Why did the Sten fire 9mm ammo?

[Daniel Titley]

Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

[Roger Hull]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

Previous British submachine guns had used the 9mm (Lanchester) and
manufacturing facilities were already in place. Also captured German ammo
could be used by resistance groups. The .38 is a rimmed cartridge, not
suitable for automatic weapons.
--

[mike]

Post by Roger Hull
Previous British submachine guns had used the 9mm (Lanchester) and
manufacturing facilities were already in place. Also captured German ammo
could be used by resistance groups.

With Thompson SMGs LL in hand, odd that there weren't some in .45
for common ammo use with commando groups and such early in the war,
or conversion kits like the US greasegun had to switch betwen calibers

Post by Roger Hull
The .38 is a rimmed cartridge, not
suitable for automatic weapons.

Just takes a little more thinking, having the rim didn't
stop the Soviets from having 7.62x54R automatics, as with the UK
.303 round in the BREN

**
mike
**
--

[chang]

Post by mike
With Thompson SMGs LL in hand, odd that there weren't some in .45
for common ammo use with commando groups and such early in the war,
or conversion kits like the US greasegun had to switch betwen calibers

Was the .45 a common British round? I don't believe so but could
certainly be wrong. ISTM that 9mm would be far more common and be
interchangeable with some of their handguns (e.g., HiPowers, etc). In
addition, you can 1) carry more rounds, 2) more easily find 9mm than .45
rounds on the battlefield, and 3) have more penetration. While more
penetration is bad in the civilian world, it wouldn't seem to me to be a
bad thing in battle.

Post by mike

Post by Roger Hull
The .38 is a rimmed cartridge, not
suitable for automatic weapons.

Just takes a little more thinking, having the rim didn't
stop the Soviets from having 7.62x54R automatics, as with the UK
.303 round in the BREN

But why step down in power? 9mm has more M.E. than standard .38s, and
.38s take up more room to boot.

Phil
--

[Robert Sveinson]

Post by chang

Post by mike
With Thompson SMGs LL in hand, odd that there weren't some in .45
for common ammo use with commando groups and such early in the war,
or conversion kits like the US greasegun had to switch betwen calibers

Was the .45 a common British round?

The 9mm round was deliberately selected because it was the same as the
Schmeisser MP 38.
The Sten itself was cheap to produce, it cost about 30 shillings [
1pound 50 today's currency].

The name STEN is derived from the names of the designers [S] R.V.
Shepperd, [T] H.J. Turpin
and [EN] from ENfield of the Royal Ordnance factory at ENfield!!

Designed June, 1941!!

It came in variuos MARKS, incorporating various methods of holding the
gun!


I don't believe so but could

Post by chang
certainly be wrong. ISTM that 9mm would be far more common and be
interchangeable with some of their handguns (e.g., HiPowers, etc). In
addition, you can 1) carry more rounds, 2) more easily find 9mm than .45
rounds on the battlefield, and 3) have more penetration. While more
penetration is bad in the civilian world, it wouldn't seem to me to be a
bad thing in battle.

Post by mike

Post by Roger Hull
The .38 is a rimmed cartridge, not
suitable for automatic weapons.

Just takes a little more thinking, having the rim didn't
stop the Soviets from having 7.62x54R automatics, as with the UK
.303 round in the BREN

But why step down in power? 9mm has more M.E. than standard .38s, and
.38s take up more room to boot.
Phil
--

[Osmo Ronkanen]

Post by Robert Sveinson
The 9mm round was deliberately selected because it was the same as the
Schmeisser MP 38.
The Sten itself was cheap to produce, it cost about 30 shillings [
1pound 50 today's currency].

MP-38 was a design by Heinrich Vollmer. The weapon to whcih Ten was based
was MP-28 i.e. Schmeisser. As to the cost of Sten it was 3-5 pounds and
that's about 100 pounds in current money. The cost of a Rifle No 4
was 6-7 pounds and a Bren 40 pounds so the Sten was really not so
cheap as you say. I do not know it the price includes magazines. Eight
magazines can cost almost as much as the gun itself.

Osmo
--

[Robert Sveinson]

Post by Osmo Ronkanen

Post by Robert Sveinson
The 9mm round was deliberately selected because it was the same as the
Schmeisser MP 38.
The Sten itself was cheap to produce, it cost about 30 shillings [
1pound 50 today's currency].

