Research leads sought...

[Rich Rostrom]

I want to find more detail about a certain incident.

It happened during the second day of the battle of
Gazala.

On the night of May 26-27, Rommel led the Afrika Korps
through the desert south of Bir Hakeim, around the
left end of the British line. On May 27, He sent 15th
and 21st Panzer Divisions north and 90th Light to the
northeast, while the Italian XX Corps besieged Bir
Hakeim. The whole region became a chaotic melee.

Rommel roamed through the battle with his staff group
in a few command cars.

At dawn on May 28, Rommel's staff group was camped at
Bir El Harmat, about 15 km NNE of Bir Hakeim. Shortly
after dawn, some British tanks approached and fired on
them, presumably at long range. There were shellbursts
near the vehicles, and the windscreen of Rommel's
vehicle was shattered. But the British scored no hits,
and the staff group quickly drove away. The British
also left the area, and Rommel's men regrouped.

I want to find out more about this incident. In
particular, I would like to identify the British tank
force involved, and find out what sort of tanks they
had. Also, I would like to find out from what
direction they approached the staff group, how close
they were when they fired, and why they broke off and
went away.

The story is recounted as above in "The Rommel
Papers", with no additional details. ISTM that the
incident might have been recorded in the action
reports of the British forces. But since the British
were badly defeated a few days later, with most of
their forces routed or captured, those reports may
never have been set down or filed. Indeed, the tanks
may have been from 7th Armoured Division, whose HQ was
overrun the day before.

Still, when the story appeared in "The Rommel Papers",
it seems possible that some British historian or
division/regiment chronicler could have decided to
track down the participants on their side. That would
have been in 1982, when many survivors of the action
would have been alive.

How would I find out if that was ever done?

Also, as a first step, I would like to locate accounts
of the battle on the British side that have detail
down to the actions of individual battalions. The
accounts I have been able to locate so far don't even
specify what brigades or divisions were in action in
that area on that day. Do such accounts exist?

Those accounts might at least identify which units
those tanks _could_ have been from; and then I could
look for regiment/battalion histories that might have
a personal account.

Any pointers would be gratefully followed up on, to the
limit of my resources.

[Geoff Barnard]

Hello,

Just had a quick look at some sources I have to hand, however, most of my
material is Normandy onwards, I don't have so much on the desert war.

Firstly, I've got a copy of 'The Rommel Papers', and the account there does
not seem exactly as you relate. I don't see any reference to the British
tanks approaching, merely being observed moving to the NW (i.e. NOT towards
Rommel), and British tanks firing at him. I suspect that he was being
fired upon by tanks covering the flank of the advance NW.

Another problem is that this description does not match for what the likely
units were doing on the 28th, but DOES match what their war diary reports
for the 29th.

The likely units are the armoured units of the 1st Amd Div, i.e. the 22nd
Amd Bde comprising 2nd RGH, 2nd and 3rd CLY. These units were each
equipped with 24 Grants and 20 Honeys (M3 tank and M3 Light tank). Hence
the HE coming from the tanks (most British mfg tanks at this time fired AP
only, not much HE).

On the 28th, these units were static. On the 29th, they did move towards
Bir el Harmat, and were then redirected towards what seemed like a greater
threat towards the NW.

You can see war diaries for these units at www.warlinks.com/armour/.
Interesting reading.

Interesting that the activity described by the British units for the 29th
has a lot of similarity with the description by Rommel for the 28th??

Note that the British reports suggest they had no idea what/who they were
firing at, merely enemy.

In any event, I understand that the 7th Amd Div was pretty reduced by this
time, and was pretty much ineffective, and HQ-less? I do have the history
of 11th Hussars, and that suggests that 7th Amd wasn't doing much by the
28th.

I'll keep digging?

Geoff Barnard

Post by Rich Rostrom
I want to find more detail about a certain incident.
It happened during the second day of the battle of
Gazala.
On the night of May 26-27, Rommel led the Afrika Korps
through the desert south of Bir Hakeim, around the
left end of the British line. On May 27, He sent 15th
and 21st Panzer Divisions north and 90th Light to the
northeast, while the Italian XX Corps besieged Bir
Hakeim. The whole region became a chaotic melee.
Rommel roamed through the battle with his staff group
in a few command cars.
At dawn on May 28, Rommel's staff group was camped at
Bir El Harmat, about 15 km NNE of Bir Hakeim. Shortly
after dawn, some British tanks approached and fired on
them, presumably at long range. There were shellbursts
near the vehicles, and the windscreen of Rommel's
vehicle was shattered. But the British scored no hits,
and the staff group quickly drove away. The British
also left the area, and Rommel's men regrouped.
I want to find out more about this incident. In
particular, I would like to identify the British tank
force involved, and find out what sort of tanks they
had. Also, I would like to find out from what
direction they approached the staff group, how close
they were when they fired, and why they broke off and
went away.
The story is recounted as above in "The Rommel
Papers", with no additional details. ISTM that the
incident might have been recorded in the action
reports of the British forces. But since the British
were badly defeated a few days later, with most of
their forces routed or captured, those reports may
never have been set down or filed. Indeed, the tanks
may have been from 7th Armoured Division, whose HQ was
overrun the day before.
Still, when the story appeared in "The Rommel Papers",
it seems possible that some British historian or
division/regiment chronicler could have decided to
track down the participants on their side. That would
have been in 1982, when many survivors of the action
would have been alive.
How would I find out if that was ever done?
Also, as a first step, I would like to locate accounts
of the battle on the British side that have detail
down to the actions of individual battalions. The
accounts I have been able to locate so far don't even
specify what brigades or divisions were in action in
that area on that day. Do such accounts exist?
Those accounts might at least identify which units
those tanks _could_ have been from; and then I could
look for regiment/battalion histories that might have
a personal account.
Any pointers would be gratefully followed up on, to the
limit of my resources.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.
http://originalvelvetrevolution.com

