Discussion:
Bomb weights: always round numbers?
(too old to reply)
Rich Rostrom
2013-10-25 16:56:13 UTC
Permalink
I note that aerial bombs were nearly always calibrated
in "round numbers": 1000 ib, 250 ib, 200 kg, etc.

This inspired a few questions.

First, were these designations accurate or nominal?
That is, was the bombs supposed to weigh exactly that
amount, or was the actual spec somewhat more or less,
and the designation just a convenient name?

Second, did anyone consider that such weights might
not be optimal? That for a given aircraft on a given
type of mission, best results might be achieved with a
bomb of some other weight?

For instance, a 500 lb bomb might be often ineffective
even if it hits, whereas a 1,000 lb bomb might load
down the aircraft, reducing range and maneuverability,
and making it substantially harder to hit the target
squarely. (I am thinking of a dive bomber here.)

The "optimum" size might be, say, 787 lb.

With heavy bombers in level bombing... the bomber has
a bomb bay of fixed dimensions with a fixed number of
shackle points. It also has a given engine power and
resulting paylaad. One might load out with that number
of 250 lb bombs, and find that the plane could handle
more bombload. But 500 lb bombs would be too much; a
"middleweight" bomb would be wanted.

Did anyone attempt or implement bomb designs of non-round
weights?

I know this was done to some degree with the super-heavy
British bombs - the "Tallboy", "Earthquake", and "Volcano".

But was this ever done anywhere else?

This also raises a question about the loading-out
practices of Bomber Command. It's said that BC tried
to maximize bombload, with planes often straining
their undercarriages on take-off. How did they adjust
bombloads, and how "fine" could they tweak? Were small
adjustments made in fuel load instead?
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
news
2013-10-25 19:42:23 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Rich Rostrom
I note that aerial bombs were nearly always calibrated
in "round numbers": 1000 ib, 250 ib, 200 kg, etc.
This inspired a few questions.
First, were these designations accurate or nominal?
That is, was the bombs supposed to weigh exactly that
amount, or was the actual spec somewhat more or less,
and the designation just a convenient name?
Second, did anyone consider that such weights might
not be optimal? That for a given aircraft on a given
type of mission, best results might be achieved with a
bomb of some other weight?
For instance, a 500 lb bomb might be often ineffective
even if it hits, whereas a 1,000 lb bomb might load
down the aircraft, reducing range and maneuverability,
and making it substantially harder to hit the target
squarely. (I am thinking of a dive bomber here.)
The "optimum" size might be, say, 787 lb.
With heavy bombers in level bombing... the bomber has
a bomb bay of fixed dimensions with a fixed number of
shackle points. It also has a given engine power and
resulting paylaad. One might load out with that number
of 250 lb bombs, and find that the plane could handle
more bombload. But 500 lb bombs would be too much; a
"middleweight" bomb would be wanted.
Did anyone attempt or implement bomb designs of non-round
weights?
I know this was done to some degree with the super-heavy
British bombs - the "Tallboy", "Earthquake", and "Volcano".
But was this ever done anywhere else?
This also raises a question about the loading-out
practices of Bomber Command. It's said that BC tried
to maximize bombload, with planes often straining
their undercarriages on take-off. How did they adjust
bombloads, and how "fine" could they tweak? Were small
adjustments made in fuel load instead?
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't generally
considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round which doesn't equate to
a recognizable non-metric number.
Stephen Graham
2013-10-25 20:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't generally
considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round which doesn't equate to
a recognizable non-metric number.
The US Army in World War One picked up much of its heavier ordnance
including mortars from the French, who naturally used the metric system.
news
2013-10-26 05:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't generally
considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round which doesn't equate to
a recognizable non-metric number.
The US Army in World War One picked up much of its heavier ordnance
including mortars from the French, who naturally used the metric system.
I figured that, but there have been any number of artillery rounds since
that have followed that convention: 120mm isn't quite 5 inches yet we
have 5 inch guns on naval vessels, 105mm is just over 4 inches
Stephen Graham
2013-10-26 05:23:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't generally
considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round which doesn't equate to
a recognizable non-metric number.
The US Army in World War One picked up much of its heavier ordnance
including mortars from the French, who naturally used the metric system.
I figured that, but there have been any number of artillery rounds since
that have followed that convention: 120mm isn't quite 5 inches yet we
have 5 inch guns on naval vessels, 105mm is just over 4 inches
Rich Anderson can likely go into much more detail. The simple answer is
that naval ordnance is a separate development path and the US invested
more in it immediately prior to World War One.

For military ordnance, once you have material in one system, it's better
to keep using it and follow further developments. That way your stock of
60mm mortar rounds doesn't suddenly become obsolescent.
news
2013-10-26 22:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by news
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't generally
considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round which doesn't equate to
a recognizable non-metric number.
The US Army in World War One picked up much of its heavier ordnance
including mortars from the French, who naturally used the metric system.
I figured that, but there have been any number of artillery rounds since
that have followed that convention: 120mm isn't quite 5 inches yet we
have 5 inch guns on naval vessels, 105mm is just over 4 inches
Rich Anderson can likely go into much more detail. The simple answer is
that naval ordnance is a separate development path and the US invested
more in it immediately prior to World War One.
For military ordnance, once you have material in one system, it's better
to keep using it and follow further developments. That way your stock of
60mm mortar rounds doesn't suddenly become obsolescent.
the military, most notably the Air Force, has dealt effectively with
what to do with obsolescent hardware. I can't imagine that it would be
hard to give the 60mm mortar rounds to some country as military aid
Stephen Graham
2013-10-27 01:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
the military, most notably the Air Force, has dealt effectively with
what to do with obsolescent hardware. I can't imagine that it would be
hard to give the 60mm mortar rounds to some country as military aid
Think about this in terms of the cash-strapped US Army of the 1920's and
1930's. It really couldn't afford to replace everything. It needed to
concentrate resources on a few important things.
Roman W
2013-10-28 22:24:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 21:27:39 -0400, Stephen Graham
Post by Stephen Graham
Think about this in terms of the cash-strapped US Army of the
1920's and
Post by Stephen Graham
1930's. It really couldn't afford to replace everything. It needed to
concentrate resources on a few important things.
Was it the last time one could describe the US military as "
cash-strapped"?

