Discussion:
Win the war in India or Middle East
(too old to reply)
Chris Allen
2014-12-21 22:35:45 UTC
Permalink
General Brooke wrote an account of discussions he had in Feb-March 1942
with an Australian Govt minister.

At the time Japan was rampaging into the Southern Pacific. Most of the
Australain Army had been deployed in the eastern Mediterranean for about
2 years. Many Autrailians felt they had no defence at home and should
withdraw all soldiers for local defence. General Brooke was trying to
persuade them not to do so.

Brooke tried to explain to the minister that the war would be "won or
lost in India or the Middle East". Whatever happened in the Pacific
would not affect the final result. Consequently withdrawing Australian
soldiers would only DELAY final victory. Brook was apparently
incredulous that the Australian minister "simply could not understand"
this simple truth.

Question.
Why did Brooke believe that success in India or the Middle East was so
important? It ceratnly is not obvious to me.

FWIW.
I know that about this time Japan decided to isolate Australia, rather
than capture it. Iv'e no idea if Brooke knew this. Australia certainly
did not know it.
Rich Rostrom
2014-12-22 03:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Allen
Question.
Why did Brooke believe that success in India or the Middle East was so
important? It ceratnly is not obvious to me.
In India and the Middle East, the Axis appeared to pose
a threat of attack in force on important Allied assets
and positions. India or the Middle East might be _lost_.

In the Pacific, it seemed (I'm guessing at Brooke's
thinking), the worst that could happen was loss of
some small island posts and raids against Australia.

One suspects that he thought that after all, it was a
long way from the areas Japan was then moving into
(Malaya, Borneo, even the Bismarcks) to Australia,
and the U.S. Navy was there to interfere;. And that
furthermore, the U.S had troops in the Pacific which
could be rushed to the defense of Australia faster
than troops could be brought from the Middle East.
--
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SolomonW
2014-12-22 16:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
In India and the Middle East, the Axis appeared to pose
a threat of attack in force on important Allied assets
and positions. India or the Middle East might be _lost_.
And is it an accident that these were British positions? There is no way
that these areas were critical to the overall war effort.
Post by Rich Rostrom
In the Pacific, it seemed (I'm guessing at Brooke's
thinking), the worst that could happen was loss of
some small island posts and raids against Australia.
Until Midway in June 1942, I doubt that this is what he thought. Although
in retrospect, this is true, the reality to people during Feb-March, 1942
was that a Japanese fleet and invasion forces could strike anywhere in the
region.

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Chris Allen
2014-12-24 05:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Allen
Question.
Why did Brooke believe that success in India or the Middle East was so
important? It ceratnly is not obvious to me.
And that furthermore, the U.S had troops in the Pacific which
could be rushed to the defense of Australia faster
than troops could be brought from the Middle East.
This argument does not stand up.

US troops "in the Pacific" had just been captured in the Philpines (or
on the verge of same). The US simply had no more troops the could be
rushed to Australia's defence, or any where else.

Further more, if there WERE any spare US troops, Brook would apply
pressure to send them to Europe. If he claimed he could not spare
Australians to defend thier own homes, he could spare sending Americans
in thier place. Rosevelt & Churchill would have supported him.

In an another part of the same book, Brooke comments on the agreement
between Churchill and Rosevelt on how to divide command in the Indian &
Pacific regions. Britain would command from Malaya and to the west. US
would command to the east of Malaya. That meant Auatralia and New
Zealand were in the US zone. Brooke was disturbed this would be bad
"for the empire" because Britain would loose influence in the Pacific.
Given these sentiments, he would not welcome the notion of "rushing US
troops" to Australia's defence.

FWIW someonelse bought the last copy of this book "War Diaries of Sir
Alan Brooke" so I never read all of it. The answer may be somewhere
else in the same book.
Bill Shatzer
2014-12-24 07:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Allen
Post by Chris Allen
Question.
Why did Brooke believe that success in India or the Middle East was so
important? It ceratnly is not obvious to me.
And that furthermore, the U.S had troops in the Pacific which
could be rushed to the defense of Australia faster
than troops could be brought from the Middle East.
This argument does not stand up.
US troops "in the Pacific" had just been captured in the Philpines (or
on the verge of same). The US simply had no more troops the could be
rushed to Australia's defence, or any where else.
The US had two infantry divisions in Hawaii (the 24th and 25th Infantry
Divisions) plus assorted non-divisional units such as coastal artillery
and antiaircraft regiments.

I've no idea how combat ready these forces were (likely not very) and
given the general invasion paranoia at the time which envisioned
Japanese forces landing on Waikiki (not to mention San Diego), in seems
unlikely they would readily be dispatched to the defense of Australia.

Still, even after the fall of the Philippines, the US retained
significant troop strength in the Pacific.

(Additionally, the lead elements of what eventually became the 23rd
Infantry (Americal) Division were en route to the Pacific by February,
1942.)
Don Phillipson
2014-12-24 16:20:35 UTC
Permalink
US troops "in the Pacific" had just been captured in the Philpines (or on
the verge of same). The US simply had no more troops the could be rushed
to Australia's defence, or any where else.
Furthermore, if there WERE any spare US troops, Brooke would apply
pressure to send them to Europe. If he claimed he could not spare
Australians to defend thier own homes, he could spare sending Americans in
thier place. Rosevelt & Churchill would have supported him.
In an another part of the same book, Brooke comments on the agreement
between Churchill and Rosevelt on how to divide command in the Indian &
Pacific regions. Britain would command from Malaya and to the west. US
would command to the east of Malaya. That meant Auatralia and New Zealand
were in the US zone. Brooke was disturbed this would be bad "for the
empire" because Britain would loose influence in the Pacific.
Other factors:
1. Australian public opinion believed Australian troops had been
mishandled by British commanders in both N.Africa and Singapore
(reminding them of similar treatment in WW1 e.g. Gallipoli.)
2. A token Japanese invasion of Australian soil seemed a real
possibility in 1942. If this had happened it would have powerfully
influenced public opinion in both Australia and Japan.

