SS war criminal found next door

[David Thornley]

Mikhail Karkoc (spelled "Michael" by the news sites) was a company
company commander, helped found the Ukrainian Self-Defense Legion,
served in the Galician SS division and his company was implicated
in atrocities relating to the destruction of the village Pidhaitsi.
He was found today to be living in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

On a personal note, he was a good neighbor. Friendly, quiet, helpful.
I suspected nothing until a reporter from a local TV station knocked
on my door. He's been living in the house next to mine for the
last ten years or so. The guy on the other side of him has his
picture in the London Globe.

I don't know why it took so long to find him. He's been living here
under his real name, and published memoirs (in Ukrainian) 18 years
ago.

I haven't seen him in a few days, and suspect he's left the immediate
area. If he's found, he will be denaturalized, deported, and stand
trial in Germany.

Okay, what's the odds? He's 94 (and still in excellent health).
Is there going to be another such war criminal found? Is the last
SS war criminal ever found going to have been living in the next
house?

[Rich Rostrom]

Mikhail Karkoc... served in the Galician SS division
and... was implicated in atrocities ... He's been
living in the house next to mine for the last ten years...

Wow. I have, a few times, had personal contact with
something that made national headlines.

But _this_ is astounding.

If he's found, he will... stand trial in Germany.

Why Germany? He is not a a German national, and his
crimes were not committed in Germany or against Germans.

Wouldn't Ukraine want him?

Okay, what's the odds? He's 94 (and still in excellent health).
Is there going to be another such war criminal found?

On Thursday I saw a presentation by the author of
_Last of the Doughboys_. The author, in 2003, decided
to seek out and interview any surviving US veterans
of World War _I_.

He succeeded in finding a fair number, including some
_female_ veterans. (The first authorized service of women
in American uniform was in WW I. About 10,000 women were
taken on by the U.S. Navy as "yeomanettes". They did
stateside clerical work, except for 5 who were sent to
Europe.)

These veterans were the last survivors of the 4M Americans
who served in WW I. They were aged 103 to 113.

The number of Nazi-affiliated war criminals was much
smaller - probably on the order of 400,000. I'd
think the immediate death rate among them much higher
than in WW I U.S. forces, which were relatively
briefly engaged, and didn't lose the war.

There was a lot of exchange between the
Totenkopfverbande and the Waffen-SS combat units, and
the Waffen-SS had a very high casualty rate.

The same would apply to the "SS Foreign Legions".

A fair number were killed out of hand in the last
days of the war. There were reportedly many occasions
in April/May 1945 when American and British troops
intercepted SS men driving captives on "death marches",
and, ahem, declined to accept their surrender. I don't
think the Soviets were less ruthless, nor the partisans
and resistance forces.

Many of the SS "Osttruppen" who surrendered to British
and American forces were returned to Soviet control in
Operation KEELHAUL. Of these, many were executed as
traitors, or sent to slave labor camps with high death
rates.

I discount the explicit proceedings against war criminals,
as only a relatively small number of high-ranking
murderers were executed. Likewise the activities of
Jewish and other "death squads" who hunted down some
of the most notorious. They didn't bother with small
fry like Karkoc, who would have been 26 in 1945.

For those who survived the war and its aftermath,
conditions were not favorable. They had to live
in the ruins of Europe or (usually) impoverished
exile. It's well known that many ex-SS men enlisted
in the Legion Etrangere, not likely to result in a
ripe old age, and died in places like Dien Bien Phu.

OTOH, it is now 68 years after V-E Day, whereas the
author of _LotD_ started his search 85 years after
the Armistice.

If there were 100,000 war criminals left after all
that... that's 1/40 of the U.S. WW I army, and the
author found over 40 living veterans IIRC. So it
seems possible that there might be one left alive
2030, and thus many more now.

I don't know how Karkoc was found. But I'd guess it
had to do with the Internet, which makes searches
and linkages of all kinds far easier.

So yes, I think there will be another, perhaps several.

Is the last SS war criminal ever found going to have
been living in the next house?

The next house to _somebody_, presumably.

[Henry]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Mikhail Karkoc... served in the Galician SS division
and... was implicated in atrocities ... He's been
living in the house next to mine for the last ten years...

Wow. I have, a few times, had personal contact with
something that made national headlines.
But _this_ is astounding.

If he's found, he will... stand trial in Germany.

Why Germany? He is not a a German national, and his
crimes were not committed in Germany or against Germans.
Wouldn't Ukraine want him?

Okay, what's the odds? He's 94 (and still in excellent health).
Is there going to be another such war criminal found?

On Thursday I saw a presentation by the author of
_Last of the Doughboys_. The author, in 2003, decided
to seek out and interview any surviving US veterans
of World War _I_.
He succeeded in finding a fair number, including some
_female_ veterans. (The first authorized service of women
in American uniform was in WW I. About 10,000 women were
taken on by the U.S. Navy as "yeomanettes". They did
stateside clerical work, except for 5 who were sent to
Europe.)
These veterans were the last survivors of the 4M Americans
who served in WW I. They were aged 103 to 113.

I know this is veering off-topic a bit but it is relevant to the
question of human longevity.

I remember being quite suprised to learn that the last veteran of the US
Civil War died in 1959, just shy of a century after that war ended. (As
I recall, he had been a very young drummer boy; I'm not sure if he
actually fired a weapon in the conflict.) But that war seems so long
ago, that I hadn't really considered that many Civil War veterans were
still alive during WW I and a few lived to see WW II.

I was even more surprised to read an article a few years ago that said
there are still living WIDOWS of Civil War veterans. Apparently, some
aging veterans married very young women in their declining years and
some of those women are still alive. I'm not sure if they are entitled
to some sort of pension or if those pensions only came along after later
wars but I find it a bit unsettling that the government would still be
paying pensions for a war that ended almost 150 years ago.

