossible to ensure their
personal security."

V.49, Rome to "Circular: Bucharest, Moscow", 20 June 1941, spy report on
German Supreme HQ location.
V.54, Bangkok to Tokyo, 3 May, spy report.


No. V.56
FROM: Bangkok (SIAMD) May 22, 1941
TO: Tokyo (Autumn (Head, Gen. Affairs Dept.)) # 861.

Intelligence from Japanese Agents who have infiltrated Victoria Point (at
the southeast tip of Burma).
1. About 200 GURKHA and Indian troops are stationed there, and they have
some light tanks.
2. Central part. There are two emergency airfields, but no warplanes are in
evidence. Furthermore, there are no hangers, and planes land but
infrequently.
3. In the bay there are some small ships, two of them being gunboats; also
there are two destroyer squadrons on patrol.
4. It is rumored that 1000 Chinese troops are stationed at Moulmein.


V.64, Mexico to Tokyo, 1 May 1941, about 50 Germans sailing on a Japanese
ship, one of whom is named as a spy.

Volume V "Additional Messages Found in 1977." Tokyo to Stockholm, 12
November 1941, regarding clearing up the status with Polish authorities of a
Polish officer now doing vital work with the Kwantung Army.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-10-22 17:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one and the fellow named here?
#41 Jan 30,1941 Tokyo to Washington
(exerpt) "...(1) Establish an intelligence
organization which will maintain liaison with private
and semi-official intelligence organs ...the focal
point ..shall be the determination of the total strength
of the U.S.....(using)....Our "second generation"
and our resident nationals...get the details from...
Terasaki......."
So Tersaki was busted long before Pearl Harbor?
How would you know that? Your source please?
Michelle has given the answer to the above message, the
heavy editing is rather obvious.

To add from the index of the Magic messages volumes,

"Terasaki, Taro, Director of the American Bureau, Jap. Foreign
Office; Brother was Chief of Intelligence and Propaganda in U.S."
Post by WJHopwood
Oh, then Terasaki was just a chauffer and was
busted in December of 1941. How would you
know that? Source please?
"Terasaki, Taro, Director of the American Bureau, Jap. Foreign
Office; Brother was Chief of Intelligence and Propaganda in U.S."

Magic intercepts index.
Post by WJHopwood
And for this one: #45 Msy 11, 1941 Seattle to
Tokyo
(excerpt) "....We are securing intelligences
concerning the concentration of warships within
the Bremerton Navy Yard. Information with regard
to...shipping and airplane manufacture..movement
of military forces as well as that which concerns
troop maneuvers...We have a first generation Japanese
who is a member of the labor movement...contact the
organizer...OKAMURU is in chsrge of this...(and) we
are making use of a second generation Japanese
lawyer...."
So, were OKAMURU and the Japanese-American
lawyeralso busted before Pearl Harbor? Yes? No? How
would you possibly know?
Magic Index, "Okamaru, Jap. in contact with U.S. labor unions."
In other words a Japanese citizen, no information on whether
he was consular staff of not, the message implies he was.

Full message,

FROM: Seattle (Sato)
TO: Tokyo
May 11, 1941

# 45.

(3 parts-complete).

Re your # 180 to Washington.

1. Political Contacts.
We are collecting intelligences revolving around political questions, and
also the question of American participation in the war which has to do with
the whole country and this local area. ----- ----- -----.

Page A-100

2. Economic Contacts.
We are using foreign company employees, as well as employees in our own
companies here, for the collection of intelligences having to do with
economics along the lines of the construction of ships, the number of
airplanes produced and their various types, the production of copper, zinc
and aluminum, the yield of tin for cans, and lumber. We are now exerting our
best efforts toward the acquisition of such intelligences through competent
Americans. From an American, whom we contacted recently, we have received a
private report on machinists of German origin who are Communists and members
of the labor organizations in the Bremerton Naval Yard and Boeing airplane
factory. Second generation Japanese ----- ----- -----.
3. Military Contacts.
We are securing intelligences concerning the concentration of warships
within the Bremerton Naval Yard, information with regard to mercantile
shipping and airplane manufacturer, movements of military forces, as well as
that which concerns troop maneuvers.
With this as a basis, men are sent out into the field who will contact Lt.
Comdr. OKADA, and such intelligences will be wired to you in accordance with
past practice. KANEKO is in charge of this. Recently we have on two
occasions made investigations on the spot of various military establishments
and concentration points in various areas. For the future we have made
arrangements to collect intelligences from second generation Japanese
draftees on matters dealing with the troops, as well as troop speech and
behavior. ----- ----- -----.
4. Contacts With Labor Unions.
The local labor unions A.F. of L. and C.I.O. have considerable influence.
The (Socialist ?) Party maintains an office here (its political sphere of
influence extends over twelve zones.) The C.I.O., especially, has been very
active here. We have had a first generation Japanese, who is a member of the
labor movement and a committee chairman, contact the organizer, and we have
received a report, though it is but a resume, on the use of American members
of the (Socialist ?) Party. ----- OKAMARU is in charge of this.
5. In order to contact Americans of foreign extraction and foreigners, in
addition to third parties, for the collection of intelligences with regard
to anti-participation organizations and the anti-Jewish movement, we are
making use of a second generation Japanese lawyer.
This intelligence ---- ----- -----.

Trans. 6-9-41

"Kaneko, official in Jap. Consulate in Seattle "

"Okada, Jap. Intelligence agent, Seattle"

"Okada, Yoshiko, Jap. Communist .."

I would go with the first Okada.

Note also what the first generation Japanese citizen did, contact the
C.I.O for the consulate. Similarly the second generation Japanese is
contacting people for the consulate.

Now all you have to do is show the two people were spies instead of
couriers or ordinary citizens being used.
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one?
#7 June 2, 1941 Los Angeles to Washington
"On the 20th the Saratoga, and on the 24th
the Chester)(?), the Louisville, the 12th Destoyer
Squadron, and destroyers #364,405,411,412,
and 413 entered San Diego and all of them
You mean from the Japanese consulate there? Maybe
the Naval Attache for example?

At least the message is complete.
Post by WJHopwood
#056 June 23, 1941 Seattle to
Tokyo (exerpt)
"Ships at anchor on the 22nd/23rd
(1).Bremerton- 1 battleship (Maryland type),
aircraft tenders--1 one ship has letter E on side....
Port of ___1 destroyer, 1 destroyer, 11 coast
guard cutters, ...11 appear to be minesweepers, ...
(3)Sand Point-2 newly constructed hangars
(4)Boeing -- new construction...etc., etc.
Seattle had a Japanese consulate.

Note the etc. etc. in the above edited version, then compare
it to what is below, the report of someone looking into the
area.

FROM: Seattle (Sato) June 23, 1941
TO: Tokyo (Gaimudaijin) # 056.

(1) Ships at anchor on the 22nd/23rd (?):
(Observations having been made from a distance, ship types could not be
determined in most cases.)
1. Port of Bremerton:
1 battleship (Maryland type)
2 aircraft tenders (one ship completed and has letter "E" on its funnel).

2. Port of -----:
1 destroyer
11 coast guard cutters
(Ships under repair):
1 destroyer
11 (appear to be) minesweepers
3 coast guard cutters

3. Sand Point: 2 newly constructed hangars

4. Boeing:
New construction work on newly built factory building # 2. Expansion work on
all factory buildings.

Trans. 7-14-41

So where does the etc. etc., come from?

So what is the evidence this is a spy report instead of a
consulate report?
Post by WJHopwood
Take another look at #41 above. Are we to
assume that the message is just the superior
(Tokyo) blowing smoke back at a subordinate?
Michelle has taken another look and you have failed to
bother to actually read the full message, which is a plan
to set up spy networks.
Post by WJHopwood
i could give you many more MAGIC intercepts
like the above and some more detailed about
ongoing Japanese espionage operations but
that would probably be a waste of time as you
seem totally unaware of what really happened
vis-a-vis the MAGIC intercepts and determined
to remain so.
Or to put it another way people are well aware the Japanese
officials in the US were informing Tokyo about US military
and political moves and they were also trying to recruit spies,
mostly non Japanese.

Now tell us all, how many of the Magic messages have you
bothered to check to see if it was Japanese officials doing
the information gathering? And note it was part of their job
to report what they found out and could quite legitimately go
take a look through the fence or from things like a joy flight.

home.comcast.net/~eo9066/1941/41-12/IA021.html

For what it is worth I helped create electronic copies of all the
magic volumes. So I have the full set and they are easily
searchable.

