Safe convoys for German POW's

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

Just watched a documentary that stated that a ships captain transporting
German POW's to America, fearful of being torpedoed contacted (don't
know how) the IRC in Switzerland asking them to inform Germany of the
situation in order to prevent a tragedy. Says he ordered the four ships
to turn on their lights 24 hours per day to "highlight" the prisoner
transports.

Any truth to that?

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
Just watched a documentary that stated that a ships captain transporting
German POW's to America, fearful of being torpedoed contacted (don't
know how) the IRC in Switzerland asking them to inform Germany of the
situation in order to prevent a tragedy. Says he ordered the four ships
to turn on their lights 24 hours per day to "highlight" the prisoner
transports.

Seems possible. The IRC organized the repatriation of
diplomats after 1941 declarations of war, in a single neutral
ship under the Red Cross flag.

[Mario]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
Just watched a documentary that stated that a ships captain
transporting German POW's to America, fearful of being
torpedoed contacted (don't know how) the IRC in Switzerland
asking them to inform Germany of the situation in order to
prevent a tragedy. Says he ordered the four ships to turn on
their lights 24 hours per day to "highlight" the prisoner
transports.

Seems possible. The IRC organized the repatriation of
diplomats after 1941 declarations of war, in a single neutral
ship under the Red Cross flag.

But POWs are not diplomats and the ship was not neutral.

I read stories of Italian POWs shipped to USA and they never
mention that bizarre "lighting on to be seen by enemy
submarines".

Should the Germans trust the Allied?
What if that was a trick to ship safely VIPs or important
materials?

I'd ask for more reliable sources.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Mario

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
Just watched a documentary that stated that a ships captain
transporting German POW's to America, fearful of being
torpedoed contacted (don't know how) the IRC in Switzerland
asking them to inform Germany of the situation in order to
prevent a tragedy. Says he ordered the four ships to turn on
their lights 24 hours per day to "highlight" the prisoner
transports.

Seems possible. The IRC organized the repatriation of
diplomats after 1941 declarations of war, in a single neutral
ship under the Red Cross flag.

But POWs are not diplomats and the ship was not neutral.
. . .
Should the Germans trust the Allies?
What if that was a trick to ship safely VIPs or important
materials?

It seems possible that a merchant captain could have approached
the IRC on his own initiative, even if formally prohibited by USN
and RN orders. (But we know that memories decades later
have prompted genuine participants to tell untrue stories.)

Even if the film's implication were confirmed, the event
seems unlikely to prompt suspicion of "a trick to ship safely
VIPs." VIPs traveled either by air or by warship, which
seems obviously less risky than passage in any ship
identifying itself to Axis forces. But the actual ates matters,
cf. the SS Laconia event and (earlier) orders from Doenitz
prohibiting U-boat assistance to survivors of torpedo sinking.

[WJHopwood]

"Malcom "Mal" Reynolds" wrote...

Post by Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
Just watched a documentary that stated that a ships captain transporting
German POW's to America, fearful of being torpedoed contacted (don't
know how) the IRC in Switzerland asking them to inform Germany of the
situation in order to prevent a tragedy. Says he ordered the four ships
to turn on their lights 24 hours per day to "highlight" the prisoner
transports.

Seems possible. The IRC organized the repatriation of
diplomats after 1941 declarations of war, in a single neutral
ship under the Red Cross flag.

To amplify on the above, here's some more information:

There were two diplomat and non-diplomat civilian
exchanges with Japan during WW II. The exchanges were
arranged under the auspices of the IRC through neutral
Switzerland and the neutral Swedish ship Gripsholm was
chartered for the purpose.. .

The first Gripsholm trip departed New York on June
18,1942 with 1,083 Japanese aboard, mostly diplomats and
their families, but also some Japanese businessmen, journalists,
and other Japanese who found themselves in the U.S. when
Japan attacked Pearl Harbor,.
The Gripsholm stopped in Rio de Janeiro and took on
another 417 Japanese,who had been interned by our Latin
American allies and then proceeded to the neutral port of
Lourenco Marquez (sp) in Portugese East Africa where she met
two ships from Japan, the Conte Verde and the Asama Maru
from Japan. The ships from Japan brought 1500 Americans
who had been interned by the Japanese.

