Finnish air-to-air victories in Lapland

[Cub Driver]

Recently this was the subject of dispute. Evidently the denial of
Finnish air force victories over German aircraft in the Lapland combat
that followed the peace treaty was the contestable opinion of one
researcher. See an English-language explanation at:

http://p196.ezboard.com/fwarbirdsforumfrm4.showMessage?topicID=288.topic

And the Finnish version at:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-LapinSodanKiisteltyKohtaaminen.html

"In short, Brewster pilots E. Teromaa and O.Hietala from HLeLv 26 are
officially credited with one Ju-87 kill on 3.10.44. Also on same day a
flight of four Brewsters damaged a Junkers 88, that escaped into a
cloud smoking. The Ju-88 was not listed as aerial victory, but the
remains of that plane were found later, and it is a "confirmed kill",
though it is still in the lists because the wreckage could not be
examined before it got destroyed.

"The confusion in the Ju-87 victories lies in the fact, that one
Finnish researcher claimed in the 80s that the kills are false."


-- all the best, Dan Ford

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--

[j***@faf.mil.fi]

Evidently the denial of Finnish air force victories over German aircraft in the
Lapland combat that followed the peace treaty was the contestable opinion of one
researcher.

I love the word "denial". It has such a wonderful echo, don't you
think?

... and if you don't mind, I'll snip the links that you've provided
completely, including the "English-language explanation" that you gave.
By the way, if you wish to have a conversation of these matters with me
in the future, don't quote exchanges from your own discussion boards as
authoritative cites. Instead, look for something more reliable and
scholarly.

(And even if we ignore that matter, well, the post that Jukka O.
Kauppinen made to you back then mentions quite clearly that the kills
remain unconfirmed.)

As for the Finnish internet article that you gave... if you could
actually read this language, you'd notice from the text that the
question of the downed Stukas is a controversial matter, and in spite
of the official claims that the FAF made at the time, these kills are,
to this day, nothing more but paper victories.

The Stukas have never been found and the German records contain no
evidence of this incident. The kills haven't been confirmed, so
consequently, as far as we can tell, there never even _were_ any kills.
Arguably something happened, but still, there's absolutely no clear
evidence to back the claim that the Stukas were shot down.

That's all that there is to it. I definitely wouldn't quote the story
of downed Stukas with the same certainty and confidence that you did,
but I guess that our standards of measuring historical accuracy must be
a little bit different.



Cheers,
Jalonen
--

[weasel]

Are the occurences of air combat between FAF and Luftwaffe in dispute?
(regardless of any success by either side...)

Could you recount any of those which are NOT disputed?

Wes
--

[Jukka O. Kauppinen]

Post by weasel
Are the occurences of air combat between FAF and Luftwaffe in dispute?
(regardless of any success by either side...)
Could you recount any of those which are NOT disputed?

Well, the Finnish Ju-88 shot down by German Bf 109 is not disputed, as
we know it was shot down, it is in the Finnish loss lists and one crew
member escaped, too.

The Germam two Stukas are disputed, though the Finnish archive
materials, combat reports and veteran's comments speak clearly that two
Stukas were downed. The German Ju-88 was not claimed as destroyed, but
it seems it came down as something resembling its wreckage was found,
but the wreck was destroyed when researchers came later to look for it.

So of three encounters, one is definitely confirmed, one is suspected
and one was not claimed as kill at the time.

Personally after lookin in the materials and speaking with people
related to the (Finnish) fighter unit, I do think the two Stukas are
down there in the swamps, unfound, though there are still other
mysteries on the case. As one author wrote, "Lappland war was not a
paper war", meaning that the fighting broke out so hard that required
paperwork was not always done. And this causes now problems to us who
look into those things later on. But the vets are of one mind on this
Ju-87 case, and Aarno Siro, who I spoke with about this, and the now
deceased unit leader Bruun were both definite that the fight took place
and the Stukas were downed.

jok
--

[Yama]

Jukka O. Kauppinen <***@jmp.spammitpois.fi> wrote:
: Personally after lookin in the materials and speaking with people
: related to the (Finnish) fighter unit, I do think the two Stukas are
: down there in the swamps, unfound, though there are still other
: mysteries on the case.

Well, yes. For example:

-no Stuka wreckage has ever been found
-no mention of such losses have been found, neither personnel
or equipment losses
-German Stuka pilot on that very mission claims that Finnish
fighters were spotted from a distance, but no combat took place

Of course, it worked other way around. Germans claimed another
Finnish Ju-88, which in reality escaped German fighters to a cloud,
according to crewmembers, not a shot was fired. Yet Germans gave very
detailed account how the Ju was shot down...
--