RW
Stephen Graham
2013-10-28 22:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman W
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 21:27:39 -0400, Stephen Graham
Post by Stephen Graham
Think about this in terms of the cash-strapped US Army of the
1920's and
Post by Stephen Graham
1930's. It really couldn't afford to replace everything. It needed
to
Post by Stephen Graham
concentrate resources on a few important things.
Was it the last time one could describe the US military as "
cash-strapped"?
Between WW2 and the Korean War, Congress took the stance that they'd
just bought all this really expensive equipment for the Army and why
would they possibly need anything new?
Paul F Austin
2013-10-28 22:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman W
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 21:27:39 -0400, Stephen Graham
Post by Stephen Graham
Think about this in terms of the cash-strapped US Army of the
1920's and
Post by Stephen Graham
1930's. It really couldn't afford to replace everything. It needed
to
Post by Stephen Graham
concentrate resources on a few important things.
Was it the last time one could describe the US military as "
cash-strapped"?
No, the 1950s were very tight financially for every branch of service
except the Strategic Air Command. David Hackworth's _About Face_
includes his service in the 1950s after receiving a battlefield
commission during the Korean War. He went to college while on active
duty to get a degree, as a career enhancement and discussed the drastic
reductions in force that the Army was subjected to. If they were
retained at all, regulars who had received reserve commissions often had
to revert to their substantive ranks. A man might be a light colonel
today and a master sergeant tomorrow.

Paul
Chris Morton
2013-10-29 16:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman W
Was it the last time one could describe the US military as "
cash-strapped"?
Hardly. Between the end of WWII and the start of the Korean War, the US Army
was in pretty bad shape. The forces that were sent to Korea from Japan in 1950
were woefully badly equipped.

When I was in Korea in 1980-1981, I had FIVE rounds of .50BMG for a live fire
exercise.

Likewise, you may have heard of the current sequester...
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
Chris Morton
2013-10-29 16:17:23 UTC
Permalink
In article <607168697404519312.151105graham1-***@news.individual.net>,
Stephen Graham says...
Post by Stephen Graham
Think about this in terms of the cash-strapped US Army of the 1920's and
1930's. It really couldn't afford to replace everything. It needed to
concentrate resources on a few important things.
And the pre-WWI US Army was even worse off. After the plains Indians, its only
serious opponent was the Spanish army. Budgets were set accordingly.

Other than coast artillery, the US Army had almost no modern artillery pieces at
all. During WWI it had to be completely equipped from abroad, mostly with
French equipment.
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
Mario
2013-10-27 18:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't
generally considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round
which doesn't equate to a recognizable non-metric number.
The US Army in World War One picked up much of its heavier
ordnance including mortars from the French, who naturally used
the metric system.
Artillery etc caliber list in mm (partial)
37, 47, 75, 76, 81, 105, 155, 203, 305, 381

Many of them are just equal to the diameter in inches, f.ex.
305=12"
--
_____
/ o o \
\o_o_o/
news
2013-10-27 23:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Artillery etc caliber list in mm (partial)
37, 47, 75, 76, 81, 105, 155, 203, 305, 381
Many of them are just equal to the diameter in inches, f.ex.
305=12"
All metric measurements have an Imperial equivalent, and vice versa,
but it would be more accurate to say that only the last two in you list
are equivalent in round Imperial numbers.
Mario
2013-10-28 14:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
Post by Mario
Artillery etc caliber list in mm (partial)
37, 47, 75, 76, 81, 105, 155, 203, 305, 381
Many of them are just equal to the diameter in inches, f.ex.
305=12"
All metric measurements have an Imperial equivalent, and vice
versa, but it would be more accurate to say that only the last
two in you list are equivalent in round Imperial numbers.
3" = 76 mm
4" = 102 mm
5" = 127 mm
6" = 152 mm
8" = 203 mm
--
_____
/ o o \
\o_o_o/
Bill
2013-10-28 15:41:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Post by news
Post by Mario
Artillery etc caliber list in mm (partial)
37, 47, 75, 76, 81, 105, 155, 203, 305, 381
Many of them are just equal to the diameter in inches, f.ex.
305=12"
All metric measurements have an Imperial equivalent, and vice
versa, but it would be more accurate to say that only the last
two in you list are equivalent in round Imperial numbers.
3" = 76 mm
4" = 102 mm
5" = 127 mm
6" = 152 mm
8" = 203 mm
25mm is an inch and 37mm is an inch and a half...
news
2013-10-28 20:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Post by news
Post by Mario
Artillery etc caliber list in mm (partial)
37, 47, 75, 76, 81, 105, 155, 203, 305, 381
Many of them are just equal to the diameter in inches, f.ex.
305=12"
All metric measurements have an Imperial equivalent, and vice
versa, but it would be more accurate to say that only the last
two in you list are equivalent in round Imperial numbers.
3" = 76 mm
4" = 102 mm
5" = 127 mm
6" = 152 mm
8" = 203 mm
37mm = 1.456 "
47mm = 1.85"
75mm = 2.95"
81mm = 3.188"
105mm= 4.13"

My point would be that there is always a metric equivalent to an
Imperial measure, but it is not always going to be exact, and firearms
general have strict tolerance, so a couple mm's or a couple mils isn't
close enough. At any rate, you are talking calibers and the OP was about
bomb weights... which are nominal.
Michael Emrys
2013-10-28 21:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
3" = 76 mm
4" = 102 mm
5" = 127 mm
6" = 152 mm
8" = 203 mm
And it is worth noticing that 37 mm = 1.5 inches...give or take a few
thousandths.

Michael
Mario
2013-10-29 16:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
Post by Mario
3" = 76 mm
4" = 102 mm
5" = 127 mm
6" = 152 mm
8" = 203 mm
And it is worth noticing that 37 mm = 1.5 inches...give or
take a few thousandths.
1.5 inches is 38.1 mm


Anyway there is the grooves question while measuring diameter.
--
_____
/ o o \
\o_o_o/
Chris Morton
2013-10-30 15:36:52 UTC
Permalink
In article , Mario says...
Post by Mario
Anyway there is the grooves question while measuring diameter.
1. Groove to groove.
2. Land to land.
3. Groove to land.

Hence the idiosyncratic naming of the proprietary Lazzaroni sporting rifle
cartridges, which are I believe, measured groove to groove.
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
news
2013-10-28 18:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't
generally considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round
which doesn't equate to a recognizable non-metric number.
The US Army in World War One picked up much of its heavier
ordnance including mortars from the French, who naturally used
the metric system.
Artillery etc caliber list in mm (partial)
37, 47, 75, 76, 81, 105, 155, 203, 305, 381
Many of them are just equal to the diameter in inches, f.ex.
305=12"
this just points to my original point: 75mm is a well known caliber, so
is 155mm, but why would you scale up that way...it seems more logical
that it would have been 150mm. Same for the 105mm which would more
logically be 112mm
Bill
2013-10-28 18:26:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:15:50 -0400, "news"
Post by news
Post by Mario
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't
generally considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round
which doesn't equate to a recognizable non-metric number.
The US Army in World War One picked up much of its heavier
ordnance including mortars from the French, who naturally used
the metric system.
Artillery etc caliber list in mm (partial)
37, 47, 75, 76, 81, 105, 155, 203, 305, 381
Many of them are just equal to the diameter in inches, f.ex.
305=12"
this just points to my original point: 75mm is a well known caliber, so
is 155mm, but why would you scale up that way...it seems more logical
that it would have been 150mm. Same for the 105mm which would more
logically be 112mm
I seem to remember reading that they're all based on Armstrong's and
Maxim's original gun designs. These were sold all over the world and
copied.
Michael Emrys
2013-10-28 21:52:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
this just points to my original point: 75mm is a well known caliber,
so is 155mm, but why would you scale up that way...it seems more
logical that it would have been 150mm. Same for the 105mm which would
more logically be 112mm
There may be several things at work here. For one thing, for at least a
couple of centuries cannon were rated by the weight of the ball that
they threw. So what were the diameters of 3, 6, 12, 18, etc. pound balls
and the bores of their respective cannons?