An exchange then took place. The Gripsholm then
took the Americans to New York and the Japanese ships took
the Japanese to Japan. Throughout its voyage, Gripsholm had
large letters painted on its side identifying it and its mission.
These letters were lighted brightly at night and IIRC, no
dangerous situations involving the Gripsholm occurred during
either of its trips.

The second Gripsholm trip left New York on September 2,
1943 with 1,340 Japanese nationals. These were mostly
ordinary resident aliens who had requested repatriation and
had been approved by the U.S. for departure. The Department
of Justice, U.S. Enemy Alien Control Unit in conjunction with
other interested U.S. agencies did not clear all those requesting
repatriation. Japanese who were believed to have knowledge
which could have been of military use to Japan were not
granted permission to leave..

On this second trip, the Gripsholm sailed to Portuguese Goa
on India's West Coast, and there met the Japanese ship Teia
Maru which had some 1500 more American internees on board
who had been released by Japan. The second exchange was
then made, and the Gripsholm returned to the U.S. No further
such exchanges with Japan were made during the war.

An interesting footnote to that story is that among the Japanese
repatriates were several hundred infants and small children born
in the U.S.of Japanese parents, the parents being repatriated to
Japan at their own request. Such children had no legal status
and the decision that they go to Japan was legally made for them
by their Japanese parents. In an ironic twist, more than half a
century later, the U.S. Office of Redress Administration decided
that under the bizarre terms of the Civil Liberties Act of 1988
(which also made former enemy aliens and U.S.citizens who had
renounced their U.S. citizenship in wartime to fight for Japan,
eligible for reparation payments of $20,000 each and an apology
from the U.S.) This bonanza at US taxpayer expense for their
having been legally interned under both U,S, and International
law during the war.

WJH

[Michele]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
Just watched a documentary that stated that a ships captain transporting
German POW's to America, fearful of being torpedoed contacted (don't
know how) the IRC in Switzerland asking them to inform Germany of the
situation in order to prevent a tragedy. Says he ordered the four ships
to turn on their lights 24 hours per day to "highlight" the prisoner
transports.

Seems possible. The IRC organized the repatriation of
diplomats after 1941 declarations of war, in a single neutral
ship under the Red Cross flag.

Exactly. Those were diplomats and their families, and we are talking
about a very small number of trips. They were organized well in advance
and we do know that that ship did keep lights on at night, and was
painted white with great "SVERIGE" writings. Of course it did not travel
in convoy.

On the contrary we know of several instances in which POW transports
were performed exactly as any other transport of personnel - so much so
that the ships were attacked and sunk.

I'd want written documents, rather than a tale in a memoir, to believe
that a captain directly contacted the ICRC in Switzerland and arranged this.

[a425couple]

Exactly. Those were diplomats and their families, and we are talking about
a very small number of trips.

There were more 'unusual' and 'not normal' ship movements than easily
come to our minds.
http://ww2today.com/19th-october-1943-disabled-pows-repatriated-in-prisoner-exchange#sthash.ZOIQGSyG.dpuf

Oct 19 1943 Disabled PoWs repatriated in Prisoner Exchange
-- Wounded German POWs being checked aboard the hospital ship
SS TAIREA at Port Said, from where they were to sail to Barcelona
for repatriation, 18 October 1943. -
-- Trains bearing prisoners from Germany for repatriation to
Britain began arriving here from the Trelleborg ferry in the early
hours of Monday, and the transfer to the Swedish steamship
Drottningholm was made during darkness.
-- About noon the German steamships Ruegen and Meteor brought
a further 650 to the quays at Gothenburg just as the Drottningham
was pulling out
--The British steamers Empress of Russia and Atlantis reached Gothenburg
this afternoon

And, not related to POWs, do recall the large planned convoys
of equipment and supplies to Vladivestock USSR.

[Bill Shatzer]

Post by a425couple
And, not related to POWs, do recall the large planned convoys
of equipment and supplies to Vladivestock USSR.

