Discussion:
The Myth of V2 Inaccuracy and Ineffectiveness
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e***@yahoo.com.au
2006-04-20 15:33:39 UTC
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Walter Dornberger, the young Artillery officer along with Werner von
Braun is credited with being the main driving force behind The EMW A4
(i.e. V2) ballistic missile development in Germany during the second
world war.

In 1942 he claimed that at "Reichs Mark" RM40,000 that the V2
rocket was a cheaper way of delivering explosives than a two engine
Luftwaffe bomber that cost RM1,500,000 to build and train the crew for
but lasted an average of only 6 missions over Britain. Post war
analysis suggests that the V2 cost RM120,000 but this was probably
likely to fall to RM50,000 and possibly even RM28,000. This would have
brought the cost down to similar levels to that of the complicated
BMW801 fuel injected engine used in the Fw 190 fighter.

Many of the claims of the cost of the V2 program fail to note that
major programs such as the Ju 88 for the Germans and the B-24 or B-17
program for the US had similar cost levels when both research and
development, production, factory costs, airfield defense costs and
operation are considered. It is one thing to count the unit cost of a
B-26 or B-24 and quite another to factor in air and ground crew
training costs, fuel, bombs, ammunition, research and development,
maintaining of navigation aids and air seas rescue, airfield
development and protection, administration etc. When the V2 program
is counted as being 2 billon Reichmarks these anciliary operation costs
are factored in however they are generally not when compared to a
conventional bomber. When compared 'apples to apples' its
economics are comparable to a conventional bomber. Part of the reason
may be just straight repetition of 'passed down wisdom" part is a
desire to discredit the Nazi regime. In part it may have been Albert
Speer who while an ardent rocket supporter wanted a scapegoat to
salvage the reputation of competence he cultivated.

A V2 on Dornbergers figures alone could deliver 30 or 12 missiles at
the same cost of RM1,500,000 as compared to equipping a crew of 3-4
with a two engine bomber and hoping that it and its crew would last 30
missions unscathed. Production quantities of 1500 V2 missiles per
month were considered feasible by the Penemunde development Team. The
quantities of 5500 month demanded by Hitler required using of impressed
labour. (Eg it was agreed to take some 1500 skilled French workers
were taken prisoner to relieve production bottlenecks)

Incidently actual production costs of a Ju 88 were about RM400,000 in
1939 and only about RM200,000 in 1941. The Germany industry learned
mass production on this aircraft and generally it took 2 years to gets
costs down. A B-24 cost $296 000 each (RM750,000, compared to $224 000
(RM 600,000) for the B-17.


In his 1948 Autobiography "Crusade In Europe" Dwight Eisenhower is
credited with saying that had the V2 been available in quantity 6
months earlier (than its September deployment) Overlord would probably
have been canceled. (overlord was the 6 June 1944 D-day invasion).
After investigation I find this quite believable. Dwight Eisenhower,
as head of the overlord invasion, is quite a credible source.

On the other hand the detractors of the V2 claim it was colossally
expensive, inaccurate (claiming inaccuracies of 17km or miles in some
accounts) and that when compared to an allied bomber, that it was
militarily ineffective and that it was a pure terror weapon. (All of
these have been said about strategic bombing incidentally). It is
noted that proportionally that Germany supposedly invested as much into
the V2 program as the US invested into the Manhattan Nuclear Bomb
project. (I actually question those figures)

What then are the factors that would have determined V2 effectiveness?
I will cover 4 areas.

1 Timing. Could the V2 have been ready earlier; could it have
improved? What would the effect of the weapon being available months
prior to D-day.
2 Accuracy. What did it achieve, what was the effect and what was
possible.
3 Cost effectiveness in the light of the above.
4 Accuracy compared to conventional bombing.

The V2's operational deployment was delayed by a number of factors.
These factors also prevented the weapon from maturing in accuracy and
reliability earlier in its deployment.

1 Hitler's reluctance. Max Valier who was an engineer fascinted in
rocketetry and known to Hitler from the early nazi days in Munich..
Valier had died in a Rocket explosion. Hitler regarded the missile in
the same way he regarded Zeppelins: dangerous, explosive and therefor
unusable. He was quite understandably not impressed. Hitler believed
in the Vril, an intelligent life force that protected the earth. He
imagined or rather dreamed of the V2 damaging the earth protective
mantle (more or less correct as modern studies have shown but also an
exaggeration). Hitler was silent, awkward and unresponsive upon
visiting Penemunde development facility and the opinions he expressed
were influenced by the above. That was March 1939.

As a result V2 development was restricted by lack of full high level
support. Apart from retarding the deployment one outcome may have been
that development of advanced forms radio guidance systems for the V2
was restricted (the experts were needed for radar and radio navigation
development) so the engineers had to emphasise a simple 'inertial'
system that relied on a gyroscopic accelerometer. A radio beacon
system was deployed in the latter stages of the V2s operational life
that apparently improved accuracy (by a factor of 5-10) in perhaps 25%
of late war launches but even this system was improvised and
underdeveloped compared to what was needed. (Note: inertial guidance
quickly outperformed radio based systems in all but applications with
very close transmitters).

Another delay was a Heinrich Himmler power play as the system began
showing promise. Dornberger and von Braun were both arrested for what
amounts to sabotage so as to intimidate them into taking V2 development
into Himmlers Schutz Staffel SS weapons program. The charge arose out
of relatively innocuous discussions and comments by von Braun and
Dornberger that they were ultimately developing space travel for post
war use rather than developing weapons and was intended to intimidate
them into leaving the Army and joining the SS. The arrests came at a
critical phase of V2 testing.

The V2 could have been available considerably earlier.

The targeting error claimed by Walter Dornberger and the German
guidance experts (including F Mueller who designed the original V2
system) that eventually became US citizens and worked at the Redstone
Arsenal at Huntington was a CEP of 4.5 kilometers or 2.8 miles for the
LEV-3 guidance system. It's a realistic figure that ignores gross
malfunctions.

CEP or "Circular Error Probability" is the radius of a circle in
which 50% of all munitions will fall. In the case of a Gausian
distribution (Rayleigh in 2 dimensions) of those falling outside the
CEP radius some 43% will be outside one CEP radius but within two while
7% will be outside two but within 3.. Within the CEP radius there will
be a clustering towards the aim point but it is not by much; the
distribution is almost random.

Probability of weapon falling within <r = 1-exp-1(r2/(1.414*CEP2))

(I'll tabulate these later). If the standard deviation is known
instead of the CEP then the 1.414 factor above is changed to a 2 and
the CEP is replaced by the standard deviation.

However the actual results were slightly less: British counter
intelligence had captured German agents in Britain and turned them. As
the Germans were too afraid of risking Arado 234 Jet reconnaissance
aircraft over Britain so for post strike reconnaissance analysis they
had to rely on their agents. Although the repeatability of the V2
LEV-3 guidance system may have been 4.5km there appear to have been
local factors such as gravitation, coreolis effects not fully accounted
for.

The British were selectively feeding the Germans impact points that
correlated with a correct time of impact but a selective impact points
in wrong position for the time of that impact to gradually move the V2
impact point out of London. Compensating for the British deception
brings a CEP of less than 6km not the 17km often mentioned. V2
'reliability' eventually achieved 80%-90% at its peak though it
languished as low as 43% at for some time. Many gross V2 misses were
due to guidance system malfunction; for instance a gyroscope
instability or failure that would to produce almost complete loss of
control on one axis. It is a matter of philosophy as to whether these
are included in evaluating CEP (many ended up in the sea or
countryside) but because they were so large and there were a
significant number of them they, along with 'double cross' tend to
totally distort the realistically achievable CEP.

For comparison; in WWII, a B-17 with the Norden Bomb sight had a 3,300'
(1000m) circular error probability (CEP), which by reason of energy
distribution means to absolutely guarantee a target kill a drop of
9,000 (500lb?) bombs from 1,000 bombers was needed...which put more
than 10,000 airmen at risk. In Korea, an F-84F had a 1,000' CEP, which
means to absolutely guarantee a target kill a to drop of 1,100 bombs
from 550 fighters put 550 airmen at risk. In SEA, an F-4 had a 400'
CEP, which means to absolutely guarantee a target kill a drop of 176
bombs from 30 fighters put 60 airmen at risk.

In accuracy and collateral damage high altitude bombing was not much
better in accuracy than the V2 and for the B-29 operating at is full
ceiling with 100mph cross winds at different heights it may have been
worse.

Within a few years missiles with guidance systems based on the V2's
SG-66 (an expeimental replacement for the LEV-3 generally used) but
using the same principles (eg the US Armies Redstone missile of the
1950s that was substnatially built by von Brauns team achieved a CEP
300 yards). These inertially guided missiles using much the same type
of system as the V2 would be exhibiting better accuracy than WW2
bombers and accuracy as good as the bombers of the day. (F-84F CEP 300
yards)

A Soviet SCUD-A with a crude early V2 style of boost phase only
'inertial' guidance system has a CEP of 3km at 300km. (It was
designed for nuclear use). A slightly latter model SCUD-B using a
refined but similar boost phase fully inertial system has a CEP of 450m
at 300km. (A Modern SCUD-D achieves 50m by adding in a terminal system
based on scene correlation; the SCUD's reputation for inaccuracy
comes from non authentic non Soviet extended range versions).


Pn(<r) = 1-exp-1(r^2/ (1.414*(CEP)^2))

In the following tables I've chosen 400 missiles as an launch rate
against a target. With production rates of 1500-5500 per month firings
of several times this rate per month were feasible. Imagine

CEP 4.5km, 400 missiles launched this CEP corresponds to the LEV-3
system.

r meters probability nos of missiles, nos of
hits

4000 0.428097089 400 171.2388
2000 0.130377882 400 52.15115
1000 0.034321318 400 13.72853
500 0.008693027 400 3.477211
250 0.002180377 400 0.872151
125 0.000545541 400 0.218216
62.5 0.000136413 400 0.054565
31.25 3.4105E-05 400 0.013642
15.625 8.52636E-06 400 0.003411
7.8125 2.1316E-06 400 0.000853


CEP 2km 400 missiles launched this correspond to the reported accuracy
of the Leitstrahl system.

r meters probability nos of missiles, nos of
hits
4000 0.940919497 400 376.3678
2000 0.506983964 400 202.7936
1000 0.162055487 400 64.82219
500 0.043238226 400 17.29529
250 0.010989383 400 4.395753
125 0.002758741 400 1.103496
62.5 0.0006904 400 0.27616
31.25 0.000172645 400 0.069058
15.625 4.3164E-05 400 0.017266
7.8125 1.07912E-05 400 0.004316



CEP 1km, 400 missiles launched, this corresponds to an imagined
improved V2 guidance system perhaps the SG-66 that was undergoing
testing with improved gyroscope bearings. A CEP of 1km corresponds to
Norden accuracy when aimed from high altitude.

r meters probability nos of missiles, nos of hits
2000 0.940919497 400 376.3678
1000 0.506983964 400 202.7936
500 0.162055487 400 64.82219
250 0.043238226 400 17.29529
125 0.010989383 400 4.395753
62.5 0.002758741 400 1.103496
31.25 0.0006904 400 0.27616
15.625 0.000172645 400 0.069058
7.8125 4.3164E-05 400 0.017266
3.90625 1.07912E-05 400 0.004316



CEP 300m, 400 missiles launched. (CEP of a 1952 redstone missile)

r probability nos of missiles, nos of hits
range prob nos launch nos of hits


600 0.940919497 400 376.3678
300 0.506983964 400 202.7936
150 0.162055487 400 64.82219
75 0.043238226 400 17.29529
37.5 0.010989383 400 4.395753
18.75 0.002758741 400 1.103496
9.375 0.0006904 400 0.27616
4.6875 0.000172645 400 0.069058
2.34375 4.3164E-05 400 0.017266
1.17187 1.07912E-05 400 0.004316




As can be seen with a CEP of 4km the V2's ability to destroy a
specific target is not great unless a great many launches (about 1
months total production). It would however be capable of causing great
damage to a large factory, steel works, power station, dock area or oil
refinery and if its CEP could be brought down to less than 1km it would
be quite effective. Ultimately shear numbers will have the desired
effect. A V1 hit within 300 meters could kill a man standing in the
open and would send someone flying through the air. The crater
photographs I've seen look about 30m in diameter and 30m deep. Truly
massive.

With an putative improved CEP of 1km (essentially that of a Norden
operating at high altitude) It becomes quite menacing to specific
targets in small launch salvos. On the basis of papers and research
and the calibre of person doing the development I believe this degree
of accuracy would have been achievable by the Germans within one year.

The standard guidance system of the V2 was the LEV-3 which consisted of
a pair of gyroscopes to control missile attitude and a gyroscopic
accelerometer capable of providing acceleration, speed and distance
information to initiate the tilt over of the missile and terminate
motor cutoff. Once motor cutoff had been achieved the missile was
purely ballistic. Since only two gyroscopes were used it was necessary
to launch the missile from a rotating platform to align it with the
target. One vertical gyroscope controlled roll and yaw of the missile
while another horizontal unit controlled pitch. A single "PIGA"
(Pendulating Integrating Gyroscopic Accelerometer) was aligned with the
thrust axis. The PIGA was called the MMIA (Mueller Mechanical
Integrating Accelerometer) by the Germans in honour of Fritz Mueller.
Charles Stark Draper recognised the brilliance of the instrument and it
was redubed the PIGA. It is used in the Minuteman, MX and late model
trident missiles for guidance where it achieved 0.5m accuracy over an
interconintental ICBM flight (the 100m CEP was caused by other errors)

A more advanced system was the SG-66, which mounted several
accelerometers on a stable platform controlled by 3 gyroscopes and had
for instance an accelerometer to compensate for cross range errors.
This was test flown only a few times before the end of the war but was
expected to control accuracy considerably. It formed the basis of
both the Redstone and SCUD guidance.

A "Leitstrahl" guidance system that used a radio guidance beam was
also in use and apparently improved accuracy by a factor of 5-10
(particularly over short ranges) according to some sources. (in
reality its was somewhat better over short ranges). It was kept very
secret due to the possibility that the signals might be detected and be
used to discover the launch sites. It is credited with a CEP 2km by
some sources. Ironically it was never detected and never jamed.

The Soviet SCUD-B achieved a CEP of 450m at 300km using inertial
systems that guided the missile for the fist 60 seconds of flight. The
Redstone Arsenal missile (essentially von Brauns team including Fritz
Mueller the inventor of the gyroscopic accelerometer) with an influx of
American engineers) achieved an improvement of accuracy by a factor of
10 over the V2 from 2.8 miles (4.5km) to 270m (300 yards) at
considerably greater ranges.

It might be supposed that the Germans using an electronic beam method
could eventualy have achieved similar accuracies as the Soviets
achieved in the 1950s using an guidence and control system active for
only the first 60 seconds of fligh. (450m at 300km and about 600m at
400km). Such a system was being planed. (I believe the code name may
have been 'Viktoria'.) It would have used the Doppler principle
to provide accurate velocity and range information to the missiles and
tightly controlled beams to maintain the missile on the correct path
free from cross winds during the first 80 seconds of boosted flight.

A PIGA or Pendulating Integrating Gyroscopic Acceleromer was called
MMIG (Mueller Mechanical Integrating Accelerometer) by the Germans in
honour of F Mueller its inventor. It consisted of a gyroscope spinning
at a precise speed but mounted on a rotating pedestal so that it was
free to rotate or 'precess' about the another orthogonal axis. A
pendulum was mounted along so that it would unbalance the gyro as the
mass was accelerated. As the pendulum 'falls' it would cause the
gyro to 'precess' about its pedestal at a rate proportional to the
acceleration and the rpm of the gyro. A sensor (or switch contact in
the V2) activates a torque motor to rotate the pedestal in the opposite
direction so as to maintain pendulum position by forcing it to precess
in the opposite direction.. It was found that electrical contacts
worked much better than potentiometers on the accelerometer and that
they were suprisiningly precise.

In the V2 this torqueing of the precesional axis rotated a gear system
that operated electrical contacts to initiate the various sequences at
the exact speed.. A V2 would take-off and within 4 seconds would begin
its tilt over to 49 degrees (always the same angle) at a rate of about
3 degrees/second. After 20 seconds the missile was supersonic and at
95% the thrust of the motor would be reduced from 25 tons to 8 tons in
preperation for 'brenschluss' (burn termination) since the
shutdown sequence took 2.5 seconds and this added to much missile
error. The two 'strapdown' gyroscopes of the V2 used
potentiometers as position pickoff. A mechanism rotated the body of
the potentiometer to obtain the 3 degree/second tiltover. The DC
potentiometers voltages were amplified by an electronic DC amplifier
and proportional integral derivative style controller that worked by
converting DC voltages to AC, amplifying them and then converting back
to DC where they would be used to operate electrohydraulic servo valves
that controlled the tail fins.

Several improvements were being planed.
1 A 3 Axis stable platform LEV-3. Apart from not needing a rotating
launch platform and maintaining the main thrust axis accelerometer in a
stable alignment this had lateral accelerometers to control cross range
errors produced by cross winds. The LEV-3 was actually test flown
several times and formed the basis of all post war ballistic missile
developments in the USA and USSR.

2 Integrator on main accelerometer. The output of the "PIGA" in
terms of number of revolutions was actually speed. It was intended to
integrate this mechanically with a 'ball and disk integrator' (as
used in bomb sights) to produce a distance flown. This would be used a
solve an equation that determined rocket cut off (Brennschluss) that
more accurately factored in distance as well as speed. This system was
implemented on Redstone and was known as delta t control.

3 Fluid bearings. A large source of gyroscope and accelerometer error
was due to bearing resistence and vibration. Kreisel Garraete, the
company at which Mueller worked experimented with the use of
pressurised water fluid bearings. Post war missiles tended to
initially use compressed air and later went to a refrigerant gas style
liquid because of the problem of compressed air storage and then
disturbing influence aircompressors had for long periods of opperation.
Water was simply corrosive.