See for example the following, note the US has its own
message ID's, as well as the Japanese ones.

FROM: Tokyo
TO: Washington
April 24, 1941

# 180. (US ID message I,165)

I would like to be informed of the intelligence organization in your office
and of its recent activity relative to my # 43 [a], # 44 [b], and # 73.
Please transmit this request as coming from the Foreign Office, from
Washington to Mexico City (?) and from that city to Mexicali.

[a] Regarding the de-emphasizing of propaganda in the United States and the
strengthening of intelligence work.
[b] Regarding the establishment of an intelligence organ in the Embassy
which will maintain liaison with intelligence organs from New York to Tokyo;
also, the removal of the intelligence set-up to Mexico should the United
States become involved in the war.

Trans. 8-18-41


FROM: Los Angeles (Nakauchi)
TO: Tokyo (Gaimudaijin)
May 9, 1941

# 067.

(In 2 parts-complete).

Strictly Secret.

Re your message # 180 to Washington. [a]

We are doing everything in our power to establish outside contacts in
connection with our efforts to gather intelligence material. In this regard,
we have decided to make use of white persons and Negroes, through Japanese
persons whom we can't trust completely. (It not only would be very difficult
to hire U.S. (military ?) experts for this work at the present time, but the
expenses would be exceedingly high.) We shall, furthermore, maintain close
connections with the Japanese Association, the Chamber of Commerce, and the
newspapers.
With regard to airplane manufacturing plants and other military
establishments in other parts, we plan to establish very close relations
with various organizations and in strict secrecy have them keep these
military establishments under close surveillance. Through such means, we
hope to be able to obtain accurate and detailed intelligence reports. We
have already established contacts with absolutely reliable Japanese in the
San Pedro and San Diego area, who will keep a close watch on all shipments
of airplanes and other war materials, and report the amounts and
destinations of such shipments. The same steps have been taken with regard
to traffic across the U.S.-Mexico border.
We shall maintain connection with our second generations who are at present
in the (U.S.) Army, to keep us informed of various developments in the Army.
We also have connections with our second generations working in airplane
plants for intelligence purposes.
With regard to the Navy, we are cooperating with our Naval Attaché's office,
and are submitting reports as accurately and as speedily as possible.
We are having Nakazawa investigate and summarize information gathered
through first hand and newspaper reports, with regard to military movements,
labor disputes, communistic activities and other similar matters. With
regard to anti-Jewish movements, we are having investigations made by both
prominent Americans and Japanese who are connected with the movie industry
which is centered in this area. We have already established connections with
very influential Negroes to keep us informed with regard to the Negro
movement.

[a] See I, 165. It is routed as Foreign Minister's instructions to: Ottawa,
Mexico, San Francisco, New York, New Orleans. San Francisco to relay to
Honolulu, Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver.

The following messages are the sequence that leads to the
Japanese message 44, plus message 44 itself, note the US
has its own numbering sequence, which it uses in the foot
notes, I, 118 is Japanese message 43.

Message 591, or I, 112.

FROM: Tokyo (Matsuoka)
TO: Washington (Koshi)
December 10, 1940

# 591.

With the appointment of Ambassador Nomura we wish to formulate a definite
plan for our propaganda and information gathering work by seeking
cooperation of Japanese bank and business officials in the U.S.
(Abstract-some values missing.)

Trans. 1-25-41

No. 118

FROM: Tokyo (Matsuoka)
TO: Washington (Koshi)
January 30, 1941

# 043.

Foreign Office secret.

Heretofore, we have placed emphasis on publicity and propaganda work in the
United States. In view of the critical situation in the recent relations
between the two countries, and for the purpose of being prepared for the
worst, we have decided to alter this policy. Taking into consideration the
small amount of funds we have at our disposal, we have decided to
de-emphasize propaganda for the time being, and instead, to strengthen our
intelligence work.
Though we must give the matter of intelligence work our further study-in
this connection we are at present conferring with the intelligence bureau-we
have mapped out a fundamental program, the outline of which is contained in
my supplementary cable No. 44 [a].
Please, therefore, reorganize your intelligence set-up and put this new
program into effect as soon as possible.
Cable copies of this message, as "Minister's orders" to Canada, Mexico, (a
copy to be relayed from Mexico to Mexicali), San Francisco, (copies from San
Francisco to Honolulu, Los Angeles, Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver), New
York, New Orleans, and Chicago.

[a] See I, 119.

Trans. 2-7-41

FROM: Tokyo (Matsuoka)
TO: Washington (Koshi)
January 30, 1941

# 44.

(In two parts-complete).

(Foreign Office secret).

(1) Establish an intelligence organ in the Embassy which will maintain
liaison with private and semi-official intelligence organs (see my message
to Washington # 591 [a] and # 732 [b] from New York to Tokyo, both of last
year's series).
With regard to this, we are holding discussions with the various circles
involved at the present time.
(2) The focal point of our investigations shall be the determination of the
total strength of the U.S. Our investigations shall be divided into three
general classifications: political, economic, and military, and definite
course of action shall be mapped out.
(3) Make a survey of all persons or organizations which either openly or
secretly oppose participation in the war.
(4) Make investigations of all anti-Semitism, communism, movements of
Negroes, and labor movements.
(5) Utilization of U.S. citizens of foreign extraction (other than
Japanese), aliens (other than Japanese), communists, Negroes, labor union
members, and anti-Semites, in carrying out the investigations described in
the preceding paragraph would undoubtedly bear the best results.
These men, moreover, should have access to governmental establishments,
(laboratories?), governmental organizations of various characters,
factories, and transportation facilities.
(6) Utilization of our "Second Generations" and our resident nationals. (In
view of the fact that if there is any slip in this phase, our people in the
U.S. will be subjected to considerable persecution, and the utmost caution
must be exercised).
(7) In the event of U.S. participation in the war, our intelligence set-up
will be moved to Mexico, making that country the nerve center of our
intelligence net. Therefore, will you bear in mind and in anticipation of
such an eventuality, set up facilities for a U.S.-Mexico international
intelligence route. This net which will cover Brazil, Argentina, Chile, and
Peru will also be centered in Mexico.
(8) We shall cooperate with the German and Italian intelligence organs in
the U.S. This phase has been discussed with the Germans and Italians in
Tokyo, and it has been approved.
Please get the details from Secretary Terasaki upon his assuming his duties
there.
Please send copies to those offices which were on the distribution list of
No. 43 [c].

[a] See I, 112.
[b] Has no bearing on this subject. # 732 probably an error.
[c] (See No. 4)-See I, 118.