I'm probably picking a nit but the supplies to the Soviet Union through
Vladivostok were not, if I recall correctly, convoys. Rather the ships
sailed independently and not in convoys.

The ships were all Soviet ships - although many were US vessels lend
leased to the Soviet Union and simply reflagged after transfer to the
Soviets.

There was really no need for convoys - there was no German U-boat
presence in the North Pacific and the Japanese attempted to maintain a
strict neutrality towards the Soviets and allowed the ships to pass
unhindered while the US obviously had no interest in disrupting its
supplies to the Soviets.

A few Russian cargo ships were torpedoed in error by US submarines but,
IIRC, it was a relative handful - a half dozen or fewer.

[a425couple]

Post by Bill Shatzer

Post by a425couple
And, not related to POWs, do recall the large planned convoys
of equipment and supplies to Vladivestock USSR.

I'm probably picking a nit but the supplies to the Soviet Union through
Vladivostok were not, if I recall correctly, convoys. Rather the ships
sailed independently and not in convoys.

The ships proceeded in convoy, the Japanese were informed by the
Soviet government of the size, makeup and route of the convoy.
One bit of info posted previously might provide further specifics.
(respects to original poster Keith Willshaw normally on smn)

A typical convoy left Seattle for Vladivostok in Jan 1944.
It was composed of 46 merchantmen (all 8-10K ton ships); built by
McCormack Ship Yards that were Soviet flagged and Soviet crewed.

Six of the 46 ships were loaded with ammunitions and small arms.
Four of the 46 ships were loaded with foodstuffs. Two of the
46 ships were loaded by Dodge (presumably with trucks).
One ship was loaded by Westinghouse (presumably with communications
gear).

They carried:
20,000 tons of steel provided by U.S. Steel.
3,000 truck chassis, by Ford (the Soviets also assembled U.S. trucks from
parts).
3,000 truck differentials from Thornton Tandem Co.
2,000 tractors by Allis Chalmers Co. (agricultural and military use)
1,500 automotive batteries from the Price Battery Corp.
1,000 aircraft provided by the North American Aviation Co.
612 airplanes from the Douglas Aircraft Co.
600 trucks from Mack.
500 Allison aircraft engines.
500 half-tracks from Minneapolis Moline Co.
400 airplanes from Bell Aircraft
400 electric motors from Wagner Electric Co.
400 truck chassis by GM (see Ford above)
310 tons of ball bearings from the Fafnir Company.
200 aircraft provided by the U.S. Navy
200 aircraft engines by Aeromarine
100 tractor-trailer units by GM (trucks)
70 aircraft engines by Pratt & Whitney
---(so, I count 2,200+ aircraft on this convoy
--- from Seattle,

Post by Bill Shatzer
There was really no need for convoys - -------
A few Russian cargo ships were torpedoed in error by US submarines but,
IIRC, it was a relative handful - a half dozen or fewer.

46 ships all lit up and sailing together at a set date, time & course
sure seems safer than random dribbles and drabs going through
a war zone where submarines and escorts are playing cat & mouse.

Although some certainly sailed alone. In Admiral Lockwood's
"Hellcats of the Sea" on page 246 is a case where 8 US subs
are sailing together out of the Sea of Japan, and one single
Russian ship all lit up is sailing in.

[Michael Emrys]

Post by a425couple
1,000 aircraft provided by the North American Aviation Co.

This item caught my eye. I am trying to think of what aircraft were
provided to the USSR by North American that might have required going by
ship. Anybody here know? Trainers?

Michael

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Post by a425couple
One bit of info posted previously might provide further specifics.
(respects to original poster Keith Willshaw normally on smn)
A typical convoy left Seattle for Vladivostok in Jan 1944.
It was composed of 46 merchantmen (all 8-10K ton ships); built by
McCormack Ship Yards that were Soviet flagged and Soviet crewed.

Looks like it was officially the Moore drydock in the San Francisco
area, presumably part of the Moore McCormack line, the yard built
147.2 million dollars worth of ships for the USN and 346.8 million
dollars for the Maritime Commission from 1939 to 1945.