MP-38 was a design by Heinrich Vollmer. The weapon to whcih Ten was based
was MP-28 i.e. Schmeisser. As to the cost of Sten it was 3-5 pounds and
that's about 100 pounds in current money.

If you are disputing my statement, I was quoting M.R.D. Foot,
author of
SOE 1940-1946. He claims, also to have used stens on operations, and
is a highly
respected historian!!

You might supply references for the sake of arguement, or
not.........

[ian maclure]

Post by chang

Post by mike
With Thompson SMGs LL in hand, odd that there weren't some in .45
for common ammo use with commando groups and such early in the war,
or conversion kits like the US greasegun had to switch betwen calibers

Was the .45 a common British round? I don't believe so but could

[snip]

No, they had a .455 round somewhat akin to .450 AutoRim in
size and performance. I'm told I could could shoot it from
my 1915 S&W Triple Lock in .455 if I chose to.

IBM

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[**bg**]

Post by ian maclure

Post by Roger Hull
The .38 is a rimmed cartridge, not
suitable for automatic weapons.

_____________________________

I think the power of the .303 Bren cartridge - thus its recoil ability to
drive the breech block, eject the round, recock the weapon, deliver and
insert the new round - is beyond the power of a 9mm round (for a weapon of
the range of the Bren).

The Sten was a silly little thing; would love to have one to fire at the
range now.

www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

I believe it was so that captured German ammunition
could be used. The Sten was intended for (among other
uses) distribution to Resistance forces in occupied
Europe.

[Scott Carter]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

I believe it was so that captured German ammunition
could be used. The Sten was intended for (among other
uses) distribution to Resistance forces in occupied
Europe.

My recollection (I believe from the Ballantines WWII Weapons #25, which I no
longer have) is that the British captured a huge stock of 9mm Parabellum
(used by e.g. the Beretta military automatics of the time) from the Italians
in East Africa, and that the desire to make use of that stock was a
ignificant factor in the choice for the Sten - the utility of the Sten's
mmunition supply as a partisan weapon not being part of the original
onsideration at all but merely serendipitous.

But a quick google search finds nothing to confirm this.

Post by Rich Rostrom
--
Nothing which was ever expressed originally in the English language resembles,
except in the most distant way, the thought of Plotinus, or Hegel, or Foucault.
I take this to be enormously to the credit of our language. -- David Stove

Scott C.
--

[Michele Armellini]

Post by Scott Carter

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

I believe it was so that captured German ammunition
could be used. The Sten was intended for (among other
uses) distribution to Resistance forces in occupied
Europe.

My recollection (I believe from the Ballantines WWII Weapons #25, which I no
longer have) is that the British captured a huge stock of 9mm Parabellum
(used by e.g. the Beretta military automatics of the time) from the Italians
in East Africa, and that the desire to make use of that stock was a
ignificant factor in the choice for the Sten -

I doubt that for several reasons. First, the amount captured would not be
"huge"; the Italians had nothing huge in the way of supplies in East Africa.
Second, the timing seems suspicious. Third, the Mod. 38A 9mm round fired by
the Beretta was slightly more powerful than a standard 9mm Parabellum, which
would make firing it with an already malfunction-prone Sten something of a
hazard.

[tim gueguen]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round,

Because rimmed revolver cartridges don't work well in automatic weapons.

Post by Daniel Titley
or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

Why should it have been? Besides, the Lanchester, a copy of the German
MP28, had already gone into production in 9mm.

tim gueguen 101867
--

[O.D. Blouse]

Stens were dropped by SOE/OSS planes to Resistance Forces in Europe in large
numbers, both in the mass daylight drops of Jun-Sep '44 and the night drops
of 1943-45. Resistance forces were expected to augment the ammo dropped
with them by capturing enemy supplies.

Source: OSS London War Diary - Air Operations

TE, ret.
www.carpetbaggerops.org
ftp://67.164.250.95

Post by tim gueguen

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round,

Because rimmed revolver cartridges don't work well in automatic weapons.

Post by Daniel Titley
or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

Why should it have been? Besides, the Lanchester, a copy of the German
MP28, had already gone into production in 9mm.
tim gueguen 101867
--

[JDupre5762]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

Don't know but maybe because they knew that 9mm Parebellum was very common in
Europe where a lot of Stens were dropped to the resistance?

John Dupre'
--

[Typhoon News User]

|
| Don't know but maybe because they knew that 9mm Parebellum was very common in
| Europe where a lot of Stens were dropped to the resistance?

