Nuremberg Executions

[Sam O. Singletary]

Somebody was selling a video on ebay some years back that supposedly
included a section showing the executions at Nuremberg in 1946 of the top
German leaders.

That ebay auction is the only indication I have seen that the executions
were filmed; otherwise I have never seen a word in print that said they
were.

The only hint of it was that the gymnasium where the gallows were
set up and the executions carried out, was described as 'floodlit' in the
long article describing the executions in Time magazine in October 1946.

The floodlights would have been needed for the film of the time, though it
could have been floodlit to make sure the observers got a good look.

Anybody know?

[Michael Emrys]

Post by Sam O. Singletary
Anybody know?

I've never heard of movies being made. There are stills of the executed
criminals, IIRC.

Michael

[samos]

Post by Sam O. Singletary
Somebody was selling a video on ebay some years back that supposedly
included a section showing the executions at Nuremberg in 1946 of the top
German leaders.
That ebay auction is the only indication I have seen that the executions
were filmed; otherwise I have never seen a word in print that said they
were.
The only hint of it was that the gymnasium where the gallows were
set up and the executions carried out, was described as 'floodlit' in the
long article describing the executions in Time magazine in October 1946.
The floodlights would have been needed for the film of the time, though it
could have been floodlit to make sure the observers got a good look.
Anybody know?

there were other war crimes trials other than those of the top
leaders, including other trials at nuremberg. i think they were
handled by the british and mostly involved concentration camp people,
ss types etc. there were forty of 50 of these executions, all in one
day -- handled by pierpoint, the official british hangman brought
over especially for these executions. perhaps these ones were filmed.
if you google pierpoint and nazis youd probably find something.

[Dave Wilma]

Last year on this NG ran a thread about these executions and U.S. v.
British techniques. The Nurnberg hangings took place at night indoors
and unless there were special lights brought in, film photography
might not have been possible. There are still photos of the bodies
afterwards on stretchers, with the nooses still around their necks.

The Army filmed later executions which took place outdoors. Here are
some Youtube videos of Britich hangman Pierrepoint in action on behalf
of the U.S. Note that he uses the cowboy noose popular among the
Americans. I detect no movement after the drop.

Some of Pierrepoint's duties and moves are echoed in the feature film
Pierrepoint: The Last Hangman.

These are Dachau defendants

Here is how the Czechs handled Karl Frank, Heydrich's deputy. I
understand that this particular method was obtained from the
Austrians.

Dave Wilma
Seattle

[Sam O. Singletary]

Post by Dave Wilma
Last year on this NG ran a thread about these executions and U.S. v.
British techniques. The Nurnberg hangings took place at night indoors
and unless there were special lights brought in, film photography
might not have been possible. There are still photos of the bodies
afterwards on stretchers, with the nooses still around their necks.

I've seen the pictures. As I mentioned, the execution chamber was
brilliantly floodlit, exactly as would be needed for the films of the time,
which is why I thought that the fellow on ebay might have been selling a
genuine video of the executions. But I suppose if it existed, it's likely
by now the film would have been up on youtube, just as are the ones below
that you mention.

Post by Dave Wilma
The Army filmed later executions which took place outdoors. Here are
some Youtube videos of Britich hangman Pierrepoint in action on behalf
of the U.S. Note that he uses the cowboy noose popular among the
Americans. I detect no movement after the drop.

I guess Pierrepoint was a real pro and an honorable man, and didn't let any
hard feelings interfere with ensuring a merciful dispatch of the condemned.

Unfortunately, sergeant Woods, who did the job at the executions of
October 1946 in Nueremberg, deliberately, from what I've read, made the
drop for Julius Streicher short, so that Streicher strangled on the end of
the rope. Woods ran down the gallows and under the curtain, and pulled
down on Streicher's legs to break his neck or at least hasten the process
of strangulation, if only to make it look like an error rather than
deliberate torture, not to mention to preserve the decencies; but if the
rumor is true, he let his own feelings of revenge get the best of him. A
pretty shabby performance, if true, and a black mark against the
Americans. If Pierrepoint heard about it he must have been disgusted.

Post by Dave Wilma
Some of Pierrepoint's duties and moves are echoed in the feature film
Pierrepoint: The Last Hangman.
These are Dachau defendants
http://youtu.be/n-uSYHYr3Ts
http://youtu.be/kphT1y75cug
Here is how the Czechs handled Karl Frank, Heydrich's deputy. I
understand that this particular method was obtained from the
Austrians.
http://youtu.be/LgPsUytsLmY
Dave Wilma
Seattle

Thanks, very grim but interesting stuff. It is interesting to see the
post-war horrors, which are as much a part of the war as the battle
footage.

