Targeting of Polish Intelligentsia

[dumbstruck]

Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists? I hear that
for quite a while the number of catholic non combatants killed
exceeded the number of jews, although this may include catholic POW's.

Anyway this sounds like a Pol Pot kind of thing, and unlike the
targeting of Jews it wasn't just out of spite but trying to accomplish
a goal, like making resistance a lot less effective. Do you think the
Nazi's benefited from this strategy at all? We all know the brave
Polish resistance that followed, but their attrition was horrendous.

Without this decapitation of prominent leaders could Polish resistance
have been much more effective, or more realistic in waiting to fight
another day? Well, I realize the nazi's had a long term goal of making
Poland more pliable as a permanent colony... did it make things easier
for the Russian domination (pre Lech Walesa)? It's one thing having a
rebellious spirit, but another in being effective.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by dumbstruck
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists?

By the Nazis? Because a lot of Polish intelligentsia
were murdered by the Soviets, too.

However - Poland was "unique" in being the only
Slavic nation "conquered" by Germany.

Yugoslavia was divided with Italy and the Croatian
Ustashe. And Hitler was not interested in Yugoslav
territory except for "Upper Styria" (parts of
Slovenia).

Bulgaria and Slovakia were Axis satellites.

In the USSR... I think any "intelligentsia"
would have been Communists - not necessarily
commissars, but Party members.

Any Ukrainians or Belarussians probably would
have declared nationalist feelings and initially
been viewed as allies against the Reds.

[Roman W]

Post by dumbstruck
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed

It didn't have "a whole class" executed.

Post by dumbstruck
Poland more pliable as a permanent colony... did it make things easier
for the Russian domination (pre Lech Walesa)?

Things weren't so easy for the Russians before 1980 as well.

RW

[dumbstruck]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 20:22:21 -0400, dumbstruck

Post by dumbstruck
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed

It didn't have "a whole class" executed.

Of course I meant a whole class "targeted" for execution. I forget what
percentage success was claimed for the Nazis in the "Bloodlands..." book
or in a lecture by that prominent ww2 historian who has a Polish wife. I
do recall Hitler being quite specific about "removing" if not executing all
but the manual worker underclass of the east in his Tabletalk book quotes.
More explicit than his plans for jews, which looms larger in accounts now.

That seems a major escalation beyond just the typical offing of natural
opponents... almost to create another rootless slave class. I seem to
recall that Nazis sometimes used the presence of eye glasses to justify
a death sentence there, just like what was later done in Cambodia (with
coaching by French communists... maybe inspired by the fascist example).

Post by dumbstruck
Poland more pliable as a permanent colony... did it make things easier
for the Russian domination (pre Lech Walesa)?

Things weren't so easy for the Russians before 1980 as well.

So nothing like the gutting of Khmer culture, but probably some effect.

[Bob Martin]

Post by dumbstruck
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists? I hear that
for quite a while the number of catholic non combatants killed
exceeded the number of jews, although this may include catholic POW's.
Anyway this sounds like a Pol Pot kind of thing, and unlike the
targeting of Jews it wasn't just out of spite but trying to accomplish
a goal, like making resistance a lot less effective. Do you think the
Nazi's benefited from this strategy at all? We all know the brave
Polish resistance that followed, but their attrition was horrendous.
Without this decapitation of prominent leaders could Polish resistance
have been much more effective, or more realistic in waiting to fight
another day? Well, I realize the nazi's had a long term goal of making
Poland more pliable as a permanent colony... did it make things easier
for the Russian domination (pre Lech Walesa)? It's one thing having a
rebellious spirit, but another in being effective.

Why do you put an apostrophe in "nazi's" but not in "Jews"?
Just kidding.

[Roman W]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 10:33:00 -0400, Bob Martin

Post by Bob Martin
Why do you put an apostrophe in "nazi's" but not in "Jews"?
Just kidding.

Nazis don't deserve proper spelling.

RW

[Mario]

Post by dumbstruck
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals
and cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists?

Gallia, a few centuries before...

