Discussion:
Lack of Japan preparations for Strategic bombing
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SolomonW
2014-01-29 15:42:15 UTC
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I have just finished reading Whirlwind "The air war against Japan
1942-1945" by Barrett Tillman. Its a good read.

One of his points is that Japan could have done more to prepare for the
strategic bombing.

Despite getting adequate intelligence of the B-29 as early as autumn 1943,
p40. The Japanese also had determined then how these B-29 would be used.


Air defence was poor, little radar, little anti-aircraft guns poor
co-ordination, etc.

No city in Japan seems to have adequate fire fighting, most were
volunteers. The fireman lacked modern equipment, even extension ladders and
used outdated tactics. Few air-raid shelters existed. Medical services were
inadequate.

Thoughts?
c***@gmail.com
2014-01-31 16:59:01 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Thoughts?
Yes, Japan certainly was poorly prepared for the bombing that it
received.

But there's a very good reason for that. A Japan that was capable
of planning ahead enough- in a rational manner- to prepare their
cities for sustained strategic bombing would also be a Japan that
wouldn't attack the two strongest naval powers on the planet.

Chris Manteuffel
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-02 04:45:54 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by SolomonW
Thoughts?
Yes, Japan certainly was poorly prepared for the bombing that it
received.
But there's a very good reason for that. A Japan that was capable
of planning ahead enough- in a rational manner- to prepare their
cities for sustained strategic bombing would also be a Japan that
wouldn't attack the two strongest naval powers on the planet.
That, and a lack of any real central planning agencies to take charge
of anything that didn't directly impact the military.

Mike
Georg Schwarz
2014-02-02 22:44:09 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Yes, Japan certainly was poorly prepared for the bombing that it
received.
was Germany better prepared? If so, what were the differences, and were
the Japanese unable or unwilling to profit from Germany's experience?
--
Georg Schwarz http://home.pages.de/~schwarz/
***@freenet.de +49 176 91313874
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-03 02:40:11 UTC
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Post by Georg Schwarz
Post by c***@gmail.com
Yes, Japan certainly was poorly prepared for the bombing that it
received.
was Germany better prepared? If so, what were the differences, and were
the Japanese unable or unwilling to profit from Germany's experience?
Not sure "better prepared" the appropriate term, but among the differences...

Japan had much more in the way of wood structures than did Germany.
German nightfighters (and AA) were much better.
Their radar was better.
Germany didn't suffer the shortage of concrete for building shelters that
Japan experienced.

Also, Germany had a more centralized command structure, so if someone needed
to make a decision, they could. In Japan, some consensus had to be reached
in order to get many of these things done.

Mike
WJHopwood
2014-02-02 03:03:12 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
I have just finished reading Whirlwind "The air war against Japan
1942-1945" by Barrett Tillman. Its a good read.
One of his points is that Japan could have done more to prepare for the
strategic bombing. Despite getting adequate intelligence of the B-29 as
early as autumn 1943...The Japanese also had determined then how these
B-29 would be used....
After the attack on Pearl Harbor and their initial victories in the Pacific
which followed, Japanese political and military leaders (with the
exception of Yamamoto and a few others who believed that Japan
could only succeed against the U.S. in a conflict of very short duration)
became hypnotized with their successes. The thought of the necessity
to prepare for U.S. air raids on their homeland were far from the minds
of those infected with what historian John J. Stephan labelled "Victory
Disease," the title of Chapter VIII of his epic book, "Hawaii Under the
Rising Sun: Japan's Plans for Conquest After Pearl Harbor,"
Typical, "...in such an atmosphere." wrote Stephans, " a military
affairs reporter for the "Tokyo shinbun" "recommended that Japan
occupy the (U.S.) mainland to the Rocky Mountains before opening
peace negotiations...the Americans would have no alternative but
to accede to Japan's terms once Imperial forces had seized California,
Oregon, and Washington...an imposing (Japanese) fleet steams toward
New York City...huge crowds throng to the shoreline waving Rising
Sun flags and screaming 'Banzai.' On this stirring day, the Greater
East Asia War comes to an end."
And so it went in Japan until reality began to sink in, but then it
was too late to make adequate preparations for the B-29s and the
firestorms which followed, ending with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