The dispute reminds us of possible conflict between tactical
aims (e.g. defence of the homeland, British or Australian) and
strategic aims (victory over Berlin and Tokyo) recognized in
London ever since the surrender of the Channel Islands in
1940. Brooke was alert to this and judged Churchill was not
(cf. Churchill's enthusiasm for routes of indirect attack, e.g.
Norway, Sarawak.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
The Horny Goat
2014-12-25 06:45:35 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:20:35 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
Post by Don Phillipson
1. Australian public opinion believed Australian troops had been
mishandled by British commanders in both N.Africa and Singapore
(reminding them of similar treatment in WW1 e.g. Gallipoli.)
2. A token Japanese invasion of Australian soil seemed a real
possibility in 1942. If this had happened it would have powerfully
influenced public opinion in both Australia and Japan.
I'd say #1 was a much bigger factor than #2 since while a landing on
Australian soil was certainly possible, a successful Japanese conquest
of Australia was even less likely than a Wehrmacht parade through
Edinburgh.
Post by Don Phillipson
The dispute reminds us of possible conflict between tactical
aims (e.g. defence of the homeland, British or Australian) and
strategic aims (victory over Berlin and Tokyo) recognized in
London ever since the surrender of the Channel Islands in
1940. Brooke was alert to this and judged Churchill was not
(cf. Churchill's enthusiasm for routes of indirect attack, e.g.
Norway, Sarawak.)
I don't think that's fair comment since there was in fact no British
attempt to defend the Channel Islands. The 'defence' of Guernsey had
nothing at all to do with the defence of Bataan including the
behaviour of the respective occupying troops.
Rich Rostrom
2014-12-24 17:38:29 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Chris Allen
Post by Chris Allen
Question.
Why did Brooke believe that success in India or the Middle East was so
important? It ceratnly is not obvious to me.
And that furthermore, the U.S had troops in the Pacific which
could be rushed to the defense of Australia faster
than troops could be brought from the Middle East.
This argument does not stand up.
US troops "in the Pacific" had just been captured in the Philpines (or
on the verge of same). The US simply had no more troops the could be
rushed to Australia's defence, or any where else.
Aside from the Americal Division (in New Caledonia
in February), and the 41st Division (in Australia in
April, and the 32nd Division (in Australia in May),
and the Marine 1st Division (in Guadalcanal in August);
and all the newly formed troops in CONUS.
Post by Chris Allen
Further more, if there WERE any spare US troops, Brook would apply
pressure to send them to Europe.
To do what? The British were adamantly opposed to
any ground operations in Europe at that time, and
Britain was in no danger of invasion.

The only other area where American troops might be
used was the Middle East. Sending American troops
on a very long voyage around Africa to replace
Australian troops who would then be sent on the
long voyage back to the south Pacific... An
obvious waste of manpower and shipping.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
a425couple
2015-01-04 05:18:18 UTC
Permalink
FWIW someonelse bought the last copy of this book "War Diaries of Sir Alan
Brooke" so I never read all of it. The answer may be somewhere else in
the same book.
??
Well, I do not know what prices in Australia are,
but I see some for sale for US shipping from Amazon.
Used, paperback at $3.34 + 3.99 shipping,
and $3.35 + 3.99 shipping, and shipping to Australia
should not be too expensive.
Plus the index is available on free preview.

War Diaries, 1939-1945: Field Marshall Lord Alanbrooke
Paperback - March 14, 2002
by Alan Brooke Viscount Alanbrooke

at
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1842125265/ref=sr_1_1_twi_2_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420318520&sr=1-1&keywords=alan+brooke
Bill
2014-12-22 17:07:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:35:45 -0500, Chris Allen
Post by Chris Allen
General Brooke wrote an account of discussions he had in Feb-March 1942
with an Australian Govt minister.
At the time Japan was rampaging into the Southern Pacific. Most of the
Australain Army had been deployed in the eastern Mediterranean for about
2 years. Many Autrailians felt they had no defence at home and should
withdraw all soldiers for local defence. General Brooke was trying to
persuade them not to do so.
Brooke tried to explain to the minister that the war would be "won or
lost in India or the Middle East". Whatever happened in the Pacific
would not affect the final result. Consequently withdrawing Australian
soldiers would only DELAY final victory. Brook was apparently
incredulous that the Australian minister "simply could not understand"
this simple truth.
Question.
Why did Brooke believe that success in India or the Middle East was so
important? It ceratnly is not obvious to me.
FWIW.
I know that about this time Japan decided to isolate Australia, rather
than capture it. Iv'e no idea if Brooke knew this. Australia certainly
did not know it.
From a British perspective there were two absolutely vital battles
that turned the tide and stopped axis expansion.

One is the First Battle of El Alamein (not the famous one) in 1942
where the Axis forces driving on Cairo were stopped and never regained
the possibility of recovery.

The other was the utter defeat of 'Plan U Go' in 1944 at Imphal and
Kohima where the Japanese forces were destroyed, again without the
possibility of recovery.

After these two the British knew they'd win because US manufacturing
would supply them and they knew that they could defeat their enemies
with their superior tactics and equipment.
David Wilma
2014-12-22 18:30:50 UTC
Permalink
A wartime bit of art was copied in U.S. Camera magazine.
It depicted the ceremonial linkup between German and
Japanese forces somewhere along the Silk Road I suppose.
I remember that the Japanese soldiers all had the neck
cloth hanging behind their caps. The purpose of the image
was to inspire soldiers and workers to prevent such a
scene, sort of like an enemy flay flying from the Capitol.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-12-23 15:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Allen
General Brooke wrote an account of discussions he had in Feb-March 1942
with an Australian Govt minister.
At the time Japan was rampaging into the Southern Pacific. Most of the
Australain Army had been deployed in the eastern Mediterranean for about 2
years. Many Autrailians felt they had no defence at home and should
withdraw all soldiers for local defence. General Brooke was trying to
persuade them not to do so.
Brooke tried to explain to the minister that the war would be "won or lost
in India or the Middle East". Whatever happened in the Pacific would not
affect the final result. Consequently withdrawing Australian soldiers
would only DELAY final victory. Brook was apparently incredulous that the
Australian minister "simply could not understand" this simple truth.
Question.
Why did Brooke believe that success in India or the Middle East was so
important? It ceratnly is not obvious to me.
The economics. The loss of Middle East oil would be a major loss
even if the axis could not exploit it. India had around 340 million
people, Australia had around 7 million, per person the Australian
economy was better but not 50 times. Even though it was all
volunteer the Indian Army ended up bigger than the Australian one.

