German Memoirs

[dumbstruck]

I'm reading an interesting book by a mid-level "Panzer Commander", I will
pass along some of his impressions from various fronts that surprised me,
and maybe you can recommend other such memoirs. I had read the Stuka memoirs
and maybe something by a u-boat commander, Incidentally this author (Hans
von Luck) pointed out how early in the war the army could have it easy
just idling in some comfy town, while the air force and navy was constantly
in grinding combat.

I remember a US correspondent retracing the invasion of France being shocked
to find almost no signs of defensive combat. Luck points out that they
simply ignored French forces unless they were directly in the way of an
objective. The French would shoot from the sides, but Rommel told them
to simply drive faster and let the infantry later mop up.

Luck captures villages on the north and west coast of France, usually
under affable conditions. From his "von" you can guess he is an old style
aristocrat that treated opponents with some honor, but was followed up by
party thug occupiers that made the villages regret their easy giving up.
In Russia, the villages at first saw him as a Christian liberator over
atheism, and immediately reopened churches and services until the thugs
came. In Africa, Bedouins welcomed them as supposed Jew killers vs the
colonial British (to his embarrassment).

Luck's uniform problems come in Africa, not Russia. In Russia, the
German people sent enough warm civilian clothes... the problem being
it was mostly pilfered before reaching the front line troops. There were
no rules about distributing non-standard clothes, so the troops in the
comfy rear just grabbed what they wanted and passed on the junk. For
Africa, the tropical uniform was hot, tight, and didn't breathe. So
they had to find Italian uniforms (maybe caused some confusion to allies?).

Luck is pretty lucky or smart. He retreats from Russia (in his Mercedes)
alongside AA guns, while the rest of the column is mauled by strafing.
When a Russian raises a rifle to shoot him, he is holding a machine
pistol which he can instantly tilt up and spray first... maybe not so
good results if he depended on a pistol or carbine. I will end with the
magic keywords that prevent my posts from being automatically rejected
due to inadvertent length problems... long lines

[Bill]

Post by dumbstruck
Luck's uniform problems come in Africa, not Russia. In Russia, the
German people sent enough warm civilian clothes... the problem being
it was mostly pilfered before reaching the front line troops. There were
no rules about distributing non-standard clothes, so the troops in the
comfy rear just grabbed what they wanted and passed on the junk. For
Africa, the tropical uniform was hot, tight, and didn't breathe. So
they had to find Italian uniforms (maybe caused some confusion to allies?).

Everyone wore all sorts of stuff in the Western Desert.

It is said that the best equipped soldiers wore Italian shirts, German
trousers and British desert boots.

Both sides used an interchangeable set of vehicles and because of the
frequent advances and retreats both sides had a large selection of the
other lot's transport and equipment that had been captured.

London used to send messages to generals about how their soldiers
looked .

There's a famous story about General Alexander reading out one such
telegram to an assembly of his soldiers while wearing an Italian
shirt, German trousers and, as it was a cool morning, a sheepskin
flying jacket with the sleeves cut off...

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Bill
Everyone wore all sorts of stuff in the Western Desert.
There's a famous story about General Alexander... wearing an Italian
shirt, German trousers and... a sheepskin flying jacket...

Major Vladimir "Popski" Peniakoff wrote of walking
through Axis-occupied Derna in British uniform
(more or less). No one noticed anything unusual
about his worn, sun-faded clothing.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by dumbstruck
In Africa, Bedouins welcomed them as supposed Jew killers vs the
colonial British (to his embarrassment).

Where in Africa? In eastern Libya, the Arabs were
Senussis who hated the Italians and by extension
their German allies.

Major Vladimir "Popski" Peniakoff spent several
months behind Axis lines in Libya, aiding
escaped POWs, reporting on Axis movements,
blowing up a gasoline dump, etc., all with the
aid of lots of Senussis. There were essentially
no leaks to the Axis.