WJH
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-02 06:29:01 UTC
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Post by WJHopwood
Post by SolomonW
I have just finished reading Whirlwind "The air war against Japan
1942-1945" by Barrett Tillman. Its a good read.
One of his points is that Japan could have done more to prepare for the
strategic bombing. Despite getting adequate intelligence of the B-29 as
early as autumn 1943...The Japanese also had determined then how these
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Post by WJHopwood
Post by SolomonW
B-29 would be used....
After the attack on Pearl Harbor and their initial victories in the Pacific
which followed, Japanese political and military leaders (with the
exception of Yamamoto and a few others who believed that Japan
could only succeed against the U.S. in a conflict of very short duration)
became hypnotized with their successes. The thought of the necessity
to prepare for U.S. air raids on their homeland were far from the minds
of those infected with what historian John J. Stephan labelled "Victory
Disease," the title of Chapter VIII of his epic book, "Hawaii Under the
Rising Sun: Japan's Plans for Conquest After Pearl Harbor,"
Typical, "...in such an atmosphere." wrote Stephans, " a military
affairs reporter for the "Tokyo shinbun" "recommended that Japan
occupy the (U.S.) mainland to the Rocky Mountains before opening
peace negotiations...the Americans would have no alternative but
to accede to Japan's terms once Imperial forces had seized California,
Oregon, and Washington...an imposing (Japanese) fleet steams toward
New York City...huge crowds throng to the shoreline waving Rising
Sun flags and screaming 'Banzai.' On this stirring day, the Greater
East Asia War comes to an end."
And so it went in Japan until reality began to sink in, but then it
was too late to make adequate preparations for the B-29s and the
firestorms which followed, ending with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The timeframe under discussion is autumn, 1943; by this time, there was no
pretense that Japan was going to win a war, short or otherwise, putting aside
the wet dreams of some "military affairs reporter" for a local newspaper.
Doolittle's Raid had caused a reaction in Japan completely out of
proportion to its effect. Midway had seen the gutting of the Japanese
carrier force, Guadalcanal had made it plain that Japan was not going
to go on any offensive, and Yamamoto had already been killed. Small scale
bombing of Japan from the Kurils had already begun.

It's a valid question; certainly, they had the manpower to organize a more
effective fire defense, and they'd had centuries of experience dealing
with large-scale fires. They had transferred needed aircraft from the
front lines to the homeland after the Doolittle Raid. But the Japanese
radar was only able to give about a one hour warning for incoming formations.
The B-29s could fly higher than the Japanese fighters, and the Japanese
fighters were relatively lightly armed.

It wasn't until about April of 1945 that the air defense was put under a
single command, but by that time, most of the trained pilots had been
killed. As for fire-fighting, apparently it simply never occurred to anyone
to try to organize a coordinated response. Despite the fact that "the
military" was the de facto leader of Japan at the time, there was never
a single decision-maker. Consequently, only the most dire military
requirements were addressed, and civilian safety was left to local
authorities, or ignored entirely.

Mike
David Wilma
2014-02-02 18:50:32 UTC
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Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
to go on any offensive, and Yamamoto had already been killed. Small scale
bombing of Japan from the Kurils had already begun.
Mike
From the Kurils, Soviet territory?
Dave Wilma
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-02 21:59:14 UTC
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Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
to go on any offensive, and Yamamoto had already been killed. Small scale
bombing of Japan from the Kurils had already begun.
Mike
From the Kurils, Soviet territory?
Sigh; bombing OF the Kurils.

I hate brain farts...

Mike
news
2014-02-05 22:30:55 UTC
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Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
to go on any offensive, and Yamamoto had already been killed. Small scale
bombing of Japan from the Kurils had already begun.
Mike
From the Kurils, Soviet territory?
Sigh; bombing OF the Kurils.
I hate brain farts...
Was WONDERING what the POD was either to bring the Soviets in early
without fighting in Manchuria or somehow get the Kurils into American
hands.....
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-02 06:29:29 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
I have just finished reading Whirlwind "The air war against Japan
1942-1945" by Barrett Tillman. Its a good read.
One of his points is that Japan could have done more to prepare for the
strategic bombing.
They could have done a lot, if they'd had any sort of coordinated planning.
Remember, they never really addressed their supply situation for the war
against the Western powers.
Post by SolomonW
Despite getting adequate intelligence of the B-29 as early as autumn 1943,
p40. The Japanese also had determined then how these B-29 would be used.
Interesting; did they really envision the fire-bombings? If so, what was
the inspiration for these fears? The Hamburg bombing?
Post by SolomonW
Air defence was poor, little radar, little anti-aircraft guns poor
co-ordination, etc.
They had shifted several aircraft units from China to the main islands
after Doolittle, but Japanese radar wasn't really that effective.
Post by SolomonW
No city in Japan seems to have adequate fire fighting, most were
volunteers. The fireman lacked modern equipment, even extension ladders and
used outdated tactics. Few air-raid shelters existed. Medical services were
inadequate.
For that, Japan had a shortage of almost everything by this time.
Post by SolomonW
Thoughts?
Short answer (it sounds sarcastic, but isn't): it probably never occurred to
them it was important. Long answer: see above about lack of any central
planning.