[Padraigh ProAmerica]

Targeting of Polish Intelligentsia

Group: soc.history.war.world-war-ii Date: Sat, May 25, 2013, 8:22pm
From: ***@gmail.com (dumbstruck)
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists? I hear that for
quite a while the number of catholic non combatants killed exceeded the
number of jews, although this may include catholic POW's.
Anyway this sounds like a Pol Pot kind of thing, and unlike the
targeting of Jews it wasn't just out of spite but trying to accomplish a
goal, like making resistance a lot less effective. Do you think the
Nazi's benefited from this strategy at all? We all know the brave Polish
resistance that followed, but their attrition was horrendous.
Without this decapitation of prominent leaders could Polish resistance
have been much more effective, or more realistic in waiting to fight
another day? Well, I realize the nazi's had a long term goal of making
Poland more pliable as a permanent colony... did it make things easier
for the Russian domination (pre Lech Walesa)? It's one thing having a
rebellious spirit, but another in being effective.

================

You seem to be running a couple of facts together.

The Nazis went after the Jews in particular.

It was the Soviets who massacred the Polish upper class (Katyn Forest)>
The idea was to prevent a cohesive non-Communist resistance; if they
could oppose the Germans they could resist the Soviets when they took
over.

--
"Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff."--

Frank Zappa--

[Bill Shatzer]

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
Targeting of Polish Intelligentsia
Group: soc.history.war.world-war-ii Date: Sat, May 25, 2013, 8:22pm
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists? I hear that for
quite a while the number of catholic non combatants killed exceeded the
number of jews, although this may include catholic POW's.
Anyway this sounds like a Pol Pot kind of thing, and unlike the
targeting of Jews it wasn't just out of spite but trying to accomplish a
goal, like making resistance a lot less effective. Do you think the
Nazi's benefited from this strategy at all? We all know the brave Polish
resistance that followed, but their attrition was horrendous.
Without this decapitation of prominent leaders could Polish resistance
have been much more effective, or more realistic in waiting to fight
another day? Well, I realize the nazi's had a long term goal of making
Poland more pliable as a permanent colony... did it make things easier
for the Russian domination (pre Lech Walesa)? It's one thing having a
rebellious spirit, but another in being effective.
You seem to be running a couple of facts together.
The Nazis went after the Jews in particular.
It was the Soviets who massacred the Polish upper class (Katyn Forest)>
The idea was to prevent a cohesive non-Communist resistance; if they
could oppose the Germans they could resist the Soviets when they took
over.

The Nazis were equally (if not more) ruthless in the extermination of
the Polish intelligentsia - I'd suggest you set your Google pointer to
AB-Aktion or Intelligenzaktion.

By all accounts, the Nazis murdered some 60-70,000 Polish elites -
teachers, nobles, politicians, religious leaders, writers, journalists,
etc., and thousands more were arrsted and perished in the various
concentration camps. This was over and above the approximately 3 million
Polish Jews exterminated without reguard to their social, economic,
political, or intellectual status.

[Roman W]

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
It was the Soviets who massacred the Polish upper class (Katyn

Forest)>

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
The idea was to prevent a cohesive non-Communist resistance; if they
could oppose the Germans they could resist the Soviets when they took
over.

1. Germans killed Polish elites as well (e.g. Sachsenhausen camp when
the Jagiellonian University professors were held).
2. Not just upper class people were killed in Katy<UTF16-0144>.

RW

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by dumbstruck
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists? I hear that
for quite a while the number of catholic non combatants killed
exceeded the number of jews, although this may include catholic POW's.

Well, to point out the obvious, the population of Poland was about
62% Roman catholic, 10% Greek catholic, 10% Orthodox, vs 10% jewish, so
it's not really surprising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Poland#Second_Polish_Republic_.281918.E2.80.931939.29

Mike

[dumbstruck]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by dumbstruck
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists? I hear that
for quite a while the number of catholic non combatants killed
exceeded the number of jews, although this may include catholic POW's.

Well, to point out the obvious, the population of Poland was about
62% Roman catholic, 10% Greek catholic, 10% Orthodox, vs 10% jewish, so
it's not really surprising.

It's not as if we are talking about random killings that would be influenced
by the proportions on the ground. Well, the Bloodlands author did include
starved POWs and collateral civilians. But the surprising thing is those
Polish civilians targeted for executions because of "who they are" instead
of something they did... are not at first overwhelmingly Jewish.

Goebbels 1939 diaries are just seething against the Polish "aristocrats" who
are allegedly the single source of Polish resistance, such as organizers of
partisans. Although he is involved in making anti-jew documentaries there at
the time, he almost seems more focused on the need to forever erase Polish
culture (theater, etc) which implies to me intelligentsia beyond just
aristocrats. He talks as if there is a nazi consensus to only preserve those
Polish who are like a herd of ignorant animals that German overseers can work.

