Submarines and cleanliness

[SolomonW]

WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.

I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing.

Did they get used to it? How did the sailors feel about it? What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

[Scott M. Kozel]

Post by SolomonW
WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.
I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing.
Did they get used to it? How did the sailors feel about it? What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

Even more importantly, how did they keep all the sailors healthy enough
to perform their demanding jobs?

That would be a target-rich environment for all kinds of illnesses,
sicknesses and diseases, and they would often be several weeks away from
any kind of hospital-quality medical attention.

[SolomonW]

Post by Scott M. Kozel
That would be a target-rich environment for all kinds of illnesses,
sicknesses and diseases, and they would often be several weeks away from
any kind of hospital-quality medical attention.

Indeed. in a German U-boat often they did not have a medical officer, one
person was given some additional medical training.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by SolomonW
Indeed. in a German U-boat often they did not have a medical officer, one
person was given some additional medical training.

This was normal for the WW2 period in the USN and RN
no less than the KM. As small warships (cf. destroyers
and frigates) submarine crews were not large enough to
warrant a qualified MD as MO. Navy trades included the
specialization of Pharmacist's Mate, trained in first aid
and nursing duties. Submarines carried none of these
either, only individuals whose captains may have sent
them on first aid courses. As in destroyers, etc., the
captain had personal charge of a drugs cabinet and surgical
instruments.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places. I can remember
reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing. Did they get used to it? How did the sailors
feel about it? What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

Even more importantly, how did they keep all the sailors healthy enough to
perform their demanding jobs?

With great difficulty, that is why for example crews would be allowed
to go swimming for example, even catch fish, to get them out of the hull
and into the sun, plus exercise. The early to mid war U-boats did this.

Later on it was simply too dangerous for the U-boats to try this, and
there are reports of sickness in engine room personnel because of the
air they were continually breathing.

That would be a target-rich environment for all kinds of illnesses,
sicknesses and diseases, and they would often be several weeks away from
any kind of hospital-quality medical attention.

The contagious stuff would generally be caught early, after that comes
the group caused by lack of sunlight, poor hygiene etc. Also the small
number of people present tends to reduce the number of diseases
that could be present and spread through the crew.

When the Germans came up with the U tanker idea they included a
doctor with good medical facilities as part of the crew, along with a
bakery for example. The tanker also used its crew members to
replace sick or injured crew from the normal U-boats. It seems on
average 2 to 4 men were exchanged per U tanker voyage. I am
unsure on the average number of U-boats encountered per voyage,
the tankers would respond to medical emergencies as well as
providing supplies, so say 12 or more encounters per voyage.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by SolomonW
WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.
I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing.
Did they get used to it?

Sure. It wasn't as bad as, say, being out
in the desert where there was barely enough
water to _drink_, or thigh-deep in the mud
of a rain-soaked jungle, or on an 18th-century
sailing ship. (In the Royal Navy,it was
customary to give a biscuit a sharp rap before
eating it, to drive out the weevils.

Post by SolomonW
How did the sailors feel about it?

"When you can smell someone standing behind
you, and there's no one there, it's time
to take a shower."

Post by SolomonW
What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

The water shortage on submarines continued
into the 1980s, if not to this day. In Tom
Clancy's novel _The Hunt For Red October_,
when Jones, the genius sonarman, identifies
RED OCTOBER's propulsion noise, Captain
Mancuso rewards him with a promotion and a
"Hollywood Shower" - that is, a shower longer
than three minutes.

[Padraigh ProAmerica]

It wasn't that bad on US fleet boats. Food supplies were largely fresh
(eaten as soon as possible); then mainly canned and/or dehydrated. Since
these boats had ovens, bread was baked as needed.

Later marks had Kleinschmidt stills, capble of providing almost-adequate
supplies of fresh water- enough so the crew had access to clothes
washing and a weekly shower.

When British submarines arrived in SoWesPac starting in 1944, American
officers were shocked at the dilapidated- and filthy- conditions. It
often tok weeks to bring these boats up to aceptable operating
conditions.

"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and let them
surprise you with their ingenuity."
Gen. George S. Patton

[Don Phillipson]

Post by SolomonW
WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.

