Discussion:
Allied codes
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Padraigh ProAmerica
2013-02-03 04:46:58 UTC
Permalink
WE know how the Allies penetrated the major Axis codes like Germany's
ENIGMA and the various Japanese codes- but did the Axis ever penetrate
any major Allied codes?

--
"A man who can own a gun is a citizen. A man who cannot own a gun is a
subject."--

LTC Allen West, USA, (Ret.)
Bill Shatzer
2013-02-03 05:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
WE know how the Allies penetrated the major Axis codes like Germany's
ENIGMA and the various Japanese codes- but did the Axis ever penetrate
any major Allied codes?
This seems generally accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_code_breaking_in_World_War_II
w***@aol.com
2013-02-03 21:31:53 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 2, 11:46 pm, Padraigh ProAmerica)
Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
WE know how the Allies penetrated the major
Axis codes like Germany's ENIGMA and the
various Japanese codes- but did the Axis ever
penetrate any major Allied codes?
The answer is "yes," on a number of occasions.
German Army cryptanalysts solved the U.S. M-209
ode when the two armies fought in North Africa in
1942 giving the Germans a fairly good idea of the
plans and condition of the troops they faced. Again,
at the time of the USAAF raid on the Ploesti oil fields,
in order to avoid a shoot-down of the U.S. Liberators
by friendly ground fire, the USAAF sent a message
advising allied ground units in the area of the U.S.
bombing mission.
The message was send in the U.S. system known
as "Syco" which was fast and simple to use but which
the Germans were able to break into plain text only a
short time after the 178 Liberators had departed from
Bengazi. The result was unusually heavy flak over
Rumania which caused the loss of 53 American planes
with large American loss of life.
On another occasion, a German merchant raider, in
the Indian Ocean,the "Atlantis," captured a Btitish ship
and a boarding party was able to obtain some of the
Admiralty's non-current encipherment tables of the
broadcasting code to Allied Merchant Ships called the
"BAMS" code, which, although not the current tables,
enabled the Germans by crytanalytic efforts to break into
current messages, locate Allied ship routes, and wait for
victims at locations which could be determined in
advance from the intercepts.
Germans were also able to break into some Atlantic
convoy messages from the British Commander of Western
Approaches which enabled U-Boats to be effectively
employed.
Italy also had considerable success in breaking into
British Naval codes in 1942. British Admiral Cunningham
was so frustrated that after the invasion of Crete he
threatened to send his messages in the "clear" unless he
was given better cipher systems. Italy also had one other
success which Kahn, in his book "The Codebreakers" called
"probably the greatest Axis communications-intelligence
result of the war," the obtaining of the secret U.S. "BLACK"
code tables by an employee of rhe U.S. Embassy in Rome
who broke into a safe and photographed them in the office
of the U.S. military attache in August of 1941, before the U.S.
had entered the war.
One result was that Italy passed the U.S.BLACK code to
Germany, the German high command passed information
obtained from it to Rommel and Rommel was able to obrain
volumes of highly valuable military information about the British
campaign which was being transmitted to Washington by the
U.S. military attache in Cairo.
All the above were Axis successes by Germany and
Italy. but in the Pacific the Japanese had little if any success
breaking Allied codes. On the other hand, the U.S.was reading Japanese
diplomatic codes beginning in the 1940's, throughout
the war, and even after the war. Also Japanese Naval codes to
a considerable extent throughout the war.
An excellent source of information on the above (and
more) is David Kahn's "The codebreakers" which is a
voluminous volume consisting of over 1100 pages tracing the
history of secret communications from ancient times to the dawn
of the space age.

WJH
Padraigh ProAmerica
2013-02-04 05:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Re: Allied codes