Secondly, during the 20th. century, did not ordnance engineers start
with an idea of how much blast effect they desired in a weapon and what
kind of shell would have that effect? Then from that they could design
the gun that would fire it.

But I think mostly sizes were traditional, and everything was made to
fit into those traditional sizes.

Michael
Chris Morton
2013-10-29 16:19:18 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posted.olypeninternet>, Michael
Emrys says...
Post by Michael Emrys
Secondly, during the 20th. century, did not ordnance engineers start
with an idea of how much blast effect they desired in a weapon and what
kind of shell would have that effect?
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, didn't most field guns prior to, and in the early
part of WWI rely principally on shrapnel (in the strict sense of Henry
Shrapnell's design of a shell that directionally dispersed sub-projectiles)
rather than blast?
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
Michael Emrys
2013-10-29 18:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Morton
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, didn't most field guns prior to, and in the early
part of WWI rely principally on shrapnel (in the strict sense of Henry
Shrapnell's design of a shell that directionally dispersed sub-projectiles)
rather than blast?
I think that is so. I also think that it changed fairly quickly in
practice when it was discovered that fragmentation of the casing was
just about as deadly as a shrapnel round (properly so called) and was a
whole lot easier to produce.

Michael
Chris Morton
2013-10-30 15:49:41 UTC
Permalink
In article <dPadncRhkew2ZfLPnZ2dnUVZ_u-***@posted.olypeninternet>, Michael
Emrys says...
Post by Michael Emrys
I think that is so. I also think that it changed fairly quickly in
practice when it was discovered that fragmentation of the casing was
just about as deadly as a shrapnel round (properly so called) and was a
whole lot easier to produce.
Actually, I think (from my recent reading of Keegan's "The First World War")that
the greater motivation was the singular ineffectiveness of shrapnel at cutting
barbed wire obstacles.
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
Bill Shatzer
2013-10-30 05:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
There may be several things at work here. For one thing, for at least a
couple of centuries cannon were rated by the weight of the ball that
they threw. So what were the diameters of 3, 6, 12, 18, etc. pound balls
and the bores of their respective cannons?
http://www.civilwarartillery.com/shottables.htm
Michael Emrys
2013-10-30 15:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by Michael Emrys
So what were the diameters of 3, 6, 12, 18, etc. pound
balls and the bores of their respective cannons?
http://www.civilwarartillery.com/shottables.htm
Exceedingly cool! Thanks, Bill.

Michael
Paul F Austin
2013-10-28 22:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Post by Stephen Graham
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't
generally considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round
which doesn't equate to a recognizable non-metric number.
The US Army in World War One picked up much of its heavier
ordnance including mortars from the French, who naturally used
the metric system.
Artillery etc caliber list in mm (partial)
37, 47, 75, 76, 81, 105, 155, 203, 305, 381
Many of them are just equal to the diameter in inches, f.ex.
305=12"
Others were converted from their shot weight. A naval 6 pounder gun had
a bore of 57mm, an odd measure either from an inch or mm basis. I have
never quite figured out why 37mm guns were so common.

In Soviet ordnance, I read that Stalin had decreed that the numerical
designation of each gun be unique so that a harassed supply sergeant
could never ship e.g., 120mm mortar ammunition to a unit requiring 120mm
gun-howitzer ammunition.

Paul
Bill
2013-10-28 23:58:15 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 18:56:17 -0400, Paul F Austin
Post by Paul F Austin
I have
never quite figured out why 37mm guns were so common.
It's the bore diameter of the old Maxim one pound 'pom-pom' gun ...

Inch and a half...
Paul F Austin
2013-10-29 04:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 18:56:17 -0400, Paul F Austin
Post by Paul F Austin
I have
never quite figured out why 37mm guns were so common.
It's the bore diameter of the old Maxim one pound 'pom-pom' gun ...
Inch and a half...
Thanks
Chris Morton
2013-10-29 16:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
It's the bore diameter of the old Maxim one pound 'pom-pom' gun ...
The Hotchkiss rotary cannon as well.
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
Bill Shatzer
2013-10-26 04:10:20 UTC
Permalink
news wrote:

- snip -
Post by news
I also wonder about artillery rounds. I know a mortar isn't generally
considered artillery, but why have a 60mm round which doesn't equate to
a recognizable non-metric number.
The 60mm mortar was an adaption of a french design. The french of course
used the metric system and 60mm is a "round number" in metric notation.

Interestingly, the caliber of the original M1 M1A1 rocket launchers
(bazooka) were also 60mm in diameter although, unlike the mortar it was
officially designated in English measurements as the "2.36 inch Rocket
Launcher"
.
news
2013-10-25 23:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
First, were these designations accurate or nominal?
They are generally nominal, just like lumber, where a 2x4 is actually
1-1/2 x 3-1/2.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Second, did anyone consider that such weights might
not be optimal? That for a given aircraft on a given
type of mission, best results might be achieved with a
bomb of some other weight?
Bombers usually carried a mixed load.
Post by Rich Rostrom
For instance, a 500 lb bomb might be often ineffective
even if it hits, whereas a 1,000 lb bomb might load
down the aircraft, reducing range and maneuverability,
and making it substantially harder to hit the target
squarely. (I am thinking of a dive bomber here.)
In WW II is was pretty much a crap shoot when it came to bombing. That
is why operations usually involved large numbers of bombers, each
carrying a large number of bombs. Bombing accuracy was measured in
terms of the percentage of bombs dropped that landed within 1,000 feet
of the target.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Did anyone attempt or implement bomb designs of non-round
weights?
I know this was done to some degree with the super-heavy
British bombs - the "Tallboy", "Earthquake", and "Volcano".
But was this ever done anywhere else?
The bombs used by the dam busters were drums and they were dropped from
a special mechanism that spun them in order to affect the way they
skipped across the water before sinking to a pre-determined depth and
exploding.