The loss of India would open up the Middle East to another line
of attack and vice versa. Australia was effectively the end of
the line going south.

To be facetious, check where most of Britain's tea came from.
Post by Chris Allen
FWIW.
I know that about this time Japan decided to isolate Australia, rather
than capture it. Iv'e no idea if Brooke knew this. Australia certainly
did not know it.
At the time the Japanese were apparently rewriting the rule book on
amphibious operations, using far less shipping and troops than the
western allies thought would be needed. So their capabilities were
going from underestimated to overestimated. However the main
Japanese war plan in February/March 1942 was to end up roughly
where they did end in May 1942. The much lower costs of the early
operations later made some think in terms of going further, but the
reality was the Japanese lacked the shipping to service and defend
what they ended up with.

On top of this came Yamamoto and his war plan to keep forcing the
USN to fight while the IJN held an advantage. Which a lack of troops
meant seizing islands, not continents.

Brooke was effectively talking a London centric grand military
strategy without adding the political and personal. Peripheral
areas could be sacrificed to protect the core ones. Core being
defined in London, not Canberra.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
The Horny Goat
2014-12-23 19:35:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Dec 2014 10:42:17 -0500, "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The loss of India would open up the Middle East to another line
of attack and vice versa. Australia was effectively the end of
the line going south.
Unless you're expecting great things militarily from the Tasmanian
Koala or the Antarctic penguins it pretty much IS the 'end of the line
going south'.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
To be facetious, check where most of Britain's tea came from.
I'm pretty sure Churchill would happily swap all the tea of India for
half a dozen atomic bombs in early 1942 when the Japanese were running
rampant. (Assuming he even underestood what an atomic bomb had the
potential to be as early as spring 1942...)
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Chris Allen
FWIW.
I know that about this time Japan decided to isolate Australia, rather
than capture it. Iv'e no idea if Brooke knew this. Australia certainly
did not know it.
Well they tried. I'm pretty sure what the odds were - logistically it
would have been easier to isolate Hawaii which is at least closer to
Japan than the main Australian - UK or USA sea routes.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Brooke was effectively talking a London centric grand military
strategy without adding the political and personal. Peripheral
areas could be sacrificed to protect the core ones. Core being
defined in London, not Canberra.
Thus proving that "England would fight to the last Australian" which
was something every Aussie soldier "knew"
Bill
2014-12-23 21:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
I'm pretty sure Churchill would happily swap all the tea of India for
half a dozen atomic bombs in early 1942 when the Japanese were running
rampant. (Assuming he even underestood what an atomic bomb had the
potential to be as early as spring 1942...)
He knew about their potential much earlier than that.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Brooke was effectively talking a London centric grand military
strategy without adding the political and personal. Peripheral
areas could be sacrificed to protect the core ones. Core being
defined in London, not Canberra.
Thus proving that "England would fight to the last Australian" which
was something every Aussie soldier "knew"
Australia declared war on Germany and accepted the command systems
imposed.

What's your problem with that?

Or would you have preferred more dead Englishmen?
The Horny Goat
2014-12-24 05:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by The Horny Goat
Thus proving that "England would fight to the last Australian" which
was something every Aussie soldier "knew"
Australia declared war on Germany and accepted the command systems
imposed.
What's your problem with that?
Or would you have preferred more dead Englishmen?
Notice I put "knew" in quotation marks.

I think you would get consensus amongst the Aussie members of
soc.history.what-if (a counterfactual newsgroup that has a lot of
familiar names posting here) that this was the conventional wisdom
amongst Aussie troops in WW2 and for the latter half of WW1 as well.

The Aussies were not the only "Empire" country where this mood was
prevalent. It certainly was the Canadian view after Dieppe where
casualties were perceived as much higher than they had to be primarily
due to a poor job of air support.
SolomonW
2014-12-24 16:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by The Horny Goat
Thus proving that "England would fight to the last Australian" which
was something every Aussie soldier "knew"
Australia declared war on Germany and accepted the command systems
imposed.
It was one thing to accept a command system when both partners feel that
they are supporting each other. This was not the case. Before Pearl Harbor,
Robert Menzies the Australian prime minister made a trip to England partly
to get supplies from Britain for protection of Australia. He got nothing.
As the situation developed after the Japanese attack, the Australian felt
abandoned by the British. The Australian Labor party won the election and
with a conservative support partly pulled Australia out of this command
system.





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Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-12-25 18:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by SolomonW
Post by Bill
Post by The Horny Goat
Thus proving that "England would fight to the last Australian" which
was something every Aussie soldier "knew"
Australia declared war on Germany and accepted the command systems
imposed.
It was one thing to accept a command system when both partners feel that
they are supporting each other. This was not the case. Before Pearl Harbor,
Robert Menzies the Australian prime minister made a trip to England partly
to get supplies from Britain for protection of Australia. He got nothing.
Not quite, the British did reinforce Malaya/Singapore. It was of course
not enough. Things like Brewster Buffalos. Indian army formations that
tended to have any trained troops replaced by new recruits. Force Z.

In the second half of 1941 the British sent a lot of equipment to the USSR,
judging that the crucial front.
Post by SolomonW
As the situation developed after the Japanese attack, the Australian felt
abandoned by the British. The Australian Labor party won the election and
with a conservative support partly pulled Australia out of this command
system.
The election was in 1940, it resulted in a hung parliament, the independents
chose to support the conservative side of politics under Menzies, who had
held a majority before the election. His his long absence in early 1941,
his
personality and the failure in Greece combined and he lost the support
of cabinet, resigning as Prime Minister in August 1941. The conservative
side of Australian politics was reported to be doing a lot of internal
feuding
in the late 1930's and that carried over into the war.

http://primeministers.naa.gov.au/timeline/results.aspx

Robert Menzies 26 Apr 1939 12th Prime Minister, after he was elected
leader of the United Australia Party.

Arthur Fadden 29 Aug 1941 13th Prime Minister, Country Party, had
been Deputy Prime Minister to Menzies, who had been forced to resign
as United Australia Party leader.

John Curtin 07 Oct 1941 14th Prime Minister, Labor Party, was sworn in
as Prime Minister after the Fadden coalition government lost majority
support in the House of Representatives. Two independents decided the
Labor Party was the better option.