The Redstone missile essentialy had the above guidence system with the
refinement of highly accurate accelerometers, gyroscopes and a system
for levelling the platoform prior to launch.

Below find a few references:

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/mobileoperations.html
(webmasters note: It is generally believed that the A4/V2 was not an
effective weapon because it was not accurate enough to hit an exact
target. While pinpoint accuracy was not associated with the V2, it was
much more accurate than generally reported. Not every batterie received
or installed the Leitstrahl-Guide Beam apparatus, which, was crucial to
the greater accuracy of the weapon. In the later stages of the war the
accuracy improved greatly, sometimes to within meters of the target.)

http://www.usafe.af.mil/iraqifree/FAQ's.htm
In WWII, a B-17 with the Norden Bomb Site had a 3,300' circular error
of probability (CEP), which means to absolutely guarantee a target kill
you had to drop 9,000 bombs from 1,000 bombers...which put more than
10,000 airmen at risk. In Korea, an F-84F had a 1,000' CEP, which means
to absolutely guarantee a target kill you had to drop 1,100 bombs from
550 fighters...which put 550 airmen at risk. In SEA, an F-4 had a 400'
CEP, which means to absolutely guarantee a target kill you had to drop
176 bombs from 30 fighters...which put 60 airmen at risk.


http://www.ww2guide.com/bombs.shtml
In the fall of 1944, only seven per cent of all bombs dropped by the
Eighth Air Force hit within 1,000ft of their aim point; even a
fighter-bomber in a 40 degree dive releasing a bomb at 7,000 ft could
have a circular error (CEP) of as much as 1,000 ft. It took 108 B-17
bombers, crewed by 1,080 airmen, dropping 648 bombs to guarantee a 96
per cent chance of getting just two hits inside a 400 by 500 ft area (a
German power-generation plant.)
VOL. 4, NO. 3 J. GUIDANCE AND CONTROL MAY-JUNE 1981
History of Key Technologies AIAA 81-4120

1981 Developments in the Field of Automatic
Guidance and Control of Rockets
Walter Haeussermann
The Bendix Corporation, Huntsville, Ala.

AIAA 2001-4288
The Pendulous Integrating Gyroscope
Accelerometer (RIGA) from the V-2 to
Trident D5, the Strategic Instrument of Choice
R.E. Hopkins
The Charles Stark Draper Laboratory, Inc.
Cambridge, MA
Dr. Fritz K. Mueller, Dr. Walter Haeussermann
Huntsville, AL




999999999
http://forum-der-wehrmacht.de/index.php?s=cd28569eb4bf6047766be16f45d1e628&showtopic=10964

Von der Me 109 weiß ich, dass ein flugfähiges Exemplar etwa 500.000
Euro kostet / wert ist.

Im Krieg lag der Preis bei etwa 50.000 Reichsmark.

Below are costs of various German Weapons in Reichs Mark.


00000
Pz.Kpfw. I Ausf. B ca. 38.000,- ohne Waffen
Pz.Kpfw. II Ausf. b 52.640,- -
Pz.Kpfw. II Ausf. F 49.228,- ohne Waffen
15cm. s.I.G. auf Fgst. Pz.Kpfw. II (Sf.) 53.000,- -
Pz.Kpfw. III Ausf. M 103.163,- ohne Funkausrüstung
Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. G 115.962,- mit 7,5cm KwK 40 L/43
Pz.Kpfw. Panther 117.100,- frühe Version, ohne Waffen
Pz.Kpfw. Tiger Ausf. E 250.800,- ohne Waffen u. Funkausrüstung
Pz.Kpfw. Tiger Ausf. E 299.800,- voll ausgerüstet
Pz.Kpfw. Tiger I Ausf. E 645.000,- Exportpreis für Japan
Pz.Kpfw. Tiger II Ausf. B 321.500,- -
Sd.Kfz. 222 23.420,- ohne Funkausrüstung
Sd.Kfz. 232 57.290,- ohne Funkausrüstung
Sd.Kfz. 6 30.000,- -
Sd.Kfz. 7 36.000,- -
Sd.Kfz. 8 46.000,- -
Sd.Kfz. 9 75.000,- (später 60.000) -

http://www.nexusboard.de/showthread.php?siteid=332&threadid=198491&nx=ca459e2818269ce73574416be37b0e43
Hallo,
ich habe einmal die Preisliste aus "Achtung Panzer" kopiert:

In Englishe

Prices of selected models.
Model: Price in Reichsmarks (RM):
Volkswagen Käfer (VW Beetle) 990
Opel Kadett 2100
DKW Meisterklasse 2350
Ford Taunus 2870
Adler Triumph Junior 2950
Sd.Kfz.6 30000
Sd.Kfz.7 36000
Sd.Kfz.8 46000
Sd.Kfz.9 60000
Sd.Kfz.10 15000
Sd.Kfz.11 22000
PzKpfw II Ausf a 52640 with armament
PzKpfw II Ausf B 38000 w/o armament
PzKpfw II Ausf F 49228 w/o armament / 52728 with armament
Sturmpanzer II Bison 53000 with armament
PzKpfw III Ausf M 96183 w/o armament / 103163 w/o radio
Stug III Ausf G 82500 with armament & radio
PzKpfw IV Ausf F2 115962 with armament & radio
75mm KwK 37 L/24 8000
75mm StuK 37 L/24 9150
75mm StuK 40 L/43 12500
75mm KwK 42 L/70 12000
PzKpfw VI Tiger 250800 w/o armament & radio / 299800 with armament &
radio
PzKpfw VI Tiger II 321500 with armament & radio
l***@netscape.net
2006-04-20 19:51:30 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com.au wrote:

(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
When the V2 program
is counted as being 2 billon Reichmarks these anciliary operation costs
are factored in however they are generally not when compared to a
conventional bomber. When compared 'apples to apples' its
economics are comparable to a conventional bomber.
Actually, Speer also compared the V2 (and V1s, IIRC) to tonnage
delivered, and stated that the Allies dropped more explosives on
Germany in one 1000 bomber raid than all the V2's launched during WW2.
On that basis, the V2 was not worth the investment.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Part of the reason
may be just straight repetition of 'passed down wisdom" part is a
desire to discredit the Nazi regime.
Why then, do people laud such German developments as the Panther and
ME-262? I've listened to Canadian military historians (who made their
anti-Nazi views clear) laud WW2 German equipment, particularly on the
infantry level.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In part it may have been Albert
Speer who while an ardent rocket supporter wanted a scapegoat to
salvage the reputation of competence he cultivated.
Speer stated in his memoirs that even if Germany had its resources
perfectly managed, it couldn't win a war against the combined forces of
the US, UK, and USSR. Speer also outlined the nature of Hitler's
Germany, and his system of "Totalitarian Anarchy" that guaranteed rival
subordinates with overlapping responsibilities, and the waste that
resulted.

(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In his 1948 Autobiography "Crusade In Europe" Dwight Eisenhower is
credited with saying that had the V2 been available in quantity 6
months earlier (than its September deployment) Overlord would probably
have been canceled. (overlord was the 6 June 1944 D-day invasion).
After investigation I find this quite believable. Dwight Eisenhower,
as head of the overlord invasion, is quite a credible source.
Arthur Harris stated that if Bomber Command had 6000 heavy bombers at
the start of the war rather than build up to 4000 bombers at the end of
the war, they could have beaten Germany before it had a chance to
expand beyond Poland. The only difference I see between Harris' and
Eisenhower's opinions is that Harris quantified his. Did Eisenhower
state how many V2's would consist of sufficient quantity?

Oh, and do remember that by August, 1945, the US gains the ability to
melt city centers with one aircraft, and by 1946 will be able to
"Conventryize" German cities at a rate of 15 per month. Cancelling
Operation Overlord is not a Good Thing for the Germans, or anyone not
enamored of living in the Soviet Union.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
On the other hand the detractors of the V2 claim it was colossally
expensive, inaccurate (claiming inaccuracies of 17km or miles in some
accounts) and that when compared to an allied bomber, that it was
militarily ineffective and that it was a pure terror weapon. (All of
these have been said about strategic bombing incidentally).
The argument that the strategic bombing as a pure terror weapon is
demonstrably false. What is arguable is how much it hurt Axis
production, and how it might have been better used.

(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What then are the factors that would have determined V2 effectiveness?
I will cover 4 areas.
1 Timing. Could the V2 have been ready earlier; could it have
improved?
No to both counts. "Impressed" labor was not known for quality
products, particularly given Nazi levels of mistreatment. At the start
of the war, bombers were believed to be the optimal delivery mechanism,
and were much cheaper to put into battle than developing long-ranged
missiles from scratch.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What would the effect of the weapon being available months
prior to D-day.
The net effect would be a heavier concentration of V2 sites getting
bombed earlier, and more often.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
2 Accuracy. What did it achieve, what was the effect and what was
possible.
I do not recall the V-weapons hurting UK morale in the long run, nor
did they offset UK production to any degree.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
3 Cost effectiveness in the light of the above.
Speer did the simple explosives delievered comparison to the Allied
convential bombing, and concluded the Allies did far better for the
same effort.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
4 Accuracy compared to conventional bombing.
It was comparable to the Allied heavy bombers, which was damning
considering the disparity in tonnages delivered.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2's operational deployment was delayed by a number of factors.
These factors also prevented the weapon from maturing in accuracy and
reliability earlier in its deployment.
1 Hitler's reluctance.
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Hitler was silent, awkward and unresponsive upon
visiting Penemunde development facility and the opinions he expressed
were influenced by the above. That was March 1939.
...when the accepted wisdom was that the bomber would always get
through, and therefore no need was seen in making a pilotless one-use
deliverance system when more bombs could be delivered cheaply via
bombers.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As a result V2 development was restricted by lack of full high level
support. Apart from retarding the deployment one outcome may have been
that development of advanced forms radio guidance systems for the V2
was restricted (the experts were needed for radar and radio navigation
development)
...so, if the engineers responsible for Germany's night-bombing
naviagation and air defense chain are instead slotted to V2
development, wouldn't this make the RAF's bomber offensive more
effective?

(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Another delay was a Heinrich Himmler power play as the system began
showing promise.
That was just another symptom of Hitler's Germany. Actually, it was
rather mild, compared to the literal shooting feud that developed when
Von Ribbentrop and Goebbles fought over a radio station in Poland.

Hitler was not about to set this right, BTW. Having subordinates that
actively hated each other helped prevent them from conspiring to
overthrow him.

(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 could have been available considerably earlier.
Not likely. Too many changes to the personnell assigned, the
prevailing ideology, and the Nazi regime itself are necessary to make
it happen.

(stuff deleted, now regarding V2 Accuracy)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
British counter
intelligence had captured German agents in Britain and turned them. As
the Germans were too afraid of risking Arado 234 Jet reconnaissance
aircraft over Britain so for post strike reconnaissance analysis they
had to rely on their agents.
IIRC, the British effectively shut down or doubled all German agents in
the UK in a matter of weeks from the start of the war. Consequently,
the British still have the ability to divert V2 bombings, nullifying
any improvements in accuracy.

(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In accuracy and collateral damage high altitude bombing was not much
better in accuracy than the V2 and for the B-29 operating at is full
ceiling with 100mph cross winds at different heights it may have been
worse.
However, since the Allies had a lot more bombers which carried a lot
more bombs than the V2's, they used area bombing, which ended up
producing more hits, and after forcing the Germans to disperse their
productions, started to cripple German manufacturing via the oil and
transportation strikes.

(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As can be seen with a CEP of 4km the V2's ability to destroy a
specific target is not great unless a great many launches (about 1
months total production). It would however be capable of causing great
damage to a large factory, steel works, power station, dock area or oil
refinery and if its CEP could be brought down to less than 1km it would
be quite effective.
...until the British divert the V2s as they were able to do OTL. Even
if the Germans adopt the changes you propose (which is highly unlikely,
given the circumstances at the time), the British can still exploit the
poor German intelligence and have them constantly miss their targets.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Ultimately shear numbers will have the desired
effect.
(rest of post deleted)

If only Germany could find a way to reliably aim them, not to mention
build enough in the first place, and at best all it will do is prolong
the war until either the Soviets overrun Europe, or until several
German cities start glowing in the dark.
e***@yahoo.com.au
2006-04-22 16:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
When the V2 program
is counted as being 2 billon Reichmarks these anciliary operation costs
are factored in however they are generally not when compared to a
conventional bomber. When compared 'apples to apples' its
economics are comparable to a conventional bomber.
Actually, Speer also compared the V2 (and V1s, IIRC) to tonnage
delivered, and stated that the Allies dropped more explosives on
Germany in one 1000 bomber raid than all the V2's launched during WW2.
On that basis, the V2 was not worth the investment.
The V2 was an immature weapons system. It was in opperation for less
than 7months. Had it been opperational 6 months earlier once can
reasonably claim Speers assesment could be different and that:
1 Production would have been considerably higher in the later 6 months
and that easily 4 times as manny missiles would have been produced.
2 Quality of manufacturing and opperations would have raised the
success rate of the missile launch. Success launguished as low as 43%
but when everything when right it could reach 80% to 90%.
3 There simply was no other way for the Germans to counter the allied
bombing raids.
4 The accuracy of the weapon would have improved considerably.

Costs would have been driven down considerably fairly rapidly.

The V2 program was actually poorly run (ie a mess with 60,000
engineering changes) compared to the Wassefall SAM which was
subcontracted under the auspices of Henschell. The differences in the
program actually show what was possible.

Some of the cost improvements would have been:
1 Replacement of the metal alcahol fuel tank with a glue/carboard unit.
This was succesfully tested but did not enter production.
2 Replacement of the stainless steel oxidiser tank; this was actually
changed to aluminium in the production program.
3 One of the bigger costs was the engine. Werner von Brauns brilliant
engine designer was Dr Walter Thiel; when he and his family were killed
by a direct hit of an RAF bomb on their beach hut engine development
slowed down: as a result the V2 engine actually had 12 sub rocket
chambers on the 'roof' of its main combustion chamber each one fed by
its own supply of propellant and oxidiser and sub distribution. The
plumbing was extensive and expensive. The Wassefall SAM team finally
managed to develop a "mischdusse" or 'mixing plate designe'. The V2
engine was made of ordinary steel incidently.
4 Material substitution went as far as the guidence system which was
being converted to steel from aluminium.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Part of the reason
may be just straight repetition of 'passed down wisdom" part is a
desire to discredit the Nazi regime.
Why then, do people laud such German developments as the Panther and
ME-262? I've listened to Canadian military historians (who made their
anti-Nazi views clear) laud WW2 German equipment, particularly on the
infantry level.
I'm not saying that all critics of the V2 do so from an anti nazi
ulterior ianti-nazi agenda. I am saying some do. The V2 was
controversial as not only was it a unique achievement unmatched in
allied conception (Lindemann, Duncan Sandys, Ben Lockspeiser and every
technical expert refused to believe in the missile could exist on the
basis of their solid fuel experience untill it was litterally raining
down on London).

Many/Most V2 designers ended up in the USA where they worked on US
Armies Redstone, Juno and Pershing missiles and then moved onto the
space programm. A great fuss was made of the possibillity that these
people were Nazi "fantatics" who would "contaminate" the USA.
Associated with the V2 is the use of impressed labour in its
construction. Forced labour involved in contruction of underground
production facilities suffered badly.

(Incidently Charles Stark Draper was the inventor of the Gyro Guns
sight and the extremely accurate 'floated gyro' he was developing for
the inertial navigation system he wanted to develop. The floated Gyro
had 100 times less drift than a regular gyro. When Draper saw the
MMIG or PIGA accelerometer of the V2 he finaly had the accurate
accelerometer he needed to make inertial navigation possible and
coppied it. If you read any of Drapers papers he often gives the V2
guys full credit for their accelerometer). The von Braun Team helped
developed the US Armies missiles and when the Army was restricted from
making missiles with ranges greater than 200 or so miles moved to the
space program. Draper went on to produce inertial guidence systems for
the Trident and MX and Minutman while the Germans tended to go to the
space program. There was always a friendly rivalry between the ex
Germans and Drapers.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In part it may have been Albert
Speer who while an ardent rocket supporter wanted a scapegoat to
salvage the reputation of competence he cultivated.
Speer stated in his memoirs that even if Germany had its resources
perfectly managed, it couldn't win a war against the combined forces of
the US, UK, and USSR.
Speer is right in that regard.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Speer also outlined the nature of Hitler's
Germany, and his system of "Totalitarian Anarchy" that guaranteed rival
subordinates with overlapping responsibilities, and the waste that
resulted.
Speer was smart but his smooth abillity for self publicity and PR
somewhat excedes his achievments. Most of the production improvements
that Germany made were not due to Speer but due to the fruition of
production improvements begun in the 1939. Speers memoirs must be
taken with a grain of salt; including his rubbishing of the some of the
Nazi system as a case of "look at me I was different"

www.econ.yale.edu/growth_pdf/cdp905.pdf
DEMYSTIFYING THE GERMAN "ARMAMENT MIRACLE" DURING
WORLD WAR II. NEW INSIGHTS FROM THE ANNUAL AUDITS OF
GERMAN AIRCRAFT PRODUCERS

This shows that the Germans were able to get the cost of a Ju 88 down
from RM600,000 to 130,000 between 1938 to 1942.

A V2 might achiev similar levels of reduction but even half this would
be valuable.
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In his 1948 Autobiography "Crusade In Europe" Dwight Eisenhower is
credited with saying that had the V2 been available in quantity 6
months earlier (than its September deployment) Overlord would probably
have been canceled. (overlord was the 6 June 1944 D-day invasion).
After investigation I find this quite believable. Dwight Eisenhower,
as head of the overlord invasion, is quite a credible source.
Arthur Harris stated that if Bomber Command had 6000 heavy bombers at
the start of the war rather than build up to 4000 bombers at the end of
the war, they could have beaten Germany before it had a chance to
expand beyond Poland. The only difference I see between Harris' and
Eisenhower's opinions is that Harris quantified his.
Sure Arthur is right but that is redicuous: there is no way that the UK
could have funded 4000 heavy bombers by 1939 and if they had then the
other side might have countered such a massive threat. If the British
had 4000 bombers then the Germans would have developed 16000
opperational fighters to counter them and at lessor cost.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Did Eisenhower
state how many V2's would consist of sufficient quantity?
I am requoting from British Historian Thom Burnet "Who Really Won the
Space Race" and he does refer to the V2 not the V1.