To weigh in on this topic, excuse the pun, the Sten was a light carbine with a breach
block spring recoil design. Consequently it was subject to accidental discharge, when
dropped, resulting in a dance called Sten Stepping by the 3'rd Canadian Para's. First
used in combat by the Canadians at Dieppe it was light and featured a high rate of fire.
It was notoriously hot on full auto on the 2'nd and subsequent clips. It was frequently
cooled by urine.

Any rounds heavier than the 9mm-P would have required a heavier trigger, block and
barrel. Its original design was for close in fighting that could be carried by
section/squad gunners and paratroops. It's magazine length was exactly that of the
British and Canadian 1937 infantry webbing kit. It fit a Para bandolier at thirty
inches. It was designed/reverse engineered from the German MP-40 by Major RV Shepherd
and Mister HJ Turpin. While it was popular amongst the resistance due to the ease of
concealment, it was not designed with them in mind.

It is right hand rifled at 2 or 8 sworls depending on the version and there was really
no other round that could offer 1250 FPS of muzzle velocity at 200 yards except the
9mm-P and still be fired by a breach block carbine.

Here is a poem that summarized a section gunners sentiments about it:

Ode to a Sten Gun
By Gunner. S.N. Teed

You wicked piece of vicious tin!
Call you a gun? Don't make me grin.
You're just a bloated piece of pipe.
You couldn't hit a hunk of tripe.
But when you're with me in the night,
I'll tell you pal, you're just right!

Each day I wipe you free of dirt.
Your dratted corners tear my shirt.
I cuss at you and call you names,
You're much more trouble than my dames.
But boy, do I love to hear you yammer
When you 're spitting lead in a business manner.

You conceited pile of salvage junk.
I think this prowess talk is bunk.
Yet if I want a wall of lead
Thrown at some Jerry's head
It is to you I raise my hat;
You're a damn good pal...
You silly gat!







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[Don Phillipson]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

To use all the Italian 9mm. ammunition
captured in North Africa 1940-41.

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[mike]

Post by Don Phillipson
To use all the Italian 9mm. ammunition
captured in North Africa 1940-41.

Which does sound good, but the UK didn't do much with all that
6.5mm Carcano they captured warehouses full of, though.

They liked the 20mm Breda, but didn't produce more that I'm aware of.

I didn't think they were that short of pistol ammo, and besides,
captured supplies don't last forever, in time some arsenal
would have to make more anyway in time.

Post by Don Phillipson
From the other post, the M3A1 weighed about a pound more than

a STEN, and info on that lists 12 pound cocking effort
and a 2 pound bolt. I'd imagine the conversion with the
9mm barrel & STEN mag adapter, used a lighter weight bolt
than what the .45 used, but was unable to dig up that info.

Back to my original Commando line of thought, .45 is easier
for silencer work than 9mm, and if some troops were
already equipped with Thompsons, wouldn't a STEN that used
Thompson compatable(or based off of) magazines(not drum) been
a better idea, esp. since the magazine, which to me seems
to be more a knockoff of the MP40 type, was the main cause
of the STEN getting a bad rap on reliablity?

**
mike
**
--

[Andrew Clark]

Post by Don Phillipson
To use all the Italian 9mm. ammunition
captured in North Africa 1940-41.

According to Hogg, this is a myth. The UK ordered 110
million rounds of 9mm ammunition from the US in June 1940 at
the same time as placing an order for 50,000 Lanchester
guns, which were copies of the German MP28 firing the same
ammunition.

In January 1941, however, Shepherd and Turpin produced a
simplified Lanchester design known as NOT 40/1. The original
Lanchester order was cancelled mid-production and the
revised design, christened the Sten Mk 1, substituted.
Volume production of the Sten Mk 1 began in June 1941.

[Tank Fixer]

In article <ciusns$***@gazette.corp.bcm.tmc.edu>,
on 23 Sep 2004 11:13:48 -0500,

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

To use all the Italian 9mm. ammunition
captured in North Africa 1940-41.

Except I don't believe the italian 9mm was the same

[Robert Sveinson]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

So that German ammunition could be used. Easier to get locally than
having all of it flown in!!

[Don Phillipson]

Post by mike
With Thompson SMGs LL in hand, odd that there weren't some in .45
for common ammo use with commando groups and such early in the war,
or conversion kits like the US greasegun had to switch betwen calibers

The Sten was a British project not integrated with
US procurement. A Sten for us .45-cal. ammunition
would need to be much heavier for three times the
propellant charge firing a bullet three times the weight.

