Discussion:
German imposters
(too old to reply)
SolomonW
2014-08-16 16:45:00 UTC
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There have been several references both in US and Russian sources that
Germans used spies pretending to be such people as MPs and commissars who
spoke their local language well to mislead and misdirect allied troops.

Are these stories true?



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Bill
2014-08-16 18:34:05 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
There have been several references both in US and Russian sources that
Germans used spies pretending to be such people as MPs and commissars who
spoke their local language well to mislead and misdirect allied troops.
Are these stories true?
There's a single primary source written by a German who claims to have
taken part in these operations (Can't remember the name or the book
title, I read it over 40 years ago) which has had its accuracy and
authenticity questioned.

I think the main objection was the lack of any official records in
any of the German intelligence agency records and the general
vagueness about 'who did it'.
The Horny Goat
2014-08-19 01:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by SolomonW
There have been several references both in US and Russian sources that
Germans used spies pretending to be such people as MPs and commissars who
spoke their local language well to mislead and misdirect allied troops.
Are these stories true?
There's a single primary source written by a German who claims to have
taken part in these operations (Can't remember the name or the book
title, I read it over 40 years ago) which has had its accuracy and
authenticity questioned.
I think the main objection was the lack of any official records in
any of the German intelligence agency records and the general
vagueness about 'who did it'.
Not to mention that any such person caught in such disguise would be
immediately shot as a spy - which wouldn't specifically be true since
intelligence collection was not the goal but saboteurs are usually
executed summarily as well.
WJHopwood
2014-08-30 16:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Long Lines
There have been several references in US and
Russian sources....that Germans used spies
pretending to be.... MPs and commissars who
spoke (the) local language...to mislead and
misdirect allied troops.
any such person caught....would be immediately
shot as a spy ....saboteurs are usually executed
summarily as well.
True. A somewhat similar incident occurred in the
U.S. in 1942. The activities of spies and saboteurs
often overlapped. Some such persons could be
both.
In June of 1942, eight German spy/saboteurs
in two groups of four each were put ashore by two
submarines, one in New York and one in Florida,
The twin landings were part of a single German effort
known as "Operation Pastorious"
One group of four landed from submarine
U-202 in a small rubber raft off Amagansett, Long I
Island, N.Y, on the night of June 13, 1942. Four
nights later, the other group were similarly off-loaded
from submarine U-584 at Ponta Vedra, Florida, a small
vacation resort south of Jacksonville.
One man in each group was a U.S. citizen by
naturalization. All had spent some time as residents in
the U.S. and were chosen for their familiarity with the
U.S. language, culture, and geographic layout. All had
been members of or were sympathetic with the objectives
of the German American Bund, loyal to the Fatherland,
and had returned to Germany before the war. They were
thus ideal for German Intelligence which recruited and
trained them at the Quentz Lake sabotage school outside
of Berlin.
The two groups had been furnished with a list
of resident German-American agents of the Nazis in the
U.S. They had also been given a list of numerous target
facilities in the U.S. which, if destroyed or damaged could
have harmed the American war effort,
Both groups landed successfully and managed
to elude detection. They were both able to work their way
inland toward their objectives when one of the group got
cold feet and alerted the FBI. He also helped the FBI to
locate and round up the others. All were in custody within
two weeks of the landings.
There is much more interesting detail about
"Operation Pastorious" but to sum up, FDR issued an
Executive Order authorizing their trial by military court.
The Executive Order was challenged before the Supreme
Court as "unconsitutional" by defense lawyers but in a
unanimous decision the High Court ruled that the military
court was legal, the decision, delivered by Chief Justice
Harlan Stone saying in part that ""....such enemies became
unlawful belligerents..."
The military court started on July 8, 1942 only 11
days after all of the "Pastorious Eight" had been rounded
up by the FBI. The trial took only 27 days and ended on
August 4, 1942. All 8 saboteurs were found guilty. Six
were executed by electric chair, one received life
imprisonment and one received a 30 year sentence.
Three years after the war was over, the two who
were not executed were both deported to Germany.

WJH.
John Dallman
2014-08-16 18:35:22 UTC
Permalink
... Germans used spies pretending to be such people as MPs and
commissars who spoke their local language well to mislead and
misdirect allied troops.
Well, Operation Greif was rather like that, and did happen, fairly
unsuccessfully: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Greif

John
David Wilma
2014-09-02 21:13:18 UTC
Permalink
I recall reading an account of a German provocation along the Polish
border in the last days of August 1939. IIRC Germans disguised as
Polish soldiers attached a post inside Germany and killed someone
and left behind one "Polish" KIA. Sorry, I have no reference to cite.
Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
2014-09-03 04:23:09 UTC
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Post by David Wilma
I recall reading an account of a German provocation along the Polish
border in the last days of August 1939. IIRC Germans disguised as
Polish soldiers attached a post inside Germany and killed someone
and left behind one "Polish" KIA. Sorry, I have no reference to cite.
In fact they staged three "provocations"
Don Phillipson
2014-09-22 15:21:35 UTC
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Post by David Wilma
I recall reading an account of a German provocation along the Polish
border in the last days of August 1939. IIRC Germans disguised as
Polish soldiers attached a post inside Germany and killed someone
and left behind one "Polish" KIA. Sorry, I have no reference to cite.
Done by Walter Schellenberg (SD) who provided a narrative to his
postwar interrogators and wrote memoirs after his release from
prison. (1) He faked a Polish incursion into German territory in Sept.
1939 as the nominal pretext for the German invasion of Poland.
(2) In Dec. 1939 Schellenberg organized the Venlo incident, available
if needed later as a Dutch "provocation" against Germany.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Rich Rostrom
2014-09-22 18:07:53 UTC
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Post by Don Phillipson
(2) In Dec. 1939 Schellenberg organized the Venlo incident, available
if needed later as a Dutch "provocation" against Germany.
The Venlo incident was an actual blow at British
intelligence; ISTM that any thought of a
propaganda use was an afterthought to the
capture of two British agents. I never heard
of such a plan; and it seems very hard to
exploit as a pretended _casus belli_.

The presence of two British agents in the
Netherlands, not doing anything in
particular, would hardly constitute an act
of war by the Netherlands. The incursion
was by Germans into the Netherlands.
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David Wilma
2014-09-02 21:19:59 UTC
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This is purely anecdotal, but I give it credence. Fifty years ago I had
dinner with Leah, the mother of my sister's best friend. The mother was
Polish and as a teenager lived in eastern Poland when it was occupied by
the Soviets. She and her mother were transported to a collective farm
in the Soviet Union where they worked very hard with very poor food.

One morning Leah was out doing chores when she encountered a
stranger. She greeted him in Russian, but he replied in German with
a question: how to get to a nearby landmark? She had studied German
in school and gave him what information she could. He disappeared.

A few weeks later the area was occupied by the Germans and Leah
undertook to walk back to Poland. She was picked up there and was
sent to Germany to work in factories until Liberation.
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