Map references Normandy

[Blitzko]

I am trying to decipher map co-ordinate references used during the Normandy
campaign in WW2. Does anyone have a pointer to a reference (book, archive
document, web site etc.) that explains the map co-ordinate system used by
the Americans, British and Canadians during and in the two months after
D-Day.

For example, I have a map grid reference 058682 which I have gleaned from a
patrol report of July 15, 1944. This is from a section level patrol from D
Company of the 1st Btn Canadian Scottish Regiment. I know from the date and
the context of the patrol report that the patrol was in an area of Caen, in
Normandy, between the Orne canal and the Orne river. I would very much like
to know the precise location based on the map reference numbers, but I don't
know how to interpret them.

Any ideas?

Thanks

--

[Herbert Pocket]

Blitzko,
I just made some enquiries about this.

If your source were a signal or order then the co-ordinates would almost
definitely be encoded for security, using for example the (Royal
Artillery's) SLIDEX system (see e.g.
http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/artycomm.htm). You will see that this
page also refers to "A standard army wide low level cipher for map
references was introduced at the beginning of 1944." I'm afraid I have no
further information about this.

As your source is a report, it is less clear whether the co-ordinates would
be plain or encoded. A reasonable guess is that they would be plain,
otherwise every reader of such reports would need to know which (typically
24-hour for SLIDEX) encoding key was in operation when the report was
prepared.

I think your most realistic hope is to assume that yours is a plain,
6-figure grid reference of the general format eeennn (eastings and
northings), though there should also be a two letter prefix denoting a 10km
grid square.

***** 45 minutes later ******

From a Google search I just discovered

http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-overview.php. This excellent site strongly
suggests that the "Modified British System" was in use by the Allies in
1944, and that your location was in "French Lambert Zone 1" (north western
France).

You will need to make the further assumption regarding which 10km grid
square your reference is in, but that is quite easy given that you
understand the location to be in the Caen area.

I've just tried using the site's "Coordinates Translator" at
http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-translator.php, assuming the "French
Lambert Zone 1" and grid ref. vU058682.

After clicking the "convert" button I got a red circle with a cross in it
right over Caen. (Well, maybe not surprising since we chose the 10km grid
square with Caen in it, but there's quite a bit of land outside Caen in the
same square).

But it gets even better....

Click anywhere in this map image and you will be taken to a "Mapquest" page
showing your location against a modern map background. Click the "Zoom in"
button a few times and .....

EUREKA!

If that doesn't tie up with your description "between the Orne canal and the
Orne river" I don't know what does!!!!! Right there in the industrial east
of Caen. At this point I'm pretty well convinced that this is your location
(+/- some error).

Regarding error, you will see at the bottom of the Translator page:
"Note : the imprecision of the determination is evaluated between 5 and 30
arc-seconds (this corresponds to an imprecision varying from 150 to 1000
meters on the field)."

I suggest you follow through the process as I did and see if you get the
same result. Then, if this system gains your confidence, please let us know
how it copes with your other grid refernces. And maybe some thanks are due
to the createur of the site, Thierry Arsicaud, (see site's Contacts page). I
think he has done a fantastic job.

HTH
Herbert the Detective

I am trying to decipher map co-ordinate references used during the Normandy
campaign in WW2. Does anyone have a pointer to a reference (book, archive
document, web site etc.) that explains the map co-ordinate system used by
the Americans, British and Canadians during and in the two months after
D-Day.
For example, I have a map grid reference 058682 which I have gleaned from a
patrol report of July 15, 1944. This is from a section level patrol from D
Company of the 1st Btn Canadian Scottish Regiment. I know from the date and
the context of the patrol report that the patrol was in an area of Caen, in
Normandy, between the Orne canal and the Orne river. I would very much like
to know the precise location based on the map reference numbers, but I don't
know how to interpret them.
Any ideas?
Thanks
--

--

[Herbert Pocket]

<embarassment size="fairly deep">

Please substitute 100km for 10km (three times) in my earlier post.

</embarassment>
--

[Blitzko]

Hi Herbert,

My first reply to you did not go through. Thank you for your excellent reply
and detective work!

I followed your instructions to Thierry Arsicaud's excellent web site and
sure enough, just as you had, I found the coordinates via Map Quest and they
match very well with the patrol report and pinpoint the spot where a
sleeping German soldier was captured, briefly, by the patrol and where they
came under fire from German MGs across the Orne river.

This has pinpointed where my late father was wounded in the early morning
hours of July 15, 1944.