Trans. 2-7-41

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
WJHopwood
2014-10-23 15:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for the long lines.
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:35:04 PM
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
...
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one and the fellow named
here? ......Terasaki......."
Michelle has given the answer to the above
message, the heavy editing is rather obvious.
Sorry you missed the point. I try to comply
with the forum rule to refrain from unnecessary
quoted material, a rule you might try to adhere
to somewhat more yourself.
As for Michelle's misrepresentation of
what I wrote, a sentiment you appear to share,
please see my post in response to Michelle.
it applies to your complsint as well.
My message was in responce to Mr.
Rostrom's incorrect statement in which he had
contradicted my observation saying that some
names did appear in the intercepts but usually
without giving the nationalitiy of the person
named.
Here is what Rostrom said:
(Quote) The ONLY individuals named in
Magic decrypts were among the handful of
known associates of Japanese consular spies,
all of whom had been busted long before
Pearl Harbor. (Unquote) My emphasis.
That being an obvious misstatement,
I looked at a few Magic messges and Terasaki's
name was in more than one. His citizenship was
not mentioned, and it was unlikely that he had
"been busted long before Pearl Harbor." His
name and position was well-known to readers
of the Magic messages and thus a perfect name
to use in proving that Mr, Rostrom was "blowing
smoke." Furthermore, nowhere do I say or imply
that Terasaki was a Japanese-American, or a spy,
or anybody else than who he was. So why do you
suggest that I was not posting in "good faith?"
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Index, "Okamaru, Jap. in contact with U.S. labor
unions." In other words a Japanese citizen,
He could have been been a resident alien (a.k.a
Japanese citizen) but that's only your guess. He
was just another person named in a Magic
intercept but the message doesn't mention his
citizenship status. For all you know he could have
been a dual citizen or Japanese-American only.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
FROM: Seattle (Sato)
TO: Tokyo May 11, 1941 # 45......
.....
3. Military Contacts.
We are securing intelligences concerning the
concentration of warships within the Bremerton
Naval Yard, information with regard to mercantile
shipping and airplane manufacturer > movements
of military forces, as well as that which concerns t
troop maneuvers........ Recently we have ...made
investigations ..various military establishments and
concentration points....we have made arrangements
to collect intelligences from second generation
Japanese draftees on matters dealing with the troops,
As well as troop speech and behavior. -
Thanks for helping to make my case, What you show
above are reports made by the Japanese consular
officials themselves of ongoing pre-war espionage
and the use of Japanese-Americans in the U.S. armed
forces to act as spies. Yet there are some on this
thread who are in such a case of denial that they
contend that such espionage never existed and that
these reports were merely efforts by self-serving
low-level consular employees to impress their bosses
in Tokyo. Do you agree with that?
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Now tell us all, how many of the Magic messages have you
bothered to check to see if it was Japanese officials doing
the information gathering?
i'd say about the same number you checked to see if
it was only Japanese-Americans who did the gathering.
At least I take the consuls at their word when they
say they were using resident Japanese nationals and
Japanese Americans to do espionage work, Why is it that
you and few others refuse to believe that the messages
said what they said?
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
For what it is worth I helped create electronic copies
of all the > magic volumes. So I have the full set and
they are easily searchable.
I also have a complete set of the MAGIC series but they
don't stand alone. I also have a large number of other
documents related to Magic---ONI, MID, and FBI reports
which might ehance your perspective. I particularly
recommend these:
ONI March 12, 1941 "Japanese Espionage
Organization in the United States." ONI December 4,
1941 "Japanese Intelligence and Propaganda in the U.S.
during 1941" (24 pgs). December 24, 1941 "Japanese
Tokyo Club Syndicate with Interlocking Affiliations."
(39 pgs). And by all means the book, "MAGIC--The
untold story of U.S. Intelligence and the Evacuation of
Japanese Residents from the West Coast during WWII."
by former NSA intelligence official, David Lowman.

This might help also:
http://www.internmentarchives.com/

WJH
Stephen Graham
2014-10-23 15:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Sorry you missed the point. I try to comply
with the forum rule to refrain from unnecessary
quoted material
The quoted material rule applies to quoted material from previous posts.
It does not apply to source material.
WJHopwood
2014-10-23 20:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Sorry you missed the point. I try to comply
with the forum rule to refrain from unnecessary
quoted material
The quoted material rule applies to quoted material from previous posts. It does not apply to source material.
Thanks for telling me inasmuch as i had a messsge
rejected awile back because in quoting something
from the New York Times I was told that there was
too much quoting from the source.

WJH
Stephen Graham
2014-10-23 20:41:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by WJHopwood
Sorry you missed the point. I try to comply
with the forum rule to refrain from unnecessary
quoted material
The quoted material rule applies to quoted material from previous posts. It does not apply to source material.
Thanks for telling me inasmuch as i had a messsge
rejected awile back because in quoting something
from the New York Times I was told that there was
too much quoting from the source.
If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's because you included almost the
entire text of a modern-day New York Times article. We can easily
distinguish between that and quoting a historical source such as a Magic
decode.

If you have questions, you can always ask me via e-mail.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-10-23 17:48:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Sorry for the long lines.
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:35:04 PM
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
...
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one and the fellow named
here? ......Terasaki......."
Michelle has given the answer to the above
message, the heavy editing is rather obvious.
Sorry you missed the point.
No I gained the point, the heavily edited Magic message
you chose to use was so chopped as to be misleading.
Post by WJHopwood
I try to comply
with the forum rule to refrain from unnecessary
quoted material, a rule you might try to adhere
to somewhat more yourself.
Actually the quoting rule applies to text from previous posts,
it does not apply to introducing things like the actual
message text or original writing, and the full message text
was certainly needed given the way the messages had
been edited.
Post by WJHopwood
As for Michelle's misrepresentation of
what I wrote, a sentiment you appear to share,
please see my post in response to Michelle.
it applies to your complsint as well.
I like the way my post providing the full texts and pointing
out the gap between the edited and full texts and answering
the questions posed is a complaint. I consider it a refutation
of the claims made.

In other words you are certainly not going to bother to
admit the messages you chose to use were edited
to the point of misleading and then tried to further
mislead by not mentioning what you knew, who
Terasaki was.

And I do not think the misrepresentation is coming
from Michele.
Post by WJHopwood
My message was in responce to Mr.
Rostrom's incorrect statement in which he had
contradicted my observation saying that some
names did appear in the intercepts but usually
without giving the nationalitiy of the person
named.
(Quote) The ONLY individuals named in
Magic decrypts were among the handful of
known associates of Japanese consular spies,
all of whom had been busted long before
Pearl Harbor. (Unquote) My emphasis.
Actually people like Sorge are mentioned in the
messages. So I presume the idea was individuals
in the US but given the long list of Japanese officials
in the "what we are paying them" message,

"No. 385

FROM: Tokyo November 7, 1941
TO: Washington # 744."

I further presume Mr Rostrom's idea was non
Japanese (and US) officials, and we know the
editorial standard about publishing names in
the Magic messages (some/many omitted). That
still leaves people like Charles Lindbergh, so the
blanket statement is in error.
Post by WJHopwood
That being an obvious misstatement,
I looked at a few Magic messges and Terasaki's
name was in more than one. His citizenship was
not mentioned, and it was unlikely that he had
"been busted long before Pearl Harbor."
So in other words you found a name, made zero
checks on who the person was and decided the
debating point was more important than you
doing the checks.

Yet you claim to have all the Magic messages, including
the index, you claim to have detailed knowledge and yet
could not identify someone as important as Terasaki in
the reply? Yet now claim you knew the identity and
therefore knew why he was not "busted" before the
war began.
Post by WJHopwood
His
name and position was well-known to readers
of the Magic messages and thus a perfect name
to use in proving that Mr, Rostrom was "blowing
smoke." Furthermore, nowhere do I say or imply
that Terasaki was a Japanese-American, or a spy,
or anybody else than who he was. So why do you
suggest that I was not posting in "good faith?"
Actually I made no accusation of bad faith, I pointed
out the edited messages were misleading and then
answered the questions posed and noted how
messages claimed to be from spies were well within
the remit of the relevant Japanese diplomatic staff.

Bad faith has been established from the reply.

If you knew who Terasaki was then you would never
have asked the "busted" question, nor the chauffer
comment. In other words you are telling us you
knew and chose to be misleading.

Your words

"Oh, then Terasaki was just a chauffer and was
busted in December of 1941. How would you
know that? Source please?"

Bad faith if you knew who he was, which is what you
are now claiming.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Index, "Okamaru, Jap. in contact with U.S. labor
unions." In other words a Japanese citizen,
He could have been been a resident alien (a.k.a
Japanese citizen) but that's only your guess. He
was just another person named in a Magic
intercept but the message doesn't mention his
citizenship status. For all you know he could have
been a dual citizen or Japanese-American only.
I am impressed you think Jap. is not short for Japanese
citizen given its widespread use in the Magic messages
index, I am well aware you are simply going to assume
the worst when it comes to this topic, and if you think the
Magic description of him is wrong then ask for it to be
corrected.

Since you have chosen to be so misleading when it
comes to names mentioned, please state the evidence
you have "Okamaru" was a Japanese spy, as opposed
to being someone the embassy was using as a contact.

For all you know he could have been a British citizen
given you choose to tell us we can only guess what
nationality he really was.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
FROM: Seattle (Sato)
TO: Tokyo May 11, 1941 # 45......
.....
3. Military Contacts.
We are securing intelligences concerning the
concentration of warships within the Bremerton
Naval Yard, information with regard to mercantile
shipping and airplane manufacturer > movements
of military forces, as well as that which concerns t
troop maneuvers........ Recently we have ...made
investigations ..various military establishments and
concentration points....we have made arrangements
to collect intelligences from second generation
Japanese draftees on matters dealing with the troops,
As well as troop speech and behavior. -
Thanks for helping to make my case,
Actually given your misleading first edit of the above message,
leaving in the "generation" Japanese as implications and now
that deletion for the above I expect the sun rising tomorrow can
be considered helping.

"For the future" is in front of "we have made arrangements
to collect intelligences" so tell us all what reports were actually
made?