Group: soc.history.war.world-war-ii Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2013, 4:31pm From:
***@aol.com
On Feb 2, 11:46 pm, Padraigh ProAmerica) wrote:
WE know how the Allies penetrated the major Axis codes like Germany's
ENIGMA and the various Japanese codes- but did the Axis ever penetrate
any major Allied codes?
The answer is "yes," on a number of occasions. German Army cryptanalysts
solved the U.S. M-209 ode when the two armies fought in North Africa in
1942 giving the Germans a fairly good idea of the plans and condition of
the troops they faced. Again, at the time of the USAAF raid on the
Ploesti oil fields, in order to avoid a shoot-down of the U.S.
Liberators by friendly ground fire, the USAAF sent a message advising
allied ground units in the area of the U.S. bombing mission.
The message was send in
the U.S. system known as "Syco" which was fast and simple to use but
which the Germans were able to break into plain text only a short time
after the 178 Liberators had departed from Bengazi. The result was
unusually heavy flak over Rumania which caused the loss of 53 American
planes with large American loss of life.
On another occasion, a German
merchant raider, in the Indian Ocean,the "Atlantis," captured a Btitish
ship and a boarding party was able to obtain some of the Admiralty's
non-current encipherment tables of the broadcasting code to Allied
Merchant Ships called the "BAMS" code, which, although not the current
tables, enabled the Germans by crytanalytic efforts to break into
current messages, locate Allied ship routes, and wait for victims at
locations which could be determined in advance from the intercepts.
Germans were also able
to break into some Atlantic convoy messages from the British Commander
of Western Approaches which enabled U-Boats to be effectively employed.
Italy also had
considerable success in breaking into British Naval codes in 1942.
British Admiral Cunningham was so frustrated that after the invasion of
Crete he threatened to send his messages in the "clear" unless he was
given better cipher systems. Italy also had one other success which
Kahn, in his book "The Codebreakers" called "probably the greatest Axis
communications-intelligence result of the war," the obtaining of the
secret U.S. "BLACK" code tables by an employee of rhe U.S. Embassy in
Rome who broke into a safe and photographed them in the office of the
U.S. military attache in August of 1941, before the U.S. had entered the
war.
One result was that Italy passed the
U.S.BLACK code to Germany, the German high command passed information
obtained from it to Rommel and Rommel was able to obrain volumes of
highly valuable military information about the British campaign which
was being transmitted to Washington by the U.S. military attache in
Cairo.
All
the above were Axis successes by Germany and Italy. but in the Pacific
the Japanese had little if any success breaking Allied codes. On the
other hand, the U.S.was reading Japanese diplomatic codes beginning in
the 1940's, throughout the war, and even after the war. Also Japanese
Naval codes to a considerable extent throughout the war.

=============COMMENT========

AAUI, there were several Japanese codes:

The diplomatic code (PURPLE) broken pre-war.

A simple cipher used by fishermem reporting catch amounts and weather
reports.

A Merchant Marine code used by ships to report predicted noon positions
of ships.

The primary JN-25 naval code.

A special 'flag officers' code for communications between high-ranking
officers (this one remained unbroken due to a lack of traffic).
----------------------------------

An
excellent source of information on the above (and more) is David Kahn's
"The codebreakers" which is a voluminous volume consisting of over 1100
pages tracing the history of secret communications from ancient times to
the dawn of the space age.
WJH

--
"A man who can own a gun is a citizen. A man who cannot own a gun is a
subject."--

LTC Allen West, USA, (Ret.)
Geoffrey Sinclair
2013-02-04 14:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Several dozen would be closer to the mark and that is an under
estimate.
Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
The diplomatic code (PURPLE) broken pre-war.
Purple was the newest Japanese diplomatic code and only for the most
important embassies. Other diplomats used different codes. Then add
things like the military attaché codes.

Add the Japanese Army and Navy and their large number of code
systems.
Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
A simple cipher used by fishermem reporting catch amounts and weather
reports.
A Merchant Marine code used by ships to report predicted noon positions
of ships.
The primary JN-25 naval code.
Which grew in complexity including having several versions in use at
the same time.
Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
A special 'flag officers' code for communications between high-ranking
officers (this one remained unbroken due to a lack of traffic).
This seems more like a misunderstanding of what some in the US called
the Admiral's code from before the Pacific War started. It does not look
like it was as important as the US thought.

Some other IJN codes in use

JN-4 a contact operational code, introduced on 1 December 1941
JN-11, similar to JN-25.
JN-20 a "minor general purpose system" introduced 4 June 1940.
JN-36 and JN-37 weather systems, superceding plain text, introduced
on 7 December 1941.
JN-40 another merchant ship code.
JN-50 The Merchant-Navy vessel liaison code, called JN-50, introduced
in 1939. The US stole a code book and so could read the traffic
from "fall 1939" until the revision on 10 August 1941.
JN-76 The administrative code, introduced on 1 November 1938, called
AD then JN-76
JN-79 The material code introduced in 1935 and called MAT then JN-79
JN-82 The intelligence code, introduced in 1935 and called I then JN-82

All up the IJN used some 184 code systems during the war, these code
systems used 1,007 individual ciphers.

Other code information and yes some of this information
is very tentative,

JN-4 straight list of code groups to transmit, 4 kana.
JN-11 four figure code groups, similar to JN-25, fleet auxiliary system.
Also the related system JN-147 and possibly JN-14.
JN-12? Minefields
JN-39 merchant ship cipher introduced in May 1940 and changed in
February 1941 after theft of the books was suspected.
JN-40 merchant shipping cipher, first broken in September or
November 1942) Called the MARU code by the allies at times.
JN-152 navigation warnings
JN-153 naval air code.
JN-166 naval air/weather code
JN-167 merchant ship code.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2013-02-04 14:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
WE know how the Allies penetrated the major Axis codes like Germany's
ENIGMA and the various Japanese codes- but did the Axis ever penetrate
any major Allied codes?
There was a hierarchy of codes within each service, for example
the Navy, from simple to difficult, and the lower level codes were
usually broken and expected to be broken. At times messages were
deliberately sent knowing the code was broken, including when the
diplomats wanted to make sure the other side knew exactly what
the message was.