You will note that the attack on the Port at Antwerp considerably
slowed the movement of materials; it never did achieve its designed
level of flow. Thirty V2s slamming down per day near the UK's major
ports is no joke.


http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/antwerp.html
The V-weapon campaign against Antwerp is often overlooked by military
historians. The indiscriminant bombardment was certainly a terror for
the civilian population of Antwerp, but it was also a monumental
hindrance to Allied war planners. It is short sighted to say the
V-weapons were ineffective simply because the port of Antwerp remained
open throughout the campaign. Not even the Germans believed the rockets
would completely destroy the port, but it was hoped, by amassing their
fire on this strategic target, they could severely inhibit the
Allies' progress toward Germany.

In the weeks leading up to the Ardennes offensive, the V-weapons
made it very difficult for supplies to reach the overstretched Allied
lines. Hitler hoped to cut the American and British forces in half,
with the capture of Antwerp being his ultimate goal. In the face of
Allied air superiority, the V-bombs were Hitler's only available
means to stem to flow of supplies prior to and during the German
offensive. Even though Hitler lost the Battle of the Bulge, the V-bombs
continued to fall on Antwerp. Throughout the later portion of 1944 and
well into 1945, the V-weapons severely curtailed the amount of supplies
brought into Antwerp. The port never did reach its expected goals, and
the Allies were forced to divert ammunition and manpower to Ghent.

Note half of the v weapons were V2's.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Oh, and do remember that by August, 1945, the US gains the ability to
melt city centers with one aircraft, and by 1946 will be able to
"Conventryize" German cities at a rate of 15 per month.
Not there isn't There is no uranium and no plutonium for virtually
the rest of the year after the attacks on Japan.

It's also outside the thread topic. My argument is about the cost
effectiveness and potential of the V2.


Cancelling
Post by l***@netscape.net
Operation Overlord is not a Good Thing for the Germans, or anyone not
enamored of living in the Soviet Union.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
On the other hand the detractors of the V2 claim it was colossally
expensive, inaccurate (claiming inaccuracies of 17km or miles in some
accounts) and that when compared to an allied bomber, that it was
militarily ineffective and that it was a pure terror weapon. (All of
these have been said about strategic bombing incidentally).
The argument that the strategic bombing as a pure terror weapon is
demonstrably false.
You've "demonstrated" nothing but rhetoric.
Post by l***@netscape.net
What is arguable is how much it hurt Axis
production, and how it might have been better used.
V2 bombing is no more a terror weapon than strategic bombing. The
evidence of the Bombing Survey is there: A CEP of 1000m as obtained by
Norden equiped B-17s and B-24 over europe as compared to the V2's
theoretical of 4.5km-6km.

Production in London reduced by 18% under the attacks by the V1, a
weapons less accurate than the V2. A V2 missile slamming down within
a 5 km radious with the sure knowledge that within a random interval
several more will come down in the same area tends to shut production
down.

As I pointed out the guys that designed the V2 and achieved a CEP of
4.5km managed to get the accuracy of the Redstone missile down to 270
meters. Two of the additions of the Redstone was flown as the LEV-3
guidence system; these being a 3 axis stable platform (neeeded for the
Wassefall SAM anyway) and an accelerometer for lateral compensation
against cross winds to reduced cross range errors. Another inovation
of the Redstone that was planed for thr V2 was a ball and disk
mechanical integrator to produce a more accurate down range cutoff
equation that accounted for no only missile slant velocity by slant
range.

There was nothing complcated about the ball and disk integrator: they
were all over wind compensating computing Lotfe 7 bomb sights, FLAK
predictor computers etc. The Schlit lateral accelerometer was
particulary ingenious and simple. Info confirming my claims can be
brought of the aiaa web site.

What was different and what added to the accruacy and enormous increase
in accuracy in the Redstone was
1 the use of gas bearings for the gyros,
2 the use of selsyn gyro pickups instead of potentiometers
3 the use of a detachable warhead to stop cross wind errors for
re-entry (planed for the A8 replacement for the A4/V2)
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What then are the factors that would have determined V2 effectiveness?
I will cover 4 areas.
1 Timing. Could the V2 have been ready earlier; could it have
improved?
No to both counts. "Impressed" labor was not known for quality
products, particularly given Nazi levels of mistreatment.
Depends. The harhest 'mistreatment' focused on those working in
building the bomb shelter tunnels. Those assembling goods or munitions
were often quite well treated and fed and paid despite the use of
coercian eg French POW's trying to get released early. They had to be
reasonably well fed and treated for any kind of detail work. Sabotage
was apparently common though I suspect that production problems were
often blamed on sabotage out of paranoia or blame shifting.

Willy Messerschmitt never received a sentence for the use of impressed
labour in some of his plants in part becuase his multiple memoranda to
his German employees urging the sympathetic and fair treatment of
'foreign' workers were well known.
Post by l***@netscape.net
At the start
of the war, bombers were believed to be the optimal delivery mechanism,
and were much cheaper to put into battle than developing long-ranged
missiles from scratch.
Both the US daylight and RAF night campaignes consumed massive
resources and the luftwaffe came close to defeating them at times.
(all it would have taken is slightly better radar). A V2 can't kill
its trained crew irrespective of what the enemy does when it gets shot
down nor does it need escorts or jamming aircraft or feinting raids.

Furthermore apart from the very limited use of navigation aids
ballistic missiles were potentially far more accruate than high
altitude bombing or night bombing.

A missile which is under gyroscopic control of 60 seconds during boost
is not effected by the gyroscopic drift that effects aircraft, nor is a
missile warhead re entering near verticaly at 1500ms going to be much
effected by cross winds.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What would the effect of the weapon being available months
prior to D-day.
The net effect would be a heavier concentration of V2 sites getting
bombed earlier, and more often.
V2 sites NEVER were discovered or bombed. To difficult to spot. They
were errected in a day and gone within hours. It's still a problem.

Constance Babbington Smith might have discovered a V1 lauch ramps but
she completely missed seeing V2's.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
2 Accuracy. What did it achieve, what was the effect and what was
possible.
I do not recall the V-weapons hurting UK morale in the long run, nor
did they offset UK production to any degree.
Igor Witowski refers to three references that refer to the 1/6th drop
in output
1 "Rockets and Guided Missiles" CIOS report, ITEM No 4,6, File No
XXVI-II-56 (1945)

2 D Holsken "V missiles of the 3rd Reich" Monogram Aviation
Publications.
3 J.B.King and J Bachelor "Deutsche Geheimwaffe" 1975.

V2s and V1 sometimes killed hundreds of troops.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
3 Cost effectiveness in the light of the above.
Speer did the simple explosives delievered comparison to the Allied
convential bombing, and concluded the Allies did far better for the
same effort.
V2 was an immature weapons system that needed another 6 months to get
into full swing in terms of production rate, quailtiy of production
etc. I've also noted Speers ulterior motives. I also can't see how V2
resources could possibly have been converted into producing 4 engined
bombers that could attack the UK. The 4 engined german strategic
bombers the He 277, He 274 were execellent aircraft with a performance
more like that of the B-29 than the B-17 or Lanc but I can't see the
Germans producing enough of them to attack the UK. Raids of several
hundred are needed. Small raids of a hundred or so would simply be
wiped out.

If the Germans had been given 500 Lancasters or B-17 could they attack
the UK succesfully? I doubt it.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
4 Accuracy compared to conventional bombing.
It was comparable to the Allied heavy bombers, which was damning
considering the disparity in tonnages delivered.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2's operational deployment was delayed by a number of factors.
These factors also prevented the weapon from maturing in accuracy and
reliability earlier in its deployment.
1 Hitler's reluctance.
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Hitler was silent, awkward and unresponsive upon
visiting Penemunde development facility and the opinions he expressed
were influenced by the above. That was March 1939.
...when the accepted wisdom was that the bomber would always get
through, and therefore no need was seen in making a pilotless one-use
deliverance system when more bombs could be delivered cheaply via
bombers.
The Bomber would always get through was eventually disproven by the
school of real life and was not accepted by everbody: For instance
escorts were needed and close to target bases for those escorts were
needed (even a P-51 couldn't escort a B-24/B-17 to the full extent of
their range). In the end only the overwhelming superiority of allied
manpower, resources (especially 'safe' resources in the continental US)
were needed to overwhelm the Luftwaffe. I think it can be argued that
long range strategic bombing using slow and clumsy piston aircraft such
as Lancasters and B-17 are a suicidal waste of resources and a
guranteed way of loosing a war of attrition against an enemy with the
equal resources of men, fuel and raw materials. Of course the Allies
had that superiority and could afford to put 7 or 10 men at risk in a
machine that was more likely to be shot down by a fighter of 1/4th the
cost with only 1 man at risk.
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As a result V2 development was restricted by lack of full high level
support. Apart from retarding the deployment one outcome may have been
that development of advanced forms radio guidance systems for the V2
was restricted (the experts were needed for radar and radio navigation
development)
...so, if the engineers responsible for Germany's night-bombing
naviagation and air defense chain are instead slotted to V2
development, wouldn't this make the RAF's bomber offensive more
effective?
Initially I would have to agree, in the longer term things would be
different. All weapons systems 'waste resources' untill in the
fullness of time they become effective.

In reality the resources could have come from somewhere else. In 1940
for instance the Germans gave up leadership in microwave radar
development when they abruptly cancelled their magnetron program. Peter
Swann (one of the then German later US engineers who is interviewed by
the IEEE (you can google)) notes they had some good magnetrons. Most
of the engineers were sent to the Army!

That was on the basis of an order that any program that could not
produce a fielded weapon within 6 or 12 months be cancelled or
suspended. The V2 barely escaped this. (this caused enormourse
disruption to German weapons development). The resources and manpower
went to the frontiline or production. The same thing happened again
just before Barbarossa.

A lot of silly decisions were made to put resources into making Bomber
A (the He 177) a dive bomber and Bomber B (Ju 288) as well. Bomber B
failed becuase the Jumo 222 engine couldn't be both upgraded as well as
developed fast enough to keep pace with the 'mission growth' weight
increase.

Pushing V2 development would have simply shifted resources from these
pointless programs.

Albert Speer (second hand) did regard the Wassefall SAM as potentially
a decisive weapons and would have had it placed ahead of the V2.
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Another delay was a Heinrich Himmler power play as the system began
showing promise.
That was just another symptom of Hitler's Germany. Actually, it was
rather mild, compared to the literal shooting feud that developed when
Von Ribbentrop and Goebbles fought over a radio station in Poland.
Hitler was not about to set this right, BTW. Having subordinates that
actively hated each other helped prevent them from conspiring to
overthrow him.
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 could have been available considerably earlier.
Not likely. Too many changes to the personnell assigned, the
prevailing ideology, and the Nazi regime itself are necessary to make
it happen.
Dornberger in his memoirs repeatedly claims he could have fielded the
weapon much earlier.
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted, now regarding V2 Accuracy)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
British counter
intelligence had captured German agents in Britain and turned them. As
the Germans were too afraid of risking Arado 234 Jet reconnaissance
aircraft over Britain so for post strike reconnaissance analysis they
had to rely on their agents.
IIRC, the British effectively shut down or doubled all German agents in
the UK in a matter of weeks from the start of the war. Consequently,
the British still have the ability to divert V2 bombings, nullifying
any improvements in accuracy.
It depends: at what time did air superiority become so over whelming
that German reconaisence was totally prevented? German recon abillity
was only restored with the Ar 234 in late 1944. There were a few Ju 86
flights I think and something might have been rigged up. Also I think
the Germans might have worked it out over the long term as they
analysed their data.
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In accuracy and collateral damage high altitude bombing was not much
better in accuracy than the V2 and for the B-29 operating at is full
ceiling with 100mph cross winds at different heights it may have been
worse.
However, since the Allies had a lot more bombers which carried a lot
more bombs than the V2's, they used area bombing, which ended up
producing more hits, and after forcing the Germans to disperse their
productions, started to cripple German manufacturing via the oil and
transportation strikes.
The ovewhelming material and manpower resources of the allies however
don't detract from my claim that the V2 in the fullness of time would
have developed into a cost effective weapon. Clearly it couldn't
perform all tasks. Even if it achieved a CEP of 1km or even the 450m
of the SCUD-B or the 270m of Redstone but on thr whole I claim it could
have started inflicting military damage.
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As can be seen with a CEP of 4km the V2's ability to destroy a
specific target is not great unless a great many launches (about 1
months total production). It would however be capable of causing great
damage to a large factory, steel works, power station, dock area or oil
refinery and if its CEP could be brought down to less than 1km it would
be quite effective.
...until the British divert the V2s as they were able to do OTL. Even
if the Germans adopt the changes you propose (which is highly unlikely,
given the circumstances at the time), the British can still exploit the
poor German intelligence and have them constantly miss their targets.
I think the changes are likely and they did fly a cuple of times. The
driving force behined developing the simpler SC-66 2 axis system versus
the more accurate but elaborate LEV-3 3 axis system were simplyhelping
to accelerate development time not what would be a marginal cost in
such a relatively expansive system. A better system could be
introduced latter.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2006-04-23 19:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
When the V2 program
is counted as being 2 billon Reichmarks these anciliary operation costs
are factored in however they are generally not when compared to a
conventional bomber. When compared 'apples to apples' its
economics are comparable to a conventional bomber.
Actually, Speer also compared the V2 (and V1s, IIRC) to tonnage
delivered, and stated that the Allies dropped more explosives on
Germany in one 1000 bomber raid than all the V2's launched during WW2.
On that basis, the V2 was not worth the investment.
The V2 was an immature weapons system.
So therefore largely ineffective, but of course the point about the early
operations is to learn how to improve things.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It was in opperation for less than 7months.
And managed quite poor results.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Had it been opperational 6 months earlier once can
reasonably claim Speers assesment could be different
No it is clear Eunometric prefers this to be the case, ignoring the
cost and time for the weapon's development, and its accuracy.

Speer's point is quite correct, V2 successful firings would have to
be on the order of 100,000 per month to match the 1944 allied heavy
bomber tonnages.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
1 Production would have been considerably higher in the later 6 months
and that easily 4 times as manny missiles would have been produced.
Given the SS were busy killing more of the workforce than building
missiles this is a debatable point.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
2 Quality of manufacturing and opperations would have raised the
success rate of the missile launch. Success launguished as low as 43%
but when everything when right it could reach 80% to 90%.
Slave labour being worked to death is not a high quality, experienced
work force. Delays in transport for a weapon that had to be used
within days of manufacture do not help either.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
3 There simply was no other way for the Germans to counter the allied
bombing raids.
The V2s did not counter allied bomb raids, they made absolutely no
difference. Why no targeting of allied airbases?

The V2s took resources away from AA missile development, that
would have made a difference. Resources devoted to an Ar234
bomber force would have helped as well.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
4 The accuracy of the weapon would have improved considerably.
Eunometric fits the V2 with 1950's technology at least to do this.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Costs would have been driven down considerably fairly rapidly.
Slave labour was charged by the SS to the companies at a fixed rate.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 program was actually poorly run (ie a mess with 60,000
engineering changes) compared to the Wassefall SAM which was
subcontracted under the auspices of Henschell. The differences in the
program actually show what was possible.
No, you see the V2 was really beyond cutting edge and was the first
big missile, the result was lots of design changes and need for
further development. Hard to keep mass production going given this.

Think of it this way the type XXI U-boat showed high underwater
speed, now assume it could be nuclear powered. This is really
the equivalent of the "Improved V2" being touted here.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
1 Replacement of the metal alcahol fuel tank with a glue/carboard unit.
This was succesfully tested but did not enter production.
Trivial cost wise.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
2 Replacement of the stainless steel oxidiser tank; this was actually
changed to aluminium in the production program.
Germany had plenty of steel versus aluminium.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
3 One of the bigger costs was the engine. Werner von Brauns brilliant
engine designer was Dr Walter Thiel; when he and his family were killed
by a direct hit of an RAF bomb on their beach hut engine development
slowed down: as a result the V2 engine actually had 12 sub rocket
chambers on the 'roof' of its main combustion chamber each one fed by
its own supply of propellant and oxidiser and sub distribution. The
plumbing was extensive and expensive. The Wassefall SAM team finally
managed to develop a "mischdusse" or 'mixing plate designe'. The V2
engine was made of ordinary steel incidently.
Going to mention the Wasserfall could not use V2 fuels since the V2
had to be used almost immediately and the AA missile had to perhaps
sit around fully fuelled for weeks? By the way the final Wasserfall fuel
mix was never settled. It was designed to spontaneously combust
when the different components were mixed.

The size of the missile meant instead of pumping the fuel the tanks
could be pressurised and this used to force the fuel into the
combustion chamber.

The Wasserfall weighed in at 3,500 kg, or around 1/4 the V2, with a range
of under 20 miles. The jet rudder idea of the V2 proved to be a problem
as the rudders did not burn symmetrically and this was a problem for
the smaller missile.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
4 Material substitution went as far as the guidence system which was
being converted to steel from aluminium.
Except again light metals were a much bigger problem for Germany than
steel supplies.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Part of the reason
may be just straight repetition of 'passed down wisdom" part is a
desire to discredit the Nazi regime.
Why then, do people laud such German developments as the Panther and
ME-262? I've listened to Canadian military historians (who made their
anti-Nazi views clear) laud WW2 German equipment, particularly on the
infantry level.
I'm not saying that all critics of the V2 do so from an anti nazi
ulterior ianti-nazi agenda. I am saying some do.
This is the usual tactic, pick an extreme opponent and talk about them,
but no names of course. Ignore the rest making more reasonable
objections.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 was
controversial as not only was it a unique achievement unmatched in
allied conception (Lindemann, Duncan Sandys, Ben Lockspeiser and every
technical expert refused to believe in the missile could exist on the
basis of their solid fuel experience untill it was litterally raining
down on London).
I suggest you read R V Jones for a much more realistic appreciation of
what the British thought and did. Jones actually allowed LIndemann
the chance to change his position during the summer of 1944 and he did.