[Padraigh ProAmerica]

There are peope employed in the Dept. Justice- Office of Special
Investigations whose jobs depend on finding elderly former Nazis and
charging them with crimes.

120 years after the end of the war, OSI will still be hunting for Nazi
war criminals

--
"Never try to outstubborn a cat."--

Robert A. Heinlein--

[Bill]

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
There are peope employed in the Dept. Justice- Office of Special
Investigations whose jobs depend on finding elderly former Nazis and
charging them with crimes.

And quite right too.

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
120 years after the end of the war, OSI will still be hunting for Nazi
war criminals

Somehow I doubt that...

[a425couple]

Post by Bill

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
There are peope employed in the Dept. Justice- Office of Special
Investigations whose jobs depend on finding elderly former Nazis and
charging them with crimes.

And quite right too.

If the above indicates you are fully in support of continued
investigation, prosecution & punishment for over 68 year
old crimes, then I'm a bit surprised at your view.

I do not particularly object to above, but am just so saddened
at current resources being used for such, when so many
currently active & still very dangerous individuals are
not properly investigated, prosecuted & punished just
because of lack of resources (funds).

There are obviously strongly felt opinions on both sides.
I feel one of the more valid considerations about this comes
from the decisions made in the other WWII theater.

During WWII Japan captured around 150,000 'white'
(USA, UK & Dutch) POWs. There were many
war crimes that killed about 33% (or ~50,000).
The Allies clearly had very good witnesses against
a very large number of clearly known & named Japanese,
for very clear and specific criminal acts.
(And generally, these 'factors' making prosecution somewhat
'easy' in the Pacific, were much more difficult in Europe!)
A very excellent book on this topic is "Prisoner's of the
Japanese" by Gavin Dawes.

(from recall - treat below as rough idea but not exact #)
A notable number (20-30?) and high percentage of the very
top 'criminals' were prosecuted, and around 5,000 of the
lower level 'criminals' were tried in the first 2 years after
the war. But then the prosecutions stopped.
The interest in retribution was mostly gone.

Justice can NEVER be perfect.
At what point, does it pass being worth it?
Around 1947, the USA administration, just said "enough",
and decided to move on.
Concentrate on the now, & the future.

It is always easier and more efficient and more accurate,
(for after all, I'm sure neither of us wants to punish any
person who is not guilty!)
to prosecute recent cases than old ones, and I'm uneasy
about spending huge costs (money, emotional & political)
on now, 68 years after we could have, pursuing criminal cases
against the German or Japanese war time prisoner guards who
killed?

Or, in trying for "perfect justice" should we pursue
cases for war crimes against Allied troops?
(For we clearly know that some did crimes)

And,,, meanwhile related, although there is no statute
of limitations for murder, why do you think there even is
a "statute of limitations" for any crime?

(Hint = "statute of limitations" are designed to prevent fraudulent
and stale claims from arising after all evidence has been lost or
after the facts have become obscure through the passage of time
or the defective memory, death, or disappearance of witnesses.)
It is also there to prevent misuse of authority by the government,
in just holding on to 'gott'chas'.

In my state, it is presumed that anyone under age 12 is incapable
of committing a crime. So any WWII criminal would now be
80 years old. Seems to me, not a current threat.

I would rather, we spend our very limited assets on current threats.
For example:
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20130104/chicago-citywide/chicago-murder-clearance-rate-worst-more-than-two-decades
"CHICAGO - In 2012, the body count - 506 murders - marked
Chicago as America's murder capital.
But here's another grim statistic: Chicago police solved just 129 of
those killings last year, a 25 percent clearance rate - the lowest in 21
years.
And even when police clear murder cases, that doesn't mean someone
always gets charged with murder.
Last year, 12 murders - or 9 percent of solved cases - were
cleared "exceptionally." That means a suspect has been identified,
but charges weren't filed because the suspected killer is dead,
witnesses refuse to testify, or prosecutors refuse to bring charges
without more evidence.
Police also solved an additional 60 homicides that occurred in
previous years. Thirty-one of those cases were cleared exceptionally
without charges being filed."
I'd tend to think, many who committed murder in 2012,
will continue to commit crimes for years to come until stopped.

Just an absolute fact of government, and of the criminal justice
system. No city, county, state, or country that I am now aware
of, thinks it has extra money easily at hand to spend on new projects.
Investigations & prosecutions are expensive.
To move more assets to one area, (i.e. 1945 crimes), you will
probably be reducing in another (i.e. from 2012 ID theft & fraud).

So, Just where, would you prefer to spend limited assets?

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by a425couple

Post by Bill

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
There are peope employed in the Dept. Justice- Office of Special
Investigations whose jobs depend on finding elderly former Nazis and
charging them with crimes.

And quite right too.

Justice can NEVER be perfect.
At what point, does it pass being worth it?

At some point, it isn't justice -- it's vengeance, or, if you prefer, "making
a point".

It doesn't sound pretty to put it that way, but it's a valid point of view;
sometimes, you want to make examples of people involved in something like
the Holocaust. Now, I have have no information about the culpability of the
individual involved in the current case, but I certainly understand the
motive of the hunters.

Mike

[Bill]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by a425couple

Post by Bill

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
There are peope employed in the Dept. Justice- Office of Special
Investigations whose jobs depend on finding elderly former Nazis and
charging them with crimes.

And quite right too.

Justice can NEVER be perfect.
At what point, does it pass being worth it?

At some point, it isn't justice -- it's vengeance, or, if you prefer, "making
a point".

The point is that it's only vengeance after they're dead.