There are reasons for bombs to be round. It is to maximize the explosive
force of the charge. They are detonated from the middle and the reaction
moves outward. As it moves out there is a larger surface area of the
explosive material exposed to the detonating force. When the bomb is
round and detonated from a core down the middle, there is an equal
distance from the detonator to the outer edge of the explosive and will
end on one side at the same time at the opposite side.

Not all explosives are round. Many anti armor munitions have a shaped
charge with a cone of metal protruding into the explosive component.
Post by Rich Rostrom
This also raises a question about the loading-out
practices of Bomber Command. It's said that BC tried
to maximize bombload, with planes often straining
their undercarriages on take-off.
Straining their undercarriages? What about the wings and the control
surfaces? Gross weight would have to be factored into the range.
Depending on the type of aircraft, bomb load might have to be reduced to
allow greater range.
Mario
2013-10-27 18:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
I note that aerial bombs were nearly always calibrated
in "round numbers": 1000 ib, 250 ib, 200 kg, etc.
This inspired a few questions.
First, were these designations accurate or nominal?
That is, was the bombs supposed to weigh exactly that
amount, or was the actual spec somewhat more or less,
and the designation just a convenient name?
I suppose there was a +/-X% tolerance.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Second, did anyone consider that such weights might
not be optimal? That for a given aircraft on a given
type of mission, best results might be achieved with a
bomb of some other weight?
I suppose that standardisation and minimal number of types was
considered more important than reaching a theoretical optimum.

There were many types of airplanes and many of them were
replaced by other types, bombs instead were the same.

Imagine a different bomb size optimised for each type of
airplane, a logistic nightmare.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Did anyone attempt or implement bomb designs of non-round
weights?
Round numbers make calculations easier.

How many times is 737 in 4500?
Hm, let me find my sliding rule... 6.1

How many times is 500 in 4500?
7.
Even a semi-drunk airman could answer that.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
;-)
--
_____
/ o o \
\o_o_o/
Michael Emrys
2013-10-27 23:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
How many times is 500 in 4500?
7.
Actually it's 9. But then, I had the advantage of not being drunk...or
alternately the disadvantage.

;)

Michael
Rich Rostrom
2013-10-28 16:37:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Post by Rich Rostrom
Second, did anyone consider that such weights might
not be optimal?
I suppose that standardisation and minimal number of types was
considered more important than reaching a theoretical optimum.
... Imagine a different bomb size optimised for each type of
airplane, a logistic nightmare.
Which is more important, logistical
efficiency or winning the battle?

Which is more costly, having a few
extra clerks, or not sinking an
enemy vessel?

Letting the convenience of "round numbers"
determine design of weapons or other
equipment is letting the tail wag the dog.

Or so it seems to me.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Michael Emrys
2013-10-28 21:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Which is more important, logistical efficiency or winning the
battle?
Without logistical efficiency, winning the battle in the modern age
becomes a lot harder. It might even become impossible.

Michael
Chris Morton
2013-10-29 16:20:46 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posted.olypeninternet>, Michael
Emrys says...
Post by Michael Emrys
Without logistical efficiency, winning the battle in the modern age
becomes a lot harder. It might even become impossible.
Witness the Japanese and their literal plethora of rifle caliber ammunition
types, to include:

.303 British
7.92x57mm Mauser
6.5x50SRmm
7.7x58mm
7.7x58SRmm
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
Rich Rostrom
2013-10-29 16:32:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Emrys
Which is more important, logistical efficiency or winning the
battle?
Without logistical efficiency, winning the battle in the modern age
becomes a lot harder. It might even become impossible.
True - there is a continual trade-off.

At one extreme - the British forces defeated
at Isandhlwana because of their very restrictive
methods for distributing ammunition.

At the other extreme - the Luftwaffe putting
a handful of Me 262s into the air at enormous
cost.

Some battles or campaigns end up like a horse
that didn't quite get over a fence.

Operation SHINGLE for instance. Lucas could have
pushed deep inland from the Anzio beachhead as there
were no German forces to resist. Instead he cautiously
decided not to advance until his forces were in full
strength and supply. This allowed the Germans to
contain the landing force for several months of
stalement.

But some historians have suggested that if Lucas had
ordered a bold advance, the Allied troops would have
been spread out thin and would have been crushed by
the German counterattack.

There isn't always a good answer.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Geoffrey Sinclair
2013-10-28 16:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
I note that aerial bombs were nearly always calibrated
in "round numbers": 1000 ib, 250 ib, 200 kg, etc.
Slightly off reply, the conversion factor is 2.54 cm to the inch, with the
proviso the US in WWII had a slightly different measure of distance so
a statute mile is 5,280 feet or 5,279.9894 U.S. survey feet. It mattered
when it came to precision parts.
Post by Rich Rostrom
This inspired a few questions.
First, were these designations accurate or nominal?
Accurate or nominal depending on the bomb.
Post by Rich Rostrom
That is, was the bombs supposed to weigh exactly that
amount, or was the actual spec somewhat more or less,
and the designation just a convenient name?
A convenient name sometimes and accurate other times.
Post by Rich Rostrom
From Roger Freeman, Mighty Eighth War Manual. AP = Armour
Piercing, SAP = Semi Armour Piercing (Bomber Command dropped
quite a few of these on oil refineries which gives an idea about how
strong some of the structures were considered), Frag = Fragmentation,
GP= General Purpose, IB Indendiary bomb.

Table is designation, nominal weight, actual weight, both in pounds, with
the note there were always slight variations. I am unsure how much
difference there was in the weights of the various explosives used as
fillings.

M30 GP / 100 / 100
M31 GP / 300 / 260
M34 GP / 2000 / 2050
M38A1 Practice / 100 / 100
M41 Frag / 20 / 20
M43 GP / 500 / 510
M44 GP / 1000 / 965
M47A1 IB / 100 / 120
M47A2 IB / 100 / 100
M50A1 IB / 4 / 3.75
M52 IB / 2 / 2
M56 GP / 4000 / 4201
M57 GP / 250 / 260
M58 SAP / 500 / 500
M59 SAP / 1000 / 995
M66 GP / 2000 / 2050
M69 IB / 6 /6
M76 IB / 500 / 470
M81 Frag / 260 / 260
MK1 AP / 1600 / 1590
Post by Rich Rostrom
Second, did anyone consider that such weights might
not be optimal? That for a given aircraft on a given
type of mission, best results might be achieved with a
bomb of some other weight?
Yes, but it comes down to how flexible a bomb bay the aircraft
had, IB generally took up more room than HE which in turn
took up more room than AP of similar weights.