[brandon]

A pretty shabby performance, if true, and a black mark against the
Americans. If Pierrepoint heard about it he must have been disgusted.

In some ways, It is better that the Americans did the hangings. The
British do the hangings secretly without any reporters or public
representatives (like the Belsen executions, of which we have no
eyewitness reports from the press). We wouldnt be reading about the
last moments of Ribbentrop or Keitel or Streicher if the British had
hanged them.

Also I am sure that the apparently flawless record of Pierrepoint must
be taken with a pinch of salt because there are no press reporters
(neutral witnesses) at British executions.

[Andrew Clark]

Post by brandon
In some ways, It is better that the Americans did the hangings. The
British do the hangings secretly without any reporters or public
representatives (like the Belsen executions, of which we have no
eyewitness reports from the press). We wouldnt be reading about the
last moments of Ribbentrop or Keitel or Streicher if the British had
hanged them.

Rubbish. The British did not allow gallows journalism (it was stopped in the
19th century), but they didn't hold executions in secret either.

An independent lawyer attended every execution to confirm that the accused
had died according to law; there was always a priest and a doctor present
and additionally two entirely independent witnesses specifically to report
back to the Home Secretary on the conduct of the execution. That's in
addition to the Governor or Deputy Governor of the prison in which the
accused had been held, at least two prison officers and the hangman. And, if
that small crowd wasn't enough, a panel of historians and academics were
given the opportunity to witness the executions of all the senior Nazi war
criminals and their dispassionate accounts were very often published.

Post by brandon
Also I am sure that the apparently flawless record of Pierrepoint must
be taken with a pinch of salt because there are no press reporters
(neutral witnesses) at British executions.

As shown above, while there may not have been any journalists (and since
when is a journalist a neutral witness?), there were several independent
witnesses at every execution.

[brandon]

Post by Andrew Clark
Rubbish. The British did not allow gallows journalism (it was stopped in the
19th century), but they didn't hold executions in secret either.
An independent lawyer attended every execution to confirm that the accused
had died according to law; there was always a priest and a doctor present
and additionally two entirely independent witnesses specifically to report
back to the Home Secretary on the conduct of the execution.

What rubbish? Government selected "independent" witnesses, sworn under
some oath of secrecy to report only to the Home Secretary in
classified files, is not the same as reporting to the public on the
next day or week. For example read this horror story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1187464.stm

"But files recently released at the Public Record Office show that
Henry Pierrepoint was sacked because he had arrived for an execution
in Chelmsford in July 1910 "considerably the worse for drink"..."

Your idea of independent witnesses is to make the public wait 100
years to get to read their observations? When John C Woods botched
hangings at Nuremberg it was reported on the next day itself, not
after 100 years.

[Andrew Clark]

Post by brandon
What rubbish? Government selected "independent" witnesses, sworn under
some oath of secrecy to report only to the Home Secretary in
classified files, is not the same as reporting to the public on the
next day or week.

Well, first you say that there were no witnesses, now you say that the
witnesses were not journalists so cannot be independent enough. Which is it?

You seem to have extraordinary faith in the independence and credibility of
journalists. What makes you think that journalists would be better than an
independent professional observer in exposing wrongdoing within the system,
if it existed?

The independent witnesses were members of the panel of independent
inspectors which every prison in the UK has had since the late 19th century,
drawn from the local magistrates and circuit judges for that area, together
with other independent professionals. They reported to the Home Secretary on
the conduct of all executions, including the ones of war criminals in
Germany after WW2, and their reports were published immediately after the
execution to prevent any propaganda stories that Britain had failed to
execute as humanely as possible. The reports are there in the National
Archives today.

And you seem to have forgotten entirely (and silently cut) the independent
lawyer, the priest, the doctor and the panel of academics and historians.
And, additionally, there was of course the defence lawyer representing the
accused.

Post by brandon
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1187464.stm
"But files recently released at the Public Record Office show that
Henry Pierrepoint was sacked because he had arrived for an execution
in Chelmsford in July 1910 "considerably the worse for drink"..."

A man turns up for work drunk and was sacked. That's a sign that the system
works, not that it didn't work.

Post by brandon
Your idea of independent witnesses is to make the public wait 100
years to get to read their observations?

Not at all. As I pointed out, there were at least 7 independent witnesses at
all of the British executions of all the Nazi war criminals. Three (the
priest, doctor and defence lawyer) were entirely free to publish whatever
they wanted immediately; two (the Home Secretary's witnesses) wrote a report
which was published immediately afterward and the remainder wrote reports
which were published according to need.

Your thesis that the British conducted their executions in secret is not
accurate or sustainable.