Next tell us what evidence you have the people in the US
armed forces were spies instead of being used by the
Japanese staff?

I can handle going through the messages and noting the
information the Japanese were passing back and the
plans made for spy rings, I can also handle noting how
few spies were caught and how few of them were
"ethnic" Japanese.
Post by WJHopwood
What you show
above are reports made by the Japanese consular
officials themselves of ongoing pre-war espionage
Doing their job gathering information for the most part
quite openly.
Post by WJHopwood
and the use of Japanese-Americans in the U.S. armed
forces to act as spies.
So your definition of espionage includes people reporting
what they openly see and hear. Can you tell us why "we
are securing" becomes "secured"?

Given your claimed full knowledge of the Magic Messages
how many Bremerton Navy Yard reports were there and
from whom? (Messages I, (175) II, (222), III, 133, 139
and IV, 121) Volume III messages mention the word spy
but no nationality.

Troop details?

How about your assumption any soldier that talks about his
life is a spy, if "ethnic" Japanese in the US in 1941? No
chance they are set up to be pumped for information at a
party or meal?
Post by WJHopwood
Yet there are some on this
thread who are in such a case of denial that they
contend that such espionage never existed and that
these reports were merely efforts by self-serving
low-level consular employees to impress their bosses
in Tokyo. Do you agree with that?
I agree with the others that you are simply so convinced
about the matter there is no chance you will change your
mind.

Essentially unless you can show a Japanese spy ring
that operated in the US that was never caught and used
"ethnic" Japanese we know what their efforts were and
how few spies there really were, once you deduct the
Japanese staff members doing what was their duty,
going around and openly learning about what was going
on in the US.

There was Japanese espionage in the US pre WWII,
mostly ineffective, outside of the diplomat/spy men mostly
by non Japanese, most of the reports you choose to label
as spy were not spy work.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Now tell us all, how many of the Magic messages have you
bothered to check to see if it was Japanese officials doing
the information gathering?
i'd say about the same number you checked to see if
it was only Japanese-Americans who did the gathering.
You have gone through and edited and proof read ALL
and I repeat ALL the messages? (And narrative text)

You are big on assumptions. That project took me several
weeks.

So given you have gone through all the messages what is
your breakdown of officials doing their own reporting,
citizens passing on what they heard and saw and reports
from spies?
Post by WJHopwood
At least I take the consuls at their word when they
say they were using resident Japanese nationals and
Japanese Americans to do espionage work, Why is it that
you and few others refuse to believe that the messages
said what they said?
Maybe because we checked against the prosecutions for
spies and noted that telling the embassy or consulate what
you openly see and hear is not spying.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
For what it is worth I helped create electronic copies
of all the > magic volumes. So I have the full set and
they are easily searchable.
I also have a complete set of the MAGIC series but they
don't stand alone.
Thanks for confirming my case on this topic you are going
to edit Magic messages to the point of them being misleading.
Post by WJHopwood
I also have a large number of other
documents related to Magic---ONI, MID, and FBI reports
which might ehance your perspective. I particularly
ONI March 12, 1941 "Japanese Espionage
Organization in the United States." ONI December 4,
1941 "Japanese Intelligence and Propaganda in the U.S.
during 1941" (24 pgs).
Did you actually notice the URL I put into the message?
Post by WJHopwood
December 24, 1941 "Japanese
Tokyo Club Syndicate with Interlocking Affiliations."
(39 pgs). And by all means the book, "MAGIC--The
untold story of U.S. Intelligence and the Evacuation of
Japanese Residents from the West Coast during WWII."
by former NSA intelligence official, David Lowman.
http://www.internmentarchives.com/
I am sure they can help me, but not you unfortunately.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
WJHopwood
2014-11-10 07:27:41 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:48:58 PM Geoffrey
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by WJHopwood
As for Michelle's misrepresentation of
what I wrote, a sentiment you appear to share,
please see my post in response to Michelle.
it applies to your complaint as well.
I like the way my post providing the full texts and
pointing out the gap between the edited and full
texts and answering the questions posed is a
complaint. I consider it a refutation of the claims
made...... the messages you chose to use were edited
to the point of misleading and then tried to further
mislead by not mentioning what you knew, who
Terasaki was.
I'm sure you "like" all of your posts since you
seem hypnotized by their length and deceptive
rendition of matters at hand..
The one above is particularly misleading with
regard to my random selection of the name Terasaki
to refute the following mistaken claim (later
corrected) by Mr.Rostrom:
"The only individuals named in any MAGIC
decrypts were among the handful of known
associates of Japanese consular spies..."
Only someone very dense or with
malicious intent could have come up with the
litany of false charges such as Michele made
and you endored about my alleged "bad faith"
in the editing of that post.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Actually people like Sorge are mentioned in the
messages. So I presume the idea was individuals
in the US ......
Only one Sorge is listed in the Index, Wolfgang
Sorge, and he is shown in Vol. IV Message #399
as the Tokyo correspondent for the German
newspaper Frankfurter Zeitung and was not, as you
say above, an "individual in the U.S." What does he
have to do with this discussion?.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by WJHopwood
I looked at a few Magic messges and Terasaki's
name was in more than one. His citizenship was
not mentioned, and it was unlikely that he had
"been busted long before Pearl Harbor."
So in other words you found a name, made zero
checks on who the person was and decided the
debating point was more important than you
doing the checks.
Sure. Checks were irrelevant to rebutting the
Rostrum quote as i think you must realize by now.
I was pointing out only that names were mentioned--
it didn't matter which names or their position in
life as I believe anyone with common sense who
was acting in good faith and read the message to
which i was responding and then read mine
should have been able to figure out from the
context--excluding yourself and maybe a
couple of your fellow-travelers.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Yet you claim to have all the Magic messages,
including the index
My claim is only that I own a complete set of
of the volumes in the DOD publication titled "The
Magic Background of Pearl Harbor" released in
1977. There are many Magic messages which have
never been declassified. Those in the DOD volumes
are confined to the principal declassified intercepts
which were pertinent to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Actually I made no accusation of bad faith,
You made it by association. IIRC, fully endorsed a
post by someone else who misunderstood and
misrepresented what I had written and charged
me with bad faith. If you concurred with that
as it appears that you do, have the guts to say so.
Otherwise you are being disingenuous.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
I pointed out the edited messages were
misleading and then answered the questions
posed and noted how messages claimed to be
from spies were well within the remit of the
relevant Japanese diplomatic staff.
All of which was a crock of nonsense. The truth is
that you got everything wrong about my post ,
and hopped right on the distortion bandwagon..
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Your words
"Oh, then Terasaki was just a chauffer and was
busted in December of 1941. How would you
know that? Source please?"
You are once again quoting out of context so let's
bring in the the exchange which set off such a
firesrtorm among those who misunderstood the
thrust of my message.:
ROSTROM:
" The only individuals named in any MAGIC decrypts
were among the handful of known associates of
Japanese consular spies, all whom had been busted
long before Pearl Harbor."

HOPWOOD;
"So Tersaki was busted long before Pearl Harbor?
How would you know that? Your source please?"

ROSTROM:
"Except a handful who continued to drive the
Japanese around and such, and who were all
picked up in December 1941. "