In WWII the B-17 bomb bay had been designed to take 12,800
pounds of 1,600 pound AP bombs, it meant the maximum load
of HE bombs was around 6,000 pounds. Same for the B-24.

It is not only bomb weight, it is also how flammable the target
is, how strong it is and so on.
Post by Rich Rostrom
For instance, a 500 lb bomb might be often ineffective
even if it hits, whereas a 1,000 lb bomb might load
down the aircraft, reducing range and maneuverability,
and making it substantially harder to hit the target
squarely. (I am thinking of a dive bomber here.)
The "optimum" size might be, say, 787 lb.
Simply put nobody at the time had any real ability to do this
sort of calculation and in any case the precision needed to
use such weights was not there. Even today the warhead
required depends on the target.
Post by Rich Rostrom
With heavy bombers in level bombing... the bomber has
a bomb bay of fixed dimensions with a fixed number of
shackle points. It also has a given engine power and
resulting paylaad. One might load out with that number
of 250 lb bombs, and find that the plane could handle
more bombload. But 500 lb bombs would be too much; a
"middleweight" bomb would be wanted.
No, you would put in a mixture of 250 and 500 pound bombs,
accepting the increase in error due to the different ballistics.

The Lancasters involved in the raid on the night of 2 December
1944, 86 assessed as attacking, they dropped 86 4,000
pound bombs (47 HC, 37 M2), 269 1,000 pound MC, 18
1,000 pound GP, 49 US 1,000 pound, 152 US 1,000 pound
SAP, 182 500 pound MC, 148 500 pound GP, 20 US 500
pound, 4 US 500 pound SAP. No incendiary.

HC has more explosive than MC which has more explosive
than GP.

So the nominal average bomb load was a 4,000 pound, 5.7
1,000 pound, and 4 500 pound. If you multiply the bombs
by their official weight you end up with 450.4464 long tons,
versus the official tonnage of 450.4, so the bomb tonnages
you see published are probably using the official weights,
not the actual ones.

On the 4th the bomb load was a similar mixture of 4,000, 1,000
and 500 pound HE plus a mixture of 4 pound, 500 pound and
750 pound incendiaries, the latter two being clusters of 4 pound
bombs (106 and 158 respectively). The pathfinder Lancasters
also had 1,000 pound and 250 pound marker bombs. All up
incendiaries accounted for around 20% of the bomb load,
which averaged 11,102 pounds per aircraft credited with
attacking.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Did anyone attempt or implement bomb designs of non-round
weights?
Sort of. Remember the bomb had to physically fit into the bomb
bay in optimal numbers, then the aircraft has to lift the bomb load,
asking for specific special bombs for your aircraft is setting up
a logistics problem as well as limiting flexibility given there are
so many different types of targets.

So the air forces developed a series of bombs and the aircraft
were expected to lift some or all of them. Bigger aircraft
allowed for bigger bombs and mixed loads.
Post by Rich Rostrom
I know this was done to some degree with the super-heavy
British bombs - the "Tallboy", "Earthquake", and "Volcano".
Tallboy was designed within the parameters of the Lancaster of
1943, specifically the bomb bay size and maximum weight lift
with enough fuel to go somewhere useful. Plus of course the
ability of the materials available to build a bomb that would
penetrate deeply without breaking up and then explode. The
Grand Slam required removal of equipment and use of overload
weights.
Post by Rich Rostrom
But was this ever done anywhere else?
There is a two way street, aircraft designed to take existing
weapons and new weapons designed exploiting the capabilities
of the aircraft.

The incendiary clusters used by the Lancasters above were a
wartime design taking into account the capabilities of the
bombers.
Post by Rich Rostrom
This also raises a question about the loading-out
practices of Bomber Command. It's said that BC tried
to maximize bombload, with planes often straining
their undercarriages on take-off. How did they adjust
bombloads, and how "fine" could they tweak? Were small
adjustments made in fuel load instead?
Fuel loads were calculated according to track miles plus a fixed
reserve, after that came what was available for a bomb load plus
any weight safety margin for things like take off and altitude
performance.

In gallons the Lancaster fuel load was track miles divided by 0.95
plus a 200 gallon reserve. Given the weather forecasting and the
logistics of landing large numbers of aircraft when the weather
turned bad there was no fine tuning of fuel loads, just the basic
rules.

At 1,200 track miles the Lancaster had about 14,150 pounds
available for bomb loads, the Halifax III 9,260, the Halifax II
8,320, the Stirling 6,625.

All air forces tried to maximise the bomb loads and post war the
air forces rarely if ever flew their aircraft to the weight limits
routinely used in wartime.

The main effect of extra bombs on range is they reduce the
fuel load you can carry, extra internal weight does not do a
great deal to range for a given fuel load. It does make a
difference to the altitude you can fly at. So number 1
Group Bomber Command tended to load more bombs on
its aircraft, which meant they flew lower and resulted in some
crews for a time jettisoning some of the load in order to fly
higher and therefore safer.

It looks like at times the 8th AF put fewer bombs on its B-24s
even though the B-24 had a better load at distance than the B-17,
in order to allow the B-24s to fly higher.

In summary no real fine tuning, the bomb loads depended on
the target and the capabilities of the aircraft used, living largely
within the standardised bomb sizes available but also using
new designs that the bombers could then carry and also affected
by the state of the defences.

Or in short, it depends, within the constraints of requiring the degree
of standardisation needed by mass production and mass consumption.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Rich Rostrom
2013-10-29 17:12:08 UTC
Permalink
"Geoffrey Sinclair" <***@froggy.com.au> wrote:

Splendid response - thanks very much for a lot
of great information.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Table is designation, nominal weight, actual weight, both in pounds, with
the note there were always slight variations. I am unsure how much
difference there was in the weights of the various explosives used as
fillings...
Hmm - up to 20% variance from nominal, which
suggests some tweaking for performance. But
here's the "spectrum" for GP bombs:

100, 260, 510, 965, 2050, 4201.

It seems to be a pretty tight to a "round number"
scale.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In WWII the B-17 bomb bay had been designed to take 12,800
pounds of 1,600 pound AP bombs,
I've seen mention of that 12,800 max load. I had thought
in included external bombs for very short range missions.