The only place Luck could have encountered anti-
British Bedouins would be Egypt, between Gazala
and Second Alamein.

And it seems odd that they would even care;
there was no British presence in western
Egypt before the war.

[dumbstruck]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by dumbstruck
In Africa, Bedouins welcomed them as supposed Jew killers vs the
colonial British (to his embarrassment).

Where in Africa? In eastern Libya, the Arabs were
Senussis who hated the Italians and by extension
their German allies.

They reported Germans were welcome because unlike the Italian colonialists,
they would eventually leave. Also they liked Hitler's views on Jews. This
was from one family that Hans was apologizing to about minefields, etc.
and that is why I reported it as his impressions rather than general facts.

I heard there was a near holocaust of Jews in north Africa immediately after
the war, but the holocaust museums refuse to publicize this due to political
sensitivities.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by dumbstruck
I heard there was a near holocaust of Jews in north Africa immediately after
the war, but the holocaust museums refuse to publicize this due to political
sensitivities.

More detail is required. After 1948 (establishment of Israel and its
successful
defence from the first invasions, self-governing Moslem countries (e.g.
Morocco
and Tunisia) made life difficult for their (long-resident) Jewish
communities.
seeking to induce them to emigrate elsewhere. This was generally
successful,
i.e. most North African Jews left (for Europe or N.America if not
necessarily
Israel.) Wikipedia tells us "Morocco's Jewish minority (265,000 in 1948)
has
decreased significantly and numbers about 5,500." This was indeed because of
persecution or ethnic cleansing, but because deaths were few this is not
usually
called "a holocaust."

[dumbstruck]

Post by Don Phillipson
More detail is required. After 1948 (establishment of Israel and its

All I can find is claims of thousands of Jews executed in wartime north
Africa http://unitedwithisrael.org/the-terrors-of-the-holocaust-in-north-africa/
and something about el-alamein thwarting a newly arrived SS murder squad
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2013/August/Historian-WWII-Battle-Averted-Mideast-Holocaust/

Maybe my hearsay was rejected by the holocaust museums because it was wrong.
I dunno if the Mufti of Jerusalem was able to put his bad wishes into action.

[Bill]

Post by dumbstruck

Post by Don Phillipson
More detail is required. After 1948 (establishment of Israel and its

All I can find is claims of thousands of Jews executed in wartime north
Africa http://unitedwithisrael.org/the-terrors-of-the-holocaust-in-north-africa/
and something about el-alamein thwarting a newly arrived SS murder squad
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2013/August/Historian-WWII-Battle-Averted-Mideast-Holocaust/
Maybe my hearsay was rejected by the holocaust museums because it was wrong.
I dunno if the Mufti of Jerusalem was able to put his bad wishes into action.

You want to be really careful about that book.

Famously the SS never deployed to North Africa.

It was the only theatre the Germans fought in that had no SS
involvement.

[Mario]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by dumbstruck
I heard there was a near holocaust of Jews in north Africa
immediately after
the war, but the holocaust museums refuse to publicize this
due to political
sensitivities.

More detail is required. After 1948 (establishment of Israel
and its successful
defence from the first invasions, self-governing Moslem
countries (e.g. Morocco
and Tunisia) made life difficult for their (long-resident)
Jewish communities.
seeking to induce them to emigrate elsewhere. This was
generally successful,
i.e. most North African Jews left (for Europe or N.America if
not necessarily
Israel.) Wikipedia tells us "Morocco's Jewish minority
(265,000 in 1948) has
decreased significantly and numbers about 5,500." This was
indeed because of persecution or ethnic cleansing, but because
deaths were few this is not usually
called "a holocaust."

FWIK most Northafrican Jews left after the 1967 war.