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
--

[we]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

A related question....
What about the silenced Sten?
Did they make special lower charged amo for that? What were the
specifications of this amo? Weight of bullet?
And how was the Sten technical changed to make it more silent? I do not mean
the silencer itself (although i would like to see an explosion view of it),
but the breech block etc.

Hans

--

[Nicholas Smid]

Post by we

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

A related question....
What about the silenced Sten?
Did they make special lower charged amo for that? What were the
specifications of this amo? Weight of bullet?
And how was the Sten technical changed to make it more silent? I do not mean
the silencer itself (although i would like to see an explosion view of it),
but the breech block etc.

The major change, aside from the scilencer which screwed on over the barrel
was the barrel itself was much shorter, 31/2 inches instead of 71/2, this
was enough to keep the bullet sub sonic. The book I checked says it was very
effective and you could hardly hear the muzzel blast from more than a few
yards away. I'm less sure about how far away you had to be not to hear a
couple of pounds of steel crashing off other bits of steel but it seems to
have worked fairly well though the De Lisle carbine would be my choice for a
bit of quiet work.

[ian maclure]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

Because it was intended, inter alia, for use on the Continent
by various irregular military forces. And guess what calibre
of ammo was common in those parts....
Yaes, that's right, 9mm Parabellum.

IBM

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[R ESTEY]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

The 9MM Parabelleum or 9 x 19mm was (and still is) a common pistol caliber
in many European armies and police forces. British forces had captured
large amounts of 9mm ammo (along with many Berretta M38 submachine guns)from
the Italians in the Libyan desert campaign . The 45 ACP was the standard
American pistol/submachine gun caliber - it was not manufactured in Britain (at
least in any quanity) - to make the round would have required setting up a
production facility using imported American tooling. The 9mm being European
there would have been tooling and people familiar with it closer at hand. The
Brits also adopted the 9mm Browning High Power handgun as a standard later in
the war - if only for elite forces such as paratroops/commando types. The .38
or in British terms .380 revolver was not the same as the common .38 special,
but was based on the earlier .38 Smith & Wesson round. The 38 S&W was shorter
with a slightly greater diameter than 38 special. It was also less powerful.
Revolver rounds are rimmed - there is a flange on the base of the case. The
flange or rim is needed for the round to chamber - the case rim seats on the
extractor which prevents it from riding forward. Rimmed cases are a problem
in automatic weapons as the case rims often get tangled up causing feeding
problems and jams. The 9mm is rimless (as are other automatic pistol rounds)
As for other calibers the 9mm parabelleum has the correct mixture of power
and round size - the Russians used the 7.62 x 25 (Mauser pistol) round which
was smaller, lighter and had a higher velocity than 9mm. It lacked the
knockdown capability of the 9mm or the 45. Other common rounds 7.65 mm
(7.65 x 17mm or 32 ACP ) lacked power, even though the Germans and many other
countries used small "pocket" pistols like the Walther PP/PPK, Mauser HSC
and others as issue weapons for rear area troops, aircrew and staff officers.
The Italians used the 9mm short (Corto, 9mm x 17mm, 380 auto) - again lacking
in power compared to the 9mm Parabelleum. Italian officers used the excellent
Berretta 1934 in this caliber - if somewhat underpowered.

[Ralph DuBose]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

May have been partly a matter of an instinct for good design.
Consider that the vast majority of SMGs built since then have also
fired 9mm Parabellum rounds.
The US finally/recently retired their .45ACP service pistols and
replaced them with a 9mm. More controllable. Higher capacity.
--

[Osmo Ronkanen]

Post by Daniel Titley
Why was the British Sten SMG built to fire the 9mm Parabelum round
instead of Britain's standard .38 pistol round, or .45ACP, or any
other pistol calibre?

Sten was developed from the Lanchester which was a direct copy of the
Schmeisser (the real one, not MP-40) and Schmeisser used 9 mm ammo.
British did not have suitable native pistol round so there was no need
to modify the weapon. For similar reasons the Besa machine guns in
British tanks fired 7.92 mm rounds. At the time the 9 mm round
had gained international popularity in place of the 7.63-7.65 mm rounds
and was used in Finland in Suomi SMG as well as the Browning High
power or even in that respect it was a natural choice.

The .45 ACP was never very popular in Europe. AFAIK only Norway
adopted it. For SMG use it also was heavy and had bad ballistics.

Osmo
--