The 21 August 1943 election gave the Labor Party a majority,
indeed the most comprehensive victory in both chambers since
Federation in 1901.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
SolomonW
2014-12-26 02:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by SolomonW
It was one thing to accept a command system when both partners feel that
they are supporting each other. This was not the case. Before Pearl Harbor,
Robert Menzies the Australian prime minister made a trip to England partly
to get supplies from Britain for protection of Australia. He got nothing.
Not quite, the British did reinforce Malaya/Singapore. It was of course
not enough. Things like Brewster Buffalos. Indian army formations that
tended to have any trained troops replaced by new recruits. Force Z.
It was never seen as enough, there were major complaints that much more was
needed.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In the second half of 1941 the British sent a lot of equipment to the USSR,
judging that the crucial front.
Yep, England and North Africa too! One big problem the Australian leaders
faced was it was very difficult to argue for the Pacific where military
equipment *might* be needed when in so many places the military equipment
*was* needed.

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Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-12-25 18:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Tue, 23 Dec 2014 10:42:17 -0500, "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The loss of India would open up the Middle East to another line
of attack and vice versa. Australia was effectively the end of
the line going south.
Unless you're expecting great things militarily from the Tasmanian
Koala or the Antarctic penguins it pretty much IS the 'end of the line
going south'.
Forgetting the Tasmanian Devils? Actually if they cannot stop
the Facial Tumour Disease the animal will probably go extinct
in the wild. Koalas tend to the laid back/pacifist outlook on life
which is why they can be handled without much chance of their
tree climbing claws hurting. Most people would be astounded
if Tasmanian Koalas became a military force, hint, note the
fossil record.

By the way Tasmania is part of Australia, a point often lost or
omitted, to the frustration of the inhabitants.

There were the Antarctic Whaling fleets, which were still important
enough, the German raider Pinguin went after them for a while.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
To be facetious, check where most of Britain's tea came from.
I'm pretty sure Churchill would happily swap all the tea of India for
half a dozen atomic bombs in early 1942 when the Japanese were running
rampant.
With a big problem in terms of delivery against Japan, think several
locations in Germany first.
Post by The Horny Goat
(Assuming he even underestood what an atomic bomb had the
potential to be as early as spring 1942...)
The basic potential of nuclear weapons was understood in 1942,
(very big bomb) the allies really felt they were in a race at the time.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Chris Allen
FWIW.
I know that about this time Japan decided to isolate Australia, rather
than capture it. Iv'e no idea if Brooke knew this. Australia certainly
did not know it.
Well they tried. I'm pretty sure what the odds were - logistically it
would have been easier to isolate Hawaii which is at least closer to
Japan than the main Australian - UK or USA sea routes.
Africa to Australia is effectively around 40 south, Singapore is
on the equator. And there are not a lot of convenient islands
in the Southern India Ocean.

If you look at the great circle routes even from the Panama
Canal the Japanese in possession of Fiji would cause a few
problems.

So yes, an attempt to isolate Australia would take a lot of effort
a long way from Japanese supply sources and probably cost
the allies a lot less in shipping efficiencies than the cost to Japan.
Taking places in Northern Australia would make more sense.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Brooke was effectively talking a London centric grand military
strategy without adding the political and personal. Peripheral
areas could be sacrificed to protect the core ones. Core being
defined in London, not Canberra.
Thus proving that "England would fight to the last Australian" which
was something every Aussie soldier "knew"
The last X, where X can be any number of groups feeling hard done
by including the various sub groups in the United Kingdom.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Merlin Dorfman
2014-12-27 07:23:51 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 13:19:03 -0500, Geoffrey Sinclair wrote:

..
If you look at the great circle routes even from the Panama Canal the
Japanese in possession of Fiji would cause a few problems.
So yes, an attempt to isolate Australia would take a lot of effort a
long way from Japanese supply sources and probably cost the allies a lot
less in shipping efficiencies than the cost to Japan. Taking places in
Northern Australia would make more sense.
..

I have long wondered why Admiral King, the US Navy, and seemingly
the entire American military establishment was so focused on "protecting
the supply lines to Australia" during the first few months of the war, at
least up to the invasion of Guadalcanal. If the Japanese took Fiji, or
Samoa, or Tonga, or the New Hebrides, or just about anything, as long as
New Zealand remained in allied hands the path to Australia would be clear
and would be only marginally longer than it was at the start of the war.
Am I missing something?
Scott M. Kozel
2014-12-27 18:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
..
If you look at the great circle routes even from the Panama Canal the
Japanese in possession of Fiji would cause a few problems.
So yes, an attempt to isolate Australia would take a lot of effort a
long way from Japanese supply sources and probably cost the allies a lot
less in shipping efficiencies than the cost to Japan. Taking places in
Northern Australia would make more sense.
..
I have long wondered why Admiral King, the US Navy, and seemingly
the entire American military establishment was so focused on "protecting
the supply lines to Australia" during the first few months of the war, at
least up to the invasion of Guadalcanal. If the Japanese took Fiji, or
Samoa, or Tonga, or the New Hebrides, or just about anything, as long as
New Zealand remained in allied hands the path to Australia would be clear
and would be only marginally longer than it was at the start of the war.
Am I missing something?
It is more than "marginally longer", but still a very feasible cargo shipping route during wartime.

I have always agreed that the "protecting the supply lines to Australia" was an overstated issue.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-12-28 19:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
If you look at the great circle routes even from the Panama Canal the
Japanese in possession of Fiji would cause a few problems.
So yes, an attempt to isolate Australia would take a lot of effort a
long way from Japanese supply sources and probably cost the allies a lot
less in shipping efficiencies than the cost to Japan. Taking places in
Northern Australia would make more sense.
I have long wondered why Admiral King, the US Navy, and seemingly
the entire American military establishment was so focused on "protecting
the supply lines to Australia" during the first few months of the war, at
least up to the invasion of Guadalcanal. If the Japanese took Fiji, or
Samoa, or Tonga, or the New Hebrides, or just about anything, as long as
New Zealand remained in allied hands the path to Australia would be clear
and would be only marginally longer than it was at the start of the war.
Am I missing something?
I would suspect the main missing piece is the US fleet location.