Also many Italians were forced to leave Libya only after Gadhafi
took power in place of king Idriss, who was as tolerant with
Italians in Libya as Emperor Haile Selassie was in Ethiopia.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Mario
FWIK most Northafrican Jews left after the 1967 war.
Also many Italians were forced to leave Libya only after Gadhafi
took power in place of king Idriss, who was as tolerant with
Italians in Libya as Emperor Haile Selassie was in Ethiopia.

Local politics seems to have underlain most of the expulsions and
persecutions of Jews in Arab-majority countries (rather than global
ideologies, religious or secular.) A memoir in the Nov. 30 Toronto
National Post reminds us Jews lived in Baghdad for 2,500 years
(continuously since the Babylonian captivity) so that by 1939 Baghdad 's
may have been the largest Jewish community in the world (150,000
in a city of less than half a million.) "Only 3,000 or so remained by
the mid-1960s" and the Jewish population of Baghdad is today
supposed to be five or 10.

[Alan Meyer]

On 11/24/2013 06:13 PM, Mario wrote:

...

Post by Mario
Also many Italians were forced to leave Libya only after Gadhafi
took power in place of king Idriss, who was as tolerant with
Italians in Libya as Emperor Haile Selassie was in Ethiopia.

I recommend the novel _Black Mamba Boy_ by Nadifa Mohamed for its
account of Italian behavior in Somalia in the years leading up to the war.

The novel is said to be a fictionalized account of the life of the
author's father. If it's accurate, and I have no knowledge one way or
the other if it is, the Italian occupiers were roundly hated by the
local Somali and Ethiopian people for their selfishness and brutality.

In my visits to Italy, conducted 50-60 years after the events in the
novel, I found the Italian people to be exceptionally friendly and
helpful. But I think that colonialism attracts the more rapacious
individuals among the colonizers and breeds callousness among them.

In my visits to England I found the English people to be very friendly,
decent folk and yet their reputation in India is the opposite. For that
matter, I've also been perfectly comfortable in modern Germany.

Finally, my own country, the U.S., has seemed to me a relatively
friendly and hospitable place. And yet I know many stories about the
behavior of Americans in Vietnam of which I am ashamed as an American.

War, occupation, colonialism, imperialism - these bring out the worst in
the dominant people.

Alan

[Mario]

Post by Alan Meyer
...

Post by Mario
Also many Italians were forced to leave Libya only after
Gadhafi took power in place of king Idriss, who was as
tolerant with Italians in Libya as Emperor Haile Selassie was
in Ethiopia.

I recommend the novel _Black Mamba Boy_ by Nadifa Mohamed for
its account of Italian behavior in Somalia in the years
leading up to the war.
The novel is said to be a fictionalized account of the life of
the
author's father. If it's accurate, and I have no knowledge
one way or the other if it is, the Italian occupiers were
roundly hated by the local Somali and Ethiopian people for
their selfishness and brutality.

Yes, Italian colonialism wasn't soft.

There were cases of horrible crimes.

Still, after the war Emperor Haile Selassie didn't expel
Italians. Also king Idriss kept most of them in Libya.

Somalia was administered by Italy for a decade or so, after the
war, under a UN mandate, before the independence.

Post by Alan Meyer
War, occupation, colonialism, imperialism - these bring out
the worst in the dominant people.

I've seen what happened in Yugoslavia. The scum of society got
the power.

[Bill]

Post by Alan Meyer
In my visits to England I found the English people to be very friendly,
decent folk and yet their reputation in India is the opposite.

Where on earth did you get that impression from?

My experience in India is exactly the opposite with the Indian people
welcoming me with open arms when they discovered I was English,
especially those few old enough to remember the empire...

Almost every urban based Indian I have met has family in the UK and
many have visited the UK.

[Duwop]

Post by Bill

Post by Alan Meyer
In my visits to England I found the English people to be very friendly,
decent folk and yet their reputation in India is the opposite.

Where on earth did you get that impression from?
My experience in India is exactly the opposite with the Indian people
welcoming me with open arms when they discovered I was English,
especially those few old enough to remember the empire...