My dad said the standard load on his missions was always
six 500 lb bombs.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Rich Rostrom
The "optimum" size might be, say, 787 lb.
Simply put nobody at the time had any real ability to do this
sort of calculation...
Well with dive bombers I was thinking that the optimum
might be arrived at through actual test flights. I.e.
the test pilots come back and say "The ship is very hard
to handle with that 1,000 ib cookie - that's why we keep
missing. But 500 lb is dead easy."
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
No, you would put in a mixture of 250 and 500 pound bombs,
accepting the increase in error due to the different ballistics.
I can see where the British would do this, but did
the USAF? Or where it would be done on night raids,
but not day raids.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The Lancasters involved in the raid on the night of 2 December
1944, 86 assessed as attacking, they dropped 86 4,000
pound bombs (47 HC, 37 M2), 269 1,000 pound MC, 18
1,000 pound GP, 49 US 1,000 pound, 152 US 1,000 pound
SAP, 182 500 pound MC, 148 500 pound GP, 20 US 500
pound, 4 US 500 pound SAP. No incendiary.
What a mix! And I note they had US-supplied bombs which
they counted separately. That seems like an extra
logistical complication. But perhaps some squadrons used
all the US bombs. One wonders why four (and only four)
US SAP. That can't have been for any specific effect.

Or did they just load up with as much as they could
carry of whatever was on hand?
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
So the nominal average bomb load was a 4,000 pound, 5.7
1,000 pound, and 4 500 pound.
That implies some carried different loads.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In summary no real fine tuning...
Depends on one's idea of "fine tuning". It would appear
that BC adjusted the bombloads (by mixing sizes) to get
within a few percent of max load. It does make sense
that fuel load would be calculated first and bombload
adjusted afterward.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Geoffrey Sinclair
2013-10-30 15:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Splendid response - thanks very much for a lot
of great information.
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Table is designation, nominal weight, actual weight, both in pounds, with
the note there were always slight variations. I am unsure how much
difference there was in the weights of the various explosives used as
fillings...
Hmm - up to 20% variance from nominal, which
suggests some tweaking for performance.
Or simply the restrictions on coming up with a bomb that would not shatter
upon impact but would blow apart satisfactorily, plus variations in the
density of the explosives. Then add tweaking for what performance, the
aircraft available at the time of the bomb design?

It is really not a good idea to have things vary too much from the nominal
weight, 20% of say 6,000 pounds would be something to worry about on
take off.
Post by Rich Rostrom
But
100, 260, 510, 965, 2050, 4201.
It seems to be a pretty tight to a "round number"
scale.
They were meant to be round numbers as the designations show.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In WWII the B-17 bomb bay had been designed to take 12,800
pounds of 1,600 pound AP bombs,
I've seen mention of that 12,800 max load. I had thought
in included external bombs for very short range missions.
No, maximum load for the F and G is put at 9,600 pounds internal,
those 1,600 pound bombs again, and two 4,000 pound bombs
externally, total 17,600 pounds.

The external racks were used occasionally, without them as noted
the maximum internal HE load was around 6,000 pounds.
Post by Rich Rostrom
My dad said the standard load on his missions was always
six 500 lb bombs.
Six bombs would be 3,000 pounds, a medium bomber.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Rich Rostrom
The "optimum" size might be, say, 787 lb.
Simply put nobody at the time had any real ability to do this
sort of calculation...
Well with dive bombers I was thinking that the optimum
might be arrived at through actual test flights. I.e.
the test pilots come back and say "The ship is very hard
to handle with that 1,000 ib cookie - that's why we keep
missing. But 500 lb is dead easy."
Hard to handle would usually relate to take off performance
as well as altitude performance, certainly heavily loaded aircraft
perform worse but simply put it will have little effect on dive
bomber accuracy. The heavier bombs have less dispersal.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
No, you would put in a mixture of 250 and 500 pound bombs,
accepting the increase in error due to the different ballistics.
I can see where the British would do this, but did
the USAF? Or where it would be done on night raids,
but not day raids.
The USAAF tended to go with uniform loads, for dispersal purposes
at the same time it did do mixed loads, for example HE and incendiary.

97th BG 19 August 1942, 22 attacking, 108 600 pound HE and 41
250 pound incendiary.

27 August 1942, 7 attacking, 12 1,000 pound and 28 500 pound HE.

5 September 1942, 31 attacking, 32 1,100 pound, 43 1,000 pound,
123 500 pound (all GP HE), 16 250 pound incendiary.

The USAAF was more than just the heavy bombers.

19 December 1943, 320th BG, B-26, 32 aircraft attacking dropped
95 500 pound demo and 95 500 pound RDX bombs, which should
mean little difference in the ballistics.

The 9th AF B-26 units are credited with dropping the following bomb
types over the course of the 1944 and 1945 campaigns, weights in
pounds,

HE
2000 GP, 1600 GP, 1100 GP, 1100 Demo, 1000 GP, 1000 Comp B,
1000 SAP, 600 GP, 500 GP, 500 Comp B, 300 GP, 250 GP,
250 Demo, 150 GP, 100 GP, 100 Demo, 100 D/A

Frag
500, 260, 120, 6 x 20, 100

Incendiary,
500 IC, 500 IB, 250 TI, 100 WP, 100 IB

How many were dropped in mixed loads is unknown.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
The Lancasters involved in the raid on the night of 2 December
1944, 86 assessed as attacking, they dropped 86 4,000
pound bombs (47 HC, 37 M2), 269 1,000 pound MC, 18
1,000 pound GP, 49 US 1,000 pound, 152 US 1,000 pound
SAP, 182 500 pound MC, 148 500 pound GP, 20 US 500
pound, 4 US 500 pound SAP. No incendiary.
What a mix! And I note they had US-supplied bombs which
they counted separately. That seems like an extra
logistical complication.
The allies had a bomb shortage in 1944/45 which is not surprising
when you look at the tonnages being dropped, and SAP bombs
were proposed as normal load to help.

The bomb loads are from a report that goes into great detail about
the bombs dropped, so for example for 4,000 pound bombs, there
was the HC, MC, M2, GP and RDX types.
Post by Rich Rostrom
But perhaps some squadrons used
all the US bombs. One wonders why four (and only four)
US SAP. That can't have been for any specific effect.
The US bombs had tails that limited the number that the RAF
aircraft could carry, that is they could carry more British
design bombs of the same weight and characteristics, a project
to deliver new tails did happen but not in enough numbers.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Or did they just load up with as much as they could
carry of whatever was on hand?
In late 1944 it was a mixture of what they wanted, like a 4,000 pound
bomb each, and then what was available and what the target was
deemed to require.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
So the nominal average bomb load was a 4,000 pound, 5.7
1,000 pound, and 4 500 pound.
That implies some carried different loads.
Yes.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
In summary no real fine tuning...
Depends on one's idea of "fine tuning". It would appear
that BC adjusted the bombloads (by mixing sizes) to get
within a few percent of max load. It does make sense
that fuel load would be calculated first and bombload
adjusted afterward.
In the way you were describing it there was no real fine tuning.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Rich Rostrom
2013-10-30 17:16:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Rich Rostrom
My dad said the standard load on his missions was always
six 500 lb bombs.
Six bombs would be 3,000 pounds, a medium bomber.
My dad flew in B-17s - there's absolutely
no doubt of that. I may recall incorrectly
what he said, or he may have recalled
incorrectly - it was 50 years later.