The allies had access to a V2 that landed in Sweden in early June 1944.
Since it was an AA missile component test some British experts decided
it meant a much larger warhead to justify the cost of electronics. The
Poles provided samples of the fuel. During July the British arranged to
fly out the equipment the Poles had salvaged.

Duncan Sandys announced the end of the battle of London just before
the first V2s landed, since he assumed London was then out of range.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Many/Most V2 designers ended up in the USA where they worked on US
Armies Redstone, Juno and Pershing missiles and then moved onto the
space programm. A great fuss was made of the possibillity that these
people were Nazi "fantatics" who would "contaminate" the USA.
Which is not surprising given the Nazi crimes and the way the V2s were
built.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Associated with the V2 is the use of impressed labour in its
construction. Forced labour involved in contruction of underground
production facilities suffered badly.
Try more workers were killed by the SS while making V2s than the V2s
killed when used in combat.

Not surprisingly being associated with an SS run program is not a
good reference.

(snip)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Speer was smart but his smooth abillity for self publicity and PR
somewhat excedes his achievments. Most of the production improvements
that Germany made were not due to Speer but due to the fruition of
production improvements begun in the 1939. Speers memoirs must be
taken with a grain of salt; including his rubbishing of the some of the
Nazi system as a case of "look at me I was different"
www.econ.yale.edu/growth_pdf/cdp905.pdf
DEMYSTIFYING THE GERMAN "ARMAMENT MIRACLE" DURING
WORLD WAR II. NEW INSIGHTS FROM THE ANNUAL AUDITS OF
GERMAN AIRCRAFT PRODUCERS
This shows that the Germans were able to get the cost of a Ju 88 down
from RM600,000 to 130,000 between 1938 to 1942.
In other words in the first year of production a JU88 cost around
240,000 US dollars and the idea is it was down to 52,000 dollars
in 1942, or around the cost of a US single engined fighter.

If the USSBS is to be believed there were 110 Ju88s built in 1939 and
3,094 in 1942. The Ju88A of 1942 was essentially the same as the
Ju88A of 1939.

Oh yes if you read the reference, table 6 you will note the costs
are maximum and minimum for the year, for 1939/1940 it is maximum
523,385, minimum 210,648 marks. So if you ignore the obvious
high cost in 1939 you are much more able to see the real lowering
of costs. In 1941/42 the Ju88A-4 came it at between 170,605 and
167,129 marks, the tropical version between 173,143 and 159,143
marks. In 1942/43 the Ju88A-4 trop came in at between 141,246
and 139,274 marks.

So over 3 years, using the minimums the 1943 Ju88A cost around
60% of its 1939/40 cost. The 1944 version of the B-17, a much
heavier aircraft than the 1939/41 version cost around 68% of its
1939/41 version.

Be careful about what is actually being paid for here, whether
Junkers is charging for just the airframe and not all components.

Simply once again Eunometric is exaggerating the figures and then
misusing the exaggerations.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A V2 might achiev similar levels of reduction but even half this would
be valuable.
Not with the SS running things, they were after lots of dead workers
as an "output".
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In his 1948 Autobiography "Crusade In Europe" Dwight Eisenhower is
credited with saying that had the V2 been available in quantity 6
months earlier (than its September deployment) Overlord would probably
have been canceled. (overlord was the 6 June 1944 D-day invasion).
After investigation I find this quite believable. Dwight Eisenhower,
as head of the overlord invasion, is quite a credible source.
Arthur Harris stated that if Bomber Command had 6000 heavy bombers at
the start of the war rather than build up to 4000 bombers at the end of
the war, they could have beaten Germany before it had a chance to
expand beyond Poland. The only difference I see between Harris' and
Eisenhower's opinions is that Harris quantified his.
Sure Arthur is right but that is redicuous: there is no way that the UK
could have funded 4000 heavy bombers by 1939 and if they had then the
other side might have countered such a massive threat. If the British
had 4000 bombers then the Germans would have developed 16000
opperational fighters to counter them and at lessor cost.
I think you will find the 4,000 figure is from post 1940 and not
necessarily associated with Harris. It is the figure the RAF
thought would be needed to bomb the German economy into
ruins.

As of January 1944 according to the RAF survey the allies had
2,893 bombers available for operations in Bomber Command, the
8th and 15th Air forces. This reached 5,246 in mid 1944.

So where were the 16,000 Luftwaffe fighters? The USSBS says
the Germans built something like 14,000 Bf109 and 11,500 Fw190s
in 1944, plus all the nightfighters. How come the Germans did not
match this growth?

The Germans had an aviation fuel problem, and training lots of
aircrew required lots of fuel. That was the key problem in early
1944. That plus a neglected and flawed training system.

Simply put the idea that the Germans could have, or would have,
managed that a large fighter force pre war (which would have taken
resources away from everything else) is a joke. Yet again the Germans
have some sort of cost free counter.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Did Eisenhower
state how many V2's would consist of sufficient quantity?
I am requoting from British Historian Thom Burnet "Who Really Won the
Space Race" and he does refer to the V2 not the V1.
Then Burnet is wrong.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
You will note that the attack on the Port at Antwerp considerably
slowed the movement of materials; it never did achieve its designed
level of flow. Thirty V2s slamming down per day near the UK's major
ports is no joke.
Near the port? I thought the idea was to claim it was on the port?

Oh yes 30 V2s a day times say 4 months is around 3,600 V2s.

Antwerp was the target of 1,610 V2s and 8,696 V1s after it was captured
in September 1944.

So yes, yet again some sort of peak V2 rate is being used as the
average. Sad the missile was so bad it needs this sort of rewrite.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/antwerp.html
The V-weapon campaign against Antwerp is often overlooked by military
historians. The indiscriminant bombardment was certainly a terror for
the civilian population of Antwerp, but it was also a monumental
hindrance to Allied war planners.
No, minimal hindrance.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It is short sighted to say the
V-weapons were ineffective simply because the port of Antwerp remained
open throughout the campaign.
In other words folks the missiles did not work but that is unimportant
because the V2 was a wonder weapon.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Not even the Germans believed the rockets
would completely destroy the port, but it was hoped, by amassing their
fire on this strategic target, they could severely inhibit the
Allies' progress toward Germany.
To use the web site above,

"In the port of Antwerp itself, despite the bombardment, a constant
flow of ships was still delivering supplies for the Allied war effort.
Thousands of dock workers unloaded the ships in the midst of the
raining V-weapon attacks. One ship was sunk (by a direct V-2 hit)
and 16 others were damaged at some point, the Kruisschans lock
was damaged, several marshalling yards were hit and the Hoboken
petroleum installations were hit twice. Even so, the bombardment
never seriously affected the functionality of the harbor. There were
some casualties but, it never took very long for repairs to be made
to these installations. "

Also for the number of V2s

"For the whole of the V-bomb campaign, Antwerp received on average
three V-2s per day in the city and its suburbs. "

Yes Eunometric simply multiplies the number of daily hits by 10.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In the weeks leading up to the Ardennes offensive, the V-weapons
made it very difficult for supplies to reach the overstretched Allied
lines.
let us see now, the first coasters made it to Antwerp on 26 November
1944, the Ardennes offensive was less that 3 weeks away. The first
US ships arrived on 28 November. The web site claims 126 V2 hits
on Antwerp in November and 130 in December. The port of Antwerp
had 242 berths.

How about in the weeks leading up to the Ardennes offensive the
idea might be the allies needed time to make the port work smoothly.

It was at this time SHAEF were despatching teams to the US to urge
greater ammunition production.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Hitler hoped to cut the American and British forces in half,
with the capture of Antwerp being his ultimate goal. In the face of
Allied air superiority, the V-bombs were Hitler's only available
means to stem to flow of supplies prior to and during the German
offensive. Even though Hitler lost the Battle of the Bulge, the V-bombs
continued to fall on Antwerp. Throughout the later portion of 1944 and
well into 1945, the V-weapons severely curtailed the amount of supplies
brought into Antwerp.
What a joke. Two hundred bombs a month? How does this compare
to the mining and S-boat operations at the river mouth area? They sank
more ships.

Why not look up the US Army histories, the Transport corps, the
Quartermaster corps, and the two volume supply history of the
European campaign?

Try the allies decided to only unload ammunition for the local AA
guns at Antwerp given the attacks. Personnel were always going
to be unloaded elsewhere as far as the US army is concerned. See
also where much of the fuel was offloaded as well.

The US army did its usual thing with Antwerp, initially not allocating
enough transport to clear the cargoes. Also the Albert canal needed
to be cleared. Just as the system started to work it was disrupted by
the Ardennes offensive, it was restored in January and February and
then disrupted again by pulling trucks off the docks to supply the
attack into Germany.

"On the 2nd of December the supply dump at Antwerp becomes operational.
One of the contradictory factors about Antwerp is that by being so close to
the front lines during the winter supplies are sometimes trucked further
away
from the front as they are moved to supply depots. The main problem the
army has is congestion as cargo unloading proceeds at a faster rate than
clearance from the port. As the supplies accumulate the US asks permission
from the British to establish a major supply dump in the port. This is
refused
on the grounds it would hamper port clearance and set a precedent for US
depots in other British army ports. It turns out the best site for a US
dump is
outside Antwerp, some 2,750,000 square feet of open storage near the
Albert Canal. Drawing on the lessons from the Red Ball Express a set of
instructions and responsibilities for truck haulage is issued."

The British had a strict rule of not storing supplies at the ports as it
made them a double target, the port and the supplies.

"On 31st December a dump is opened at Lille to take overflow cargo from
Antwerp. The withdrawal of transport due to the Ardennes offensive is
claimed to have set back cargo clearance from Antwerp by the equivalent
of 14,000 rail cars or 35 ships."

"In January lack of food and clothing for civilians lead to widespread
strikes, in Belgium the result is coal production declines to 60% of the
previous month. Bad weather means Paris is receiving only 12,000 tons
of coal per day instead of the minimum requirement of 20,000 tons. The
workers at Antwerp will go on strike due to a lack of food, clothing and
coal. Some 646 trains will be delayed in France due to lack of coal. "

Lots more things going on than V2 strikes, it was the transport away
from the docks that was the bottleneck.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The port never did reach its expected goals, and
the Allies were forced to divert ammunition and manpower to Ghent.
Ghent landed a total of 6 US Army personnel versus Antwerp's 333 and
Le Havre's 1,104,036.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Note half of the v weapons were V2's.
No, just under half the hits on the city were from V2s.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Oh, and do remember that by August, 1945, the US gains the ability to
melt city centers with one aircraft, and by 1946 will be able to
"Conventryize" German cities at a rate of 15 per month.
Not there isn't There is no uranium and no plutonium for virtually
the rest of the year after the attacks on Japan.
1) The a-bomb was meant for Germany first.
2) go read the posts currently on the news server about US bomb
production. Your claim about bomb availability is wrong.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It's also outside the thread topic. My argument is about the cost
effectiveness and potential of the V2.
Cost effectiveness figures are wrong. Potential is being misused,
switching to what it could do, given years of development versus
what it actually did.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Cancelling
Post by l***@netscape.net
Operation Overlord is not a Good Thing for the Germans, or anyone not
enamored of living in the Soviet Union.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
On the other hand the detractors of the V2 claim it was colossally
expensive, inaccurate (claiming inaccuracies of 17km or miles in some
accounts) and that when compared to an allied bomber, that it was
militarily ineffective and that it was a pure terror weapon. (All of
these have been said about strategic bombing incidentally).
The argument that the strategic bombing as a pure terror weapon is
demonstrably false.
You've "demonstrated" nothing but rhetoric.
No, the allied bombers could be more accurate than the V2s and
their systematic destruction of the German oil industry shows more
than "terror".
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
What is arguable is how much it hurt Axis
production, and how it might have been better used.
V2 bombing is no more a terror weapon than strategic bombing.
No, the strategic bombing showed it was more by the shut down of
the German oil industry for a start. The effective crippling of the
Luftwaffe day fighter force as another.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The
evidence of the Bombing Survey is there: A CEP of 1000m as obtained by
Norden equiped B-17s and B-24 over europe as compared to the V2's
theoretical of 4.5km-6km.
Ah yes, we have the Norden results, at 3 times reality, versus the V2
theoretical, which is still 4 to 6 times the preferred Norden error, before
we talk the reality of 17 km V2 errors on London.

Or for that matter the 200 miles maximum range.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Production in London reduced by 18% under the attacks by the V1, a
weapons less accurate than the V2.
So tell us where the London production figures comes from.

Right, the V1 is less accurate, on what figures is this claim based?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A V2 missile slamming down within
a 5 km radious with the sure knowledge that within a random interval
several more will come down in the same area tends to shut production
down.
You know go check out the absentee rate in German factories in 1944.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As I pointed out the guys that designed the V2 and achieved a CEP of
4.5km managed to get the accuracy of the Redstone missile down to 270
meters.
Years later, first deployment of Redstone was in 1958 after a first flight
in August 1953.

You know you should check out the RAF and USAAF jet bombers of the
1950's and use them as WWII weapons using the above logic. They were
usually in service before the Redstone.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Two of the additions of the Redstone was flown as the LEV-3
guidence system; these being a 3 axis stable platform (neeeded for the
Wassefall SAM anyway) and an accelerometer for lateral compensation
against cross winds to reduced cross range errors.
Ah yes, the idea is a trial was run and this is immediately trouble
free, easy to mass produce and goes into service in nothing flat.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Another inovation
of the Redstone that was planed for thr V2 was a ball and disk
mechanical integrator to produce a more accurate down range cutoff
equation that accounted for no only missile slant velocity by slant
range.
Yes folks, the plans for a better guidance system are used and the time
taken to implement the plans is adjusted to fit the preferred outcome.

No time cost for an improved guidance system.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
There was nothing complcated about the ball and disk integrator: they
were all over wind compensating computing Lotfe 7 bomb sights, FLAK
predictor computers etc. The Schlit lateral accelerometer was
particulary ingenious and simple.
Yet strange as all this was the Germans did not have these guidance
systems in use in WWII, you would have thought they were off the
shelf items given the above claims.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Info confirming my claims can be
brought of the aiaa web site.
The claims are simply mainly wrong.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What was different and what added to the accruacy and enormous increase
in accuracy in the Redstone was
1 the use of gas bearings for the gyros,
2 the use of selsyn gyro pickups instead of potentiometers
3 the use of a detachable warhead to stop cross wind errors for
re-entry (planed for the A8 replacement for the A4/V2)
Do not bother to mention another decade of development. Assume
the Germans could have done it all in a few months.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What then are the factors that would have determined V2 effectiveness?
I will cover 4 areas.
1 Timing. Could the V2 have been ready earlier; could it have
improved?
No to both counts. "Impressed" labor was not known for quality
products, particularly given Nazi levels of mistreatment.
Depends.
It depends on whether they are forced labour or SS slave labour.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The harhest 'mistreatment' focused on those working in
building the bomb shelter tunnels.
Go look at the death rates in the V2 factory. For that matter the
factories associated with concentration camps.

So tell us all how you concluded those building air raid shelters
were the most mistreated.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Those assembling goods or munitions
were often quite well treated and fed and paid despite the use of
coercian eg French POW's trying to get released early.
Yes folks, just blur the line between the labour that arrived
voluntarily, the forced labour, like PoWs and the slave labour.
The V2s were slave labour built.

Note that some workers were treated reasonably well, and ignore
the treatment of those building the V2.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
They had to be
reasonably well fed and treated for any kind of detail work.
No, the SS had an overarching agenda, killing the undesirables.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Sabotage
was apparently common though I suspect that production problems were
often blamed on sabotage out of paranoia or blame shifting.
So how about that ,the so called well treated labour force was not in
accord with the production goals.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Willy Messerschmitt never received a sentence for the use of impressed
labour in some of his plants in part becuase his multiple memoranda to
his German employees urging the sympathetic and fair treatment of
'foreign' workers were well known.
Amazing how impressed is used, and slave is ignored.

Prisoners from Dachau were used at Messerschmitt plants, see

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Messerschmitt/Aero56.htm

Apparently the sentence was 2 years.

So much for no prison time.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
At the start
of the war, bombers were believed to be the optimal delivery mechanism,
and were much cheaper to put into battle than developing long-ranged
missiles from scratch.
Both the US daylight and RAF night campaignes consumed massive
resources and the luftwaffe came close to defeating them at times.
(all it would have taken is slightly better radar).
The RAF did its calculations and claimed the resources needed for
Bomber Command were 7.5% of total war effort, and 12% in the last 2.5
years of the war.

By the way how does better radar help the Luftwaffe versus the P-51?

And for that matter the loss of the coastal radar chain in September 1944?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A V2 can't kill
its trained crew irrespective of what the enemy does when it gets shot
down nor does it need escorts or jamming aircraft or feinting raids.
I thought the claim was super accuracy required radio beacons,
which could be jammed.

