Update: "Nazi loot found in Germany"

[WJHopwood]

Those interested in the Nazi seizure of artwork in
WWII may recall that about two years ago there was a
thread in this forum with a title similar to this one
which covered the matter of thr approx 1,200
paintings by famous artists which, in 2012, had
been discovered in storage in a Munich apartment
owned by Cornelius Gurlitt, the son of a Nazi-era
art dealer named Hildebrand Gurlitt.

The fact that the elder Gurlitt had worked as an agent
of the Nazi government to round up valuable artwork
for delivery to that government, some of which
ended up in the private collections of high-ranking
Nazi officials, set the scene for the belief by many
in the press and public that all or a large number of
the paintings discovered in the Munich apartment
would turn out to have been looted from wealthy
German Jews and museums in countries occupied
by Nazi Germany and had therefore attracted
considerable international media attention to the
Gurlitt discovery which, among other incidents
helped to inspire publicity for the release in 2014
of the movie starring George Clooney, "The
Monuments Men."

In today's New York times (01/14/16) there is a story
datelined Berlin which announces the completion of
work by the German art Task Force established to
determine ownership status of the Gurlitt paintings
at the time they were allegedly confiscated and it's
findings seem somewhat surprising, at least to me.

After all the initial hype over the Gurlitt discovery, two
years of research, and the expenditure of 1.8 million
Euros the German Task Force findings just released
report that of the some 1200+ paintings discovered in
the Gurlitt apartment, only five were determined to
have been, (in the words of the report) "wrongfully
taken from Jewish owners, four of which have been
returned to their descendants. The fifth work,...was
determined to have been looted, but it has not yet
been restituted. "

WJH

[Rich Rostrom]

of the some 1200+ paintings discovered in the
Gurlitt apartment, only five were determined to have
been... "wrongfully taken from Jewish owners..."

IIRC, the elder Gurlitt had been tasked by
the Nazis with disposing of the "degenerate art"
which the Nazis purged from museums and galleries.

I.e. from the collections of state-controlled
institutions or large private institutions, not
from private collections, the point being to
remove this "degenerate art" from Germany's
public culture.

Some of this art was ceremonially destroyed,
but the Nazis soon realized that it could be
sold off to foreigners for good prices. That
was to be Gurlitt's job; he scammed the Nazis
by keeping a lot of the best pieces for
himself.

[David Wilma]

Did Gurlitt and his heirs hold title to the other paintings
or would title have been held by the Reich and
consequently the Federal Republic?

[Roman W]

Post by WJHopwood
After all the initial hype over the Gurlitt discovery, two
years of research, and the expenditure of 1.8 million
Euros the German Task Force findings just released
report that of the some 1200+ paintings discovered in
the Gurlitt apartment, only five were determined to
have been, (in the words of the report) "wrongfully
taken from Jewish owners, four of which have been
returned to their descendants. The fifth work,...was
determined to have been looted, but it has not yet
been restituted. "

Modern Germany is still very reluctant to return the looted artworks.
Polish authorities have to wage legal battles for each painting.

RW

[GFH]

Post by Roman W

Post by WJHopwood
After all the initial hype over the Gurlitt discovery, two
years of research, and the expenditure of 1.8 million
Euros the German Task Force findings just released
report that of the some 1200+ paintings discovered in
the Gurlitt apartment, only five were determined to
have been, (in the words of the report) "wrongfully
taken from Jewish owners, four of which have been
returned to their descendants. The fifth work,...was
determined to have been looted, but it has not yet
been restituted. "

Modern Germany is still very reluctant to return the looted artworks.
Polish authorities have to wage legal battles for each painting.

No more reluctant than Russia, which will not return looted
artworks to Germany.

I do not understand why any looted art work should be
'returned'. War has redistributed art works for centuries.
Why should WWII be different? How many Americans have
offered to return Hitler's art works to the Germans from
whom they were taken?

GFH

[Michele]

Post by GFH
I do not understand why any looted art work should be
'returned'. War has redistributed art works for centuries.

Yeah. Then something you don't know about happened. People agreed that
pillage was forbidden. Hague IV 1907.

Post by GFH
No more reluctant than Russia, which will not return looted
artworks to Germany.

Those may well not be pillage, but war reparations. In that case, they
obviously don't need to be returned.

[Dave Smith]

Post by GFH
I do not understand why any looted art work should be
'returned'. War has redistributed art works for centuries.
Why should WWII be different? How many Americans have
offered to return Hitler's art works to the Germans from
whom they were taken?

You have a good point there. When the Spanish conquered the Aztec and
the Inca empires the plundered all the gold, silver and precious stones
they could and shipped them back to Spain. If people in the 21st
century are expected to return art plundered 3/4 of a century ago it is
logical that Europeans should return all the gold and silver it took
from their colonies.

On the other hand, wars are usually ended by treaty, and demands for
reparations are generally included in the treaty. I don't know of any
such terms involved in the cessation of hostilities in 1945. Germany
surrendered unconditionally.

Much of eastern Germany's industrial capacity was then plundered and
taken to the Soviet Union. I have to ask why industrial machines and
other facilities should be treated differently than art.

[Michele]

Post by Dave Smith

Post by GFH
I do not understand why any looted art work should be
'returned'. War has redistributed art works for centuries.
Why should WWII be different? How many Americans have
offered to return Hitler's art works to the Germans from
whom they were taken?