Conditions aboard WW2 submarines were not much changed
from WW1. Conditions did not improve until the new technologies
of the 1960s (e.g. electro-mechanical controls instead of all-
mechanical linkages) permitted more space for men because
the machinery needed less.

Post by SolomonW
I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing.
Did they get used to it? How did the sailors feel about it?

1. Conditions in British boats were not much different.
(US boats were mostly larger.) In each navy although
disciplinary rules for submariners were specially relaxed
at sea (e.g. uniform dress, shaving, etc.) traditional
discipline was the main instrument (a) to prevent dirt-
related impediments to efficient operation, (b) to maintain
crew morale and thus efficiency.
2. The most obvious feature of the KM U-boat service
is that although not all volunteers (as in the RN and USN)
the men maintained extroardinarily good morale and operational
efficiency despite (by 1945) the worst casualties of any
combat service.

[SolomonW]

Post by Don Phillipson
In each navy although
disciplinary rules for submariners were specially relaxed
at sea (e.g. uniform dress, shaving, etc.) traditional
discipline was the main instrument (a) to prevent dirt-
related impediments to efficient operation, (b) to maintain
crew morale and thus efficiency.

Ever seen a file Das Boot? I doubt this was true for the German U-boats

Here is a comment from the uboat.net

http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,39231,39275


The medical problems that had to be dealt with at sea at that time were
pretty basic. They included bad cuts and broken bones from being slammed
against things when the boat was thrown around by depth charges or from
trying to do things on the run during emergencies or drills etc., various
infections & ear problems (from the environmental conditions & pressure
changes inside the boat) as well as all manner of skin problems from the
wet, clammy environment inside a U-boat. Hygiene was almost nonexistent as
there wasn’t enough fresh water to permit bathing though salt water showers
were sometimes available from time to time and sometimes the crew was
actually allowed to go for a swim. Being dirty all of the time had to add
to the rate of infections. The confined conditions all of those men lived
and worked in and the fact that the men had to hot bunk accelerated the
rate that contagious things (like lice or a virus) spread. There were also
the normal dental problems (broken/infected teeth, etc.) to be dealt with.

That is not to say that serious illness and injuries didn’t happen aboard
U-boats at this time because they did. Sometimes the radio operators even
had to perform operations. They had the book, their training (which was a
bit more than just first aid but not as extensive as a paramedic would
receive today – much less a doctor) and perhaps the help of a doctor on the
radio – and a prayer. Going into combat without proper on the spot medical
care was just one of the dangers faced by the U-boat men.

The food could also cause medical problems. It was better and more
nutritious and vitamin filled than the food available elsewhere in Germany
at the beginning of a patrol but as the patrol wore on the fresh food grew
moldy and was consumed (generally in the first 2 weeks) leaving canned food
as the only alternative. In time the lack of fresh food took its toll.
There were some vitamin pills available (I don’t know the extent) but
that’s about it.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by SolomonW

Post by Don Phillipson
In each navy although
disciplinary rules for submariners were specially relaxed
at sea (e.g. uniform dress, shaving, etc.) traditional
discipline was the main instrument (a) to prevent dirt-
related impediments to efficient operation, (b) to maintain
crew morale and thus efficiency.

Ever seen a file Das Boot? I doubt this was true for the German U-boats
Here is a comment from the uboat.net
http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,39231,39275
. . . Hygiene was almost nonexistent as
there wasn¡Št enough fresh water to permit bathing though salt water

showers

Post by SolomonW
were sometimes available . . . Being dirty all of the time had to add
to the rate of infections. The confined conditions all of those men lived
and worked in and the fact that the men had to hot bunk accelerated the
rate that contagious things (like lice or a virus) spread.

These are the only references to dirt on this web page: and
appear to be the poster's guess rather than direct observation
or citation (no doubt available in medical reports from U-boat
bases.)

The German movie Das Boot appears to endorse the opinion
quoted above: that sailors' conditions on patrol were dirty
and squalid; that naval discipline was relaxed underwater to
make room for personal feelings and private comfort wherever
possible, but reinforced for naval duties, viz. staying alive
and sinking enemy ships. The film portrayed both the
extreme danger and discomfort of U-boat operations and
the importance of crew morale in carrying out duties.