And all the enemy has to do to avoid the V2 is be 200 miles
from the nearest launch site.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Furthermore apart from the very limited use of navigation aids
ballistic missiles were potentially far more accruate than high
altitude bombing or night bombing.
No not in WWII, as can be seen by Bomber Commands results in
late 1944 and early 1945.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A missile which is under gyroscopic control of 60 seconds during boost
is not effected by the gyroscopic drift that effects aircraft, nor is a
missile warhead re entering near verticaly at 1500ms going to be much
effected by cross winds.
However as experience shows the above accuracy claim is simply
wrong. Just look at the results.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What would the effect of the weapon being available months
prior to D-day.
The net effect would be a heavier concentration of V2 sites getting
bombed earlier, and more often.
V2 sites NEVER were discovered or bombed. To difficult to spot. They
were errected in a day and gone within hours. It's still a problem.
Try things like the storage sites and check out the allied fighter bomber
sorties, yes sites were bombed. One Spitfire even had a chance to
shoot at a V2.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Constance Babbington Smith might have discovered a V1 lauch ramps but
she completely missed seeing V2's.
Constance saw a V1 at Peenemunde. This is not the same as attacking
or spotting V1 and V2 launching sites.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
2 Accuracy. What did it achieve, what was the effect and what was
possible.
I do not recall the V-weapons hurting UK morale in the long run, nor
did they offset UK production to any degree.
Igor Witowski refers to three references that refer to the 1/6th drop
in output
And Witowski writes where?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
1 "Rockets and Guided Missiles" CIOS report, ITEM No 4,6, File No
XXVI-II-56 (1945)
2 D Holsken "V missiles of the 3rd Reich" Monogram Aviation
Publications.
3 J.B.King and J Bachelor "Deutsche Geheimwaffe" 1975.
Sorry more information needed.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
V2s and V1 sometimes killed hundreds of troops.
The RAF attack on Vaires in March 1944 hit the marshalling
yards when it had a lot of SS troops present, killing over 1,200
SS men. The allied heavy bombers sometimes killed thousands
of enemy troops.

Usual stuff, ignore the average result, and go for the highlights.
Just ignore most V2s missed and yes the big troop kills were
done by a V1.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
3 Cost effectiveness in the light of the above.
Speer did the simple explosives delievered comparison to the Allied
convential bombing, and concluded the Allies did far better for the
same effort.
V2 was an immature weapons system that needed another 6 months to get
into full swing in terms of production rate, quailtiy of production
etc.
No, the SS were doing their best to run out of workers.

You forget how important experience is to optimising production.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
I've also noted Speers ulterior motives.
Speer might have had an ulterior motive for promoting himself, that
it not the same as commenting on the V2 program, the way it was
trivial compared to allied bombing, the way it took resources from
other projects.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
I also can't see how V2
resources could possibly have been converted into producing 4 engined
bombers that could attack the UK.
Says someone who is noting the V2s were switching to aluminium
components and who is busy converting resources from things like
the He177 and Ju288 programs into the V2 program.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The 4 engined german strategic
bombers the He 277, He 274 were execellent aircraft with a performance
more like that of the B-29 than the B-17 or Lanc
Ah yes, the usual exaggeration of German capabilities. This time
the Heinkel bombers.

The He274 never flew during the war. The He277 was the 4 engined
version of the He177, with around 11 built, with the empty weight
going from 17 to 22 tons. (The Lancaster was around 3 tons heavier
than the Manchester) The first He277 flight was in late 1943. Top
speed and ceiling were comparable with the B-29 and the Lancaster
VI, which was made in similar numbers.

In theory the He277 had a maximum load of 22.5 tons, versus the
Lancaster of 16 tons and the B-29 of 27 tons.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
but I can't see the
Germans producing enough of them to attack the UK.
Given the German aircraft industry stagnated between 1939 and
1942 perhaps you should try again. The Germans chose to attack
the USSR.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Raids of several
hundred are needed. Small raids of a hundred or so would simply be
wiped out.
My but the RAF defences would be pleased to here they were
that good.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
If the Germans had been given 500 Lancasters or B-17 could they attack
the UK succesfully? I doubt it.
And the V2 attacks were equally non successful.

Oh yes, the whole idea here is to assume the manned bomber has
no real place, the missile is the way to go, you know like all modern
air forces.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
4 Accuracy compared to conventional bombing.
It was comparable to the Allied heavy bombers, which was damning
considering the disparity in tonnages delivered.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2's operational deployment was delayed by a number of factors.
These factors also prevented the weapon from maturing in accuracy and
reliability earlier in its deployment.
1 Hitler's reluctance.
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Hitler was silent, awkward and unresponsive upon
visiting Penemunde development facility and the opinions he expressed
were influenced by the above. That was March 1939.
...when the accepted wisdom was that the bomber would always get
through, and therefore no need was seen in making a pilotless one-use
deliverance system when more bombs could be delivered cheaply via
bombers.
The Bomber would always get through was eventually disproven by the
The Germans assumed it was correct in pre war planning but assumed
good air raid shelters and good flak defences would help.

Hence the bias to flak, aided by Hitler.

All air forces in the late 1930s realised they would need to either
detect aircraft at much longer ranges or fly lots of standing patrols.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
For instance
escorts were needed and close to target bases for those escorts were
needed (even a P-51 couldn't escort a B-24/B-17 to the full extent of
their range).
Lets see now, of course the bombers could fly longer distances if
they were not carrying any sort of bomb load.

However the brief was to be able to escort to Germany and the P-51
could do that.

Oh yes, note we are talking about hundreds of miles here versus
the V2 range, which was less than the effective combat radius of
the Ju87.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In the end only the overwhelming superiority of allied
manpower, resources (especially 'safe' resources in the continental US)
were needed to overwhelm the Luftwaffe.
Forgetting how good the Fw190A and Bf09G were versus the P-47
and P-51 are we?

Forgetting the Luftwaffe's shortened training courses as well?

Forgetting the production decisions taken by the Germans?

Go look up the number of long range fighters available to the
8th Air force in early 1944 and see how comparable it is to
the German fighter strength in Germany.

Overwhelming? Hardly, much more qualitatively superior, with the
P-51, and P-47 versus the Fw190A, Bf109G, Bf110, Me410 and
Ju88, and the US had better trained pilots.

Later there was the G-suit, gyroscopic gunsight.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
I think it can be argued that
long range strategic bombing using slow and clumsy piston aircraft such
as Lancasters and B-17 are a suicidal waste of resources and a
guranteed way of loosing a war of attrition against an enemy with the
equal resources of men, fuel and raw materials.
In other words folks we now have a theoretical set up that bears
no resemblance to WWII, rather one tuned to the preferred outcome.

So I guess no air force can defeat an equal opponent then.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Of course the Allies
had that superiority and could afford to put 7 or 10 men at risk in a
machine that was more likely to be shot down by a fighter of 1/4th the
cost with only 1 man at risk.
I simply note as far as the day bombers were concerned they were
the reason the Luftwaffe was forced to fight the day escorts.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As a result V2 development was restricted by lack of full high level
support. Apart from retarding the deployment one outcome may have been
that development of advanced forms radio guidance systems for the V2
was restricted (the experts were needed for radar and radio navigation
development)
...so, if the engineers responsible for Germany's night-bombing
naviagation and air defense chain are instead slotted to V2
development, wouldn't this make the RAF's bomber offensive more
effective?
Initially I would have to agree, in the longer term things would be
different. All weapons systems 'waste resources' untill in the
fullness of time they become effective.
Ah yes, ignore the way proposed extra V2 resources come with a
cost, just hand wave it away.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In reality the resources could have come from somewhere else.
Yes folks, now the Germans are going to be accused of wasting
the key resources. Anything to allow the preferred outcome.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In 1940
for instance the Germans gave up leadership in microwave radar
development when they abruptly cancelled their magnetron program.
Not leadership that is clear.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Peter
Swann (one of the then German later US engineers who is interviewed by
the IEEE (you can google)) notes they had some good magnetrons. Most
of the engineers were sent to the Army!
Most countries had good magnetrons in the late 1930s, all you
need to do is be careful what Magnetron means in each case.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
That was on the basis of an order that any program that could not
produce a fielded weapon within 6 or 12 months be cancelled or
suspended. The V2 barely escaped this. (this caused enormourse
disruption to German weapons development).
So in other words the order was not fully carried out, rather it was
a trimming to what the Germans thought important or which had a
powerful benefactor.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The resources and manpower
went to the frontiline or production. The same thing happened again
just before Barbarossa.
The basic answer to this is wrong. The resources were allocated out
amongst various organisations, oh yes the pre Barbarossa idea of a
second cull is an overstatement.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A lot of silly decisions were made to put resources into making Bomber
A (the He 177) a dive bomber and Bomber B (Ju 288) as well.
Try the He177 soon gave up dive bombing but did not have its
engines fixed.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Bomber B
failed becuase the Jumo 222 engine couldn't be both upgraded as well as
developed fast enough to keep pace with the 'mission growth' weight
increase.
Bomber B was predicated on 2,500 HP engines, and they did not arrive.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Pushing V2 development would have simply shifted resources from these
pointless programs.
Pushing V2 development would have simply shifted resources from these
pointless programs into a another pointless program.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Albert Speer (second hand) did regard the Wassefall SAM as potentially
a decisive weapons and would have had it placed ahead of the V2.
A working AA missile versus an ineffective V2 was Speers preference.

(snip)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 could have been available considerably earlier.
Not likely. Too many changes to the personnell assigned, the
prevailing ideology, and the Nazi regime itself are necessary to make
it happen.
Dornberger in his memoirs repeatedly claims he could have fielded the
weapon much earlier.
You know Speer is said to have an agenda, but Dornberger, no he is
the messenger of truth.

Instead just ignore Dornberger offered, in 1939, a weapon that had the
bomb load of the Do17 and soon the Ju87, with less range than the
Ju87, assuming everything worked, at a much higher cost that the Ju87
until years of Rand D were paid for,

Ignore until rockets that size were built lots of things would be unknowns.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted, now regarding V2 Accuracy)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
British counter
intelligence had captured German agents in Britain and turned them. As
the Germans were too afraid of risking Arado 234 Jet reconnaissance
aircraft over Britain so for post strike reconnaissance analysis they
had to rely on their agents.
IIRC, the British effectively shut down or doubled all German agents in
the UK in a matter of weeks from the start of the war. Consequently,
the British still have the ability to divert V2 bombings, nullifying
any improvements in accuracy.
It depends: at what time did air superiority become so over whelming
that German reconaisence was totally prevented?
The Germans largely gave up reconnaissance of London in early 1941.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
German recon abillity
was only restored with the Ar 234 in late 1944. There were a few Ju 86
flights I think and something might have been rigged up. Also I think
the Germans might have worked it out over the long term as they
analysed their data.
Again, the benefit of the doubt goes to Germany, so what is long term?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In accuracy and collateral damage high altitude bombing was not much
better in accuracy than the V2 and for the B-29 operating at is full
ceiling with 100mph cross winds at different heights it may have been
worse.
However, since the Allies had a lot more bombers which carried a lot
more bombs than the V2's, they used area bombing, which ended up
producing more hits, and after forcing the Germans to disperse their
productions, started to cripple German manufacturing via the oil and
transportation strikes.
The ovewhelming material and manpower resources of the allies however
don't detract from my claim that the V2 in the fullness of time would
have developed into a cost effective weapon.
The fullness of time was the 1950's.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Clearly it couldn't perform all tasks.
Like hit targets more than 200 miles away. And hit accurately.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Even if it achieved a CEP of 1km or even the 450m
of the SCUD-B or the 270m of Redstone but on thr whole I claim it could
have started inflicting military damage.
Yes, just give the Germans 1958 missiles and watch them do real good.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
(stuff deleted)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As can be seen with a CEP of 4km the V2's ability to destroy a
specific target is not great unless a great many launches (about 1
months total production). It would however be capable of causing great
damage to a large factory, steel works, power station, dock area or oil
refinery and if its CEP could be brought down to less than 1km it would
be quite effective.
...until the British divert the V2s as they were able to do OTL. Even
if the Germans adopt the changes you propose (which is highly unlikely,
given the circumstances at the time), the British can still exploit the
poor German intelligence and have them constantly miss their targets.
I think the changes are likely and they did fly a cuple of times. The
driving force behined developing the simpler SC-66 2 axis system versus
the more accurate but elaborate LEV-3 3 axis system were simplyhelping
to accelerate development time not what would be a marginal cost in
such a relatively expansive system. A better system could be
introduced latter.
Simply put Eunometric has never dealt with research, the way the "simple"
idea can take years to be thought of.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
David Thornley
2006-04-24 17:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 was an immature weapons system. It was in opperation for less
than 7months. Had it been opperational 6 months earlier
Could it have been operational 6 months earlier? I've seen lots of
comments on revolutionary weapons systems and how they could have
been available earlier, and I distrust them.

First, it simply isn't possible to look at a batch of revolutionary
weapon system proposals and pick out the right ones. By definition,
there is no base of knowledge one can use to reliably evaluate them.

Second, such weapon systems usually incorporate scads of different
new components. The normal way such claims are made is to pick out
a few and disregard the harder ones.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 program was actually poorly run (ie a mess with 60,000
engineering changes) compared to the Wassefall SAM which was
subcontracted under the auspices of Henschell. The differences in the
program actually show what was possible.
Okay, now list all Allied aircraft downed by the Wasserfall. The V2
actually does have some successes. The rockets went up, came down,
and exploded, on occasion close to where they were aimed. Both the V2
and Wasserfall were developed into successful weapon systems in the
1950s using postwar technology.

Granted that Wasserfall was the more ambitious project, that still
isn't actually a recommendation.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
2 Replacement of the stainless steel oxidiser tank; this was actually
changed to aluminium in the production program.
Quick question: why would aluminum be cheaper? Normally steel is
cheaper and sturdier, and aluminum is used only where weight is
critical. This sounds like an addition to the cost.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by l***@netscape.net
Oh, and do remember that by August, 1945, the US gains the ability to
melt city centers with one aircraft, and by 1946 will be able to
"Conventryize" German cities at a rate of 15 per month.
Not there isn't There is no uranium and no plutonium for virtually
the rest of the year after the attacks on Japan.
False. If Germany is still there to be nuked, the bombs are not used
on Japan. They were specifically developed to be used on Germany,
one fear being that Germany would develop nuclear weapons.

Moreover, there was a lot more plutonium than is often thought, and
more on the way. See the ongoing "third bomb" thread.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It's also outside the thread topic. My argument is about the cost
effectiveness and potential of the V2.
The potential was limited by the fact that, given a few more months,
German cities were going to be destroyed worse than Bomber Command
ever accomplished. Any cost-benefit analysis of a German weapon
system being pushed in 1944 and 1945 must deal with the limits
imposed by Allied ground power (which overran German resources and
industrial centers), Allied air power (which destroyed and isolated
those), and the forthcoming nuclear weapons.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
V2 bombing is no more a terror weapon than strategic bombing. The
evidence of the Bombing Survey is there: A CEP of 1000m as obtained by
Norden equiped B-17s and B-24 over europe as compared to the V2's
theoretical of 4.5km-6km.
Oh, yeah. Assuming the figures are accurate, which I doubt, you're
claiming that a factor of 20-30 is insignificant. A 4.5km CEP covers
about twenty times the area as a 1km CEP.

Moreover, USAAF heavy bomber formations did deliver concentrated
attacks, even if some missed. V2s were incapable of concentrated
fire.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As I pointed out the guys that designed the V2 and achieved a CEP of
4.5km managed to get the accuracy of the Redstone missile down to 270
meters.
Irrelevant. The question is what could be accomplished with WWII
technology. (Another question is how the Germans were supposed to
deal with British deception measures. Even a very powerful weapon
directed against a meadow will have less effect than a lesser one
that hits a city.)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Both the US daylight and RAF night campaignes consumed massive
resources and the luftwaffe came close to defeating them at times.
(all it would have taken is slightly better radar).
Really? How was radar supposed to help against the USAAF heavies?

Bomber Command fought a war of deception, to some degree, so it could
be opposed by sophisticated countermeasures.

The USAAF fought a war of brute force, which can be wasteful of
resources but which is harder to counter. The Germans were in very
deep trouble when USAAF heavy bomber formations started going wherever
they wanted in Germany, covered by hundreds of effective long-range
fighters.

A V2 can't kill
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
its trained crew irrespective of what the enemy does when it gets shot
down nor does it need escorts or jamming aircraft or feinting raids.
Nor does it have any sort of terminal guidance.

Remember that a bomber crew can tell, to some extent, where they are
bombing. If the target can be seen, the bombing can be quite accurate.
A V2, by detaching the crew, has precisely zero capability to do any
sort of terminal guidance or to report back on where it hit relative
to where it was aimed.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Furthermore apart from the very limited use of navigation aids
ballistic missiles were potentially far more accruate than high
altitude bombing or night bombing.
What do you mean by potential? In practice, the bombers were a lot
more accurate.

Can you name a period, from WWII on, where ballistic missiles were
more accurate than manned bombers? Anything that increases the
accuracy of the missile can be used to increase the accuracy of the
bomber, and that can be used by trained and intelligent men.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A missile which is under gyroscopic control of 60 seconds during boost
is not effected by the gyroscopic drift that effects aircraft, nor is a
missile warhead re entering near verticaly at 1500ms going to be much
effected by cross winds.
So? Aircraft can compensate for gyroscopic drift and cross winds
in assorted ways, provided they have some way of telling where they
are. In the period where they could more easily get lost, the ballistic
missiles were way inaccurate.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
etc. I've also noted Speers ulterior motives. I also can't see how V2
resources could possibly have been converted into producing 4 engined
bombers that could attack the UK.
Which doesn't mean that any alternative way of chucking explosives
in the right general direction is cost-effective.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The Bomber would always get through was eventually disproven by the
Before the war, it was accepted by pretty much everybody. People
started thinking differently when they found out that, in practice,
it didn't work.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
were needed to overwhelm the Luftwaffe. I think it can be argued that
long range strategic bombing using slow and clumsy piston aircraft such
as Lancasters and B-17 are a suicidal waste of resources and a
guranteed way of loosing a war of attrition against an enemy with the
equal resources of men, fuel and raw materials.
Which means that the Allies would have done things differently under
different circumstances. As it was, the strategic bombing campaigns
diverted a good many resources in 1943, and were very effective in
1944.