The detailed Maritime Commission listing either misses some
ships or costs, all are dry cargo types,

68 C2-S-B1 costing 247 million dollars, 2 C3 costing 5.6 million
dollars, 3 C3-M costing 5.7 million dollars, 6 R2-S-BV1, costing
28.25 million dollars,

6 C2-S-B1 attack cargo (AKA) ships for 26.8 million dollars,
3 C2-S-B1 transport attack (APA) ships for 16.3 million dollars,
11 C3-S-A2 transport attack (APA) ships for 60.5 million dollars.
3 C2-S1-A1 hospital ships (APH) for 19.8 million dollars.

The C2-S-B1 was 9,153 deadweight or 6,232 Gross register tons.
The R2-S-BV1 was refrigerated, 8,133 DWT, 6,178 GRT.

The C2-S-B1 AKA was 7,883 DWT, 6,100 GRT
The C2-S-B1 APA was 7,540 DWT, 6,100 GRT.
The C2-S1-A1 APH was 3,649 GRT, 8,300 GRT.

All the C2 types were roughly 450 by mostly 63 feet.

There are 2 C3 cargo types listed, either 12,468 DWT, 7,819 GRT
or 11,928 and 7,886, the C3-M was 12,115 DWT, 7,773 GRT.

It looks like the Maritime Commission had 79 C2-S1-B1 built during
the war, with some 36 of the 79 were built to end 1943, so Moore was
the major builder of the type. The R2-S-BV1 were built in 1945, the
civil C3 types in 1940 and 1941, the APA version from 1943 on.

The EC2 liberty ship was shorter and had less beam than the C2
designs but came in at 10,793 DWT, 7,187 GRT.

As stated the 46 ships would have had around a nominal 400,000
tons of cargo capacity.

In long tons shipments (I presume cargo ship tonnages) not
counting aircraft flown to the destinations,

Soviet Far East 8,244,000, Soviet Arctic (via Pacific)
452,000, North Russia 3,694,000, Persian Gulf 4,160,000
and Black Sea 681,000.

Soviet ships carried 3,401,000 long tons, US ships
transferred to Soviet registry 5,367,000 tons.

By protocol period, Pacific shipments, long tons
151,298 from 22 June to 30 September 1941
235,250 from 1 October 1941 to 30 June 1942
1,623,083 from 1 July 1942 to 30 June 1943
2,589,424 from 1 July 1943 to 30 June 1944
2,716,247 from 1 July 1944 to 12 May 1945
1,349,873 from 13 May to 2 September 1945.

Post by a425couple
Six of the 46 ships were loaded with ammunitions and small arms. Four of
the 46 ships were loaded with foodstuffs. Two of the 46 ships were loaded
by Dodge (presumably with trucks). One ship was loaded by Westinghouse
(presumably with communications gear).
20,000 tons of steel provided by U.S. Steel.
3,000 truck chassis, by Ford (the Soviets also assembled U.S. trucks from
parts).

No mention in the US Lend-Lease report of truck chassis, but that could
simply be trucks being shipped crated. 437,039 trucks and jeeps sent.

Post by a425couple
3,000 truck differentials from Thornton Tandem Co.
2,000 tractors by Allis Chalmers Co. (agricultural and military use)

The US Lend-Lease report says 1,941 Truck-tractors, and 8,074
track laying tractors sent for the war.

Post by a425couple
1,500 automotive batteries from the Price Battery Corp.
1,000 aircraft provided by the North American Aviation Co.

The US reports North American aircraft sent to the USSR (and arrived)
were 28 AT6-C (8 to North Russia, 20 via Abadan in the Persian Gulf),
and 54 AT6-F via the ALSIB air route, 733 B-25 via ALSIB, 5 to North
Russia, 124 via Abadan.

Losses of aircraft allocated to the USSR were 91 in the US, 59 in
Canada and Alaska, 310 via North Russia and 274 via Abadan.

Post by a425couple
612 airplanes from the Douglas Aircraft Co.