[SolomonW]

Post by SolomonW

Post by SolomonW

Post by Don Phillipson
In each navy although
disciplinary rules for submariners were specially relaxed
at sea (e.g. uniform dress, shaving, etc.) traditional
discipline was the main instrument (a) to prevent dirt-
related impediments to efficient operation, (b) to maintain
crew morale and thus efficiency.

Ever seen a file Das Boot? I doubt this was true for the German U-boats
Here is a comment from the uboat.net
http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,39231,39275
. . . Hygiene was almost nonexistent as
there wasn¡¦t enough fresh water to permit bathing though salt water

showers

Post by SolomonW
were sometimes available . . . Being dirty all of the time had to add
to the rate of infections. The confined conditions all of those men lived
and worked in and the fact that the men had to hot bunk accelerated the
rate that contagious things (like lice or a virus) spread.

These are the only references to dirt on this web page: and
appear to be the poster's guess rather than direct observation
or citation (no doubt available in medical reports from U-boat
bases.)
The German movie Das Boot appears to endorse the opinion
quoted above: that sailors' conditions on patrol were dirty
and squalid; that naval discipline was relaxed underwater to
make room for personal feelings and private comfort wherever
possible, but reinforced for naval duties, viz. staying alive
and sinking enemy ships. The film portrayed both the
extreme danger and discomfort of U-boat operations and
the importance of crew morale in carrying out duties.

I take exception to the word **appears**

I do not think that if it is a guess that it is unreasonable. In a small
environment with many people filled with oil, without access to clean
clothes or washing facilities for months sharing air, food and water.

If you look at photographs of German sailors leaving on a U-boat and coming
back you can see the difference. They start off cleanly shaven in clean
clothes. They come back with long beards and soiled uniforms.


Here is a selection of quotes from this webpage which unfortunately does
not list sources but sounds right.

http://www.uboataces.com/articles-life-uboat.shtml

No other vessel of war presented poorer living conditions than that of a
U-boat. Each war patrol could take anywhere between three weeks to six
months. During this time, U-boat crews were not able to bathe, shave or
change their clothes. Its not difficult to imagine how unpleasant life
would be for someone who had not taken a bath or had a change of clothing
for six months.

Crew habitability ranked very low on the priority list of German U-boats.
Fresh water was limited and strictly rationed for drinking, especially when
they had opted to fill one of their water tanks with diesel fuel to extend
their operational range. Washing and showering were not permitted, with all
activities of shaving, laundry being postponed throughout the entire
duration of the patrol. They were allowed only the clothes on their backs
and a single change of underwear and socks.

Very soon, fresh loaves of bread would sprout white fungi, which the crews
promptly nicknamed as "Rabbits", due to the white fuzzy appearance. By that
time, food consisted mainly of canned goods supplemented by a soy based
filler called Bratlingspulver. Issued by the military for U-boat crews, the
crew unkindly referred to it as "diesel food", due to the constant exposure
of diesel exhaust that surrounded them.

With forty to fifty crews sharing the same single toilet, unpleasant
emergency situations were sure to occur.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by SolomonW
Crew habitability ranked very low on the priority list of German U-boats.
. . . They were allowed only the clothes on their backs
and a single change of underwear and socks.

This seems unbelievable: what evidence suggests it?
(Cf. army experience with feet, viz. that neglected feet
can alone render a man unfit for duty.) It is very hard
to believe the KM recommended or enforced that each
man in a submarine was allowed only two pairs of socks
and not three or four.

[SolomonW]

Post by Don Phillipson
This seems unbelievable: what evidence suggests it?
(Cf. army experience with feet, viz. that neglected feet
can alone render a man unfit for duty.) It is very hard
to believe the KM recommended or enforced that each
man in a submarine was allowed only two pairs of socks
and not three or four.

I can understand your concerns. I suffer very much with even with
yesterday's socks.