His diaries post 1938 are very fascinating... more frank than the earlier
ones which were immediately published as a cheerleading book. He may be less
a center of power in the war years, but is in the loop for all newsworthy
events which he has to spin. He even brags about ordering distorted stories
put out and having maybe-not-guilty people arrested as examples. He publicly comforts wounded troops, and confides angry revenge by the top nazis. At
least as of 1939 he depicts French behavior as being harmlessly timid and the
British as dangerously cunning... more than they expected.

[dumbstruck]

Post by dumbstruck
Goebbels 1939 diaries are just seething against the Polish "aristocrats" who
are allegedly the single source of Polish resistance, such as organizers of
partisans. Although he is involved in making anti-jew documentaries there at
the time, he almost seems more focused on the need to forever erase Polish
culture (theater, etc) which implies to me intelligentsia beyond just
aristocrats. He talks as if there is a nazi consensus to only preserve those
Polish who are like a herd of ignorant animals that German overseers can work.

If I had just read a few last entries from Oct 1939, the "poison dwarf"
explicitly says the Polish intelligentsia is almost eliminated (present tense)
and that Polish jewry must be eliminated (future tense). I'm not using the
exact words, and I think you would have to read it in german to discriminate
whether he is admitting to killings vs removals, but wow these diaries are eye
opening. I get the sense that their content isn't widely known, probably because they can be so lengthy. Some yet to be translated?

[dumbstruck]

Not only were intelligentsia targeted, but prevention measures
were planned to cap their reappearance. Hans Frank, the German
administrator for Poland forecast one month after the invasion:

..."closing of all educational institutions, especially technical
schools and colleges in order to prevent the growth of the new Polish
intelligentsia. Poland shall be treated as a colony; the Poles shall
be the slaves of the Greater German World Empire."

This is from http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Frank1.html
which separately depicts a targeting of Polish Jews. By targeting I
refer to annihilation, and the surprising thing is how it appeared to
apply substantially to non jews then as well.

In the Goebbels diaries, it appears they dabbled in similar policies for
Slovenia and maybe Serbia. I guess some wanted to apply it to western
Russia, although I am just running across entries where Goebbels demands
better treatment for Russian deserters (vs POWs which can die) and
Ukrainians so as to encourage changing sides. Other locations did not
inspire such targeting, although he vaguely talks about some very harsh
medicine planned for France post ww2 to pay for WW1 sins.

P.S. Is Goebbels 1944 diary available in english anywhere? I assume the
Russians have it in microfilm, but possibly not translated. The available
books omit 1944 and some key months elsewhere. No easy task to translate
because he wrote scores of pages every day for about 20 years. Really
interesting to hear his and colleagues perception of war progress / regress.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by dumbstruck
Wasn't Poland unique in having a whole class of intellectuals and
cultural leaders executed, not just jews or communists?

The other unique point was that after conquest the Third Reich
abolished Poland, viz. disbanded its government, public services
and national institutions. This was not done in other conquered
or occupied states (e.g. Netherlands, Slovakia, Norway etc.)

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Don Phillipson
The other unique point was that after conquest the Third Reich
abolished Poland, viz. disbanded its government, public services
and national institutions. This was not done in other conquered
or occupied states (e.g. Netherlands, Slovakia, Norway etc.)

Slovakia was a satellite state until the attempted
defection and military rebellion in August 1944.

What was the situation after the rebellion was
suppressed? (A period of only a few months before
the area was occupied by Soviet troops.)

Also, did the Germans preserve any of the state
institutions in occupied Soviet territory?
I would doubt it.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Don Phillipson
The other unique point was that after conquest the Third Reich
abolished Poland, viz. disbanded its government, public services
and national institutions. This was not done in other conquered
or occupied states (e.g. Netherlands, Slovakia, Norway etc.)

, , , did the Germans preserve any of the state
institutions in occupied Soviet territory?
I would doubt it.

No, the post concerned "conquered or occupied states:" and
the Third Reich did not conquer or occupy the USSR the way
it did Netherlands, Slovakia, Norway, Estonia, etc. Notoriously
a few liberal Nazis sought to promote a separate Ukrainian
satellite state, believing Ukrainians were so anti-Russian they
would become willing collaborators, but Hitler decided
(unilaterally?) to treat all USSR populations uniformly and suppress
or starve the lot.

(The three Baltic States are an interesting group, so far as
they were Russified under the first occupation and
reprogrammed again under Nazi occupation -- or so says
my Estonian chum who fled aged 5 in 1945.)