Douglas aircraft arrivals in the USSR were 707 C-47 and 1,363 A-20
via ALSIB, 126 A-20 via North Russia, 1,419 A-20 via Abadan.

Post by a425couple
600 trucks from Mack.
500 Allison aircraft engines.
500 half-tracks from Minneapolis Moline Co.

Total shipments of half tracks for the war were 1,158.

Post by a425couple
400 airplanes from Bell Aircraft

Bell aircraft arrivals in the USSR 4,746 P-39, of these 2,618 via
ALSIB, 108 via North Russia and 2,020 via Abadan, along with
2,397 P-63 via ALSIB and 3 via North Russia.

Post by a425couple
400 electric motors from Wagner Electric Co.
400 truck chassis by GM (see Ford above)
310 tons of ball bearings from the Fafnir Company.
200 aircraft provided by the U.S. Navy

US Navy types sent were 185 PBY/PBN.

Post by a425couple
200 aircraft engines by Aeromarine

No aircraft engine manufacturer by this name in the
War Production Board report.

Post by a425couple
100 tractor-trailer units by GM (trucks)
70 aircraft engines by Pratt & Whitney
---(so, I count 2,200+ aircraft on this convoy
--- from Seattle,

Which, if correct would amount to around a seventh of
the 14,797 USAAF and 185 USN aircraft sent, this total
does include 1,622 P-39, 49 P-40 and 88 P-63 on "British
account" but not any other aircraft for Britain redirected
to the USSR.

Sometimes the reports are in tons, rather than number of
aircraft, trucks etc.

It does not look like any aircraft were shipped via the Pacific
and generally weapons were not shipped via the Pacific, to
reduce the chances the Japanese would intervene.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

Post by Bill Shatzer

Post by a425couple
And, not related to POWs, do recall the large planned convoys
of equipment and supplies to Vladivestock USSR.

I'm probably picking a nit but the supplies to the Soviet Union through
Vladivostok were not, if I recall correctly, convoys. Rather the ships
sailed independently and not in convoys.
The ships were all Soviet ships - although many were US vessels lend
leased to the Soviet Union and simply reflagged after transfer to the
Soviets.
There was really no need for convoys - there was no German U-boat
presence in the North Pacific and the Japanese attempted to maintain a
strict neutrality towards the Soviets and allowed the ships to pass
unhindered while the US obviously had no interest in disrupting its
supplies to the Soviets.
A few Russian cargo ships were torpedoed in error by US submarines but,
IIRC, it was a relative handful - a half dozen or fewer.

About 1400 merchant ships delivered essential supplies to the Soviet
Union under the Lend-Lease program, escorted by ships of the Royal Navy,
Royal Canadian Navy, and the U.S. Navy. Eighty-five merchant vessels and
16 Royal Navy warships (two cruisers, six destroyers, eight other escort
ships) were lost. Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine lost a number of vessels
including one battleship, three destroyers and at least 30 U-boats as
well as a large number of aircraft.

[Michael Emrys]

Post by Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
About 1400 merchant ships delivered essential supplies to the Soviet
Union under the Lend-Lease program...

Is that total for the entire program or just the Murmansk/
Archangel run? If you include the number going to the Persian Corridor,
Vladivostok, and eventually Odessa, the number quoted seems much too low.

Michael

[a425couple]

Post by a425couple

Post by Michele
Exactly. Those were diplomats and their families, and we are talking
about a very small number of trips.

There were more 'unusual' and 'not normal' ship movements than easily
come to our minds.

Here is another:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Awa_Maru_%281942%29
"In 1945 the Awa Maru was employed as a Red Cross relief ship,
carrying vital supplies to American and Allied prisoners of war (POWs)
in Japanese custody. Under the Relief for POWs agreement, she was
supposed to be given safe passage by Allied forces, and Allied commanders
issued orders to that effect.[1]
Having delivered her supplies, Awa Maru took on several hundred stranded
merchant marine officers, military personnel, diplomats and civilians at
Singapore. -------
The ship departed Singapore on March 28, but on April 1 was intercepted
late at night in the Taiwan Strait by the American submarine USS Queenfish
(SS-393), which mistook her for a destroyer. The Awa Maru was sailing
as a hospital ship under the protection of the Red Cross, ---
The torpedoes of the Queenfish sank the ship. Only one of the 2,004
passengers and crew, Kantora Shimoda, survived----
Commander Loughlin was found guilty of negligence, and the U.S. Govt.
offered, via neutral Switzerland to replace the Awa Maru with a similar
ship."