I could not tell you the details you ask for, and maybe it would vary
depending on the U-boat but I am sure that those u-boats would have been an
extremely unhygienic place. There are 50 men, in a small place. all
breathing in and out the same air none of it fresh air. No sunlight. Air
pressure going up and down. Little washing facilities. It is very damp.
Clothes quickly became wet with seawater and oil. Everywhere was damp. Food
was frequently reported as having mould. Beds are shared. Plenty of lice.
Few changes of clothing. It must have been a germ heaven.

[Scott M. Kozel]

Post by SolomonW
I could not tell you the details you ask for, and maybe it would vary
depending on the U-boat but I am sure that those u-boats would have been an
extremely unhygienic place. There are 50 men, in a small place. all
breathing in and out the same air none of it fresh air. No sunlight. Air
pressure going up and down. Little washing facilities. It is very damp.
Clothes quickly became wet with seawater and oil. Everywhere was damp. Food
was frequently reported as having mould. Beds are shared. Plenty of lice.
Few changes of clothing. It must have been a germ heaven.

What would they do in the case of someone with a contagious and lethal
disease, and not within a day or two of port or supply ship?

Unless they could find a way to cure him, I guess they would have to
pitch him overboard.

Even in the case of a lessor contagion like a puking flu, they would
have a huge mess that would impair operational readiness.

[Dave]

Post by Scott M. Kozel
What would they do in the case of someone with a contagious and lethal
disease, and not within a day or two of port or supply ship?
Unless they could find a way to cure him, I guess they would have to
pitch him overboard.

I cannot imagine what contagious disease would justify a captian
having a victim thrown overboard. "Next man that gets sick goes
overboard!" would be a morale breaker. And what lethal disease would
present itself at sea in such a way as to justify even turning back?

Probably the contagious diseases that presented the biggest threats,
if only psychologically, were venereal strains.

[David H Thornley]

Post by Scott M. Kozel
What would they do in the case of someone with a contagious and lethal
disease, and not within a day or two of port or supply ship?

One advantage of being on a ship on a long cruise is that contagious
diseases are likely to die out fairly fast, since there isn't a large
pool of potential victims.

[pbromaghin]

Post by Scott M. Kozel
What would they do in the case of someone with a contagious and lethal
disease, and not within a day or two of port or supply ship?

I would think that any contagious diseases would appear soon after
leaving port. They do not just lie dormant within a person for a long
period of time before becoming symptomatic and contagious. Once out
of sight of land there would generally be no opportunity for new
diseases to be introduced to the crew.

[Bill Shatzer]

Post by SolomonW
WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.
I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing.
Did they get used to it? How did the sailors feel about it? What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

US Submarines had a couple advantages in the cleanliness department.

First they were air conditioned - which made a world of difference while
running on the surface, especially in the tropics.

Secondly, they had water distillation units capable of producing up to
1,000 gallons of fresh water a day. Some that was needed for the
batteries but most was available for cooking, drinking, and general
hygene. I believe the SOP on WW2 US fleet submarines was that every crew
member got a shower twice a week. A "Navy shower" to be sure - wetting
down, lathering up, and quick rinse - but enough to keep the "ripeness"
level considerably below that experienced by the U-boat crews.

[Padraigh ProAmerica]

US subs also didn't carry doctors. but did have a well-trained
Pharmacists Mate. Training level was somewhere betwen advanced first aid
and some nursing ability. There were at least four appendectomies
performed on US subs- to the absolute horror of the naval meical
establishment.

The first of these was performed on seaman Darryl Rector by PM Waren
Lipes on USS SEADRAGON while on patrol of French Indo-China; Rector
survived. After the war Lipes went to Medical School on the Navy's dime
and eventualy retired as a LT CMDR.

Lipes was recently awarded a Navy Commendation Medal for his emergency
surgery.

"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and let them
surprise you with their ingenuity."
Gen. George S. Patton

[Tero P. Mustalahti]

Post by SolomonW
WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.
I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing.
Did they get used to it? How did the sailors feel about it? What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

Well, probably it felt pretty good. Being dirty was not limited to
U-boat or submarine crews, though. While the crews on larger surface
vessels usually had a reasonable hygiene level, ordinary infantry often
went for weeks and months without a shower or bath. It was not uncommon
in all armies (including even the US army) that you could not change or
wash your underwear for several weeks, let alone other clothes. In fact
it was fairly typical while advancing or retreating.