I do not know their opinions of individual Englishmen or how they
characterize English personal traits, but the Indians I currently
work with, and have in the past, predominately have a
lingering animosity that varies in strength according to
the individual.
Some of it is still suprisingly strong considering this late date.
The others are indifferent, have not come across any
that are "pro English".
I don't make a bid deal when discussing this, that is to say, avoid
poisoning the well, merely try to get thoughts.
Though have engaged a few in deeper discussions of their history.
As one would expect, it's complex. As a rule, Sikhs seem to have
more hostile opinions, FWIW.

[Bill]

Post by Duwop

Post by Bill

Post by Alan Meyer
In my visits to England I found the English people to be very friendly,
decent folk and yet their reputation in India is the opposite.

Where on earth did you get that impression from?
My experience in India is exactly the opposite with the Indian people
welcoming me with open arms when they discovered I was English,
especially those few old enough to remember the empire...

I do not know their opinions of individual Englishmen or how they
characterize English personal traits, but the Indians I currently
work with, and have in the past, predominately have a
lingering animosity that varies in strength according to
the individual.
Some of it is still suprisingly strong considering this late date.
The others are indifferent, have not come across any
that are "pro English".
I don't make a bid deal when discussing this, that is to say, avoid
poisoning the well, merely try to get thoughts.
Though have engaged a few in deeper discussions of their history.
As one would expect, it's complex. As a rule, Sikhs seem to have
more hostile opinions, FWIW.

Sikhs!

And yet the largest community of Sikhs outside India is in the UK.

I think people may be telling you what they feel you wish to hear...

[Roman W]

Post by Bill

Post by Duwop
As one would expect, it's complex. As a rule, Sikhs seem to have
more hostile opinions, FWIW.

Sikhs!
And yet the largest community of Sikhs outside India is in the UK.

One does not contradict the other.

RW

[Haydn]

Post by Alan Meyer
The novel is said to be a fictionalized account of the life of the
author's father. If it's accurate, and I have no knowledge one way or
the other if it is, the Italian occupiers were roundly hated by the
local Somali and Ethiopian people for their selfishness and brutality.

The Ethiopians (to be told apart from the Eritreans, who were much more
accustomed to Italian rule, since 1885) certainly could not love the
Italians, who had conquered their country as late as 1936 and had been
going quite heavy on repression since - the massacre of Debra Libanos
stands out as an act of absolute unwarranted brutality and mass murder.

However and notwithstanding that, a lot of Ethiopians served under
Italian flags during WWII, in many cases honorably. IIRC the leader of
the last anti-British guerrilla band left by the Italians in East Africa
- probably the last Axis unit to lay down their arms in the Western
hemisphere - who fought on, isolated in the Ethiopian wilderness, until
1946, was an Ethiopian NCO, not an Eritrean. But I may be wrong on that
detail.

(The band did not surrender. After realizing their cause was lost beyond
hope, they just broke up, the group dissolved, and each guerrilla got
back to civilian life. So in a way, it can be said that the last active
Axis unit on the Western hemisphere was never defeated in combat, but it
simply ceased to exist).

As to the Somalis, I wouldn't say they "hated" the Italians. They put up
with them as they had no alternative and as long as could not get rid of
them, just like many other African and Asian peoples living under
Western colonial rule. But "hatred" is too strong a word to define the
Somalis' feelings towards the Italians.

Haydn

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Haydn
a lot of Ethiopians served under
Italian flags during WWII, in many cases honorably.

Yep. As in many parts of Asia, Africa,
and the Middle East, local rivalries
and tribal identities overrode "national"
loyalty. It was nearly always possible
for a colonial power to find locals who
would serve them against their local
enemies.

(Not that this was not also found in
Europe - the subjugation of the
Scottish highlands was largely carried
out by rival clansmen, and WW II
Yugoslavia was a stewpot of ethnic feuds.)