Nor does this mean that ballistic missile programs wouldn't be even
worse at attrition against an equal enemy. It costs money to develop
them and put them into the air, and they don't necessarily do much
significant damage.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Dornberger in his memoirs repeatedly claims he could have fielded the
weapon much earlier.
German WWII memoirists are notorious for claims about how they could
have done much better if they'd been allowed to do things their way.
I don't take them seriously.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The ovewhelming material and manpower resources of the allies however
don't detract from my claim that the V2 in the fullness of time would
have developed into a cost effective weapon. Clearly it couldn't
perform all tasks. Even if it achieved a CEP of 1km or even the 450m
of the SCUD-B or the 270m of Redstone but on thr whole I claim it could
have started inflicting military damage.
In the context of WWII, it was not going to get a good enough CEP
to be a useful strategic bombardment weapon. Ballistic missiles did
develop into very important weapons systems, but this was largely
due to being used in situations where great accuracy was not necessary.
Some examples are bombardment rockets, which are normally fired in
great numbers (and were in WWII, also - a much more effective use of
rockets), and missiles carrying nuclear warheads.

--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
***@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Hugo S. Cunningham
2006-04-20 21:54:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:33:39 -0400, ***@yahoo.com.au wrote:

[...]
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In his 1948 Autobiography "Crusade In Europe" Dwight Eisenhower is
credited with saying that had the V2 been available in quantity 6
months earlier (than its September deployment) Overlord would probably
have been canceled.
[...]

(1) He was talking about the V1, which started being used in June
1944.

(2) He suggested it should have been concentrated on the invasion
assembly ports in southern England, rather than dissipated over
London.

(3) Even then, he sounded somewhat more tentative on whether the
cross-channel invasion would have had to be cancelled.

--Hugo S. Cunningham
Geoffrey Sinclair
2006-04-21 08:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Walter Dornberger, the young Artillery officer along with Werner von
Braun is credited with being the main driving force behind The EMW A4
(i.e. V2) ballistic missile development in Germany during the second
world war.
By the way, Domberger was born in 1895, making him 45 in 1940
and 50 in 1945.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In 1942 he claimed that at "Reichs Mark" RM40,000 that the V2
rocket was a cheaper way of delivering explosives than a two engine
Luftwaffe bomber that cost RM1,500,000 to build and train the crew for
but lasted an average of only 6 missions over Britain. Post war
analysis suggests that the V2 cost RM120,000 but this was probably
likely to fall to RM50,000 and possibly even RM28,000.
Eunometric of course believes the estimates without providing a
source.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
This would have
brought the cost down to similar levels to that of the complicated
BMW801 fuel injected engine used in the Fw 190 fighter.
In other words the figures being attributed to Domberger in 1942 were
around 3 times too much if the later figures are correct. Oh yes if the
6 missions is correct then the average Luftwaffe air raid over Britain
was suffering 16% casualties in 1942.

In effect the claim is at 40,000 marks the V2 airframe cost US$16,000 at
the 1941 exchange rate. Or about right for a 1 ton carcass of relatively
cheap steel with presumably the rocket motor and guidance systems
included.

In case people are wondering Eunometric wrote a similar tome of praise
for the V2 using the Fw190 as the benchmark back in October 2005.
That was shot down so the benchmark is changed to a German medium
bomber.

You see the Fw190 represents around the same performance as a
bomber as the V2 when it comes to range and bomb load. The Ju88
could of course carry more bombs a lot further. The Ju88S could
carry 3 times the V2 payload.

In fighter bomber operations in the first 7 months of 1943 the jabos
lost 65 from 728 sorties. In the 1944 little Blitz night sorties the Jabos
lost 10 from 225 sorties.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Many of the claims of the cost of the V2 program fail to note that
major programs such as the Ju 88 for the Germans and the B-24 or B-17
program for the US had similar cost levels when both research and
development, production, factory costs, airfield defense costs and
operation are considered. It is one thing to count the unit cost of a
B-26 or B-24 and quite another to factor in air and ground crew
training costs, fuel, bombs, ammunition, research and development,
maintaining of navigation aids and air seas rescue, airfield
development and protection, administration etc.
I presume you have seen the USAAF table on costs of aircraft?
In 1939 the B-17 cost $301,221 on average, in 1945 it was $187,742.

The B-29s bought in 1942 cost $893,730 each, in 1945 $509,465.

Boeing was a private firm and pre war would have charged the USAAF
the monies necessary to cover the B-17 development and expansion.

I simply note that the figure given for a V2 is that of a empty airframe,
without training costs, fuel, ammunition, factory and airfield defence
and so on being taken into account.

Probably the main point the wonder V2 idea misses out on is the
bombers could be more accurate. As the allies found out impressive
numbers of bomb tonnage did not mean much if most miss.

And most V2s missed.

By the way the British estimate something like 1,359 V2s were launched
at London of which 517 came down in he London Civil Defence Region,
537 elsewhere in the UK, 61 offshore and 288 simply disappeared. So a
20% "missing" rate at a target the size of England.

So tell us the simple calculation, how many tons of explosive per man
in the V2 units per month did the average V2 unit deliver, versus the
same calculation for a US or RAF heavy bomber squadron? This is
a start for cost effectiveness.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
When the V2 program
is counted as being 2 billon Reichmarks these anciliary operation costs
are factored in however they are generally not when compared to a
conventional bomber.
Ah I see the idea is to claim all the V2 costs, from administration, through
site defence, training and transport are all included in the above costs.
So how is this known. As opposed to the idea the R&D for the V2 came
to around 2 billion marks and then there were the costs of building and
using the missiles?

Now 2 billion marks or $800,000,000, all to deliver under 5,000 tons of
explosives, or around 1,000 Lancaster sorties and around twice that
number of B-17 sorties.

Then comes the costs of WWII aircraft are calculated how exactly? How did
the private firms recover their development costs? The Spitfire Prototype
apparently cost 787 pounds to build, however the full cost of the prototype
to Supermarine to October 1937 was of the order of 21,000 pounds, multiply
by 10 for marks, as of 1941 exchange rates.

When it came to production Supermarine were paid 8,783 pounds for the
first 49, 5,782 pounds for the next 26, 5,768.5 pounds for the next 31 and
5,768.5 pounds for the remaining aircraft of the order for 310 Spitfires.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
When compared 'apples to apples' its
economics are comparable to a conventional bomber. Part of the reason
may be just straight repetition of 'passed down wisdom" part is a
desire to discredit the Nazi regime.
Ah yes, the great anti Nazi conspiracy.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In part it may have been Albert
Speer who while an ardent rocket supporter wanted a scapegoat to
salvage the reputation of competence he cultivated.
Alternatively Speer was more accurate than those who want to believe
in the V2.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A V2 on Dornbergers figures alone could deliver 30 or 12 missiles at
the same cost of RM1,500,000 as compared to equipping a crew of 3-4
with a two engine bomber and hoping that it and its crew would last 30
missions unscathed.
Lets see now, the V2 carried a 1 ton warhead. The typical mid war
German twin engined bomber a 2 ton bomb load.

So 12 missiles is 6 bomber sorties, 30 missiles is 15 bomber sorties, with
30 bomber missions equalling 60 V2 sorties. All assuming no casualties
or rockets going missing.

Of course the bomber is more expensive, it is also able to hit more
targets.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Production quantities of 1500 V2 missiles per
month were considered feasible by the Penemunde development Team.
And of course, given the V2 is being boosted here, this estimate is
assumed to be correct.

By the way 1,500 tons of bombs is around 1% allied heavy bomber
monthly bomb lift in the second half of 1944.

Since the 3 allied heavy bomber forces dropped over 1.15 million tons
of bombs in 1944 the V2 production rate to match this would have to
be in the order of 100,000 per month.

And since the idea is to claim the V2 was about as accurate as the
heavy bomber forces on average you see the problems of scale.

Of course the average hides the way the allied bombers could be
much better in good weather, something the V2 could not do.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The
quantities of 5500 month demanded by Hitler required using of impressed
labour. (Eg it was agreed to take some 1500 skilled French workers
were taken prisoner to relieve production bottlenecks)
I like the use of impressed, it hides the fact so many of the people
making V2s were slave labour. Note "real" V2 costs are predicated
on this labour cost.

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/mittel.html

It seems the 4,575 V2s built at the Mittelwerk plant cost the lives
of around 26,500 workers. It seems more workers were killed there
making the rockets than the rockets killed when they were used.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Incidently actual production costs of a Ju 88 were about RM400,000 in
1939 and only about RM200,000 in 1941. The Germany industry learned
mass production on this aircraft and generally it took 2 years to gets
costs down. A B-24 cost $296 000 each (RM750,000, compared to $224 000
(RM 600,000) for the B-17.
The US dollar bought 2.5 marks in 1941. So it is probable the costs
being shown for the Ju88 are not fly away.

Oh yes the B-24 cost being quoted is from early in the war, around 1942,
versus the 1944 cost of $215,516.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v2.htm

For a V2 unit price of US $17,877.

Also note the way 1,000 to 1,750 of the V2s were fired off as tests or
as part of training. In other words around 2 missiles used in combat
for 1 expended in testing and training.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In his 1948 Autobiography "Crusade In Europe" Dwight Eisenhower is
credited with saying that had the V2 been available in quantity 6
months earlier (than its September deployment) Overlord would probably
have been canceled. (overlord was the 6 June 1944 D-day invasion).
After investigation I find this quite believable. Dwight Eisenhower,
as head of the overlord invasion, is quite a credible source.
Yes, I am sure Eunometric would consider such a claim quite credible,
after all Eisenhower never made it.

Try V1s and try Eisenhower did not make such a flat statement about
the V1s either.

Oh yes, if the V1 and V2s were really as good as claimed then with
Antwerp being the target of 1,610 V2s and 8,696 V1s after it was
captured in September 1944 then the port should not have even
existed in 1945. After all Antwerp was much closer to the launch
areas. London was extreme range for the V2.

The V2,

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/makeup/design.html

"Before launch, the empty V2 weighs 10,000 lbs (4539 kg), it is filled
with fuel, alcohol, liquid oxygen, hydrogen peroxide en sodium
permanganate (catalyst). The air batteries and nitrogen batteries are
filled up to 200 bar, and the rocket now weighs 28,000 lbs (12700 kg). "

"When launched against targets close to the operational range of the
vehicle, the deviation between target and impact was normally 4 to
11 miles (7-17 km away from target). "

The Germans expend over 8 tons of consumables to use the V2,
under 4 tons of fuel and under 5 tons of liquid oxygen , the Ju88
fuel capacity was around 1,600 litres or 1.2 tons. The fuels are not
strictly comparable of course but you gain an idea of the consumables
cost of the V2. Not to mention the volumes of fuel needed. Liquid
oxygen transport, storage and so on.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
On the other hand the detractors of the V2 claim it was colossally
expensive, inaccurate (claiming inaccuracies of 17km or miles in some
accounts) and that when compared to an allied bomber, that it was
militarily ineffective and that it was a pure terror weapon. (All of
these have been said about strategic bombing incidentally).
Yes, when in doubt over the figures quote the worst case and ignore
they are the measured results. And ignore the fact that by the end
of 1944 the allied heavy bombers had accuracy well above that of the
V2.

Simply put the allied bombers had the capacity to be very accurate,
given good weather and/or the radio aids they deployed, the V2
simply did not have the accuracy. Which is way the terror idea
comparison falls down.

The V2 had the better average accuracy in bad weather of course.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It is
noted that proportionally that Germany supposedly invested as much into
the V2 program as the US invested into the Manhattan Nuclear Bomb
project. (I actually question those figures)
Then tell us what the figures are that you are using.

Peenemunde apparently cost around 4,800,000,000 marks to build
according to one figure. Split this cost between V1 and V2 work.

Another figure has the V2 program costing 2 billion US dollars, not marks.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What then are the factors that would have determined V2 effectiveness?
I will cover 4 areas.
1 Timing. Could the V2 have been ready earlier; could it have
improved? What would the effect of the weapon being available months
prior to D-day.
2 Accuracy. What did it achieve, what was the effect and what was
possible.
3 Cost effectiveness in the light of the above.
4 Accuracy compared to conventional bombing.
The V2's operational deployment was delayed by a number of factors.
These factors also prevented the weapon from maturing in accuracy and
reliability earlier in its deployment.
Of course the fact all new weapons have their teething problems
are going to be ignored. Instead V2s are seen to be the way to
go and all problems quickly solved.

Think of it this way the Germans had to start in 1938/39 designing
a 13 ton aircraft, or in other words the normal loaded weight of the
Ju88. In this case powered by a motor no one had ever built.

Why is it surprising the prototypes did not fly until 1942?

Similar for the new guidance systems, especially their needed
accuracy.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
1 Hitler's reluctance. Max Valier who was an engineer fascinted in
rocketetry and known to Hitler from the early nazi days in Munich..
Valier had died in a Rocket explosion. Hitler regarded the missile in
the same way he regarded Zeppelins: dangerous, explosive and therefor
unusable. He was quite understandably not impressed. Hitler believed
in the Vril, an intelligent life force that protected the earth. He
imagined or rather dreamed of the V2 damaging the earth protective
mantle (more or less correct as modern studies have shown but also an
exaggeration).
Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on what this protective
mantle is in your eyes and how rockets disrupt it.

And note Hitler's support in 1942 and the way it was turned into
a committee that tended to hinder, not help, the designers.

Going to note the War Ministry requirement issued before the war
began?

The idea here is to simply claim more resources would have a near
linear decrease in the time it took to actually produce working V2s.
You know 1 builder can build a house in 100 days, 100 builders
can do it in 1 day sort of idea.

This ignores the Germans had to come up with things like high
capacity, reliable, fuel pumps, those 8 tons of fuel and oxygen
burnt off in minutes. Things like the jet rudders.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Hitler was silent, awkward and unresponsive upon
visiting Penemunde development facility and the opinions he expressed
were influenced by the above. That was March 1939.
Lets see now, in March 1939 the A-3, at under 1 ton, was still being
trialled but it simply never worked properly, trials had been going
on since September 1937. Before the war began the German War
Ministry sent a specification for a 1 ton warhead and a range of
150+ miles. The proposed rocket was designated A-4 and since it
was such a jump the A-5 was used for trials, it was about the size
of the A-3 but with a redesigned guidance and control system and
different construction techniques, the A-5 was being fired in late
1938. That is before March 1939.

So Hitler is supposed to be impressed about a weapon that no
one can be sure can be built? To drop half the bomb load of the
current bombers and even less of the types under design, with
around 1/4 or less of their effective range? Given the Luftwaffe's
expected performance?

The first V2 firing was in June 1942, it failed as did the second two
months later, the third, in October worked.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v2.htm

Dornberger claims Hitler delayed things by 3 years, but the trouble
here is the V2 did not exist in 1939.

What is interesting is this statement,

"Dornberger states that it was found that a missile had to be fired
within three days of production in order to ensure that perishable
materials had not deteriorated. This implies that any V-2's manufactured
had to be fired within a month at the most or reworked or scrapped. "
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As a result V2 development was restricted by lack of full high level
support.
Peenemunde was started in spring 1937.

At the outbreak of the war the rocket staff was around 300. How
many more were supposed to be available? Especially on a
weapon that was very much blue sky.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Apart from retarding the deployment one outcome may have been
that development of advanced forms radio guidance systems for the V2
was restricted (the experts were needed for radar and radio navigation
development) so the engineers had to emphasise a simple 'inertial'
system that relied on a gyroscopic accelerometer.
Germany had radio beams available in 1939 and 1940, the ones used
against Britain.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A radio beacon
system was deployed in the latter stages of the V2s operational life
that apparently improved accuracy (by a factor of 5-10) in perhaps 25%
of late war launches but even this system was improvised and
underdeveloped compared to what was needed. (Note: inertial guidance
quickly outperformed radio based systems in all but applications with
very close transmitters).
"The Leitstrahlstellung was a "guiding beam" that improved accuracy
of the A4 somewhat during the later days of the campaign. One quarter
of all A4 rockets were guided with the Leitstrahlstellung. "

Note the "somewhat" and how the idea is to claim it was 5 to 10 times
better. It seems the test firings in 1943 produced a 4.5 Km Circular
Error Probable and with the radio guidance it was 2 km.

It is really quite simple in November 1944 the British reported 82 V2s
in London, 40 in Essex and 16 in Kent, plus others, in March 1945 they
reported 112 V2s in London, 81 in Essex and 12 in Kent.

All up the figures were 517 London, 378 Essex and 64 Kent. Think
the claimed wonder accuracy improvement really happened? And
again, if it did, why was Antwerp still standing?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Another delay was a Heinrich Himmler power play as the system began
showing promise. Dornberger and von Braun were both arrested for what
amounts to sabotage so as to intimidate them into taking V2 development
into Himmlers Schutz Staffel SS weapons program.
Von Braun was arrested in March 1944. Dornberger was a General in
the Army in 1943/44.

So tell us when Dornberger was arrested.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The charge arose out
of relatively innocuous discussions and comments by von Braun and
Dornberger that they were ultimately developing space travel for post
war use rather than developing weapons and was intended to intimidate
them into leaving the Army and joining the SS. The arrests came at a
critical phase of V2 testing.
I see, 1944 and the V2 is still under critical test.

Makes the available earlier idea seem rather wrong.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 could have been available considerably earlier.
No.

Under wartime conditions, with the first test firings done, "unlimited"
resources were made available in early 1943, the V2 campaign started
in September 1944.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The targeting error claimed by Walter Dornberger and the German
guidance experts (including F Mueller who designed the original V2
system) that eventually became US citizens and worked at the Redstone
Arsenal at Huntington was a CEP of 4.5 kilometers or 2.8 miles for the
LEV-3 guidance system. It's a realistic figure that ignores gross
malfunctions.
Ah, the usual way the big errors are removed.