You have a good point there. When the Spanish conquered the Aztec and
the Inca empires the plundered all the gold, silver and precious stones
they could and shipped them back to Spain. If people in the 21st
century are expected to return art plundered 3/4 of a century ago it is
logical that Europeans should return all the gold and silver it took
from their colonies.

The Conquistadores had not signed Hague IV 1907. Germany had signed that.

[Dave Smith]

Post by Michele
The Conquistadores had not signed Hague IV 1907. Germany had signed that.

Okay. I can buy that, at least where it applies to art stolen from
occupied countries. I am not sure how it would apply to the art
confiscated within Nazi Germany. Nor am I sure how it would apply to
the Soviet Union, since it was signed by the Russian Federation.

[Michele]

Post by Dave Smith

Post by Michele
The Conquistadores had not signed Hague IV 1907. Germany had signed that.

Okay. I can buy that, at least where it applies to art stolen from
occupied countries. I am not sure how it would apply to the art
confiscated within Nazi Germany. Nor am I sure how it would apply to
the Soviet Union, since it was signed by the Russian Federation.

It was signed, naturally, by Czarist Russia. Indeed the Soviet Union
denounced all treaties signed by the Czar, and did not consider itself
bound by them. Nazi Germany was not in the same position, because on the
contrary it considered itself the successor state of the Kaiser's Reich
and bound by those treaties.

That said, I doubt the applicability or otherwise of Hague IV to the art
taken by the Soviets is really relevant. The Soviets would have probably
considered as pillage booty what might have been taken by individual
soldiers for their own pockets; I would bet that artworks taken by the
state were filed under war reparations, instead. And here your remark
about the surrender of Germany becomes relevant.

That leaves Germany in the worst position, yeah, but that's bound to
happen when you bully everyone in the schoolyard, steal their lunch
money, and finally find out that they all gang up against you, the most
hated scum of the school. You reap what you deserved.

Yet another case is when it comes to art confiscated to German citizens
(for instance, to German Jews); indeed, international treaties play no
part, and national jurisdictions have to deal with those cases.
National jurisdictions, however, may have a longer reach than one might
assume, as the case of Klimt's masterpiece, recently made well known by
a movie, will remind us.

[GFH]

Post by Dave Smith

Post by GFH
I do not understand why any looted art work should be
'returned'. War has redistributed art works for centuries.
Why should WWII be different? How many Americans have
offered to return Hitler's art works to the Germans from
whom they were taken?

You have a good point there. When the Spanish conquered the Aztec and
the Inca empires the plundered all the gold, silver and precious stones
they could and shipped them back to Spain. If people in the 21st
century are expected to return art plundered 3/4 of a century ago it is
logical that Europeans should return all the gold and silver it took
from their colonies.
On the other hand, wars are usually ended by treaty, and demands for
reparations are generally included in the treaty. I don't know of any
such terms involved in the cessation of hostilities in 1945. Germany
surrendered unconditionally.

An important point. Germany ceased to exist
as a country. There were 3 occupation zones.
The USA gave France part of its occupation
zone.

GFH

[Michele]

Post by GFH

Post by Dave Smith
On the other hand, wars are usually ended by treaty, and demands for
reparations are generally included in the treaty. I don't know of any
such terms involved in the cessation of hostilities in 1945. Germany
surrendered unconditionally.

An important point. Germany ceased to exist
as a country.

Nah. The last German government (Doenitz's) ceased to exist, not Germany
as a country. The government was replaced by the Allied joint military
government. The fact that the Western Allies themselves never considered
Germany no longer existing as a country is abudantly proven by their
attitude - which lasted for years - concerning the declaration of the
DDR, the Eastern German Democratic Republic.
I really don't know where you draw these outlandish ideas of yours from.

[RW]

Post by Roman W

After all the initial hype over the Gurlitt discovery, two years of
research, and the expenditure of 1.8 million Euros the German Task
Force findings just released report that of the some 1200+ paintings
discovered in the Gurlitt apartment, only five were determined to
have been, (in the words of the report) "wrongfully taken from
Jewish owners, four of which have been returned to their descendants.
The fifth work,...was determined to have been looted, but it has not
yet been restituted. "

Modern Germany is still very reluctant to return the looted artworks.
Polish authorities have to wage legal battles for each painting.

No more reluctant than Russia, which will not return looted artworks to
Germany.

Yes, but this is not symmetric - it was Germany who started the looting
(and WW2).

Also, why should Poland suffer because Germany has a quarrel with Russia?

I do not understand why any looted art work should be 'returned'.

It's a standard notion among art historians, that art works should ideally
be returned to the area they originated from.

War
has redistributed art works for centuries. Why should WWII be different?

Because there's progress. If there were no progress in customs of war over
the centuries, the German population would have been mercilessly
slaughtered in 1945. It follows that Germany, having benefitted from the
said progress, should return the favour.

RW

[Mario]

On Fri, 15 Jan 2016 00:17:27 -0500, WJHopwood

Post by WJHopwood
After all the initial hype over the Gurlitt discovery, two
years of research, and the expenditure of 1.8 million
Euros the German Task Force findings just released
report that of the some 1200+ paintings discovered in
the Gurlitt apartment, only five were determined to
have been, (in the words of the report) "wrongfully
taken from Jewish owners, four of which have been
returned to their descendants. The fifth work,...was
determined to have been looted, but it has not yet
been restituted. "

Modern Germany is still very reluctant to return the looted
artworks.
Polish authorities have to wage legal battles for each
painting.

I suppose everybody would do that. Normal procedure.

Then one can proceed quickly or slowly...