[Marlock]

Post by dumbstruck
I'm reading an interesting book by a mid-level "Panzer Commander", I will
pass along some of his impressions from various fronts that surprised me,
and maybe you can recommend other such memoirs. I had read the Stuka memoirs
and maybe something by a u-boat commander, Incidentally this author (Hans
von Luck) pointed out how early in the war the army could have it easy
just idling in some comfy town, while the air force and navy was constantly
in grinding combat.
I remember a US correspondent retracing the invasion of France being shocked
to find almost no signs of defensive combat. Luck points out that they
simply ignored French forces unless they were directly in the way of an
objective. The French would shoot from the sides, but Rommel told them
to simply drive faster and let the infantry later mop up.
Luck captures villages on the north and west coast of France, usually
under affable conditions. From his "von" you can guess he is an old style
aristocrat that treated opponents with some honor, but was followed up by
party thug occupiers that made the villages regret their easy giving up.
In Russia, the villages at first saw him as a Christian liberator over
atheism, and immediately reopened churches and services until the thugs
came. In Africa, Bedouins welcomed them as supposed Jew killers vs the
colonial British (to his embarrassment).
Luck's uniform problems come in Africa, not Russia. In Russia, the
German people sent enough warm civilian clothes... the problem being
it was mostly pilfered before reaching the front line troops. There were
no rules about distributing non-standard clothes, so the troops in the
comfy rear just grabbed what they wanted and passed on the junk. For
Africa, the tropical uniform was hot, tight, and didn't breathe. So
they had to find Italian uniforms (maybe caused some confusion to allies?).
Luck is pretty lucky or smart. He retreats from Russia (in his Mercedes)
alongside AA guns, while the rest of the column is mauled by strafing.
When a Russian raises a rifle to shoot him, he is holding a machine
pistol which he can instantly tilt up and spray first... maybe not so
good results if he depended on a pistol or carbine. I will end with the
magic keywords that prevent my posts from being automatically rejected
due to inadvertent length problems... long lines

That's an excellent book! I liked the part where he, upon leaving the African
front, received a letter from the opposed SAS commander, whishing him well.
And how he described the MoU cease-fire that the Germans and Brits established
in desert (no warfare after 17 p.m.). And how the captured German officer
(aristocrat) refused to be traded for an amount of cigarretes he considered to
be too small, only to spend the rest of the war in a prison camp.

Hans von Luck basically has stories to tell that would befit a box office
movie. He received a gift from a Polish villager (a dog, if I remember
correctly) after the successful occupation of Poland; was the assigned officer
to negotiate the French surrender in the vicinity of Bordeaux; during the
German defence of Caen, recaptured the tricycle that belonged to his unit in
Afrika Korps; earned the resepct of the British counterparts in the same
theater; nearly had him self blown out of the sky over Sicily, when he, after
successfully rejamming the mounted machine-gun, fired off a few practice
shoots, only to be heavily fired upon by Italian AA guns (mistaken for a
British bomber); summoned by the Russian officer in charge of the POW camp
after the war, only to find out that the same officer had commanded a unit
that was just about to have breakfast some 40 clicks out of Moskow, when
Luck's panzers rolled over the bridge into the village, entered the HQ, and
ate their breakfast (the Russian have escaped, leaving the omlettes for the
Germans); and so on and so fort. Truly an amazing capture of the events from
his personal standpoint.

I would perhaps also like to stress that he was good friends with Ambrose
after the war. When the two of them visited the Pegasus bridge, Ambrose
introduced Luck to the lady owner of the famed Gondrée café as his Swedish
colleague, as no Germans were allowed in. Just to name one funny recollection.

So, if u r in for a good read, thumbs up!

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Marlock
Truly an amazing capture of the events from
his personal standpoint.

As with all such memoirs, one should read
"cum grano salis".

And with German memoirs, especially so.
The post-war Germans wished very much to
sanitize their actions and motives, and
to emphasize their prowess. (Not that there's
anything particularly distinctive about that,
but the Germans needed to more than others.)