The accuracy test results were around 1/3 the combat results.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
CEP or "Circular Error Probability" is the radius of a circle in
which 50% of all munitions will fall. In the case of a Gausian
distribution (Rayleigh in 2 dimensions) of those falling outside the
CEP radius some 43% will be outside one CEP radius but within two while
7% will be outside two but within 3.. Within the CEP radius there will
be a clustering towards the aim point but it is not by much; the
distribution is almost random.
Probability of weapon falling within <r = 1-exp-1(r2/(1.414*CEP2))
(I'll tabulate these later). If the standard deviation is known
instead of the CEP then the 1.414 factor above is changed to a 2 and
the CEP is replaced by the standard deviation.
However the actual results were slightly less: British counter
intelligence had captured German agents in Britain and turned them. As
the Germans were too afraid of risking Arado 234 Jet reconnaissance
aircraft over Britain so for post strike reconnaissance analysis they
had to rely on their agents.
Except the Ar234s were used for reconnaissance.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Although the repeatability of the V2
LEV-3 guidance system may have been 4.5km there appear to have been
local factors such as gravitation, coreolis effects not fully accounted
for.
Do not forget the high altitude winds for a start. As small error in the
compass to go on with.

So in other words the guidance system, "tuned" to the German
test range, did not take into account the real flight path and at
supersonic speeds, a small error in timing means a big error in
final impact.

When the RAF introduced Oboe they had to check the maps to
make sure of the map accuracy, in effect the exact relationship
of Britain to Europe, given the accuracy of the system. Wonder
if the Germans ever did the same thing? If not welcome to a
systematic error.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The British were selectively feeding the Germans impact points that
correlated with a correct time of impact but a selective impact points
in wrong position for the time of that impact to gradually move the V2
impact point out of London. Compensating for the British deception
brings a CEP of less than 6km not the 17km often mentioned.
Ah I see, the British deceived the Germans.

So the accuracy of the missile as measured by mathematics was
changed because of British deception. You know the British moved
the aiming point but the spread of missiles around the aiming point
was around 17 km, not the 6 km Eunometric prefers.

See the problem here? The aiming point was moved and the accuracy
was measured from the aiming point but Eunometric prefers some
other measurement.

By the way how exactly is the claimed compensation calculated?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
V2
'reliability' eventually achieved 80%-90% at its peak though it
languished as low as 43% at for some time. Many gross V2 misses were
due to guidance system malfunction; for instance a gyroscope
instability or failure that would to produce almost complete loss of
control on one axis.
It is really simple, around 20% of the V2s went missing as far as the
British research is concerned.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It is a matter of philosophy as to whether these
are included in evaluating CEP (many ended up in the sea or
countryside) but because they were so large and there were a
significant number of them they, along with 'double cross' tend to
totally distort the realistically achievable CEP.
Except the whole point about CEP is to be able to filter out the gross
errors by using a 50% mark, so gross errors do not matter as much.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
For comparison; in WWII, a B-17 with the Norden Bomb sight had a 3,300'
(1000m) circular error probability (CEP), which by reason of energy
distribution means to absolutely guarantee a target kill a drop of
9,000 (500lb?) bombs from 1,000 bombers was needed...which put more
than 10,000 airmen at risk.
Ah yes, Eunometric and a failure to understand mathematics.

For a start, assume the above 1,000 metres is correct, do the area of
a circle of radius 1,000 metres versus 4,500 or 6,00 metres, the preferred
V2 accuracies and work out how many V2s would be needed using the
above ideas.

Now note the Norden bomb site of course became less accurate as
height increased, plus the number of bombers in the strike increased
due to the dust and smoke from the first bombs landing.

At 10,000 feet and 3 bomber boxes the circular error was 570 feet
at 29,000 feet and 15+ boxes the error was 1,700 feet. This is the
expected accuracy based on the overall results. Circular error is
the distance from the aiming point to the centre of the bomb pattern.

The figures for the attacks on 10 different target types showed a
maximum circular error of 1,600 feet, when attacking oil installations,
the majority of the results cluster in the 1,000 to 1,100 feet range.

Yes Eunometric has simply tripled the basic US bombing error.

The US figures of course use imperial measurements and the accuracy
in the final 4 months of 1944, percentage of bombs within half a mile
(800 metres) of the aiming point are

Good visibility 64.3%, Poor visibility 34.4%, GH 26%, Micro H 25.7%,
H2X 4 to 5/10 cloud 22.8%, H2X 6 to 7/10 cloud 12.5%, H2X 8 to 9/10
cloud 7.3% and H2X in total overcast 1.2%.

If you use 3 miles, around 4.8 km only the attacks through
unbroken cloud have less than 50% of the bombs within the
3 mile radius.

See the USSBS Bombing Accuracy report.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In Korea, an F-84F had a 1,000' CEP, which
means to absolutely guarantee a target kill a to drop of 1,100 bombs
from 550 fighters put 550 airmen at risk. In SEA, an F-4 had a 400'
CEP, which means to absolutely guarantee a target kill a drop of 176
bombs from 30 fighters put 60 airmen at risk.
Assume these figures have the same problems as above.

The idea is to compare a "guaranteed hit", in other words a
mathematical probability of greater than 1, to the V2 CEP,
rather than V2 "guaranteed to hit"

Anybody see anything about target size?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
In accuracy and collateral damage high altitude bombing was not much
better in accuracy than the V2 and for the B-29 operating at is full
ceiling with 100mph cross winds at different heights it may have been
worse.
Yes folks, the wrong figures are used to achieve the preferred result.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Within a few years missiles with guidance systems based on the V2's
SG-66 (an expeimental replacement for the LEV-3 generally used) but
using the same principles (eg the US Armies Redstone missile of the
1950s that was substnatially built by von Brauns team achieved a CEP
300 yards). These inertially guided missiles using much the same type
of system as the V2 would be exhibiting better accuracy than WW2
bombers and accuracy as good as the bombers of the day. (F-84F CEP 300
yards)
Ah yes, the whole idea is to pretend the V2 could have been built with
the guidance systems of the 1950s.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A Soviet SCUD-A with a crude early V2 style of boost phase only
'inertial' guidance system has a CEP of 3km at 300km. (It was
designed for nuclear use). A slightly latter model SCUD-B using a
refined but similar boost phase fully inertial system has a CEP of 450m
at 300km. (A Modern SCUD-D achieves 50m by adding in a terminal system
based on scene correlation; the SCUD's reputation for inaccuracy
comes from non authentic non Soviet extended range versions).
yes folks, remember the Bf109 was supersonic, just look at the F-101.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Pn(<r) = 1-exp-1(r^2/ (1.414*(CEP)^2))
In the following tables I've chosen 400 missiles as an launch rate
against a target. With production rates of 1500-5500 per month firings
of several times this rate per month were feasible. Imagine
CEP 4.5km, 400 missiles launched this CEP corresponds to the LEV-3
system.
In other words compare this to the B-17s at 10,000 feet in groups of 3
boxes.

By the way after claiming the hits inside the CEP circle would be more
or less random the figures assume they are not, rather they follow those
probability curves of high school mathematics. Think of this as plays
with scientific calculator or spreadsheet.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
r meters probability nos of missiles, nos of
hits
4000 0.428097089 400 171.2388
2000 0.130377882 400 52.15115
1000 0.034321318 400 13.72853
500 0.008693027 400 3.477211
250 0.002180377 400 0.872151
125 0.000545541 400 0.218216
62.5 0.000136413 400 0.054565
31.25 3.4105E-05 400 0.013642
15.625 8.52636E-06 400 0.003411
7.8125 2.1316E-06 400 0.000853
So the idea is to assume a standard probability distribution.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
CEP 2km 400 missiles launched this correspond to the reported accuracy
of the Leitstrahl system.
No this corresponds to Eunometric's preferred belief on the guidance
system.

(snip) figures
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
CEP 1km, 400 missiles launched, this corresponds to an imagined
improved V2 guidance system perhaps the SG-66 that was undergoing
testing with improved gyroscope bearings.
Ah yes, the Germans once again are given something that never
entered production but is assumed to work as well as needed.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A CEP of 1km corresponds to
Norden accuracy when aimed from high altitude.
In short the answer is no, unless high altitude is above 30,000 feet
and in a large bomber formation,

(snip) figures
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
CEP 300m, 400 missiles launched. (CEP of a 1952 redstone missile)
(snip) figures

Just think what the V2 would have looked like in 1952 seems to
be the idea.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As can be seen with a CEP of 4km the V2's ability to destroy a
specific target is not great unless a great many launches (about 1
months total production). It would however be capable of causing great
damage to a large factory, steel works, power station, dock area or oil
refinery and if its CEP could be brought down to less than 1km it would
be quite effective.
Note by the way the CEP for "best" WWII in testing is given as 2
km, but hey, what's another 100% improvement.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Ultimately shear numbers will have the desired
effect. A V1 hit within 300 meters could kill a man standing in the
open and would send someone flying through the air. The crater
photographs I've seen look about 30m in diameter and 30m deep. Truly
massive.
Again if the wonder weapon was that good how come Antwerp at
the range it was from the launchers, with all those V2s fired at it
was still standing?

And by the way, moving earth with the explosion is a great way of
dissipating the energy, instead of destroying the structures nearby.
The V1 had the better blast characteristics, it arrived at ground
level moving much slower.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
With an putative improved CEP of 1km (essentially that of a Norden
operating at high altitude) It becomes quite menacing to specific
targets in small launch salvos.
In other words using the wrong figure for the Norden plus imaginary
figures for the V2 are needed to make the V2 look good.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
On the basis of papers and research
and the calibre of person doing the development I believe this degree
of accuracy would have been achievable by the Germans within one year.
Given how flawed the research is the answer is Eunometric's belief
systems are wrong.

(snip)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A "Leitstrahl" guidance system that used a radio guidance beam was
also in use and apparently improved accuracy by a factor of 5-10
(particularly over short ranges) according to some sources. (in
reality its was somewhat better over short ranges).
Of course it is over shorter distances, after all the problems with
radio beams following the curve of the earth.

Just ignore how London was at the extreme range and how
Antwerp kept discharging more and more cargo while under
close range bombardment of V1s and V2s.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It was kept very
secret due to the possibility that the signals might be detected and be
used to discover the launch sites. It is credited with a CEP 2km by
some sources. Ironically it was never detected and never jamed.
After all a system that came into service in early 1945, used by a
minority of the V2s does not give the allies much chance for
counter measures.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The Soviet SCUD-B achieved a CEP of 450m at 300km using inertial
systems that guided the missile for the fist 60 seconds of flight.
Remember folks, we have gone well beyond WWII.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The
Redstone Arsenal missile (essentially von Brauns team including Fritz
Mueller the inventor of the gyroscopic accelerometer) with an influx of
American engineers) achieved an improvement of accuracy by a factor of
10 over the V2 from 2.8 miles (4.5km) to 270m (300 yards) at
considerably greater ranges.
Of course we are now well into the 1950's.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It might be supposed that the Germans using an electronic beam method
could eventualy have achieved similar accuracies as the Soviets
achieved in the 1950s using an guidence and control system active for
only the first 60 seconds of fligh. (450m at 300km and about 600m at
400km). Such a system was being planed. (I believe the code name may
have been 'Viktoria'.) It would have used the Doppler principle
to provide accurate velocity and range information to the missiles and
tightly controlled beams to maintain the missile on the correct path
free from cross winds during the first 80 seconds of boosted flight.
Yes, Eunometric believes, by the way check out when the RAF V
bombers turned up, and the USAAF jet bombers as well.

Really simple, as far as the V2 is concerned just keep handing it
years of R&D until it achieves the dream results.

Ignore the whole idea is to decide how well it did in WWII, not how
well it could have done with great improvements.
(snip)
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/mobileoperations.html
(webmasters note: It is generally believed that the A4/V2 was not an
effective weapon because it was not accurate enough to hit an exact
target. While pinpoint accuracy was not associated with the V2, it was
much more accurate than generally reported. Not every batterie received
or installed the Leitstrahl-Guide Beam apparatus, which, was crucial to
the greater accuracy of the weapon. In the later stages of the war the
accuracy improved greatly, sometimes to within meters of the target.)
In other words ignore the results of the mass of V2 launches and go
with those that did achieve a close result.

But to what aiming point? The official one, the one the British set
up, Antwerp?

By the way what is the "general reported" accuracy, or is this yet
another attempt to wish away the real results?

By the way when trying to use the Fw190 as the comparison I
pointed out the above web site and Eunometric replied,

"This is a very crummy site incidently."
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
http://www.usafe.af.mil/iraqifree/FAQ's.htm
In WWII, a B-17 with the Norden Bomb Site had a 3,300' circular error
of probability (CEP), which means to absolutely guarantee a target kill
you had to drop 9,000 bombs from 1,000 bombers...which put more than
10,000 airmen at risk. In Korea, an F-84F had a 1,000' CEP, which means
to absolutely guarantee a target kill you had to drop 1,100 bombs from
550 fighters...which put 550 airmen at risk. In SEA, an F-4 had a 400'
CEP, which means to absolutely guarantee a target kill you had to drop
176 bombs from 30 fighters...which put 60 airmen at risk.
This page came up as cannot be found when I went searching.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
http://www.ww2guide.com/bombs.shtml
In the fall of 1944, only seven per cent of all bombs dropped by the
Eighth Air Force hit within 1,000ft of their aim point;
Note by the way we are now down to 1,000 feet, not the 3,300 feet in
a kilometre.

The answer to the above, for September to December 1944 inclusive
is 6.5%, given 35% of the bombing was done using H2X through
100% cloud cover.

The half mile, 800 metres figure, was around 20%.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
even a
fighter-bomber in a 40 degree dive releasing a bomb at 7,000 ft could
have a circular error (CEP) of as much as 1,000 ft.
Even the V2 could have a CEP of many kilometres, just pick the worst
results.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
It took 108 B-17
bombers, crewed by 1,080 airmen, dropping 648 bombs to guarantee a 96
per cent chance of getting just two hits inside a 400 by 500 ft area (a
German power-generation plant.)
So tell us under what conditions, height, weather etc. By the way the
8th basically ignored German power generation plants.

And now go do the same calculation on a V2.

So we are back to the following.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
1 Timing. Could the V2 have been ready earlier; could it have
improved? What would the effect of the weapon being available months
prior to D-day.
Answer not significant to both.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
2 Accuracy. What did it achieve, what was the effect and what was
possible.
Here is where we continually end up in the 1950's rather than the mid
1940's. Anything but compare what the V2 did in WWII versus
what the bombers did.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
3 Cost effectiveness in the light of the above.
No cost effectiveness calculation done.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
4 Accuracy compared to conventional bombing.
The US bombing results are reported incorrectly, the V2 results from
the test range and so on.

A worthless comparison.

(snip) of costs that do not include V2 figures.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2006-04-23 08:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoffrey Sinclair
Peenemunde apparently cost around 4,800,000,000 marks to build
according to one figure. Split this cost between V1 and V2 work.
That is what I get for not double checking my exchange rate
calculation here, try 300,000,000 Marks. I managed to use 40
marks to the dollar, instead of a mark bought 40 cents.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
z***@yahoo.com
2006-04-21 17:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Walter Dornberger, the young Artillery officer along with Werner von
Braun is credited with being the main driving force behind The EMW A4
(i.e. V2) ballistic missile development in Germany during the second
world war.
In 1942 he claimed that at "Reichs Mark" RM40,000 that the V2
rocket was a cheaper way of delivering explosives than a two engine
Luftwaffe bomber that cost RM1,500,000 to build and train the crew for
but lasted an average of only 6 missions over Britain. Post war
analysis suggests that the V2 cost RM120,000 but this was probably
likely to fall to RM50,000 and possibly even RM28,000. This would have
brought the cost down to similar levels to that of the complicated
BMW801 fuel injected engine used in the Fw 190 fighter.
of course he claimed that he was trying to get his project funded, you
should see some of the wild claims different companies make to the US
about stuff they are working on. the osprey is a must have for the
Marine corp according to industry and a few generals so far it has
killed 23 americans and cost 18 billion but really it is worth it trust
us.
look at some of the other projects the German engenners had that they
got funding for, some stuff they knew was years away from actually
getting results.

Peace
Zonker

http://www.2000ah.blogspot.com
BernardZ
2006-04-23 19:36:03 UTC
Permalink
<thanks for a fasinating post beside the other issues that others
raise.>
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post war
analysis suggests that the V2 cost RM120,000 but this was probably
likely to fall to RM50,000 and possibly even RM28,000.
I would like to see the methodology used. It maybe the unit cost without
any R&D costs.

Note if the Germans increase the number of V2 then one would expect that
the unit costs falls as you tend to get lower unit with increased
production.

Also your R&D costs gets reduced per unit because you have more of them.

Whether Germany could have sustained greater production is another
question as the Germans could not get enough explosives to fill the
existing V1s and V2s.

<snip>
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Hitler believed
in the Vril, an intelligent life force that protected the earth.
Despite many claims of Hitler allowing such superstitious nonsense to
interfere with policy, I have yet to see any proven.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
However the actual results were slightly less: British counter
intelligence had captured German agents in Britain and turned them. As
the Germans were too afraid of risking Arado 234 Jet reconnaissance
aircraft over Britain so for post strike reconnaissance analysis they
had to rely on their agents.
In an early period, Germany could and did fly planes over Britain. So
this issue would not be a problem.
e***@yahoo.com.au
2006-04-24 15:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BernardZ
<thanks for a fasinating post beside the other issues that others
raise.>
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post war
analysis suggests that the V2 cost RM120,000 but this was probably
likely to fall to RM50,000 and possibly even RM28,000.
I would like to see the methodology used. It maybe the unit cost without
any R&D costs.
AFAIKT the complete A4 ( aggregate 4 ) program cost 2 milliard Reichs
Marks for about 6000 fired which puts the cost of a V2 at about
330,000RM. Unit costs were about 120,000. For comparison an
equiped 1942 series Ju 88D cost about 130,000. I've seen costs of
RM50,000 for an Me 109 and RM119,000 for a FW190. Clearly that refers
to prices at different stages of development.

Ju 88 costs went from 600,000 in the first year of manufature to
130,000 in 1942 and presumably continued to fall despite more powerfull
engines such as the Jumo 213 and BMW 801 were added.