Personal hygiene and clean clothing was on the last places of a very
long Quartermaster's "to do" list. Food, ammunition, tobacco, general
equipment maintenance and even mail came before them. So typically you
had time for such things only when your unit was not in combat duty or
at least in well-established fortified positions, which were not as
common in WW2 as in WW1.


Tero P. Mustalahti

[Dave]

Maybe we should draw a distinction between cleanliness and personal
hygiene. I should think that the demand of seafaring and warfare would
demand a high level of cleanliness as to equipment and the vessel with
personal hygiene taking second place. Keeping up on cleanliness
accomplishes several things, it maintains gear on a wartime footing,
it keeps the men busy, and it maintains a sense of discipline. They
might not be able to wash, but the torpedoes and other tools of war
had to be in top shape.

[binnacle]

Post by SolomonW
WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.
I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing.
Did they get used to it? How did the sailors feel about it? What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

I understand that latterly in the war the British Admiralty were
aware of the lowering
level of morale among Uboat crews by the increasing evidence of
untidiness and lower
hygiene standards observed in captured submarines. Eavesdropped
conversations of
submarine POWs confirmed this.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Post by SolomonW
WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.

Basically correct, the US submarines were the best the IJN ones
were probably the worst, though doing things like pushing patrol
limits usually made things bad no matter whose navy it was.

Also try very wet.

Post by SolomonW
I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy
food, dirt and insufficient washing.

Correct, note a damp cloth can give a person a basic wash using
very little water.

It seems the U-boats had two toilets, one for the officers and one
for the men but often one toilet was used for supplies.

Also one British boarding party noted the smell, including the
buckets of excrement, some of which had joined the general
fluids floating around the sinking u-boat.

Post by SolomonW
Did they get used to it?

The human animal is very adaptable.

Post by SolomonW
How did the sailors feel about it?

The usual mixture of resentment at having to do it and pride for
surviving it.

Post by SolomonW
What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

The crews were generally put in an area with all luxuries and somewhere
between relaxed and almost zero military discipline so they could recover.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Padraigh ProAmerica]

There were also what you might term cultural differences involved.

Originally designed to act as scouts for the fleet, US fleet boats were
almost perfectly designed for the long-range patrols they ended up
doing.

The US Navy had a fetish for cleanliness by this time; fleet subs had
enough room to allow for better hygine.

Discipline was somewhat looser, but there was no doubt you were on a US
Navy man-o-war.

Other navies had other priorities. He German U-Boats were smaller, more
cramped and designed for shorter patrol runs, for example.

"To be forced to believe only one conclusion- that everything in the
universe happened by chance- would violate the very objectivity of
science itself."
Dr. Wernher von Braun

[Tero P. Mustalahti]

Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
Other navies had other priorities. He German U-Boats were smaller, more
cramped and designed for shorter patrol runs, for example.

In fact the Germans had two major U-boat types: Type VII, which was
originally designed for relatively short North Atlantic and North Sea
patrols and the considerably larger Type IX, which was the long range
boat. However, practice showed that the Type IX dived too slowly and was
a much bigger target on the surface, so the small Type VII ended up
doing most Atlantic patrols after 1940.

Type IX experienced a small renaissance after the US joined the war and
many were operated successfully against single ships close to the US
coast, but once the US fully adopted convoy system the use of the Type
IX was mostly limited to the southern Atlantic and the Indian Ocean,
which were simply too far away for the Type VII and the threat of Allied
air attacks was not as great there.


Tero P. Mustalahti

[Musicman59]

Post by SolomonW
WW2 submarines were extremely dirty and filthy places.
I can remember reading of German U-boats with problems of moldy food, dirt
and insufficient washing.
Did they get used to it? How did the sailors feel about it? What did they
think when they came to base and could have a bath?

Wasn't there some kind of bonus pay for US submariners? These posts
could explain why...

Craig

[Padraigh ProAmerica]

US submariners (all volunteers), shortly after the start of the war
began receiving Hazardous Duty Pay. I believe it was a 50% increase.

"To be forced to believe only one conclusion- that everything in the
universe happened by chance- would violate the very objectivity of
science itself."
Dr. Wernher von Braun