Also, I don't think he meant to say that
the load was the same for absolutely every
mission. He flew on the "carpet bombing"
mission for Operation Cobra, which was much
shorter range, and I would expect a larger
bombload for that.

IIRC, the missions we had been discussing
were to Berlin, and at that range maybe the
max load was smaller. I.e. they could not
carry 6 x 1000 lb, so they carried 6 x 500 lb.

Or maybe (???) it was 8 bombs?
I wish I'd taken notes.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Michael Emrys
2013-10-30 18:02:23 UTC
Permalink
IIRC, the missions we had been discussing were to Berlin, and at that
range maybe the max load was smaller. I.e. they could not carry 6 x
1000 lb, so they carried 6 x 500 lb.
I recall many years ago reading that a common bomb load for the B-17 was
6 X 500 lbs. This would have been for missions somewhat deep into
Germany. Missions to the Ruhr could have carried more. IIRC, for
missions to Berlin and beyond, extra fuel tanks were carried in the bomb
bays.

Michael
Paul F Austin
2013-10-30 23:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Rich Rostrom
My dad said the standard load on his missions was always
six 500 lb bombs.
Six bombs would be 3,000 pounds, a medium bomber.
My dad flew in B-17s - there's absolutely
no doubt of that. I may recall incorrectly
what he said, or he may have recalled
incorrectly - it was 50 years later.
Also, I don't think he meant to say that
the load was the same for absolutely every
mission. He flew on the "carpet bombing"
mission for Operation Cobra, which was much
shorter range, and I would expect a larger
bombload for that.
That brings up the difference between "medium" bombers and "heavy"
bombers. In terms of bomb loads, a B-17 could accommodate 4000 pounds
and so could a B-26 (neglecting overload bomb loads for short missions).
The real distinction was in range. A B-26 with 3000 pounds of bombs had
a range of 1150 miles while a B17 with the same load could go somewhat
farther, 1360 miles.

Paul
Bill
2013-10-30 23:37:57 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 19:00:22 -0400, Paul F Austin
Post by Paul F Austin
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Rich Rostrom
My dad said the standard load on his missions was always
six 500 lb bombs.
Six bombs would be 3,000 pounds, a medium bomber.
My dad flew in B-17s - there's absolutely
no doubt of that. I may recall incorrectly
what he said, or he may have recalled
incorrectly - it was 50 years later.
Also, I don't think he meant to say that
the load was the same for absolutely every
mission. He flew on the "carpet bombing"
mission for Operation Cobra, which was much
shorter range, and I would expect a larger
bombload for that.
That brings up the difference between "medium" bombers and "heavy"
bombers. In terms of bomb loads, a B-17 could accommodate 4000 pounds
and so could a B-26 (neglecting overload bomb loads for short missions).
The real distinction was in range. A B-26 with 3000 pounds of bombs had
a range of 1150 miles while a B17 with the same load could go somewhat
farther, 1360 miles.
So a Mosquito was a heavy bomber?
Paul F Austin
2013-10-31 04:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 19:00:22 -0400, Paul F Austin
Post by Paul F Austin
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Rich Rostrom
My dad said the standard load on his missions was always
six 500 lb bombs.
Six bombs would be 3,000 pounds, a medium bomber.
My dad flew in B-17s - there's absolutely
no doubt of that. I may recall incorrectly
what he said, or he may have recalled
incorrectly - it was 50 years later.
Also, I don't think he meant to say that
the load was the same for absolutely every
mission. He flew on the "carpet bombing"
mission for Operation Cobra, which was much
shorter range, and I would expect a larger
bombload for that.
That brings up the difference between "medium" bombers and "heavy"
bombers. In terms of bomb loads, a B-17 could accommodate 4000 pounds
and so could a B-26 (neglecting overload bomb loads for short missions).
The real distinction was in range. A B-26 with 3000 pounds of bombs had
a range of 1150 miles while a B17 with the same load could go somewhat
farther, 1360 miles.
So a Mosquito was a heavy bomber?
By the Mighty Eighth Air Force's standards, apparently. The Mosquito was
a miracle of engineering.

Paul
news
2013-11-01 17:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul F Austin
That brings up the difference between "medium" bombers and "heavy"
bombers. In terms of bomb loads, a B-17 could accommodate 4000 pounds
and so could a B-26 (neglecting overload bomb loads for short missions).
The real distinction was in range. A B-26 with 3000 pounds of bombs had
a range of 1150 miles while a B17 with the same load could go somewhat
farther, 1360 miles.
That would make the B17 a medium weight compared to the Lancaster. The
B17 could carry a bombload of 8000 lb on a raid less than 400 miles and
was reduced to 4500 lb on longer range operations. The Lancaster had a
range of 2500 miles and could carry a load of 14,000 lb., and with
modifications, could carry a 22,000 lb. Grand Slam.

Dave Smith
Paul F Austin
2013-11-01 22:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
Post by Paul F Austin
That brings up the difference between "medium" bombers and "heavy"
bombers. In terms of bomb loads, a B-17 could accommodate 4000 pounds
and so could a B-26 (neglecting overload bomb loads for short missions).
The real distinction was in range. A B-26 with 3000 pounds of bombs had
a range of 1150 miles while a B17 with the same load could go somewhat
farther, 1360 miles.
That would make the B17 a medium weight compared to the Lancaster. The
B17 could carry a bombload of 8000 lb on a raid less than 400 miles and
was reduced to 4500 lb on longer range operations. The Lancaster had a
range of 2500 miles and could carry a load of 14,000 lb., and with
modifications, could carry a 22,000 lb. Grand Slam.
Dave Smith
Yep, Lanc were in a different class from a bombload standpoint. OTOH,
they made no pretense of being "flying fortresses". 10 mil aluminum
"armor" on the B17s. Yeah, right.

Paul
Rich Rostrom
2013-11-02 06:09:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
That would make the B17 a medium weight compared to the Lancaster. The
B17 could carry a bombload of 8000 lb on a raid less than 400 miles and
was reduced to 4500 lb on longer range operations. The Lancaster had a
range of 2500 miles and could carry a load of 14,000 lb.
Let's compare the whole suite and see what falls where.