If the great circle route site I used is correct the direct route from
Hawaii to Sydney passes over Baker Island (975 miles from Majuro
in the Marshall Islands, 730 from Tarawa), Tuvalu, around 1250 miles
from Majuro. It passes about 35 miles east and south of Port Vila
in Vanuatu, which is about 330 miles from Noumea New Caledonia,
while Fiji is about 600 miles to the west. The route crosses New
Caledonia at about the mid point of the island.

The great circle from Los Angeles to Sydney passes over Tokelau and
Fiji and is about 200 miles south of New Caledonia. So over 500 to
600 miles from Port Vila. As you would expect the closer to Australia
the closer the routes from Hawaii and Los Angeles become.

The great circle route Panama to Sydney passes over Pitcairn Island
and the North Island of New Zealand.

So if the objective is to cut or cause problems shipping supplies to
Australia from the US then taking Fiji and/or New Caledonia is about
the minimum required given the islands spread out the further east
you go in the Pacific.

If the objective is to make it harder for the USN to deploy into places like
the Coral Sea then there is not the need to go as far. The southern end
of the Solomons (Santa Cruz Islands) would at least bring the route into
(long range) reconnaissance range. Take Vanuatu and you would force
a significant detour, while places like Baker island further north are much
closer than Vanuatu to pre war Japanese territory and would force bigger
detours.

The another missing piece would probably be ensuring the US troops
sent to Australia did not feel they had been cut off, like the Philippines.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Haydn
2014-12-23 19:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The economics. The loss of Middle East oil would be a major loss
even if the axis could not exploit it.
Memory may fail me on the exact figure but in 1941-42, Middle East oil
should have made up no more than 7 to 8% of the entire Allied oil
resources worldwide. Losing it would not have been good, but the Allies
wouldn't have lost the war on account of that.

The problem for the Commonwealth - assuming the Axis broke through to
the Suez Canal - would have been broader than just keeping hold of the
Iraqi and Iranian oil wells. Once evicted from Egypt, the line of supply
for a British Middle East front would have suddenly lengthened to
faraway Basra and the Iranian ports, which means a long way.

I'm not sure about the conditions of the ground and air transport
network and the port facilities over that area in 1941-42, but I guess
they were far from optimal. If I am correct on that point, it is
extremely doubtful that the Commonwealth alone would have had the
colossal resources needed to improve and expand, and create wherever
non-existent, and within a reasonable time frame, a logistical structure
suited to maintain in full operational state a large army in contact
with Rommel and whose logistical tail would have been a couple thousand
miles long all the way to Bandar Abbas or Bushehr.

I suppose a massive American help would have been required. The
consequences of such a diversion of resources to keep a Middle East
front in existence might have upset the entire Allied schedule. Let
alone the inevitable consequence of Britain surrendering the coalition
leadership to the US in 1942 instead of 1943, when they finally
acknowledged that without American shipping the Commonwealth war effort
on a global scale couldn't simply be sustained anymore (a fact already
in effect in 1942).

Of course the option of simply giving up a Middle East front and letting
Rommel and the Italians wander around oilwells in flames and deal with
exasperating Arab bargainers would also have been open. But was that a
politically viable option?

Haydn
SolomonW
2014-12-24 16:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Haydn
Memory may fail me on the exact figure but in 1941-42, Middle East oil
should have made up no more than 7 to 8% of the entire Allied oil
resources worldwide.
Most of that oil was a long way from the front in North Africa which eould
be unlikely to be lost.



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Michael Emrys
2014-12-24 17:37:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by SolomonW
Most of that oil was a long way from the front in North Africa which eould
be unlikely to be lost.
I'm sorry, could you clarify that a bit? Are you saying that the oil
"eould [sic] be unlikely to be lost" or that the front would? Either
assertion needs some explication.

Michael
SolomonW
2014-12-25 04:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
Post by SolomonW
Most of that oil was a long way from the front in North Africa which eould
be unlikely to be lost.
I'm sorry, could you clarify that a bit? Are you saying that the oil
"eould [sic] be unlikely to be lost" or that the front would? Either
assertion needs some explication.
If assuming the front in Egypt was lost, Egypt in WW2 had little oil. Most
of the oil was then in Iraq and Iran so even if the Germans take Egypt, it
is a long way to the oil in Iraq.




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The Horny Goat
2014-12-28 05:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by SolomonW
Post by Michael Emrys
I'm sorry, could you clarify that a bit? Are you saying that the oil
"eould [sic] be unlikely to be lost" or that the front would? Either
assertion needs some explication.
If assuming the front in Egypt was lost, Egypt in WW2 had little oil. Most
of the oil was then in Iraq and Iran so even if the Germans take Egypt, it
is a long way to the oil in Iraq.
And as I've said repeatedly on soc.history.what-if in the context of
the 1942 German campaign in the Caucasus, simply capturing oilfields
is merely the first step. Step 2 is actually pumping oil out of the
ground, step 3 is transporting it somewhere your side can make use of
it, step 4 is refining it into a useful form for your military or
civilian economy. (Naturally 3 and 4 can be done in either order as
both crude and refined oil products can be transported).
The Horny Goat
2014-12-25 06:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
Post by SolomonW
Most of that oil was a long way from the front in North Africa which eould
be unlikely to be lost.
I'm sorry, could you clarify that a bit? Are you saying that the oil
"eould [sic] be unlikely to be lost" or that the front would? Either
assertion needs some explication.
I understood that comment to mean that even with the Germans on the
Suez (ha!) it's still one helluva long way to the Persian Gulf not to
mention building the infrastructure to move the oil from the Gulf to
somewhere where it could conceivable aid the Third Reich - even if
they got permission to use Turkish railways to move oil.

Logistically, capturing (for instance) Kuwait is much more difficult
for the PanzerArmeeAfrika than "simply" getting to Suez.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-12-25 18:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Haydn
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The economics. The loss of Middle East oil would be a major loss
even if the axis could not exploit it.
Memory may fail me on the exact figure but in 1941-42, Middle East oil
should have made up no more than 7 to 8% of the entire Allied oil
resources worldwide. Losing it would not have been good, but the Allies
wouldn't have lost the war on account of that.
From Oil and War by Goralski and Freeburg.
In terms of absolute numbers you are more than correct, in 1942 Iran,
Iraq and Saudi Arabia produced around 265,000 barrels of crude oil
per day, the US alone was producing 3,800,000, Venezuela 404,589.
In refining terms in December 1940 the US was 58.1% of the world's
capacity, the Middle East 5.5%. So the Middle East was a source of
ready to use fuel. It had more refining capacity than Austria, France,
Germany and Italy combined.