The Germans read the RN and merchant ship codes regularly until
1943 were the most important axis successes.

In 1944 they were reading a main US diplomatic cipher, probably
as a result of axis co-operation, the Japanese had been reading some
traffic as early as 1940, enough of the code and associated decrypted
messages were being sent in Axis codes that the allies used the text as
cribs to solve things like the Japanese Military Attaché code.

Italy penetrated French codes pre war and was very useful in
solving pre and early war US diplomatic codes. The Italians copied
the US black code but the Germans and Hungarians were already
reading it.

In 1940 Japan and Finland co-operated on Soviet codes, the Finns
are reported as having cracked about 60 Soviet code systems during
the war. The co-operation was expanded to include Germany and
Hungary.

Ironically the Germans penetrated the Swiss Enigma system and
gave the Croatians commercial Enigma machines which the Germans
could read.

Reading the traffic of neutrals could be quite useful as they reported
on their interactions with the warring parties.
Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
"A man who can own a gun is a citizen. A man who cannot own a gun is a
subject."--
Or alternatively an adult who can vote in a free and fair election of the
government is a citizen, one who cannot is a subject.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Rich Rostrom
2013-02-05 03:19:36 UTC
Permalink
Ironically the Germans penetrated the Swiss Enigma system...
Reading the traffic of neutrals could be quite useful as they reported
on their interactions with the warring parties.
According to Ladislas Farago, the Germans got a
jackpot out of their Swiss penetration. There
was a German agent in the mail room of the Swiss
foreign ministry, who provided them with copies
of the ministry's cipher messages.

This included reports from the Swiss ambassador
to the United States, whose wife was the sister
of Vice President Henry Wallace.

According to Farago, Wallace talked far too much
to his brother-in-law. This gentleman was a fine
man and entirely pro-Allied, but he dutifully
reported everything he learned to his government.

Fortunately, this leak did not expose any critical
secrets. And the resulting intelligence was largely
mishandled by the Germans. This nugget was under
the control of one of the Nazi intelligence chiefs,
who tried to use it in the turf wars; he overplayed
it and it was thereafter ignored.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Haydn
2013-02-05 15:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Italy penetrated French codes pre war....
The reverse was also true, to an extent.

The French had a very good HUMINT, possibly the best. They were good and
fast payers of foreign agents, and the fascination of French ladies was
also put to good effect.

Haydn
Haydn
2013-02-05 16:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Padraigh ProAmerica
WE know how the Allies penetrated the major Axis codes like Germany's
ENIGMA and the various Japanese codes- but did the Axis ever penetrate
any major Allied codes?
A hitherto neglected area of Axis codebreaking success is the Italian
ability to quickly crack British sea reconnaissance communications.

British aircraft used low grade codes for their messages to land and
ship. They knew the enemy would crack them, but that it would take them
a few hours to do so, and when finally deciphered the messages usually
would be of no practical use anymore - as they would be overtaken by
events by then.

Curiously, their assumption was perfectly tailored to actual German
codebreaking abilities, but the Italians were far ahead of the Germans
in that field, having focused on that weak communication link for some
time. It took Italian codebreakers an average 30 - 40 minutes, sometimes
even less, to break a British air recon code.

That ability proved useful when British aircraft spotted Italian ships
on their route to Libya or back to Italy. Whether the plane just
happened to find out the ships, or it was a fake "casual" sighting to
cover an ULTRA interception, as a general rule it called in an air
strike to take the ships out. 20 to 40 minutes later the Italian
commander at sea knew an aerial attack from Malta or Egyptian / Libyan
airfields was imminent. It might take the strike force out of British
airfields one to two hours to fly to the sighting area, locate the enemy
ships and go in. In the meantime the Italian convoy could try to veer
and change route to make the attackers' search more difficult, and/or
prepare for the incoming torpedo run.

Sometimes the attack couldn't be thwarted and losses were suffered, but
sometimes recon codebreaking and subsequent avoidance action cut back
losses or just saved a convoy previously pinpointed by ULTRA for
destruction. On one occasion a flight of six Beaufort torpedo bombers
was met by fully alerted ships with devastating AA fire, losing three
planes to it - 50% of the attacking formation. The remaining aircraft
scored no hits.

Haydn

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