[Marlock]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by Marlock
Truly an amazing capture of the events from
his personal standpoint.

As with all such memoirs, one should read
"cum grano salis".
And with German memoirs, especially so.
The post-war Germans wished very much to
sanitize their actions and motives, and
to emphasize their prowess. (Not that there's
anything particularly distinctive about that,
but the Germans needed to more than others.)

I, of course, agree with both comments, but the history is writen by the
victors, so, in retrospect, one should read all history with the touch of salt
:)

In any case, he did focus, naturally, on particular events that stayed with
him over the years, which is only natural. One particular event comes to mind.
His, at the time, wife's (of wife-to-be) father was placed into a
concentration camp, and despite his best efforts, he could not save him.
Imagine what he must have been going through in his mind. I do not remember
any recollection on that part in the memoirs, but I suppose there are thing
one does not write about that easily. Unlike the feeling that I got from
reading Speer's book, Luck does not argue pro or contra with regard to
anything, he simply states the events as he saw them, and what he has
personally gone through. And given the fact that he has quite a few thing to
say, it makes it an interesting read. I should perhaps also point out that,
after the war, he was a frequent visitor in the British (perhaps American?)
army training centres, teaching about wartime (German and Allied alike)
tactis. That should, I suppose, stand for something.

[Michael Emrys]

Post by Marlock
Hans von Luck basically has stories to tell that would befit a box office
movie.

True enough. But one should not confuse good entertainment with good
history. Von Luck's account is certainly good entertainment and does
contain some useful information IMHO, but what Rich Rostrom says about
taking it with a grain of salt now and then is good advice. The author
is playing to the audience and does not appear willing to risk losing
their sympathy.

Michael

[The Horny Goat]

Post by Michael Emrys

Post by Marlock
Hans von Luck basically has stories to tell that would befit a box office
movie.

True enough. But one should not confuse good entertainment with good
history. Von Luck's account is certainly good entertainment and does
contain some useful information IMHO, but what Rich Rostrom says about
taking it with a grain of salt now and then is good advice. The author
is playing to the audience and does not appear willing to risk losing
their sympathy.

Hey I enjoyed Chuikov's books on Stalingrad and Berlin but anyone who
read them without a well tuned BS detector (both were written during
the peak of the Cold War) would be in trouble. Ditto for Carrell and
Werth.

[dumbstruck]

I should have entitled this "Axis Memoirs", because I'm also getting a
lot out of a Japanese book called "I-Boat Commander". You need thick skin
because he is very condescending of US competence, but he may have some
points. He seems to think only Yamamoto and bad luck lost their war.

I found the wikipedia entry on Hans Luck interesting where they questioned
his story of bullying a Luftwaffe AA gun crew to wipe out countless tanks
in operation goodwood. It was one of a number of times he threatened his
own side at pistol point to do something against their orders.

Contrast the above good books with a strange one called "Five Years, Four
Fronts" by Georg Grossjohann. He doesn't write much about his combat,
but rather his romantic conquests and odd characters such as arrogant
aristocratic commanders and fellow soldiers from rural Germany with
provincial accents and quirks. It has a good editor with capsule
background info though.

[Jim H.]

Post by dumbstruck
I should have entitled this "Axis Memoirs", because I'm also getting a
lot out of a Japanese book called "I-Boat Commander". You need thick skin
because he is very condescending of US competence, but he may have some
points. He seems to think only Yamamoto and bad luck lost their war.
I found the wikipedia entry on Hans Luck interesting where they questioned
his story of bullying a Luftwaffe AA gun crew to wipe out countless tanks
in operation goodwood. It was one of a number of times he threatened his
own side at pistol point to do something against their orders.
Contrast the above good books with a strange one called "Five Years, Four
Fronts" by Georg Grossjohann. He doesn't write much about his combat,
but rather his romantic conquests and odd characters such as arrogant
aristocratic commanders and fellow soldiers from rural Germany with
provincial accents and quirks. It has a good editor with capsule
background info though.