[David Wilma]

I watched an interview of a German POW who told of his voyage
in a merchantman headed west. The POWs were informed that
the POW ships were placed at the edge of the convoys and that
the Germans were somehow notified of this placement.

The POWs response was, "smart."

Again this is what they men locked in the hold were told and
it might all be apocryphal.

[WJHopwood]

Post by David Wilma
I watched an interview of a German POW who told of his voyage
in a merchantman headed west. The POWs were informed that
the POW ships were placed at the edge of the convoys and that
the Germans were somehow notified of this placement.
The POWs response was, "smart."
Again this is what they men locked in the hold were told and
it might all be apocryphal.

Maybe not so hard to believe. In his very interesting and
comprehensive 1979 book on the subject of Axis POWs,"Nazi
Prisoners of War in America," Dr. Arnold Krammer, professor
of history at Texas A&M, noted that 400,000 German and
50,000 Italian POWs were transported to the United States
on ships in convoy and that not one ship was ever attacked.

The POWs were sent to the U.S. between the years 1942 and
1946. Many of the Germans were veterans of the Afrika Korps
and were held in 511 POW camps scattered across the U.S.
He points out that the U.S. was meticulous in holding to the
Geneva Conventions on treatment of the POWs but that there
some problems such as isolated episodes of escapes,
"Naziism" in the camps,kangaroo courts, and a few murders
among the prisoners.

However, on the beneficial side POWs became a good supply
of replacement workers for U.S,men serving in the armed forces.
by helping where there were labor shortages in farming, road
work, lumber production, and many other areas.

WJH

[Michele]

Post by WJHopwood
Maybe not so hard to believe. In his very interesting and
comprehensive 1979 book on the subject of Axis POWs,"Nazi
Prisoners of War in America," Dr. Arnold Krammer, professor
of history at Texas A&M, noted that 400,000 German and
50,000 Italian POWs were transported to the United States
on ships in convoy and that not one ship was ever attacked.

That would sound more convincing if the convoys which these ships were
part of were not attacked, too. Is that the case?
As to ships not in convoy, even a short search tells us that the Germans
sank the Arandora Star, the Empress of Canada, the Nova Scotia (albeit
the latter not in the Atlantic), all with POWs aboard.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Michele
That would sound more convincing if the convoys which these ships were
part of were not attacked, too. Is that the case?

Possibly. US forces didn't capture many POWs
until mid-1943, by which time the U-boat
menace was largely broken.

Post by Michele
As to ships not in convoy, even a short search tells us that the Germans
sank the Arandora Star, the Empress of Canada, the Nova Scotia (albeit
the latter not in the Atlantic), all with POWs aboard.

_Arandora Star_ was sunk on 1 July 1940, while en
route to Canada, not the U.S.

_Empress of Canada_ was sunk on 13 March 1943,
by the Italian sub _Leonardo Da Vinci_, not by
a German U-boat. Also, she was sunk in the
South Atlantic, en route from South Africa to
Ghana. (This part is confusing. Why were Axis
prisoners being transported from South Africa
to West Africa? _Empress of Canada_ was sunk
at 01-13S 09-57W, which is south of Liberia
and about 700 km west of Ghana.)

_Nova Scotia_ was sunk in the Indian Ocean,
en route to South Africa.

_Shuntien_ was sunk in the Mediterranean with
Italiam PoWs on board, en route from Tobruk
to Alexandria. Nearly all the survivors
were killed when HMS SALVIA was also sunk.

[Michele]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by Michele
As to ships not in convoy, even a short search tells us that the Germans
sank the Arandora Star, the Empress of Canada, the Nova Scotia (albeit
the latter not in the Atlantic), all with POWs aboard.