Mike
SolomonW
2014-02-02 18:49:31 UTC
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Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by SolomonW
Despite getting adequate intelligence of the B-29 as early as autumn 1943,
p40. The Japanese also had determined then how these B-29 would be used.
Interesting; did they really envision the fire-bombings? If so, what was
the inspiration for these fears? The Hamburg bombing?
It seems to be the Japanese intelligence used public information from the
press and logical thinking from there.

Apparently, the US made no secret of its intension to bomb Japan.

His main source you can read here.


http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4470.0
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-02 22:43:48 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by SolomonW
Despite getting adequate intelligence of the B-29 as early as autumn 1943,
p40. The Japanese also had determined then how these B-29 would be used.
Interesting; did they really envision the fire-bombings? If so, what was
the inspiration for these fears? The Hamburg bombing?
It seems to be the Japanese intelligence used public information from the
press and logical thinking from there.
Apparently, the US made no secret of its intension to bomb Japan.
His main source you can read here.
http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4470.0
It wasn't the bombing, per se, I was asking about. It was specifically about
the fire-bombing.

Mike
SolomonW
2014-02-03 16:17:32 UTC
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Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
It wasn't the bombing, per se, I was asking about. It was specifically about
the fire-bombing.
They knew of the development of the B-29, and had a fair idea of its
capabilities and its production quantity. They would have seen the huge
effort the US was making in building airports in China and the Pacific.
They also received reports that senior US officials were openly planing
massive bombing.

Furthermore, I am sure the Japanese looking at the US from their racial
point of view, would have few illusions that if the allies were bombing
whites in Germany that a similar fate would befall them if the allies had
this capability.

Where this fits in your question of fire-bombing, in particular, I am
checking the references in the book.
news
2014-02-05 22:46:48 UTC
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Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by SolomonW
http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4470.0
It wasn't the bombing, per se, I was asking about. It was specifically about
the fire-bombing.
Fair enough - but my whole point was was there anybody in Japan who
was unclear on the idea that the US would bomb as devastatingly as
they could manage?

In my world create firestorms of the Hamburg type is more effective
than standard bombing though less so than nuclear weapons which were
not of course available in 1943-44.

Stalin's comment when told of the atomic bomb that he hoped the US
would use it to create the most damage on Japan is commonly suggested
to mean he knew all about the Manhattan project and was not unduly
surprised. I'm suggesting that even if he had known nothing about it
his reaction would have been similar - 'oh you have a more powerful
bomb? Good - put it to good use on the enemy!"
news
2014-02-05 19:54:40 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
It seems to be the Japanese intelligence used public information from the
press and logical thinking from there.
Apparently, the US made no secret of its intension to bomb Japan.
Given the Doolittle Raid, only a complete idiot would fail to
understand the intent of the United States to bomb Japan when and
wherever she could in as much force as she could.

Only a complete idiot would need that explained and the Japanese High
Command were not idiots. Even without the Doolittle raid I question
whether any Japanese would be unclear on the idea that if and when the
Americans could bomb Japan they would.

How this could be a novel concept is beyond me!
Post by SolomonW
His main source you can read here.
http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4470.0
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-02-02 18:50:08 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
I have just finished reading Whirlwind "The air war against Japan
1942-1945" by Barrett Tillman. Its a good read.
One of his points is that Japan could have done more to prepare for the
strategic bombing.
Yes, this is usually the case, the question being what historical efforts
would have to stop in order to do the extra work.
Post by SolomonW
Despite getting adequate intelligence of the B-29 as early as autumn 1943,
p40. The Japanese also had determined then how these B-29 would be used.
Tillman is saying the Japanese had figured out there would be night
fire raids?
Post by SolomonW
Air defence was poor, little radar, little anti-aircraft guns poor
co-ordination, etc.
That applied to the Japanese positions just about everywhere. Japan
could not sustain a modern war, even without the Army-Navy feuds and
the failure to create an integrated air defence of Japan.
Post by SolomonW
No city in Japan seems to have adequate fire fighting, most were
volunteers. The fireman lacked modern equipment, even extension ladders and
used outdated tactics. Few air-raid shelters existed. Medical services were
inadequate.
Thoughts?
In 1939 I think Japan, with over 70 million people used about as much oil
as Australia with under 7 million. Away from a few key areas Japan's
economy was quite muscle, not machine powered.