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Geoff Barnard
Hello,
Just had a quick look at some sources I have to hand, however, most of my
material is Normandy onwards, I don't have so much on the desert war.
Firstly, I've got a copy of 'The Rommel Papers', and the account there does
not seem exactly as you relate. I don't see any reference to the British
tanks approaching, merely being observed moving to the NW (i.e. NOT towards
Rommel), and British tanks firing at him. I suspect that he was being
fired upon by tanks covering the flank of the advance NW.

This is the relevant passage from _The Rommel Papers_:

At dawn on the 28th May, I took a look round the
horizon through glasses to see what was going on in
the neighbourhood. North-east of us, there were
British forces moving in a north-westerly
direction. We still had no contact with the various
separate parts of the Panzer Army. Shortly after
dawn, British tanks opened fire on my command post,
which was located close beside the _Kampfstaffel_
and our vehicles. Shells fell all around us and the
windscreen of our command omnibus flew into
fragments Fortunately, we were able to get away in
our vehicles out of range of the British fire.

I've seen another description which mentions Rommel's
group returning to Bir el Harmat after the firing
stopped.

My supposition that British tanks approached and then
moved off is what seems to me to be a logical inference.

Rommel would not have camped in sight of British forces.
The British would have fired on German vehicles in sight.
Rommel would not have returned to Bir el Harmat if the
British were still in range and sight.
The British would have resumed firing if the Germans had
been in sight and range again. It occurs to me that this
is not necessarily true - the British tankers might have
decided to ignore a handful of non-battle vehicles.

Post by Geoff Barnard
Another problem is that this description does not match for what the likely
units were doing on the 28th, but DOES match what their war diary reports
for the 29th.

But Rommel clearly states the 28th.

Post by Geoff Barnard
The likely units are the armoured units of the 1st Amd Div, i.e. the 22nd
Amd Bde comprising 2nd RGH...

2nd Royal Gloucestershire Hussars

Post by Geoff Barnard
2nd and 3rd CLY.

2nd and 3rd County of London Yeomanry

Post by Geoff Barnard
equipped with 24 Grants and 20 Honeys (M3 tank and M3 Light tank). Hence
the HE coming from the tanks (most British mfg tanks at this time fired AP
only, not much HE).

That's _very_ useful! Though even an AP round might
have some small bursting charge?

Post by Geoff Barnard
On the 28th, these units were static. On the 29th, they did move towards
Bir el Harmat, and were then redirected towards what seemed like a greater
threat towards the NW.

But Rommel states the 28th. At dawn on the 29th, he
was SW of Bir el Harmat, where he was about to lead
the DAK's supply columns north to resupply XV and XXI
Panzer, which "went smoothly".

Post by Geoff Barnard
You can see war diaries for these units at www.warlinks.com/armour/.

I shall certainly investigate there!

Post by Geoff Barnard
Note that the British reports suggest they had no
idea what/who they were firing at, merely enemy.

Not surprising. Rommel mentions being fired on by
Italian troops while roaming the battlefield on
the 27th.

Post by Geoff Barnard
In any event, I understand that the 7th Amd Div was pretty reduced by this
time, and was pretty much ineffective, and HQ-less?

7th AD HQ was overrun on the 27th; General Messervy
was captured. (He tore off his insignia, and convinced
the Germans he was an officer's batman. The next day
he escaped, and helped reform 7th AD.)

Post by Geoff Barnard
I'll keep digging?

Thanks, but this is my project. My interest is fairly
casual, and I would not want you to expend _your_ time
and energy. (I am looking at a "what-if": Rommel taken
out of the battle on 28 May by that British attack. (My
expectation is that this would lead to Axis withdrawal.)
I want to determine how likely this was, and compose a
plausible narrative of the event.)

[David Wilma]

Rick Atkinson speaks of how much paper generated by
the U.S. Army remains unexamined. Would the British Army
have a similar body of virgin material? Even if units experienced
dislocation after an action, evidence from other units might
offer information. I researched an event in local history only to
find that the newspaper archives were destroyed in an 1889
fire. But the nearest city had plenty of first accounts available.