_Arandora Star_
_Empress of Canada_
_Nova Scotia_
_Shuntien_

The general point is that Allied ships carrying POWs were not exempt
from attacks by Axis forces - just like vice versa.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

Post by WJHopwood

Post by David Wilma
I watched an interview of a German POW who told of his voyage
in a merchantman headed west. The POWs were informed that
the POW ships were placed at the edge of the convoys and that
the Germans were somehow notified of this placement.
The POWs response was, "smart."
Again this is what they men locked in the hold were told and
it might all be apocryphal.

Maybe not so hard to believe. In his very interesting and
comprehensive 1979 book on the subject of Axis POWs,"Nazi
Prisoners of War in America," Dr. Arnold Krammer, professor
of history at Texas A&M, noted that 400,000 German and
50,000 Italian POWs were transported to the United States
on ships in convoy and that not one ship was ever attacked.
The POWs were sent to the U.S. between the years 1942 and
1946. Many of the Germans were veterans of the Afrika Korps
and were held in 511 POW camps scattered across the U.S.
He points out that the U.S. was meticulous in holding to the
Geneva Conventions on treatment of the POWs but that there
some problems such as isolated episodes of escapes,
"Naziism" in the camps,kangaroo courts, and a few murders
among the prisoners.
However, on the beneficial side POWs became a good supply
of replacement workers for U.S,men serving in the armed forces.
by helping where there were labor shortages in farming, road
work, lumber production, and many other areas.
WJH

The story I watched said that upon repatriation on 7 German POWs were
unaccounted for

[WJHopwood]

On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 2:26:42 PM UTC-5, Malcom

Post by Malcom "Mal" Reynolds

..... In his...1979 book on the subject of Axis POWs,"Nazi
Prisoners of War in America," Dr. Arnold Krammer, professor
of history at Texas A&M, noted that 400,000 German and
50,000 Italian POWs were transported to the United States
..... between the years 1942 and 1946.....

The story I watched said that upon repatriation on 7 German
POWs were unaccounted for

Could be, but of the some 400,000 POWs only 7 being
unaccounted for several years later (.0000175 of the total)
seems hard to believe in view of the vast administrative
POW record-keeping problems faced by the Army.

For what it's worth, on page 295 of his book I referenced
above, Professor Krammer wrote (without saying how many)
that there had been some POW exchanges between Germany
and the U.S.,during the war, mostly for special reasons, illness
being one. He also wrote that when the Army announced the
departure of the last group of German prisoners in the United
States in July of 1946 (1,388 of them) that: .
"With the exception of 141 men who were serving
prison terms, 134 in hospitals or psychiatric wards, and 25
escapees, America's first experience in maintaining nearly
40,000 foreign prisoners of war on its soil, was, indeed over."

WJH

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

Post by WJHopwood
On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 2:26:42 PM UTC-5, Malcom

Post by Malcom "Mal" Reynolds

..... In his...1979 book on the subject of Axis POWs,"Nazi
Prisoners of War in America," Dr. Arnold Krammer, professor
of history at Texas A&M, noted that 400,000 German and
50,000 Italian POWs were transported to the United States
..... between the years 1942 and 1946.....

The story I watched said that upon repatriation on 7 German
POWs were unaccounted for

Could be, but of the some 400,000 POWs only 7 being
unaccounted for several years later (.0000175 of the total)
seems hard to believe in view of the vast administrative
POW record-keeping problems faced by the Army.
For what it's worth, on page 295 of his book I referenced
above, Professor Krammer wrote (without saying how many)
that there had been some POW exchanges between Germany
and the U.S.,during the war, mostly for special reasons, illness
being one. He also wrote that when the Army announced the
departure of the last group of German prisoners in the United
States in July of 1946 (1,388 of them) that: .
"With the exception of 141 men who were serving
prison terms, 134 in hospitals or psychiatric wards, and 25
escapees, America's first experience in maintaining nearly
40,000 foreign prisoners of war on its soil, was, indeed over."
WJH

I'm wondering if there is a difference between known escapees and those
last 7 surprises