Discussion:
WI: clear weather in early June 1944
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Rich Rostrom
2015-05-06 14:39:16 UTC
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The Allied invasion of Normandy benefited from the
weather events of early June. The invasion was
initially scheduled for June 5, but was postponed
because of rough weather, which developed on June 4.

Fortunately, Allied meteorologists forecast
(correctly) that the rough weather would clear up
by June 6, and that there would be several days
of clear weather for the invasion and immediate
follow-up.

This had a serendipitous benefit to the Allies,
because the Germans thought that the bad weather
would prevent any invasion for at least a few
days. Rommel went home to Germany for his wife's
birthday; air and sea patrols in the Channel
were cancelled for the night of June 5-6.

Thus the invasion fleet assembled and sailed to
the French coast without being seen. The Germans
first became aware of the invasion when the ships
came in sight of the coast of Normandy.

There's a famous scene in _The Longest Day_, when
Major Pluskat of the German 352nd Division looks
out from his bunker as the morning fog blows away,
revealing the immense Allied armada, which opens
fire only minutes later.

My question is this: what if the weather had been
clear on June 4 and June 5? There seem to be three
obvious implications.

The invasion would have gone ahead on June 5, and
Rommel would not have gone on leave; these seems
minor.

Perhaps more important is that the Germans would
have sent out their regular patrols on the night
before the invasion.

Could these patrols have detected the invasion?
Or would Allied escorts have prevented them?

How would the reports from these patrols have been
received by German HQs - 7th Army, Army Group B,
OB West, OKW?

If the German HQs had received such warning of the
invasion, several hours earlier, would they have been
able to react in any effective way?

I doubt that such earlier warning would have affected
the overall outcome, but it could have affected the
course of the battle, on D-Day and afterward.

This also raises a question about the other major
opposed landings in Europe: HUSKY, AVALANCHE,
SHINGLE, and DRAGOON: which of _these_ invasions
could the Germans have detected in advance, and did
they in fact detect any of them in advance?

It should be noted that the Germans (and Italians,
for HUSKY) did not have very long to prepare against
HUSKY, AVALANCHE, or SHINGLE, and did not make the
defensive effort against DRAGOON that was made on
the Channel. Thus the Axis may not have resources
available to respond to warnings of these landings.
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John Dallman
2015-05-06 16:05:07 UTC
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Post by Rich Rostrom
If the German HQs had received such warning of the
invasion, several hours earlier, would they have been
able to react in any effective way?
I doubt that such earlier warning would have affected
the overall outcome, but it could have affected the
course of the battle, on D-Day and afterward.
The thing that could have made a difference would have been if OKW
concluded an invasion was underway early enough to allow the movement of
the Panzer reserves under cover of darkness.

Warlimont is the nearest thing to an eyewitness I know of, and he reckons
that Jodl was not convinced by 06:00, when it was known there had been
major air landings, but nobody on the beaches yet. Jodl took this
decision himself, without awakening Hitler. Given that, it seems fairly
unlikely that he'd have been convinced by scouting reports.

Jodl's decision was that CinC West should try to drive off the attack
with his own forces. Warlimont, who disagrees with Jodl a lot in
retrospect, reckons this was the sensible decision at the time: using
your last reserves on something that could be a diversion (most of the
German command structure was expecting the real attack in the Straits of
Dover, in accordance with the Operation Fortitude deception plan).

The Germans also knew that the French Resistance had been given their
48-hour warning by radio; the Abwehr had learned that code phrase in
January 1944, but most commands took no notice when informed that signal
had been sent.

John
Rich
2015-05-06 17:25:23 UTC
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Post by Rich Rostrom
The Allied invasion of Normandy benefited from the
weather events of early June. The invasion was
initially scheduled for June 5, but was postponed
because of rough weather, which developed on June 4.
It is interesting to note that the commonly accepted view of these
events appears to be quite wrong. The Allied MET forecast was
actually wrong, but Eisenhower made the right decision, while the
German weather forecast was actually right, but Rommel made the
wrong decision. :)

http://www.rmets.org/sites/rmets.org/files/presentations/17042014-persson.pdf

In any case, there were very few German patrol vessels available in the
Channel where needed. One DD, 4 TB, 5 R Boats, 1 MS, 15 MFP, 22 M/S
Trawlers, and 28 patrol craft were it.
SolomonW
2015-05-07 14:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
It is interesting to note that the commonly accepted view of these
events appears to be quite wrong. The Allied MET forecast was
actually wrong, but Eisenhower made the right decision, while the
German weather forecast was actually right, but Rommel made the
wrong decision. :)
http://www.rmets.org/sites/rmets.org/files/presentations/17042014-persson.pdf
Fasinating report, not all I confess I understand but it appears that this
page has some conflicts with this page.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/archive/national-meteorological-archive-hidden-treasures-d-day-operation-overlord

There are some other useful links on this page too.

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Rich
2015-05-07 15:20:22 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Fasinating report, not all I confess I understand but it appears that this
page has some conflicts with this page.
(snip)
Post by SolomonW
There are some other useful links on this page too.
Yes, it seems that no two weatherman can ever agree on anything to
do with the weather. :)
David Wilma
2015-05-06 23:34:41 UTC
Permalink
The marginal weather had an impact on amphibious
operations especially the DD tanks at Omaha. The absence
of those tanks were an important factor in the fight there.
But the Americans punched through Rommel's Atlantic
Wall.

The big issue was the non-deployment of the German armored
reserves which was not related to the weather.

The great thing about alternative history is that you are
always right.
Rich
2015-05-07 14:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wilma
The marginal weather had an impact on amphibious
operations especially the DD tanks at Omaha. The absence
of those tanks were an important factor in the fight there.
But the Americans punched through Rommel's Atlantic
Wall.
David,

The weather had an effect on all the operations, but the loss of the
29 DD tanks of the 741st Tank Battalion cannot be directly attributed
just to the weather. If that was the case, then all the DD launched
should have had a similar fate. They did not. For the 741st, it was
more there attempt to land at the right place that was responsible.

In any case, even with a few as three tanks operational, the 16th
Infantry still "punched through".
Post by David Wilma
The big issue was the non-deployment of the German armored
reserves which was not related to the weather.
They did deploy. They just didn't deploy in time. :)
William Clodius
2015-05-08 16:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wilma
The marginal weather had an impact on amphibious
operations especially the DD tanks at Omaha. The absence
of those tanks were an important factor in the fight there.
But the Americans punched through Rommel's Atlantic
Wall.
The big issue was the non-deployment of the German armored
reserves which was not related to the weather.
The great thing about alternative history is that you are
always right.
'However the the deployment of the mobile reserve, Kampfgruppe Meyer,
was indirectly affected by the weather. If the airdrops of the 101s
Airborne had been more accurate, the the reserve might not have been
sent on its wild goose chase. If he final dployment decision of one
batallion to Omaha Beach and two to Gold, had been made at 5 AM when the
general goals of the invasion were first obvious, the climbs up to the
top of the Omaha bluffs might have met more serious opposition.

Bob Martin
2015-05-07 14:42:16 UTC
Permalink
in 254386 20150506 153916 Rich Rostrom <***@comcast.net> wrote:

If reports are true that staff were afraid to disturb Hitler's sleep then it
wouldn't have mattered when the invasion fleet was detected.
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