However in terms of militarily usable oil the Middle East numbers go
up, in 1945 some 29% of US oil consumption was by the military, the
reason the oil industry was there in the first place was the civilian
economy, and while consumption could be curtailed and much of the
consumption during the war was making weapons etc. there were limits.

In 1940 military consumption was 1% of the 1,400,000 (refined) barrels
per day used in the US, in 1945 it was 29% of the 1,800,000 barrels
per day. It meant essentially civil consumption was down by around
100,000 barrels per day 1940 to 1945, rationing was offset by the
war driven increase in economic activity.

Almost all the oil in the Middle East was available for military use
and secondly it was quite close to the front line, important when the
allies lacked tankers even in 1944.
Post by Haydn
The problem for the Commonwealth - assuming the Axis broke through to the
Suez Canal - would have been broader than just keeping hold of the Iraqi
and Iranian oil wells. Once evicted from Egypt, the line of supply for a
British Middle East front would have suddenly lengthened to faraway Basra
and the Iranian ports, which means a long way.
Sudan, going down the Nile etc.

The reality is "Middle East" oil in 1942 was Iran at about 198,000
barrels per day, Saudi Arabia was only 12,400. So if the Middle
East oil is in axis hands they are in Iran.
Post by Haydn
I'm not sure about the conditions of the ground and air transport network
and the port facilities over that area in 1941-42, but I guess they were
far from optimal. If I am correct on that point, it is extremely doubtful
that the Commonwealth alone would have had the colossal resources needed
to improve and expand, and create wherever non-existent, and within a
reasonable time frame, a logistical structure suited to maintain in full
operational state a large army in contact with Rommel and whose logistical
tail would have been a couple thousand miles long all the way to Bandar
Abbas or Bushehr.
Fundamentally short of the USSR surrendering the logistics say the
axis at optimal could push the allies away from the Mediterranean.
After that the distances and transport networks effectively create
a gigantic no man's land. The axis would need to clear the Suez
canal and have the shipping to transport armies and their supplies
through the Red Sea
Post by Haydn
I suppose a massive American help would have been required. The
consequences of such a diversion of resources to keep a Middle East front
in existence might have upset the entire Allied schedule. Let alone the
inevitable consequence of Britain surrendering the coalition leadership to
the US in 1942 instead of 1943, when they finally acknowledged that
without American shipping the Commonwealth war effort on a global scale
couldn't simply be sustained anymore (a fact already in effect in 1942).
Fundamentally the British knew in 1940 they needed the US, as
for surrendering the coalition leadership the reality was that
required US forces in the field and better staff work at a high level
in the US. Something the US military learnt at Casablanca.

Thanks to the various fleets becoming British controlled and the
starting position the shipping situation in 1942 was the US needed
the British more, in particular the monster liners, the losses in 1942
and the major increase in US production changed that in 1943. For
the war about 21% of all US troops sent overseas were transported
in British controlled shipping.

With Japan in the war Britain needed US supplies across the board
to keep its current and planned military strength, plus lend lease to
avoid major post war economic problems.
Post by Haydn
Of course the option of simply giving up a Middle East front and letting
Rommel and the Italians wander around oilwells in flames and deal with
exasperating Arab bargainers would also have been open. But was that a
politically viable option?
If the axis take Egypt it reverses the supply situation and should enable
an axis force to take places like Palestine, after that comes sand.

The political consequences during the war would be less, it would
mainly be the military consequences, a reputation for being
ineffective (add Singapore) would make the US more wary of
being any sort of junior partner. The doctrines developed in the
desert really helped make the allies more effective.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Mario
2014-12-25 19:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Haydn
Of course the option of simply giving up a Middle East front
and letting Rommel and the Italians wander around oilwells
in flames and deal with exasperating Arab bargainers would
also have been open. But was that a politically viable
option?
If the axis take Egypt it reverses the supply situation and
should enable an axis force to take places like Palestine,
after that comes sand.
The political consequences during the war would be less, it
would mainly be the military consequences, a reputation for
being ineffective (add Singapore) would make the US more wary
of being any sort of junior partner. The doctrines developed
in the desert really helped make the allies more effective.
The loss of Mediterranean would mean that the only option left
to Allies is the invasion of Europe from Britain?
(no invasion of Italy)
--
oiram
Phil McGregor
2014-12-26 01:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
The loss of Mediterranean would mean that the only option left
to Allies is the invasion of Europe from Britain?
(no invasion of Italy)
Alternatively, they could do North Africa from the Atlantic coast and then across to Tunisia and *then* do Sicily etc.

The Axis taking North Africa doesn't change the fact that they have far far bigger logistic and manpower problems there than the Allies
will.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: ***@tpg.com.au
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-12-26 17:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
The loss of Mediterranean would mean that the only option left
to Allies is the invasion of Europe from Britain?
(no invasion of Italy)
Unlikely given the fact such an invasion was not going to be possible before
1944, it took that long to put together the trained forces, and shipping
(both
invasion and supply).

As Phil has noted it would be likely the allies would do the historical
invasion of French North Africa, though of course if the allies lose the
Middle East the status of Gibraltar becomes uncertain. As does whether
the French Atlantic colonies are allowed to remain axis troop free.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
The Horny Goat
2014-12-28 05:59:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Dec 2014 12:21:24 -0500, "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
As Phil has noted it would be likely the allies would do the historical
invasion of French North Africa, though of course if the allies lose the
Middle East the status of Gibraltar becomes uncertain. As does whether
the French Atlantic colonies are allowed to remain axis troop free.
Well Gibraltar only becomes iffy is Spain joins the Axis and as
numerous posters have stated, the logistics behind an attack on
Gibraltar are challenging.

As to whether there are significant German forces in French North
Africa that's a matter for politics and something Petain and Laval are
most unlikely to give without heavy German concessions or a German
attack.