There were plenty of volunteer fire fighters protecting cities in Europe
at the time, and there are still plenty of such fire fighters today.

How many Japanese buildings were tall enough to require extension
ladders?

A lot of the problems are due to the inability of the Japanese Military
authorities, the divided rule, the doctrine of always attack, the
propaganda that said Japan was winning well. Hard to say that if
major air raid protection works are going on. The air raid precautions
follow the theme of some Japanese, they always seemed to need a
few more months of preparation but the enemy was always that step
ahead.

The Japanese offensive in China in mid 1944 had as one of its
successful aims to take control of some airfields useful for B-29s.
Plus the sheer problems of supplying China limited missions.

Raids from Alaska would have supply problems but more
importantly weather problems, something both sides knew well.
Then add the weather over Japan, like Germany, plenty of days
unsuitable for visual bombing.

As long as the Marianas were held the B-29 could be kept out
of range or limited by supply and/or weather problems. So no
need for new air raid protection yet.

The first B-29 raid on Japan was 14 June 1944.

The US invaded the Marianas on 15 June 1944.

The first B-29 raid on Japan from the Marianas was on 24
November 1944.

The first test fire raid was against Nagoya on 3 January 1945.

The early B-29 raids had little effect and overall the planned
dispersal of Japanese industry is thought to have cost more
production than B-29 inflicted damage.

According to the USAAF Japanese fighters shot down 1.75%
of effective B-29 sorties in November 1944, 1% in December
and 1.5% in January. Radar stations on Iwo Jima helped warn
Japan. These losses were a worry to the USAAF but B-29
losses to enemy aircraft were never as high again.

Japanese AA was largely ineffective until the low level raids.

The first major fire raid was on 4 February 1945.

The US invaded Iwo Jima on 13 February 1945.

The B-29 campaign was another end weighted bomber
offensive, to the end of March 1945 the 20th had dropped only
18.7% of its eventual total B-29 wartime bomb tonnage, to end
May it was 43.3%, end June 62.5%, end July 87.6%.

The bomb tonnage dropped in June 1945 was slightly more
than the tonnage dropped June 1944 to March 1945.

The Japanese authorities could certainly have done more, even
given the problems they had, at the same time it is unlikely any
authority would have done the sort of measures that turned out
to be required without the evidence of actual raids and would
probably still be caught out by the expansion of the B-29 force

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
c***@gmail.com
2014-02-04 15:56:57 UTC
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Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The bomb tonnage dropped in June 1945 was slightly more
than the tonnage dropped June 1944 to March 1945.
And it is worth remembering that the number of dead did not scale with
tonnage dropped: the Great Tokyo Firebombing in March 1945 was not just the
most deadly air raid in history, it also accounted for about a quarter of
all the deaths from the strategic bombing of Japan.

Working off Tillman's estimates, about 425,000 people died in the bombing
campaign, and about 300,000 of them died in just three raids: the Great
Tokyo Firebombing, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. All the rest of the raids, though
they did a great deal of physical destruction, added up to about the same as
just Operation Meetinghouse alone in terms of dead.

The unpredictability of firestorms is worth considering here. Bombers would
go out regularly trying to create a firestorm[1], but unless the conditions
were just right for the attackers, they would not (weather, accuracy, target,
etc.all had to be just right). Since the number of dead in an attack really
depends on whether there was a firestorm or not, the relationship between
tonnage and dead is not a direct one.

The big difference with the atomic bomb was that you could get firestorm-like
effects every time. (Nagasaki was probably not a firestorm, but produced
casualties at the same level.)

[1]: A firestorm is when the fire creates it's own wind to blow it along. Many
of the people who died in the firestorm's (Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima,
etc.) actually died of suffocation, because the wind blew so powerfully.

Chris Manteuffel
m***@netMAPSONscape.net
2014-02-05 04:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
The unpredictability of firestorms is worth considering here. Bombers would
go out regularly trying to create a firestorm[1], but unless the conditions
were just right for the attackers, they would not (weather, accuracy, target,
etc.all had to be just right). Since the number of dead in an attack really
depends on whether there was a firestorm or not, the relationship between
tonnage and dead is not a direct one.
Another thing about Japanese cities; they were all built in wet areas, often
criss-crossed with rivers. Also, at that time, rice-paddies were often within
sight of various downtowns. These would act as coolants and natural fire
breaks, making firestorms more difficult. Tokyo, however, had been filling
in its rivers and streams for centuries (and this continued after the war)
and little land was used for cultivation there. With the predominant
wooden structures, it almost would have been difficult NOT to have a
firestorm.