HOPWOOD:
"Oh, then Terasaki was just a chauffer and was
busted in December of 1941. How would you
know that? Source please? "
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Bad faith if you knew who he was, which
is what you are now claiming.
Why? Did I say he was a JA--NO. Did I
say that he was a spy--NO. Why do
you think that he was such an exalted
character that pointing out that his name
had appeared on the Magic intercepts was
forbidden? I couldn't care less what you
think. I'm just curious about what kind
of warped logic could lead to such a
conclusion.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Index, "Okamaru, Jap. in contact with U.S. labor
unions." In other words a Japanese citizen,
He could have been been a resident alien (a.k.a
Japanese citizen) but that's only your guess.
And a good guess. If he was working for the
consul it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure
out that he was likely to be a Japanese citizen.
Of course he might have been both a Japanese
and American (dual) citizen, it doesn't say.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Since you have chosen to be so misleading when it
comes to names mentioned, please state the evidence
you have "Okamaru" was a Japanese spy, as opposed
to being someone the embassy was using as a contact.
Who ever even hinted that he was a Japanese spy
except yourself? I never did. You apparently suffer
from hallucinations.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
"For the future" is in front of "we have made arrangements
to collect intelligences" so tell us all what reports were actually
made?
Who knows? I'm not clairvoyant. Of course your insinuation
is that no reports were made, but that's just a guess on your
part. To paraphrase the old saying: "The wish is father to the
invention.'
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Next tell us what evidence you have the people in the US
armed forces were spies instead of being used by the
Japanese staff?
What else could they be if they were "being used by
Japanese staff?" Used for what? To get information
about what;s going on in the U.S. Army, of course
This may come as a shock to you but by simple definition
if they provided ANY information to the Japanese staff
they were committing espionage. Just Google the word
"Espionage"
"The practice of spying or using spies to
obtain information about the plans and
activities especially of a foreign
government ."
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
I can handle going through the messages and noting the
information the Japanese were passing back and the
plans made for spy rings, I can also handle noting how
few spies were caught and how few of them were
"ethnic" Japanese.
Any is too many, and there were plenty of disloyal
JAs. Just read the ONI and MID reports I cited.
Also there were approx 7,000 JAs who fought on
Japan's side against us and over 5,000 more who
renounced their U.S citizenship to do the same.
And of course there was the matter of the loyalty
oath at the relocation centers at which time the
Japanese Americans were asked the following
question:
"Will you swear unqualified allegiance
to the United States of America and faithfully
defend the United States from any or all attack
by foreign or domestic forces and foreswear
any form of allegiance or obedience to the
Japanese emperor or any other foreign
government power or organization?"
In 1996 the U.S. Dept.of the Interior
realeased the results::
"Including the 234 who did not answer
the loyalty question, 9,905 Japanese Americans
did not answer the loyalty question with a "yes."
(The Evacuation and Relocation of Persons of
Japanese Ancestry in World War II--A Historic
Study" Chapter 14 p.672- U.S.Dept of the Interior)
Americans of military age did not answer
Altogether with the 7,000 serving in Japan's
armed forces, over 5,000 JAs renouncing their
U.S. citizenship, and 9,905d refusing to say "yes"
to the loyalty oath, the numbver of JAs of military
age whose loyalty was questionable totaled
more than 22,000 or over half their number.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by WJHopwood
What you show... are reports made by the
,> Japanese consular officials themselves of ongoing
Post by WJHopwood
pre-war espionage
Doing their job gathering information for the most part
quite openly.
Openly or under cover, a spy is a spy... The use of JAs in
the U.S. armed forces to spy for Japan was verified by the
Japanese themselves in the crypto interceptsl. Yet there are
some on this thread who are naive enough to believe that
the Japanese consuls were just saying that to impress their
superiors in Tokyo.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
.. espionage includes people reporting what they openly
see and hear. Can you tell us why "we are securing"
becomes "secured"?
When the potential enemy is telling us that he is "securing"
information it would be the height of folly not to take him at
his word.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Given your claimed full knowledge of the Magic Messages
how many Bremerton Navy Yard reports were there and
from whom? (Messages I, (175) II, (222), III, 133, 139
and IV, 121) Volume III messages mention the word spy
but no nationality.
So you like to play games? OK. I'll go along with you.
I'm presuming the reports marked as being from Seattle
to Tokyo you would say were from Bremerton. I count
four from Seattle (Sato's name on 3 of them. (Vol I msg 175,
Vol II msg 222, Vol III Sec.139, Vol IV Sec. 121).
The Vol III Sec. 133 report was from Consul Kenji in
Hollywood and Sec. 139 shows reports to Tokyo from
both Sato in Bremerton and Consul Muto in San Francisco.
They appear to have contradicted each other with regards
to the location of the British warship "Warspite," Muto reported
the ship had entered SF waters from Bremerton two days before
Sato reported the same ship was under repairs at Bremerton.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
For what it is worth I helped create electronic copies
of all the magic volumes.
Bully for you, but it doesn't seem to have improved your
acumen when it comes to the interpretation of their
contents.

WJH

m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-24 04:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
(Quote) The ONLY individuals named in
Magic decrypts were among the handful of
known associates of Japanese consular spies,
all of whom had been busted long before
Pearl Harbor. (Unquote) My emphasis.
That being an obvious misstatement,
Yet you cannot find one.
Post by WJHopwood
I looked at a few Magic messges and Terasaki's
name was in more than one. His citizenship was
not mentioned, and it was unlikely that he had
"been busted long before Pearl Harbor." His
Um, he was a Japanese DIPLOMAT. He was a REGISTERED diplomat in the US.
Post by WJHopwood
name and position was well-known to readers
of the Magic messages and thus a perfect name
So, Magic cleverly found that a Japanese diplomat was a Japanese agent?

Surely, a master-stroke of information.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
3. Military Contacts.
We are securing intelligences concerning the
concentration of warships within the Bremerton
Naval Yard, information with regard to mercantile
shipping and airplane manufacturer > movements
of military forces, as well as that which concerns t
troop maneuvers........ Recently we have ...made
investigations ..various military establishments and
concentration points....we have made arrangements
to collect intelligences from second generation
Japanese draftees on matters dealing with the troops,
As well as troop speech and behavior. -
Thanks for helping to make my case, What you show
If your case was "No names or details were sent via Magic", then, well,
that's not what most of us believe your case to be.

BTW, where' the Magic intercept actually showing what those troop movements,
behavior, etc, were?

Mike
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-23 04:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Rich Rostrom
The only individuals named in any MAGIC decrypts
were among the handful of known associates of
Japanese consular spies, all whom had been buste
long before Pearl Harbor.
You have this distressing tendency to creatively edit quotes.
Post by WJHopwood
How about this one and the fellow named here?
#41 Jan 30,1941 Tokyo to Washington
(exerpt) "...(1) Establish an intelligence
organization which will maintain liaison with private
and semi-official intelligence organs ...the focal
point ..shall be the determination of the total strength
of the U.S.....(using)....Our "second generation"
and our resident nationals...get the details from...
Terasaki......."
Others have answered, but
Terasaki, Taro, Director of the American Bureau, Jap. Foreign
Office; Brother was Chief of Intelligence and Propaganda in U.S.
Post by WJHopwood
So Tersaki was busted long before Pearl Harbor?
It's considered bad form to bust diplomatic personnel prior to the outbreak
of war.

Almost as bad as deliberately forging/misrepresenting quotes.

Mike
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-23 04:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
I haven't heard of any such prosecutions but there
was good reason not to do so. The MAGIC intercepts
continued throughout and long after the war was
over (the Venona project). The U.S. could not risk a
compromise of MAGIC and its related intelligence
methods and sources, whereas under the legal
You keep claiming this; it's nonsense.

MAGIC was ALREADY public. It was made public on an international scale.
The Soviets, Japanese, Germans, your aunts and uncles ALL knew we'd
broken the Japanese codes.

Nothing left to keep secret... except maybe for the utter failure to
unmask a single spy ring.

Now THAT might be embarrassing.

Mike
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-20 04:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
......Any prosecution would have required
exposure of the MAGIC intercept program
by which the espionage information was
being obtained. Our security people were
smarter than that.
Apparently not; the breaking of the codes was
national news after the surrender of Japan.
Not in detail. A few MAGIC intercepts having to do
with pre-Pearl Harbor negotiations between Hull and
A "few"?

You are seriously out of touch with the events of the time. MAGIC
intercepts were used to investigate the Pearl Harbor attack. MAGIC
intercepts were used to prosecute Japanese war criminals in Tokyo.
They were extensively used on both cases.

Should you be confused on that point, perhaps you had better read
Feis' book (published first in 1950)
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
In fact, as you should know, Magic intercepts were
introduced into the Tokyo War Crime's trials. Those
were very public, Mr Hopwood; at least my older
relatives remember them.
Nothing new there.
Then ist was dishonest of you to claim that the reason no nisei were
prosecuted post-war on the basis of MAGIC intercepts was some
desire to protect the secrecy of MAGIC. It was, after all, in all
the papers.

Perhaps you should read Lee's book; according to him, as soon as the
news was made public, post-war, that the US had broken the Japanese codes,
they changed them. All of them.

There were no secrets left to protect; and no undetected spies left to
prosecute.

Mike
Michele
2014-10-15 14:37:05 UTC
Permalink
This was an interesting thread about the role of the emperor _in Japan_.
For some reason, every time Japan in this war is discussed in this
group, the thread is derailed into the wisdom and fairness - or the
contrary of those - of treating US citizens as if they were enemy
aliens. And it's not as if new information is being posted.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-17 03:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michele
This was an interesting thread about the role of the emperor _in Japan_.
For some reason, every time Japan in this war is discussed in this
group, the thread is derailed into the wisdom and fairness - or the
contrary of those - of treating US citizens as if they were enemy
aliens. And it's not as if new information is being posted.
No argument here.