I think it goes without saying that if Vichy France is attacked by
Germany, the French African ports will immediately be opened to the
Allies. To what extent they can be held depends primarily on the
logistics of a German attack - which given their record in Libya and
Egypt does not look promising for the Axis......
Merlin Dorfman
2014-12-27 04:53:56 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 13:19:39 -0500, Geoffrey Sinclair wrote:

..
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In 1940 military consumption was 1% of the 1,400,000 (refined) barrels
per day used in the US, in 1945 it was 29% of the 1,800,000 barrels per
day. It meant essentially civil consumption was down by around 100,000
barrels per day 1940 to 1945, rationing was offset by the war driven
increase in economic activity.
..

I've been told that gasoline rationing in the US had nothing to do
with a shortage of gasoline--there was plenty to go around. The issue
was a shortage of rubber due to Japanese capture of the Dutch East
Indies, the main source of natural rubber. By rationing gasoline, the
mileage that could be driven, and thus the wear on tires, and the use of
rubber, would be reduced.
Have I been misinformed all these years? :-)
sctvguy1
2014-12-27 18:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
..
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In 1940 military consumption was 1% of the 1,400,000 (refined) barrels
per day used in the US, in 1945 it was 29% of the 1,800,000 barrels per
day. It meant essentially civil consumption was down by around 100,000
barrels per day 1940 to 1945, rationing was offset by the war driven
increase in economic activity.
..
I've been told that gasoline rationing in the US had nothing to do
with a shortage of gasoline--there was plenty to go around. The issue
was a shortage of rubber due to Japanese capture of the Dutch East
Indies, the main source of natural rubber. By rationing gasoline, the
mileage that could be driven, and thus the wear on tires, and the use of
rubber, would be reduced.
Have I been misinformed all these years? :-)
You are correct! The US was the world's largest oil producer. There was
plenty of gas, just not enough rubber for the tires! I don't think that
the US was as far ahead as the Germans in synthetic rubber development.
Michael Emrys
2014-12-27 22:55:28 UTC
Permalink
The issue was a shortage of rubber due to Japanese capture of the
Dutch East Indies, the main source of natural rubber.
DEI? Really? I always thought it was Malaya that had the big rubber
plantations. Yes, rubber was always tight until the end of the war. Some
of the shortfall was made up by opening plants to make synthetic rubber
and some by creating new plantations in Brazil. But it was always a
limited resource.

Michael
Bill Shatzer
2014-12-28 05:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
The issue was a shortage of rubber due to Japanese capture of the
Dutch East Indies, the main source of natural rubber.
DEI? Really? I always thought it was Malaya that had the big rubber
plantations. Yes, rubber was always tight until the end of the war. Some
of the shortfall was made up by opening plants to make synthetic rubber
and some by creating new plantations in Brazil. But it was always a
limited resource.
Rubber production in the NEI was approximately equal to production in
Malaya; in 1939, the NEI produced 372,000 tons of rubber compared to
376,000 tons from Malaya.

Both were important - Malaya and the NEI together controlled 70% of the
world's prewar natural rubber production. A substantial portion of the
remainder came from French Indochina and Thailand - which would have
been equally unavailable to the Allies.
Michael Emrys
2014-12-28 22:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Rubber production in the NEI was approximately equal to production
in Malaya; in 1939, the NEI produced 372,000 tons of rubber compared
to 376,000 tons from Malaya.
Thanks for that, Bill. It's always good to nail down the numbers. I
hadn't realized that the DEI produced anything like that much.

Michael
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-12-28 19:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merlin Dorfman
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In 1940 military consumption was 1% of the 1,400,000 (refined) barrels
per day used in the US, in 1945 it was 29% of the 1,800,000 barrels per
day. It meant essentially civil consumption was down by around 100,000
barrels per day 1940 to 1945, rationing was offset by the war driven
increase in economic activity.
I've been told that gasoline rationing in the US had nothing to do
with a shortage of gasoline--there was plenty to go around. The issue
was a shortage of rubber due to Japanese capture of the Dutch East
Indies, the main source of natural rubber. By rationing gasoline, the
mileage that could be driven, and thus the wear on tires, and the use of
rubber, would be reduced.
Have I been misinformed all these years? :-)
Both rubber and fuel were in short supply, rubber more than fuel for
much of the war. Note the figures I supplied, the civil economy had
cut consumption by 100,000 barrels per day, now think of how many
people in the US were unemployed in 1940 and how much less
economic activity there was compared with 1945. So consumption
was cut even though activity went up. Of course the US had set itself
up to need lots of private vehicle travel so there were very real limits
on what could be cut. And providing new public transport capacity
ran into wartime shortages.

There are plenty of stories of crowded trains for example.

Note there were local fuel shortages, pre war much fuel was shipped
by tanker and tankers were heavily hit when the U-boats operated off
the US coast. Pipelines were built to free the ships.

You could say rubber rationing helped save fuel, and fuel rationing
helped save rubber, while both fuel and rubber were saved by
reducing speed limits. There are certainly plenty of reports the fuel
rationing was really about saving rubber.

Effectively rubber rationing came in almost immediately, beginning
in December 1941, while civil fuel rationing started a year later. Given
civilians could not easily replace or even retread/recap old tyres and
had been only allowed to keep 5 tyres per vehicle the usage trend
should have been going down in 1942. Countering that was lots of
people suddenly had money again after years of austerity, so it is not
surprising many wanted to do the things they had been unable to do
previously, like travel. Then add the extra needs of commuting to
and from work as unemployment vanished. There are stories of
trying to stagger work times to keep traffic jams to a minimum.

The trouble is if fuel rationing was meant to save rubber the stringent
conditions for replacing tyres should have done a much better job, they
started earlier and civilians were well aware there would be little
chance of replacement for the duration of the war. So if they drove
large distances now they would soon be unable to drive, unless they
were willing to use the black market or prove they had a war related
need.

Though of course you can turn it around, with unlimited fuel there was
no signal to cut travel, and if enough people kept driving the resultant
tyre shortages would be a problem for the economy, forcing greater
civil allocations.

The third factor, which does not seem to be well covered, is how
easy it was to obtain replacement parts for civil cars, it seems there
was lots of scavenging. Then add mechanics for civil vehicle repair
work became scarcer as the war went on.