Then there's "The Forgotten Soldier," by Guy Sajer.
I enjoyed it, and had no suspicions about its
authenticity when I first read it 20+ years ago. But
the last time I researched it, there seemed to be
definite questions about it.

It still strikes me as authentic, allowing for the
difficulties of translation, 'normal' exaggeration,
& frailties of memory. IMO, a pretty good view of
the common soldier's life.

Jim H.

[GFH]

Post by Jim H.

Post by dumbstruck
I should have entitled this "Axis Memoirs", because I'm also getting a
lot out of a Japanese book called "I-Boat Commander". You need thick skin
because he is very condescending of US competence, but he may have some
points. He seems to think only Yamamoto and bad luck lost their war.
I found the wikipedia entry on Hans Luck interesting where they questioned
his story of bullying a Luftwaffe AA gun crew to wipe out countless tanks
in operation goodwood. It was one of a number of times he threatened his
own side at pistol point to do something against their orders.
Contrast the above good books with a strange one called "Five Years, Four
Fronts" by Georg Grossjohann. He doesn't write much about his combat,
but rather his romantic conquests and odd characters such as arrogant
aristocratic commanders and fellow soldiers from rural Germany with
provincial accents and quirks. It has a good editor with capsule
background info though.

Then there's "The Forgotten Soldier," by Guy Sajer.
I enjoyed it, and had no suspicions about its
authenticity when I first read it 20+ years ago. But
the last time I researched it, there seemed to be
definite questions about it.
It still strikes me as authentic, allowing for the
difficulties of translation, 'normal' exaggeration,
& frailties of memory. IMO, a pretty good view of
the common soldier's life.

Some here will remember Heinz Altmann. His memoir is
very interesting.
http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=32

GFH

[Michael Kuettner]

dumbstruck wrote:
<snip>

Post by dumbstruck
I found the wikipedia entry on Hans Luck interesting where they questioned
his story of bullying a Luftwaffe AA gun crew to wipe out countless tanks
in operation goodwood. It was one of a number of times he threatened his
own side at pistol point to do something against their orders.

Well, if it was the FlaK 41, the story might be a little embellished,
but true.
That AA gun was a very successful tank killer.

The general lesson :
It's the job of historians to go through the sources and extract
the grains of truth. Be it Churchill or Luck. Both lied through
their teeth...

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[dumbstruck]

Post by Michael Kuettner
Well, if it was the FlaK 41, the story might be a little embellished,
but true.
That AA gun was a very successful tank killer.

The issue isn't the famous effectiveness of that flak gun, but whether
one alone held up a large British advance and knocked out 40 tanks. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Luck#Operation_Goodwood

Both memoirs I mentioned give a lot of grudging credit to the US
artillery effectiveness... I suppose due to spotting systems, etc rather
than for gun technology. Grossjohann describes emergency use of their
150mm lobbing guns (mortars or howitzers?) which they tipped down and
absolutely vaporized approaching sherman tanks and sent others fleeing.

It's interesting to think about how these guys survived to tell the tale
of so much combat. It seems to help exposing yourself and getting wounded
and sent back just before the enemy wipes out your entire group. Also
get promotions where they are constantly sending you back to school.
Always have a machine pistol at the ready... both knock out an enemy
already training a long rifle on them by just pivoting and spray.

I would like to compare some British and Italian memoirs. On the other
hand my Japanese "I Boat Commander" memoir is kind of frustrating due to
denying point by point the US Navy narrative of the war. I would like
to see some reply by a third party on where the truth lies, like did
the US relentlessly strafe survivors of sunk boats, yet prosecute the
Japanese for doing so? Maybe in the case of "the slot" the US realized
enemy survivors could make it to shore and bolster Guadalcanal forces?