But the US treatment of Hirohito was pretty much in keeping with how
benignly they behaved towards Japan. The US went to considerable lengths
to offer Japan good "uncondtional" terms, and seemed to hope that they would
accept them. They kept Japan from being occupied by other allies (though
Australia had a token force in, I believe, Kyushu), and being divided
up like Germany. The Occupation itself ran about as well as it could
possibly be, and is remembered fondly by those Japanese who were there.
Hirohito was cooperative with the US, and even when the US returned
sovereignty to the Japanese, and was known to be very pacifist (he opposed,
for example, the enshrining of Class I war criminals in Yasukuni). This
implies (but doesn't prove) that he wasn't much of a war monger, and was
known to be a disappointment to the post-war nationalist elements in
Japanese politics.

Anyway, for some contrarian views on Hirohito, here's some stuff I
offered up some years ago:

Bergamini _The Imperial Conspiracy_, -- An account that squarely blames Hiro-
hito and the Japanese Imperial family for all acts of war, all atrocities,
failures of diplomacy, etc., in the 1926-1945 period. Relies quite heavily
on inference, as little hard data are available to support (or refute) the
conclusions. In much the same vein as Behr's book.

Behr, Edward _Hirohito: Behind the Myth_ -- (NY: Villard Books, 1989)
(Courtesy: ***@husc.harvard.edu, Jason Kim)
A journalistic biography, not by a Japan specialist. Starting with a very
complete treatment of Hirohito's youth, covers his career as emperor until
his death (though very little is said of the post-occupation period). Behr
clearly believes Hirohito was an active member of Japan's ruling elite and
no puppet, though he also emphasizes the limits of the emperor's power. Behr
does not hesitate to make his own opinions known, but is clear about what
the nature of the relevant evidence is--any attempt to describe Hirohito's
actions must involve much inference.

Mike
Stephen Graham
2014-10-14 16:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
It was not until 1977 that the vast
bulk of the intercepts were declassified and made
public by DOJ in its 8-volume series, "The 'MAGIC'
Background of Pearl Harbor."
And as we've gone round and round about repeatedly, none of the
intercepted messages did more than suggest that there might be a few
unspecified individuals involved in something that might be espionage.
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
As we've determined before, dual citizenship had no legal standing in
the United States at the time. Individuals were either US citizens or
they weren't.
Post by WJHopwood
Of course they could easily have renounced their
Japanese citizenship if they had wanted to, but few did.
Mike's addressed the numbers issue. Your assertion that the process was
"easy" is unwarranted. If you happened to live next to a Japanese
consulate, had a flexible schedule, and sufficient disposable income,
then it might be termed "easy". If, instead, you lived several hundred
miles from the nearest consulate, had a typical working-class or
farmer's schedule (all day, every day and what's a vacation?), and had
the typical Depression-era disposable income (none), it was pretty
difficult.
Post by WJHopwood
It has been estimated by a reliable source that about
7000 Japanese-Americans were in the Japanese armed
forces at the time of Pearl Harbor and fought against the
U.S. in WWII.
We are, however, discussing US citizens of Japanese ethnicity in the
United States. This is a different class of person.
Post by WJHopwood
Enemy aliens don't have Constitutional
rights.
Actually, yes, they do. Their rights are limited compared to a US
citizen's, but do exist.
WJHopwood
2014-10-15 05:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
It was not until 1977 that the vast
bulk of the intercepts were declassified and made
public by DOJ in its 8-volume series, "The 'MAGIC'
Background of Pearl Harbor."
And....none of the intercepted messages did more than
suggest that there might be a few unspecified individuals
involved in something that might be espionage.
Like saying they had Nisei in the U.S. Army who were
"keepiong us informed of developments" and "absolutely
reliable Japanese in the San Pedro and San Diego area
who will keep a close watch on all shipments of airplanes
and other war materials and report the amounts and
destinations....<UTF16-2028> They really didn't mean it right? Just
kidding.
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
As we've determined before, dual citizenship had no
legal standing in the United States at the time. Individuals
were either US citizens or they weren't.
No legal standing? What does that have to do with
their loyalry standing? Particularly when the other
half of the dual part is an enemy nationality. Doesn't
that stir even a slight interest in you which country
they may prefer? Even those who served in the
enemy army and came back to the U.S.to join the
Japanese ex-serviceman's league? Shouldn't our
security people have had an interest or would that
have been too "racist?<UTF16-2028>
Post by WJHopwood
Of course they could easily have renounced their
Japanese citizenship if they had wanted to, but few
did.
....Your assertion that the process was "easy" is
unwarranted.
OK. I'll take out the "easy." But if one doesn't have
enough feeling for his country of birth to suffer some
inconvenience to disavow loyalty to a potential enemy
(which Japan was long before Pearl Harbor) what
kind of loyalty to this nation is that?
Post by WJHopwood
It has been estimated by a reliable source that about
7000 Japanese-Americans were in the Japanese arme
forces at the time of Pearl Harbor and fought against the
U.S. in WWII.
We are, however, discussing US citizens of Japanese
ethnicity in the United States. This is a different class of
person.
No ir ian't. Thoae guys were born here. Went to Japan
to visit. Stayed there to fight us--some to be POW guards
and torture U.S. pow's. I knew some of their victims
and what those traitors did to them. Not pretty.
Post by WJHopwood
Enemy aliens don't have Constitutional
rights.
Actually, yes, they do. Their rights are limited compared t
a US citizen's, but do exist.
What would their rights be? Their property is
subject to seizure, they are subject to arrest, internment,
deportation. We can't agree on "waterboarding." Maybe
they shouldn't be beaten, starvedm, or murdered--all the
things the Japanese did to our POWs. But I wonder what
else we shouldn't do to them which is specifically verboten
under internatrinal law or political correctness?

WJH
Stephen Graham
2014-10-15 21:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by WJHopwood
It was not until 1977 that the vast
bulk of the intercepts were declassified and made
public by DOJ in its 8-volume series, "The 'MAGIC'
Background of Pearl Harbor."
And....none of the intercepted messages did more than
suggest that there might be a few unspecified individuals
involved in something that might be espionage.
Like saying they had Nisei in the U.S. Army who were
"keepiong us informed of developments" and "absolutely
reliable Japanese in the San Pedro and San Diego area
who will keep a close watch on all shipments of airplanes
and other war materials and report the amounts and
destinations....<UTF16-2028> They really didn't mean it right? Just
kidding.
None of the messages provide any substantive details: no names, no
concrete intelligence that can be traced back, nothing.

We know about the details of the Tachibana spy ring. Pedro Loureiro has
gone into depth. We know how many Japanese-Americans were in the
aviation industry in Southern California: two and they were under
surveillance. The Army knew who their enlistees were.