So if I had to figure out cause and effect I would say the rubber
rationing was stand alone, it was going to bite hard, but given the
human factors, the way fuel tanks empty much faster than tyres
wear out, optimism that a replacement could be found, the fuel
rationing was a good way to ensure rubber consumption was kept
down while freeing up fuel for the military. It meant less need for
increases in the oil industry from crude production through to
refinery capacity and workforce and fewer resources in keeping
the civilian vehicle fleet operating.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
GFH
2014-12-29 19:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The trouble is if fuel rationing was meant to save rubber the stringent
conditions for replacing tyres should have done a much better job, they
started earlier and civilians were well aware there would be little
chance of replacement for the duration of the war. So if they drove
large distances now they would soon be unable to drive, unless they
were willing to use the black market or prove they had a war related
need.
I remember these times. One of my relatives
ran a service station. I remember "red points" --
little round tokens given as change for red stamps
when purchasing meat.

Fuel rationing was intended to reduce wear on
tires. You assume that people would stop driving
if their tires were old and unsafe. Not going to
happen! People would drive on worn tires; tires
without any tread. Fuel rationing forced them
to reduce tire wear without increasing accidents.

At no point was the US short of oil, yet there
was rationing of heating oil. I remember being
cold and knowing that the soft coal fire did
nothing to warm the house.

A lot of rationing was intended to bring the feeling
of being at war to the home-front.

Victory gardens are another example that did nothing
for the war effort. The same supplies in the hands
of 'real' farmers would produce a lot more food.

GFH
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-12-31 18:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by GFH
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The trouble is if fuel rationing was meant to save rubber the stringent
conditions for replacing tyres should have done a much better job, they
started earlier and civilians were well aware there would be little
chance of replacement for the duration of the war. So if they drove
large distances now they would soon be unable to drive, unless they
were willing to use the black market or prove they had a war related
need.
I remember these times. One of my relatives
ran a service station. I remember "red points" --
little round tokens given as change for red stamps
when purchasing meat.
There are a number of sites giving the details.
Post by GFH
Fuel rationing was intended to reduce wear on
tires. You assume that people would stop driving
if their tires were old and unsafe. Not going to
happen! People would drive on worn tires; tires
without any tread. Fuel rationing forced them
to reduce tire wear without increasing accidents.
As noted the reality is not that simple, rubber rationing
came in earlier and was stricter. Essentially the more
fuel people had the more likely they were to drive, the more
stress that put on the system to provide maintenance and
spare parts, not just tyres. Add replacement vehicles,
note the government took control of the stock of unsold
new vehicles and spent the war rationing them out. Add
road repairs as well.

The US had been moving to private transport which
imposed a real limit on what could be cut, aggravated
by the fact new public transport capacity would need to
be built in many cases. Car pooling was considered
a novel part solution.
Post by GFH
At no point was the US short of oil, yet there
was rationing of heating oil. I remember being
cold and knowing that the soft coal fire did
nothing to warm the house.
The reality was the US was short of oil, wartime resulted in
a massive increase in use not only in the US but by the US
and allied militaries around the world, the allies needed to
prioritise or invest in more oil production and refining capacity
at a time when "everything" was required. Rationing had a
real part to play.
Post by GFH
A lot of rationing was intended to bring the feeling
of being at war to the home-front.
Actually it was designed to cope with the shortages in a fair
manor, cut civil consumption and help ease the problems of
the lack of things to buy even as more people had money.
Post by GFH
Victory gardens are another example that did nothing
for the war effort. The same supplies in the hands
of 'real' farmers would produce a lot more food.
Then you would note how much of the food supply of the
old Soviet Union was essentially local gardens, not the
collective farm system.

The world became short of food as the war went on and
it lingered until 1948, so everything helped. The real
farmers in the US were trying to increase production,
and often succeeded, the world still wanted more food
as production fell in places like Europe and Asia.

The US army cut rations to non combat troops in Europe
in early 1945 and then to the combat troops after the
Germans surrendered.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
WJHopwood
2014-12-30 01:53:00 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, December 26, 2014 11:53:57 PM UTC-5, Merlin Dorfman wrote: ..
Post by Merlin Dorfman
I've been told that gasoline rationing in the US had nothing to do
with a shortage of gasoline--there was plenty to go around. The issue
was a shortage of rubber due to Japanese capture of the Dutch East
Indies, the main source of natural rubber. By rationing gasoline, the
mileage that could be driven, and thus the wear on tires, and the use of
rubber, would be reduced.
Have I been misinformed all these years? :-)
You have not been misinformed. As I remember it,
gasoline was plentiful early in the war but distribution of it
was a problem. Nationwide rationing of it was not done for
almost a year but spot shortages did develop early on and
local rationing at different localities became necessary,.

The shortage of rubber was the main problem having to do
with gasoline rationing. In addition to rubber from the Dutch
East Indies not being available, Malaysian rubber was also
cut off and in addition to that a limited supply which came to
the U.S. from Africa was no longer available due to German
U-boat activity in the Atlantic.

Early on, the needs of the military were building up fast,
factories to produce synthetic rubber were few and far
between, and a fire at the l Firestone plant at Falls River,
Mass. was said to have reduced the national stockpile of
natural rubber by one-eighth
As the need for action to obtain more rubber for military
use being urgent, FDR appointed a committee of prominent
Americans headed by Bernard Baruch to find a way to do so.
In their report the committee wrote: "We find the existing
situation to be so dangerous that unless corrective measures
are taken immediately this country will face both military and
civilian collapse."

Three steps were recommended: Nationwide gasoline
rationing, a 35 MPH national speed limit, `and an increase in
synthetic rubber production. A government notice to the
public entitled "
Here is What You Must Do To Qualify for Gasoline and Tires"
was disseminated containing a number of requirements for
obtaining tire and gasoline rationing. Here are s few of them:
The applicant had to maintain a record of usage by tire
serial number,:There would be an inspection of one's existing
tires by a rationing agent before replacement or recap would
be authorized and then one had to wait for availability. If one
owned any tires not on a vehicle the applicant must give or sell
the unmounted tire to the Government.. A charge of 25 cents
would be made for each tire inspected. Fifty cents per tire if it
had to be removed from the wheel, if the inspector
recommended a re-cap one must have that done instead of a
new tire. Much was left to the discretion of local rationing
inspectors and Rationing Boards. Violations of any rationing
requirement could result in denial of any request by the
Rationing Board. And so on. It wasn't easy but the country
managed to live with it with very little grumbling.

WJH
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