B-17G: 4,800 HP, 54,000 lb loaded, 2,000 mi range with 6,000 lb bombload
B-24J: 4,800 HP, 55,000 lb, 2,100 mi range with 5,000 lb bombload
B-29: 8,800 HP, 120,000 lb, 3,250 mi range with 20,000 lb bombload

Stirling: 5,500 HP, 59,400 lb, 2,330 mi range with 3,500 lb bombload
Halifax III: 6,460 HP, 54,400 lb, 1,860 mi range with 5,000 lb bombload
Lancaster: 5,120 HP, 68,000 lb, ???? mi range with 14,000 lb bombload

Thus the Lancaster was somewhat larger than the B-17, B-24, Stirling,
and Halifax. Somehow it was able to carry much larger bombloads than
any of them. But they're all "heavy bombers".

It was however still much smaller than the B-29.

The B-26: 3,800 HP, 37,000 lbs, 1,150 mi with 4,000 lb bombload

Much smaller and shorter range.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Geoffrey Sinclair
2013-11-03 18:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by news
That would make the B17 a medium weight compared to the Lancaster. The
B17 could carry a bombload of 8000 lb on a raid less than 400 miles and
was reduced to 4500 lb on longer range operations. The Lancaster had a
range of 2500 miles and could carry a load of 14,000 lb.
Let's compare the whole suite and see what falls where.
There are a range of figures published, ranges depend on altitude as well as
fuel and bomb loads, and a 1943 B-17G or 1942 Lancaster I was different
to a 1945 one. Also engine ratings can be given at different heights.
Post by Rich Rostrom
B-17G: 4,800 HP, 54,000 lb loaded, 2,000 mi range with 6,000 lb bombload
B-17G 36,135 empty, maximum 65,500 pounds.

War Emergency Power 5,520 HP at 20,000 feet, but only from mid 1944 on.
Post by Rich Rostrom
B-24J: 4,800 HP, 55,000 lb, 2,100 mi range with 5,000 lb bombload
B24H/J 35,500 empty, 65,500 maximum, 2,100 miles, 8,800 pounds of bombs.
Post by Rich Rostrom
B-29: 8,800 HP, 120,000 lb, 3,250 mi range with 20,000 lb bombload
In another weight class, the range with load is too high, for the war the
average
B-29 bomb load was 11,640 pounds, in July 1945 it was just under 14,000
pounds.

Another quote I found is too low, 3,250 miles with 5,000 pounds at 25,000
feet.

It looks likely the bomb load was 8,000 pounds at that range and height
according to the USAAF official history.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Stirling: 5,500 HP, 59,400 lb, 2,330 mi range with 3,500 lb bombload
Tare weight (about 2 tons more than empty), 43,200 maximum 70,000,
2,010 miles with 3,500 pounds of bombs. The mark III had 6,600 HP.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Halifax III: 6,460 HP, 54,400 lb, 1,860 mi range with 5,000 lb bombload
Tare weight 38,240, maximum 65,000 pounds, 6,600 HP.
1,985 miles with 7,000 pounds of bombs.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Lancaster: 5,120 HP, 68,000 lb, ???? mi range with 14,000 lb bombload
Lancaster I in 1942, 29,580 empty, 60,000 pounds maximum, 5,120 HP.
Lancaster I in 1944, 31,642 empty, 65,000 pounds maximum, 6,440 HP

1,730 miles with 14,000 pounds of bombs, 2,530 with 7,000 pounds of bombs.

Overload maximum was 72,000 pounds, for dropping 22,000 pound bombs,
and 1,000 pounds was taken off the tare weight (empty plus fixed military
load)
for those aircraft.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Thus the Lancaster was somewhat larger than the B-17, B-24, Stirling,
and Halifax.
Actually no, the normal maximum weights of all of the mid war 4 engined
allied bombers were about the same, all of them underwent changes that
enabled them to take off with heavier loads, the Lancaster is given as an
example.

So you need to compare things at the same time during the war.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Somehow it was able to carry much larger bombloads than
any of them.
The Lancaster seems to have been much more fuel efficient.
Post by Rich Rostrom
But they're all "heavy bombers".
In the late 1930's the RAF called Wellingtons heavy bombers.

As well as the changes in letter designations in September 1947 the USAAF
classification of bombers was changed
Designation Old // New
Very Heavy Bomber B-29, B-35, B-36, B-50 // none
Heavy Bomber B-17, B-24 // B-35, B-36
Medium Bomber B-25, B-26, B-42, B-43 // B-29, B-50
Light Bomber A-20, A-24, A-26, B-45 // A-20, 24, 26, B-17, 24, 25, 26, 42,
43, 45

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Geoffrey Sinclair
2013-10-31 14:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Post by Rich Rostrom
My dad said the standard load on his missions was always
six 500 lb bombs.
Six bombs would be 3,000 pounds, a medium bomber.
My dad flew in B-17s - there's absolutely
no doubt of that. I may recall incorrectly
what he said, or he may have recalled
incorrectly - it was 50 years later.
I suspect an incorrect recall, the average heavy bomber load for the
8th and 15th AF over the course of the war was over 5,000 pounds.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Also, I don't think he meant to say that
the load was the same for absolutely every
mission. He flew on the "carpet bombing"
mission for Operation Cobra, which was much
shorter range, and I would expect a larger
bombload for that.
The 25 July 1944 raid, 843 effective B-17 sorties dropped 1723.1 tons
of HE, around 4,100 pounds average load.

The B-24s that day averaged 5,100 pounds.

As noted the US heavies were space limited in how much HE bombs they
could carry internally.
Post by Rich Rostrom
IIRC, the missions we had been discussing
were to Berlin, and at that range maybe the
max load was smaller. I.e. they could not
carry 6 x 1000 lb, so they carried 6 x 500 lb.
The 6 March 1944 raid on Berlin the 1st division B-17s, 248 effective
sorties dropped 459.5 short tons of HE, or 3,700 pounds per bomber
and 109.5 tons of incendiary bombs, an average load, in round terms
of 4,600 pounds.

A year later the loads were around 4,800 to 4,900 pounds.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Or maybe (???) it was 8 bombs?
I wish I'd taken notes.
Easier to think of than do, 8 bombs is often quoted as the classic load.

The early B-17F as used by the 8th AF had a combat radius of 320
miles, the Tokyo tanks made a big difference when fitted.

The early B-17F was rated as having a 1,730 mile range with
6,000 pounds of bombs. The later versions 2,810 miles with
the same bomb load.

The 6 September 1943 mission was when the early B-17s ended
up having fuel problems, 22 being lost to a lack of fuel.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Chris Morton
2013-10-29 15:00:00 UTC
Permalink
In article
<rrostrom.21stcentury-***@mx05.eternal-september.org>, Rich
Rostrom says...
Post by Rich Rostrom
First, were these designations accurate or nominal?
I would say nominal, just as "caliber" (bore size, as opposed to barrel length
of artillery) is often nominal (measured at lands, versus measured at grooves,
etc.).

It depends upon how you calculate the weight.

Total weight of ordnance?
Weight of filling?
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
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