Despite your repeated insistence, there's nothing there.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
As we've determined before, dual citizenship had no
legal standing in the United States at the time. Individuals
were either US citizens or they weren't.
No legal standing? What does that have to do with
their loyalry standing?
That's the point. There's the legal issue of citizenship. Then there's
loyalty, which is an entirely separate issue. Or do we want to talk
about the white US citizens who sold info to the Japanese for money?
Post by WJHopwood
....Your assertion that the process was "easy" is
unwarranted.
OK. I'll take out the "easy." But if one doesn't have
enough feeling for his country of birth to suffer some
inconvenience to disavow loyalty to a potential enemy
(which Japan was long before Pearl Harbor) what
kind of loyalty to this nation is that?
You're awfully cavalier with the time and money of other people. Is it
OK if I tell you what to do with your time and money? If so, I'd be
perfectly happy to force you into a journey at the least convenient time
and by the most expensive means possible.
Post by WJHopwood
We are, however, discussing US citizens of Japanese
ethnicity in the United States. This is a different class of
person.
No ir ian't.
Logical fallacy. Specifically, the Associative Fallacy.
Post by WJHopwood
Post by WJHopwood
Enemy aliens don't have Constitutional
rights.
Actually, yes, they do. Their rights are limited compared t
a US citizen's, but do exist.
What would their rights be?
At a minimum, due process and minimal rights if charged and prosecuted
for an ordinary crime.
WJHopwood
2014-10-16 18:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Graham
None of the messages provide any substantive
details: no names, no concrete intelligence that
can be traced back, nothing.
Apparently you don't understand what the
function of military intelligence is or the part
played therein by MAGIC during WWII.
it was not to provide names, addresses,
and phone numbers to the local precinct
police starion so petty arrests could be made.
It was to contribute to the overall intelligence
picture pertaining to Japanese espionage (and
there was ample info from other sources that
such espionage existed) as part of a composite
which, when added to intelligence from ONI,
MID, and FBI, would provide guidance to those
responsible for making security decisions.
There were over 5000 wartime intercepts
declassiied in the 1970s and that wasn't
everything NSA had. I don't think you are
qualified, presumably on no more than
21st Century socio/politcal ideology, to
second-guess the judgement ofl those
responsible for national security in 1942.
Post by Stephen Graham
... There's the legal issue of citizenship....
loyalty...is an entirely separate issue. Or
do we want to talk about the white US
citizens who sold info to the Japanese
for money?
Well, if that's a point, I fail to see it.
Simply put, If a citizen is loyal to the enemy
in time of war, that could be treason, and
that would depend on how the disloyalty
is manifested. Certainly serving in the
enemy armed forces would be treasonous.
As for U.S.citizens selling info to the
Japanese, that's also treason, but I see no
difference in degree between the two other
than an your apparent attempt to minimize
the degree of the first type when compared
to that of the second.
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by WJHopwood
....Your assertion that the process was "easy" is
unwarranted.
OK. I'll take out the "easy." But if one doesn't have
enough feeling for his country of birth to suffer some
inconvenience to disavow loyalty to a potential enemy
(which Japan was long before Pearl Harbor) what
kind of loyalty to this nation is that?
You're awfully cavalier with the time and money of other
people. Is it OK if I tell you what to do with your time and
money?
No it isn't as you don't have any reason or authority
to do so. But the government does in some instances,
whether the country is at war or at peace. It's called
collecting taxes and obeying a draft Act even if we
are not at war. We had the draft as early as 1940. Lots
of Americans (me included) saw the handwriting on the
wall and voluntarily joined a military reserve unit long
before Pearl Harbor. It involved giving time and money
to do so but I don;t remember hearing that anybody
thpught it was a great sacrifice.
Post by Stephen Graham
i'd be perfectly happy to force you into a journey at the
least convenient time and by the most expensive means
possible.
I'm sure you would.
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by WJHopwood
We are, however, discussing US citizens of Japanese
ethnicity in the United States. This is a different class of
person.
No ir ian't.
Logical fallacy. Specifically, the Associative Fallacy.
Thank you, That's a much more gracious ad hominem
than I'm used to receiving from a moderator on this forum.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-17 04:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by Stephen Graham
None of the messages provide any substantive
details: no names, no concrete intelligence that
can be traced back, nothing.
Apparently you don't understand what the
function of military intelligence is or the part
played therein by MAGIC during WWII.
Apparently, you don't understand what he said; he's pointing out that
the cables the Japanese were sending back to Japan indicated nothing
of any concrete substance. No details of plans or leaders, etc.

It IS the function of military intelligence to find those details,
yet they could not find such in the Magic intercepts.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-10-17 23:54:30 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, October 17, 2014 12:14:04
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 Stephen
Post by Stephen Graham
None of the messages provide any substantive
details:... nothing.
Apparently you don't understand what the
function of military intelligence is or ...the part
played ....by MAGIC...
Apparently, you don't understand what he said
....the cables ....indicated nothing....No details ...
NO, what he said and clearly meant was that
MAGIC contributed "nothing." Of course that
demonstrates an ignorance of the entire COMINT
function and operation, a mind-set which you
obviously share.
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
It IS the function of military intelligence to find
those details,...they could not find in...Magic...
Details were not up to MAGIC. It was one of many
facets of the COMINT section of military intelligence.
Together MAGIC and COMINTs orher sectiona
provided a composite of intelligence information
as guidance for the decision-makers. Confirmation
from Japan itself that it was using Japanese resident
aliens and Japanese-Americans as espionage agents
that MAGIC provided was a valuable part of that
composite information. The fact that finding out
who they were and how many would have been
too time consuming. The Chief Justice was right.
"There was disloyalty on the part of some, the
need for action was great, and time was short."

WJH
Kenneth Young
2014-10-18 15:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
NO, what he said and clearly meant was that
MAGIC contributed "nothing." Of course that
demonstrates an ignorance of the entire COMINT
function and operation, a mind-set which you
obviously share.
As IIRC the US had only broken the Japanese diplomatic code prior to
WWII, it is hardly surprising that magic had little effect. The Germans
breaking Black had much more effect as the US military attache included
detailed appraisals of 8th Army plans in his messages home. Rommel found
that useful.
Michael Emrys
2014-10-18 19:39:53 UTC
Permalink
The Germans breaking Black...
I was under the impression that it was Italian intelligence that broke
Black, and that they were a trifle slow in passing it along to the Germans.

Michael
WJHopwood
2014-10-19 04:25:44 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:41:39
Post by Kenneth Young
Post by WJHopwood
NO, what he said and clearly meant was that
MAGIC contributed "nothing." Of course th
demonstrates an ignorance of the entire COMINT
function and operation, a mind-set which you
obviously share.
As IIRC the US had only broken the Japanese
diplomatic code prior to WWII....,
J
Not so. The Japanese military codes were
not related to the Japanese diplomatic
codes and the U.S. Navy was breaking
some of the Japanese naval codes as early
as 1926.
Their naval codes consisted of a variety of
systems some of which ONI's cryptographers
and traffic analysts were able to penetrate
off and on over the pre-war years and
continued to do so throughout the war. Two
notable results from this activity were the
advance warning of the Japaneee attack
on Midway and the shootdown of Japanese
Admiral Yamamoto.
Post by Kenneth Young
...it is hardly surprising that magic had little effect.
Oh, but information obtained by MAGIC had
a tremendous influence on wartime decisions.
David Loman, the National Security Administration
official who, oversaw the evaluation of WWII
documents for declassification in the 1970s,
(including MAGIC intercepts) had this to say
about it in his book:
"MAGIC...U.S.Intelligence and rhe Evacuation of
Japanese Residents from the West Coast During
WWII."
"Seldom has a major event in U.S. history
been as misrepresented as has U.S. intelligence
related to the evacuation. It has been twisted,
misquoted, misunderstood, ignored, and
deliberately falsified by otherwise honorable
people..The facts are that the... Japanese
government...working with local Japanese...
consulates..recruited Japanese residents to spy
on...U.S. military operations, the movement of
ships, airplanes, and troops...(and) it is
particularly significant that none of the key,
high-level officials...with access to MAGIC
intelligence opposed the evacuation,"

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-20 04:08:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
On Friday, October 17, 2014 12:14:04
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 Stephen
Post by Stephen Graham
None of the messages provide any substantive
details:... nothing.
Apparently you don't understand what the
function of military intelligence is or ...the part
played ....by MAGIC...
Apparently, you don't understand what he said
....the cables ....indicated nothing....No details ...
NO, what he said and clearly meant was that
MAGIC contributed "nothing." Of course that
Dead wrong again

"None of the messages provide any substantive
details: no names, no concrete intelligence that
can be traced back, nothing."

This is clearly a reference to any possilbe nisei being implicated.

You have this distressing tendency to become more "creative" in your
quotes as these threads continue. Just so you know...
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
It IS the function of military intelligence to find
those details,...they could not find in...Magic...
Details were not up to MAGIC.
You are confused yet again; everything that was in MAGIC was "up to MAGIC".
What was apparently NOT "up to MAGIC" was concrete details of spy rings,
agents, etc.

Hence, no one was ever brought up on charges in the US based on MAGIC.

Mike
Rich Rostrom
2014-10-20 09:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
It IS the function of military intelligence to find
those details,...they could not find in...Magic...
Details were not up to MAGIC.
MAGIC was a source of raw information.

Some of it was highly specific - e.g.
the dates and times of Yamamoto's tour
of the SW Pacific, which enabled the
U.S. to shoot down the plane he was
travelling in.