Post by brandon
When John C Woods botched
hangings at Nuremberg it was reported on the next day itself, not
after 100 years.

And this proves what? If the British had botched any executions, there were
ample ways for the news to get to the public, not least from the accused'
own defence solicitor. What the British didn't allow was ghoulish and
unsavoury execution-journalism. That's not the same as secrecy.

[brandon]

Post by Dave Wilma
The Army filmed later executions which took place outdoors. Here are
some Youtube videos of Britich hangman Pierrepoint in action on behalf
of the U.S. Note that he uses the cowboy noose popular among the
Americans. I detect no movement after the drop.

It appears that the hangman in the clip is not Pierrepoint.
Pierrepoint is usually clean shaven (no moustache) and his features
are somewhat different.

It is certainly surprising that the Nuremberg hangings were not
recorded on movie camera. Hangings and death penalty were very common
at that period of time (as you can see in the numerous YouTube videos)
and were recorded often.

[Dave Wilma]

Post by brandon
It appears that the hangman in the clip is not Pierrepoint.
Pierrepoint is usually clean shaven (no moustache) and his features
are somewhat different.

The taller man with the bow tie who fixes the noose and drops the trap
compares favorably with other photos of Pierrepont. I have no other
evidence of this man's identity. Pierrepoint did perform hangings for
the Army in England.

Dave Wilma
Seattle

[Hal Hanig]

Post by Dave Wilma

Post by brandon
It appears that the hangman in the clip is not Pierrepoint.
Pierrepoint is usually clean shaven (no moustache) and his features
are somewhat different.

The taller man with the bow tie who fixes the noose and drops the trap
compares favorably with other photos of Pierrepont. I have no other
evidence of this man's identity. Pierrepoint did perform hangings for
the Army in England.
Dave Wilma
Seattle

I find this interest in the identity of our hangman in Germany rather
ghoulish. Anybody who can stand on a platform, affix a noose around a human
being's neck, hear the spinal cord snap as or after the trap is sprung and
then go home and sleep at night after what to him was little more than
another day at the office has to be somewhat abnormal. IMO, he's no more
entitled to a page in the history books than the man who swept out the
stable during the days when the cavalry rode horses.

[D***@gmail.com]

Post by Hal Hanig

Post by Dave Wilma

Post by brandon
It appears that the hangman in the clip is not Pierrepoint.
Pierrepoint is usually clean shaven (no moustache) and his features
are somewhat different.

The taller man with the bow tie who fixes the noose and drops the trap
compares favorably with other photos of Pierrepont. I have no other
evidence of this man's identity. Pierrepoint did perform hangings for
the Army in England.
Dave Wilma
Seattle

I find this interest in the identity of our hangman in Germany rather
ghoulish. Anybody who can stand on a platform, affix a noose around a human
being's neck, hear the spinal cord snap as or after the trap is sprung and
then go home and sleep at night after what to him was little more than
another day at the office has to be somewhat abnormal. IMO, he's no more
entitled to a page in the history books than the man who swept out the
stable during the days when the cavalry rode horses.

At the end of the day the stables need to be swept. As to entitlement
to a page of history for the man doing the sweeping, its not up to you
or I but for those asking the questions about how the stable was
kept..............Doc

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Dave Wilma
Pierrepoint did perform hangings for
the Army in England.

No, British law works differently: servicemen sentenced
to punishments equal to or greater than X (two years in
prison?) are transferred for incarceration to the civil power
i.e. the national prison system. Servicemen sentenced
to death were similarly processed, i.e. kept in civil prisons
until hanged by Pierrepoint. (During WW1 some dozens of
British soldiers were executed by army firing squads after
sentence to death by field court martials in France: but this
was by policy avoided during WW2.)

These rules applied to all Allied servicemen in Britain
in wartime except only Americans. On the insistence
of the US government, the UK Visiting Forces Act
allowed US forces to maintain on British soil their
national system of law, courts and punishments.

[Louis C]

Post by Dave Wilma
The taller man with the bow tie who fixes the noose and drops the trap
compares favorably with other photos of Pierrepont.

http://www.pierrepoint.co.uk/albert.htm

For a picture, if that helps.


LC

[Andrew Clark]

Post by Sam O. Singletary
Somebody was selling a video on ebay some years back that supposedly
included a section showing the executions at Nuremberg in 1946 of the top
German leaders.

There was no filming of the executions after the IMT. There was debate about
whether the executions should be released in cinemas to prove that the
accused were really dead, but given that the Allies had just heavily
criticised the Nazis for their gallows cinema, it wasn't thought
appropriate.

There is a very small amount of genuine execution footage from that era;
most of it is fakes, some quite good Cold War-era propaganda or neo-Nazi
stuff.