Kudos to you and to Thiery for his excellent web site,

Best regards,

Blitzko

"Herbert Pocket" <***@thingy.com> wrote in message news:c1m3q9$g8m$***@nntp6.u.washington.edu...
<Snip some interesting stuff>

Post by Herbert Pocket
I've just tried using the site's "Coordinates Translator" at
http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-translator.php, assuming the "French
Lambert Zone 1" and grid ref. vU058682.
After clicking the "convert" button I got a red circle with a cross in it
right over Caen. (Well, maybe not surprising since we chose the 10km grid
square with Caen in it, but there's quite a bit of land outside Caen in the
same square).
But it gets even better....
Click anywhere in this map image and you will be taken to a "Mapquest" page
showing your location against a modern map background. Click the "Zoom in"
button a few times and .....
EUREKA!
If that doesn't tie up with your description "between the Orne canal and the
Orne river" I don't know what does!!!!! Right there in the industrial east
of Caen. At this point I'm pretty well convinced that this is your location
(+/- some error).
"Note : the imprecision of the determination is evaluated between 5 and 30
arc-seconds (this corresponds to an imprecision varying from 150 to 1000
meters on the field)."
I suggest you follow through the process as I did and see if you get the
same result. Then, if this system gains your confidence, please let us know
how it copes with your other grid refernces. And maybe some thanks are due
to the createur of the site, Thierry Arsicaud, (see site's Contacts page). I
think he has done a fantastic job.
HTH
Herbert the Detective

--

[Herbert Pocket]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[WalterM140]

Post by Blitzko
I would very much like
to know the precise location based on the map reference numbers, but I don't
know how to interpret them.
Any ideas?

I hope I remember this right.

The six digit grid system is set up to reduce the location to
thousands,
hundreds and tens of yards.

Your location 058682 is in grid square "06" (the first and fourth
digit) on
the map sheet you have. Read across the top (or bottom) right to the
"0" and
down to the "6". Within that 1,000 yard square you go 500 yards (the
second
digit) right, and 800 yards (the fifth digit) down. From that
location you go
80 yards right and 20 yards down. And there you are.

Walt

[Ed Frank]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Geoff Barnard]

Regarding the map ref question.

I've looked at a copy of one of the 1:50000 maps I have for the area
(copies as used by the Allied forces 1944). The specific one is the
sheet labelled CAEN ref 7F/1.

Sure enough, the map ref given - 058682 - ties up with the location
you
suggest, with the 058 covering the W/E grid and the 682 the S/N grid.

Yes, the specific point is due east of Caen, between the river and the
canal. More specifically, very close to the Orne river, on the north
bank (the river having run East from Caen before turning north towards
the sea). The map I have shows no significant detail at this point,
there's a railway line to the north, and a triangular railway junction
to the north-north-east.

I could try to scan this bit of map and send you an image, if you're
so
interested in this spot?

Geoff Barnard
.

[Thomas L. Ensminger]

I threw this at my friend from USGS and he came back with this long, but
hopefully enlightening answer:

Being that this is a Canadian-Scottish unit, they would probably have
either
1:25,000 scale or 1:50,000 scale maps.
Around 12 May 1942, a mapping agreement was reached between Military
Survey,
British mapping, and the (US) Army Map Service. Essentially, this agreement
said
that when US troops cross a certain longitude, that the Brits would supply
the
bulk of the mapping needs. Likewise, the US would supply Commonwealth troops
with US made maps when they cross a certain longitude.
With that said, the maps for the ETO were of British origin. However, US
mapping
assets in ETO did print maps over their AOR but the maps were of British
origin,
usually reprints and the maps would reflect that somewhere along the botton
edge.
About the map coverage for Normandy. Either the 1:25,000 or 1:50,000
scale
was used. From the map references, that I have, ie a book called GSGS Maps
of
France, Belgium, Holland, DEC 1943, the Orne Canal and Orne River are on 1
of 3
possible sheets. Without the actual sheet, I cannot tell. GSGS 4347, which
covers France and Belgium at 1:25,000 scale; sheet 40/16 SW or 37/16SE would
do
the trick. GSGS 4250 @ 1:50,000 scale has a sheet over the Caen area. This
is
sheet 7F1.
About the coordinate reference. The Grid should work in either of the
sheets, although I suspect the Caen sheet would be more appropriate. The
reference is 058682. From MGRS (Military Grid Reference System-most commonly
used with 1:50,000 scale sheets), 058 and 682 relate to the approximate
location
of whatever was mentioned. There is a problem here as this number is only
half
of the location. 058 is the Easting and 682 is the northing. What we do not
have
are the numbers before these 6. In MGRS, these 6 digits will put you within
100m
of whatever this is. If we had 8 digits, we would be within 10m; 4-within
1000m
(or a grid square).

TE, ret.
www.carpetbaggerops.org

Post by Blitzko
For example, I have a map grid reference 058682 which I have gleaned from a
patrol report of July 15, 1944. This is from a section level patrol from D
Company of the 1st Btn Canadian Scottish Regiment. I know from the date and
the context of the patrol report that the patrol was in an area of Caen, in
Normandy, between the Orne canal and the Orne river. I would very much like
to know the precise location based on the map reference numbers, but I don't
know how to interpret them.

--