There were no details about Japanese
agents in the U.S. in any MAGIC decrypt.
Nor in any other source whatsoever. That
is because there were no Japanese agents
in the U.S. except the handful in known
contact with the Japanese consulates, who
were busted in mid-1941.
Post by WJHopwood
Confirmation from Japan itself that it was using Japanese resident
aliens and Japanese-Americans as espionage agents
that MAGIC provided...
You mean the statements by Japanese agents
covered as consular staff that they had
recruited unspecified numbers of Japanese-
Americans (and others) at unspecified
locations to provide unspecified intelligence?

Since there was no other evidence of any
spying or sabotage by Japanese-Americans,
these statements can't be said to confirm
anything.
Post by WJHopwood
The fact that finding out who they were
and how many would have been too time consuming...
What could be more important than identifying
the actual agents and determining what secrets
they might have breached, or what other persons
they might have subverted?

Was it also too much trouble to identify the
blacks and Mexican-Americans who were working
for Japan (according to the consular spies)?
Post by WJHopwood
The Chief Justice was right.
"There was disloyalty on the part of some, the
need for action was great, and time was short."
Warren was a politician who was complicit in
the internments - his later excuses are hardly
authoritative.

In any case, if "the need for action was great, and
time was short", why was nothing done for several
months? The Kibei who were obvious security risks were
all picked up in December.

The FBI and the Army were satisfied with that,
and nothing more happened for four months. if
the danger was so great, why this inaction?
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-17 04:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Post by WJHopwood
It was not until 1977 that the vast
bulk of the intercepts were declassified and made
public by DOJ in its 8-volume series, "The 'MAGIC'
Background of Pearl Harbor."
And....none of the intercepted messages did more than
suggest that there might be a few unspecified individuals
involved in something that might be espionage.
Like saying they had Nisei in the U.S. Army who were
And yet none were prosecuted after the war for what would be treason
(there's no statute of limitations on treason).

So, were the Japanese stretching the truth? Or were the people charged
with tracking down these "disloyal nisei" incompetent?

Mike
p***@gmail.com
2014-10-23 20:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
Those born in the U.S. before 1924 were 17 or older
at the time of Pearl Harbor and were also subjects of
Japan.under Japanese law.
Please explain just what possible effect Japanese law would have on
people in the United States?
WJHopwood
2014-10-23 23:55:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:41:03 PM pbrom
On Monday, October 13, 2014 5:59:57 PM
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
Those born in the U.S. before 1924 were 17 or older
at the time of Pearl Harbor and were also subjects of
Japan.under Japanese law.
Please explain just what possible effect Japanese law
would have on people in the United States?
It raised the question of loyalty in time of war. When
Japan attacked Pearl Harbor it became a question of
which dual citizens would be loyal to the U.S. and
which ones might not.
Dual citizens could have nullified their
Japanese citizenship but it was apparent that few had
done so. A reliable estimate of the number who did
renounce being only 8%.
According to the figures I show for the 1940
census, there were over 73,281 American citizens of
Japanese descent in Hawaii and 79,642 American
citizens of Japanese descent living in mainland U.S.A,,
the total being 152,923.
According to Prof. John J.Stephan, a renowned
expert on Japanese history and author of "Japan Under
the Rising Sun," dual citizens in Hawaii comprised over
60% of Japanese Americans and assuming the same ratio
in mainland U.S. brought the combined total to a figure
of over 91,000.
It was known that thousands of young dual citizen
Japanese Amereicans had been sent to Japan by their
parents in their formative years to be educated in Japan.
This total has been estimated at well over 15,000.
The loyalty of dual citizen (Japanese and American)
thus became a prime security concern of the U.S, after
Pearl Harbor. History has shown us that the extent of
that concern was confirmed by the fact that approx
7,000 Japanese-American duals had stayed in Japan
and were serving in the Japanese armed forces. fighting
against the U.S. during the war. In addition on the home
front over 5,000 more renounced their U.S. citizenship
and requested expatriaion to join the war on the enemy
side.

WJH
.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-24 04:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:41:03 PM pbrom
On Monday, October 13, 2014 5:59:57 PM
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
Those born in the U.S. before 1924 were 17 or older
at the time of Pearl Harbor and were also subjects of
Japan.under Japanese law.
Please explain just what possible effect Japanese law
would have on people in the United States?
It raised the question of loyalty in time of war. When
Did it raise the same question among German-American dual citizens? Of
those who had renounced their US citizenship?

Why were they not interned en-masse?
Post by WJHopwood
Dual citizens could have nullified their
Japanese citizenship but it was apparent that few had
done so. A reliable estimate of the number who did
renounce being only 8%.
Odd; you accepted as factual an earlier post where it was mentioned
that by the time of Pearl Harbor, only (at most) 30% of the nisei
were dual citizens (and tried to twist that to mean that those 30%
were disloyal.) That same post has references indicating that from
1924 to 1930, roughly 40% of those born pre-1924 renounced their
Japanese citizenship.

A far cry from "8%"

Mike
p***@gmail.com
2014-10-24 22:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by WJHopwood
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:41:03 PM pbrom
On Monday, October 13, 2014 5:59:57 PM
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
Those born in the U.S. before 1924 were 17 or older
at the time of Pearl Harbor and were also subjects of
Japan.under Japanese law.
Please explain just what possible effect Japanese law
would have on people in the United States?
It raised the question of loyalty in time of war. When
Japan attacked Pearl Harbor it became a question of
which dual citizens would be loyal to the U.S. and
which ones might not.
I can understand that somebody who had been educated in Japan could be suspect. But these people were known, identifiable, and easily separated
from the general population.

Loyalty is a matter of the heart. Please explain how a law passed in
Tokyo changes the heart of somebody born and raised in the United States?

And how much damage could a disloyal American of Japanese descent do? As
a relative of mine says, "Ok, so we get through the barbed wire. Then we
make it 100 miles through the desert to the nearest town with a movie
theater. Guess what... You're still a Jap!".
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-10-24 03:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
Those born in the U.S. before 1924 were 17 or older
at the time of Pearl Harbor and were also subjects of
Japan.under Japanese law.
Please explain just what possible effect Japanese law would have on
people in the United States?
And how they were Japanese citizens under Japanese law when they had
renounced their Japanese citizenship.

Mike
The Horny Goat
2014-10-27 18:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by p***@gmail.com
Please explain just what possible effect Japanese law would have on
people in the United States?
And how they were Japanese citizens under Japanese law when they had
renounced their Japanese citizenship.
Just because a person renounces citizenship doesn't mean the country
has to recognize the renunciation.

My late father was in exactly the same boat with respect to the United
States when he renounced his American citizenship when he became a
naturalized Canadian but that wasn't recognized by the US government
(presumably for tax reasons) which basically gave him the best of both
worlds for the sole cost of filing a US 1040 every year with $ 0.00
due due to the fact that while a US citizen abroad has to pay tax on
his worldwide earnings, they get a 100% US tax credit on taxes paid to
foreign jurisdictions which given the Canadian marginal tax rate is
higher than the US means $0.00.

(This is not tax advice: in the 1990s there were changes made where
some things are deductible in Canada but not the US so your taxable
income may well be different in both countries!)

In the Yugoslav situation mentioned previously the kid was a
naturalized citizen but that wasn't recognized in Belgrade and they
weren't issuing an exit visa until he had done his military service.
The grandmaster in question smuggled his stepson out of the country
and while they couldn't prove it was him, he was informed that if he
returned to Yugoslavia he could expect arrest.
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-11-01 03:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by p***@gmail.com
Please explain just what possible effect Japanese law would have on
people in the United States?
And how they were Japanese citizens under Japanese law when they had
renounced their Japanese citizenship.
Just because a person renounces citizenship doesn't mean the country
has to recognize the renunciation.
Japan had passed a law allowing that renunciation. Supposedly, they intended
to honor it. Certainly, such a renunciation made it more difficult, if
not outright impossible, to inherit property.

Mike
The Horny Goat
2014-10-27 18:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by WJHopwood
Yeah. And to dual-citizens. Japanese and American.
Those born in the U.S. before 1924 were 17 or older
at the time of Pearl Harbor and were also subjects of
Japan.under Japanese law.
Please explain just what possible effect Japanese law would have on
people in the United States?
It would tend to affect their ability to travel to Japan - I'm a chess
player and I knew of several prominent ex-Yugoslavians who wouldn't
play in Serbian events due to a possibility of being collared for two
years of 'national service'. One non-Yugoslav grandmaster with a
Serbian wife was persona not grata in Serbian chess circles for his
part in taking his stepson out of Belgrade (the authorities wanted the
kid in uniform)
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