Mike
Geoffrey Sinclair
2014-02-05 15:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The bomb tonnage dropped in June 1945 was slightly more
than the tonnage dropped June 1944 to March 1945.
And it is worth remembering that the number of dead did not scale with
Agreed.
Post by c***@gmail.com
the Great Tokyo Firebombing in March 1945 was not just the
most deadly air raid in history, it also accounted for about a quarter of
all the deaths from the strategic bombing of Japan.
That sounds about right.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Working off Tillman's estimates, about 425,000 people died in the bombing
campaign, and about 300,000 of them died in just three raids: the Great
Tokyo Firebombing, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. All the rest of the raids, though
they did a great deal of physical destruction, added up to about the same as
just Operation Meetinghouse alone in terms of dead.
So as of early August 1945 Japan had been under air attack for around 15
months. Things were intensifying with the allied carrier aircraft and
shorter
ranged land aircraft now able to strike, but so far only 1 raid that
devastated
property and lives. Since many Japanese believed being invaded by the
USA was so bad, like most people in the modern USA would look upon an
invasion today by North Korea, the "odds" were acceptable.

The air raids had done little to industrial production, normally did not
kill
large numbers of people but were destroying lots of buildings, something
that would really hurt when the winter set in.

The dispersal of industry, along with the choking of imports would have
done more to cut production, the reduction of food imports and yields
(including fishing) would be threatening to kill more people. Even 1%
of the home islands population of over 70 million was more than the
air raid deaths, deaths from exposure in the coming winter would
have been high when coupled with lack of food.
Post by c***@gmail.com
The unpredictability of firestorms is worth considering here. Bombers would
go out regularly trying to create a firestorm[1], but unless the conditions
were just right for the attackers, they would not (weather, accuracy, target,
etc.all had to be just right).
Fire defences as well, including the important one of people being out
and taking the risk in order to douse incendiaries as they landed.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Since the number of dead in an attack really
depends on whether there was a firestorm or not, the relationship between
tonnage and dead is not a direct one.
The big difference with the atomic bomb was that you could get
firestorm-like
effects every time. (Nagasaki was probably not a firestorm, but produced
casualties at the same level.)
The air raid sirens had not sounded for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, that meant
casualties were much higher than if the atomic bombs had been delivered
as part of a big enough raid where the Japanese sounded the alert.
Post by c***@gmail.com
[1]: A firestorm is when the fire creates it's own wind to blow it along. Many
of the people who died in the firestorm's (Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima,
etc.) actually died of suffocation, because the wind blew so powerfully.
I thought the suffocation was due to reduced oxygen levels thanks to so
much fire, radiant heat would have been a big killer and the winds were
strong enough to sweep an adult off their feet and were blowing into the
fire. People had to work hard in a hot, oxygen depleted area to move
against the wind.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
S***@argo.rhein-neckar.de
2014-02-05 21:59:53 UTC
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## Nachricht vom 05.02.14 weitergeleitet
Post by SolomonW
Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Post by SolomonW
Despite getting adequate intelligence of the B-29 as early as autumn
1943, p40. The Japanese also had determined then how these B-29 would be
used.
Interesting; did they really envision the fire-bombings? If so, what was
the inspiration for these fears? The Hamburg bombing?
It seems to be the Japanese intelligence used public information from the
press and logical thinking from there.
Apparently, the US made no secret of its intension to bomb Japan.
Neither did the Japanese of what to expect. I remember an official
Japanese newsreel during the fighting of Saipan. They showed a map
and explained that the distance was the range for US bombers to reach
Japan. I vague remember there was a school classroom scene were teenagers
got told this.

That the US would go for fire bombing was obvious. The Japanese government
destroyed a considerable part of the city houses to create fire protection
zones. No other nation went such far. I dont see much more options. For
more AAA they lacked industry and know how (radar). For night-fighter
the same and lack of fuel.



## CrossPoint v3.12d R ##
Rich Rostrom
2014-02-07 03:19:50 UTC
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Post by S***@argo.rhein-neckar.de
That the US would go for fire bombing was obvious.
Not to the U.S. The B-29s bombed for two months
(from the Marianas; seven months including the
raids from China), before the _fire_-bombing
started.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
news
2014-02-14 15:42:50 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:19:50 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by S***@argo.rhein-neckar.de
That the US would go for fire bombing was obvious.
Not to the U.S. The B-29s bombed for two months
(from the Marianas; seven months including the
raids from China), before the _fire_-bombing
started.
Fair enough but is it not clear that if the United States saw a
particular method of bombing did more damage they would adopt that
method and seek to improve on it??

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