What was expensive about a V2 compared to a figher or bomber? A
fighter and an engine made of 12 pistons, cyliners and con rods, 24
precision ground valves, a high grade steel supercharger, hydraulics
for the flaps and undercarriage, auto-pilot gyros and servos, direct
fuel injection systems, bomb sights and all sorts of radio
communication, radio navigation, IFF gear then there is seemingly a lot
less in the V2. Sure there is turbomachinary in the pumps but they
are easy to make compared to reciporcating enignes. The British
thoguht that the big 'show stopper' for liquid rocket engines that the
allies apprehended turned out to be rather easy: the pumps had been
developed for fire fighting engines while the tubines for the engine
turned out to propell as well.

Consider that a US 4 engined heavy bomber came in at $200,000 (or about
RM500,00) consider that this also doesn't include development costs or
other total program costs.

Consider that 10% of Luftwaffe aircraft were lost before delivery and
some 40% lost in non combat related incidents. The allied situation
may have been better but when the large humber of V2 launch failures
are considered they need to be compared with non combat losses of
conventional weapons.

Also that the program cost of say the B-24 program went beyond unit
costs as delivered by Ford or the poor record of the B-29 in its firts
year of opperation.
Post by BernardZ
Note if the Germans increase the number of V2 then one would expect that
the unit costs falls as you tend to get lower unit with increased
production.
Precisely. If you've worked in a production environent you can see
this happening. It seems to take about 6 months to a year to get
things working smoothly and everything understood and communicated,
which easily pulls down the costs by 1/3rd to 1/2 becuase of higher
production through better quality, less rework, less wastege and then
another year or two to claw down prices using design and process
changes. The complicated 18 'basket' head combustion chamber of the
V2 which involoved an explensive labyrinth of 18 pairs of plumbing
supplies to the chamber that the simple mixing plate designe that was
proven later in the Wasserfall SAM. The basket head designe had to be
used in order to firm up the production process.
Post by BernardZ
Also your R&D costs gets reduced per unit because you have more of them.
Whether Germany could have sustained greater production is another
question as the Germans could not get enough explosives to fill the
existing V1s and V2s.
Germany clearly couldn't: it had failed to put its synthetic oil
production underground and the 40 or so minature fischer tropsch
dispersed plants added less fuel each than a big California service
station each. It was cut of from Iron ore and the situation was
terminal. It was overwhelmed by the might of US and Soviet production
and supply.

What I'm claiming is that the A4 could have developed into a cost
effective weapons system in the fullness of time as cost came down and
accuracy improved. For this to occur the A4 would need to have been in
service at least 6 months earlier when Germanys inductrial and research
capacities were not yet severely impeded.

What the bottlneck in explosives seems to have been nitrate production.
Speer shifted Nitrate production from explosives to fertiliser in the
final months of the war since he regarded it as lost and thought that
fertiliser in the form of next years crops was more important.

The range of a ballistic projectile is given as:

0.5/9.8 x V^2 x sin(elevation)^2.

As can be seen a 10% reduction in velocity inaccuracy leads to a 19%
improvement in accuracy (from 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81) from that source. A
50% improvement leads to a 75% improvement in accuracy. In terms of
elevation a similar effect is seen azimuth is more linear but the point
is that small improvements in manufacturing scatter leads to large
improvements. The final improvement comes with the introduction of
accelerometers on on multiple axes to eliminate the effects of
atmpsheric variations.

The V2 was never intended to supplant all other forms of bombardment.
There were other areas of endavour: The V1 was having a jet eingine
developed to both simplify launch procedures and increase range to 435
miles. The planed engines were either the disposable BMW P.3307 or the
disposable Porche 109-005 Porche 005. The absence of vibration from
the pulse jet would improve accuracy. There were also guidence systems
being planed. There were anti-radar warhead "ZSG Radischen" and an
infrared anti steel works ZSG "Offen" as well as several others
intended for land as well as sea targets.
to be realeased as glide bombs, or missiles from aircraft. There were
a variety TV based system with much work in improving light sensitivity
and anti-jamming.

I believe there were gudence systems under consideration for rhe V1: a
TV based guidence system using a focused antena link to a mother
aircraft was
Post by BernardZ
<snip>
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Hitler believed
in the Vril, an intelligent life force that protected the earth.
Despite many claims of Hitler allowing such superstitious nonsense to
interfere with policy, I have yet to see any proven.
Agreed; he never seems to have let it get to him.
Post by BernardZ
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
However the actual results were slightly less: British counter
intelligence had captured German agents in Britain and turned them. As
the Germans were too afraid of risking Arado 234 Jet reconnaissance
aircraft over Britain so for post strike reconnaissance analysis they
had to rely on their agents.
In an early period, Germany could and did fly planes over Britain. So
this issue would not be a problem.
Nothing much in 1944 or 1945. Only the Ar 234 was capable and the
first flight by Erich Sommer was an accident; there standing orders not
to overfly enemy territotory and particularluy Britian didn't get
through: Sommer almost got court martialled being spared by Goebells
seeing the propaganda value. Sommer had passed a Mosquito pilot
heading in the opposite direction as Both pilots were unarmed the
pilots just waved.
Geoffrey Sinclair
2006-04-24 18:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by BernardZ
<thanks for a fasinating post beside the other issues that others
raise.>
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post war
analysis suggests that the V2 cost RM120,000 but this was probably
likely to fall to RM50,000 and possibly even RM28,000.
I would like to see the methodology used. It maybe the unit cost without
any R&D costs.
AFAIKT the complete A4 ( aggregate 4 ) program cost 2 milliard Reichs
Marks for about 6000 fired which puts the cost of a V2 at about
330,000RM.
The 6,000 figure appears to be twice the number used in combat, so
and around 1 to 2,000 more than combat plus testing.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Unit costs were about 120,000.
This is now the cost for what sort of V2, fuelled and armed?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
For comparison an
equiped 1942 series Ju 88D cost about 130,000.
Assuming this is the total cost, as opposed to cost less Government
furnished items, in other words it is what Junkers charged the
Government, not what the total cost would be.

Assuming the above figure is correct 2 billion marks buys just about
every Ju88 built.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
I've seen costs of
RM50,000 for an Me 109 and RM119,000 for a FW190. Clearly that refers
to prices at different stages of development.
Again be careful about costs and look at the US prices which appear
to be fly away prices. Not invoice from the assembly plant.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Ju 88 costs went from 600,000 in the first year of manufature to
130,000 in 1942 and presumably continued to fall despite more powerfull
engines such as the Jumo 213 and BMW 801 were added.
Let us start with the facts

Oh yes if you read the reference, table 6 you will note the costs
are maximum and minimum for the year, for 1939/1940 it is maximum
523,385, minimum 210,648 marks. So if you ignore the obvious
high cost in 1939 you are much more able to see the real lowering
of costs. In 1941/42 the Ju88A-4 came it at between 170,605 and
167,129 marks, the tropical version between 173,143 and 159,143
marks. In 1942/43 the Ju88A-4 trop came in at between 141,246
and 139,274 marks.

Try the fact the idea the 500,000 mark price was a maximum and was
probably the first one built, with much of the set up costs factored
into the price.

And generally if you add things like new engines, just developed,
then the cost goes up for a while.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What was expensive about a V2 compared to a figher or bomber?
The massive investment in the 1940's to actually build something
beyond the bleeding edge of technology. Then the cost of launching
enough to obtain a hit on something important. The cost of the
ground organisation. How many men per ton of explosives per day.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
A
fighter and an engine made of 12 pistons, cyliners and con rods, 24
precision ground valves, a high grade steel supercharger, hydraulics
for the flaps and undercarriage, auto-pilot gyros and servos, direct
fuel injection systems, bomb sights and all sorts of radio
communication, radio navigation, IFF gear then there is seemingly a lot
less in the V2.
Then you can note if the Bf109 really did cost 50,000 marks how
comparable the price is to the V2.

After all precision guidance systems cost, as does the electronics
to use radio navigation. And all this is for a single flight. Liquid
oxygen requires proper handling and storage, it tends to freeze
pumps and boil away.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Sure there is turbomachinary in the pumps but they
are easy to make compared to reciporcating enignes. The British
thoguht that the big 'show stopper' for liquid rocket engines that the
allies apprehended turned out to be rather easy: the pumps had been
developed for fire fighting engines while the tubines for the engine
turned out to propell as well.
The interesting thing is the first V2 launches failed because of the
fuel pump problems.

So no, it was not "easy" and pumping water is not the same as
pumping liquid oxygen, just look at what happens to any oil in
the pump.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Consider that a US 4 engined heavy bomber came in at $200,000 (or about
RM500,00) consider that this also doesn't include development costs or
other total program costs.
Of course I have posted the early Spitfire costs and these show how
the R+D and production line set up costs were factored into the prototype
and first set of production aircraft price.

And of course because the aircraft were evolving rather than the jump
being made with the V2 their R+D costs were lower.

Note also US aircraft were more expensive because of higher US
wages and again it is likely the US price is fly away, the German
prices excluding equipment already purchased by the government,
like the cockpit instruments.

Try for example the P-61s the USAAF paid for in 1941 fiscal year (first
flight in 1942) cost $649,584, in 1942 the cost was $245,327.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Consider that 10% of Luftwaffe aircraft were lost before delivery
You mean mainly by allied action and of course in 1944 build quality.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
and
some 40% lost in non combat related incidents.
The Luftwaffe had a rather slack attitude to flight safety.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The allied situation
may have been better but when the large humber of V2 launch failures
are considered they need to be compared with non combat losses of
conventional weapons.
In which case you need to figure out how many of the Luftwaffe
accidents occurred on their first sortie to compare with V2s. A nice
figure would be the average number of sorties per loss.

For example for the 8th air force the average B-17 flew 58.9 missions
dropping 147.2 short tons of bombs before it was lost, the B-24
49.9 missions dropping 149 short tons of bombs.

The V2 flew an average of 1 mission each dropping 1 long ton
of bombs.

Put it another way overall the Lancaster loss rate was around 2.4%,
that still means around half the Lancasters built during WWII were
lost on operations.

So compare like with like.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Also that the program cost of say the B-24 program went beyond unit
costs as delivered by Ford or the poor record of the B-29 in its firts
year of opperation.
And note the number of V2s rejected by combat units as unusable and
the way the V2 had to be used within days of manufacture or it had
to be remanufactured or scrapped.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by BernardZ
Note if the Germans increase the number of V2 then one would expect that
the unit costs falls as you tend to get lower unit with increased
production.
Precisely. If you've worked in a production environent you can see
this happening. It seems to take about 6 months to a year to get
things working smoothly and everything understood and communicated,
which easily pulls down the costs by 1/3rd to 1/2 becuase of higher
production through better quality, less rework, less wastege and then
another year or two to claw down prices using design and process
changes.
The above of course ignores the V2 was an SS project.

It had second priority to killing the workers. Which meant the
quality improvements from a trained experienced work force were
rather limited.

Also of course design changes slow production.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The complicated 18 'basket' head combustion chamber of the
V2 which involoved an explensive labyrinth of 18 pairs of plumbing
supplies to the chamber that the simple mixing plate designe that was
proven later in the Wasserfall SAM. The basket head designe had to be
used in order to firm up the production process.
Note how much smaller the Wasserfall was and therefore a different
fuel system could be used, no pumps, but pressurised fuel tanks, also
note the Wasserfall had to be able to stay in storage for weeks and
then be launched "immediately". Rather different set of circumstances.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by BernardZ
Also your R&D costs gets reduced per unit because you have more of them.
Whether Germany could have sustained greater production is another
question as the Germans could not get enough explosives to fill the
existing V1s and V2s.
Germany clearly couldn't: it had failed to put its synthetic oil
production underground and the 40 or so minature fischer tropsch
dispersed plants added less fuel each than a big California service
station each. It was cut of from Iron ore and the situation was
terminal. It was overwhelmed by the might of US and Soviet production
and supply.
The FT plants were quite big, in 1943 they output 484,000 tons of fuel.

I presume rathe than small FT plants what is being referred to here are
the numerous benzol plants using the by products of coking plants.
They output around 657,000 tons of fuel in 1943.

The above out of 7,508,000 tons of fuel the USSBS says the Germans
produced in 1943. By the way the USSBS says the avgas came from
hydrogenation (1,745,000 tonnes in 1943), benzol (35,000 tons) and
crude oil refining (4,000 tons) in 1943.

I really like the way Germany keeps being overwhelmed by numbers
as opposed by numbers and better strategy and often better tactics.
Not to mention the numbers came from more efficient use of resources.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What I'm claiming is that the A4 could have developed into a cost
effective weapons system in the fullness of time as cost came down and
accuracy improved. For this to occur the A4 would need to have been in
service at least 6 months earlier when Germanys inductrial and research
capacities were not yet severely impeded.
Since the wonder guidance systems were made in the early 1950s and
deployed in mid to late 1950's substitute 6 months for 6 years in the
above claim.

All this to defend a weapon that had around half to two thirds the
range of the Ar234 which carried twice the bomb load. Even the
Me262 Jabo had better range and accuracy with the same payload.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
What the bottlneck in explosives seems to have been nitrate production.
Speer shifted Nitrate production from explosives to fertiliser in the
final months of the war since he regarded it as lost and thought that
fertiliser in the form of next years crops was more important.
Try again, the German fertilizer production went to zero because
ammunition was the priority.

The reason for the decline in ammunition was the synthetic oil
plants were also chemical plants, producing important chemicals.

USSBS general summary report ETO,

"Air Attacks on Chemicals, Rubber, and Explosives

Neither the German chemical industry nor any vital segment of it
was selected by the Allied air forces for deliberate concentrated
attack. As far as Oil Division personnel could ascertain, no single
attack was dispatched against synthetic nitrogen and methanol,
despite the readily perceptible military consequences. Yet both
of these vital chemicals were knocked out as a bonus - fortuitous
perhaps and until the end of the war unrecognized - resulting
from the vigorous campaign against oil (Figure 4). When two
plants (Leuna and Ludwigshafen) were shut down by air attacks
dispatched against oil targets, Germany was deprived of 63
percent of her synthetic nitrogen, 40 percent of her synthetic
methanol and 65 percent of her synthetic rubber. Damage to
five additional oil plants increased the loss in synthetic nitrogen
to 91 percent, in synthetic methanol to 86 percent. When the
nitrogen supply began to vanish, agriculture was the first to
feel the pinch. No synthetic nitrogen was available for fertilizer
after September, 1944, and the anticipated drop in the 1945
harvest from this cause alone was estimated at 22 percent."
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
0.5/9.8 x V^2 x sin(elevation)^2.
Except the V2 was not a ballistic projectile until the engine shut off.
It launched vertically, then at around 30,000 feet turned onto its
course.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
As can be seen a 10% reduction in velocity inaccuracy leads to a 19%
improvement in accuracy (from 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81) from that source. A
50% improvement leads to a 75% improvement in accuracy. In terms of
elevation a similar effect is seen azimuth is more linear but the point
is that small improvements in manufacturing scatter leads to large
improvements. The final improvement comes with the introduction of
accelerometers on on multiple axes to eliminate the effects of
atmpsheric variations.
This all sounds very nice, except the V2 was very much supersonic
so a 10% improvement is a rather large number and it would be strange
indeed if the V2 speed instrumentation was really that inaccurate. It
was doing about mach 3 to mach 4 at maximum height.

And the final improvement is inertial navigation, which is post WWII,
again. For example Grumman talks about it being available for aircraft
in 1958. Note in the 1990's airliners carried multiple inertial navigation
systems for redundancy and because of their errors.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The V2 was never intended to supplant all other forms of bombardment.
This is interesting given the claims about how wonderful the V2
was and would be.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
There were other areas of endavour: The V1 was having a jet eingine
developed to both simplify launch procedures and increase range to 435
miles. The planed engines were either the disposable BMW P.3307 or the
disposable Porche 109-005 Porche 005.
As per usual these are engines that never made it, but since there is
no evidence about how they would have worked just assume they
would work as required.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
The absence of vibration from
the pulse jet would improve accuracy. There were also guidence systems
being planed. There were anti-radar warhead "ZSG Radischen" and an
infrared anti steel works ZSG "Offen" as well as several others
intended for land as well as sea targets.
What we have here is another wish list passed off as viable.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
to be realeased as glide bombs, or missiles from aircraft. There were
a variety TV based system with much work in improving light sensitivity
and anti-jamming.
Again wish list time.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
I believe there were gudence systems under consideration for rhe V1: a
TV based guidence system using a focused antena link to a mother
aircraft was
All that means is the mother aircraft has to hang around to guide the
V1. Of course the TV idea is another wish list. The Hs293D trials in
early 1944 showed things like the signal only propagated over 4 km.
And of course 10,000 feet is around 3 km.

Starts to become rather expensive to mount all those electronics on
board the expendable missile. The Hs293D TV option required the
fuselage lengthened around 2 feet 3 inches (or about 20%) and
a near 2 foot antenna added to the rear of the missile.
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by BernardZ
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Hitler believed
in the Vril, an intelligent life force that protected the earth.
Despite many claims of Hitler allowing such superstitious nonsense to
interfere with policy, I have yet to see any proven.
Agreed; he never seems to have let it get to him.
Oh, yet the claim was it was a factor in the 1939 decision about what
to do about the V2. Or was it thrown is an irrelevant fact?
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
Post by BernardZ
Post by e***@yahoo.com.au
However the actual results were slightly less: British counter
intelligence had captured German agents in Britain and turned them. As
the Germans were too afraid of risking Arado 234 Jet reconnaissance
aircraft over Britain so for post strike reconnaissance analysis they
had to rely on their agents.
In an early period, Germany could and did fly planes over Britain. So
this issue would not be a problem.
Nothing much in 1944 or 1945. Only the Ar 234 was capable and the
first flight by Erich Sommer was an accident; there standing orders not
to overfly enemy territotory and particularluy Britian didn't get
through: Sommer almost got court martialled being spared by Goebells
seeing the propaganda value. Sommer had passed a Mosquito pilot
heading in the opposite direction as Both pilots were unarmed the
pilots just waved.
Of course the reality is the Luftwaffe did begin using A234s to fly over
Britain but there were not that many in service and the demand for
photographs of other locations was a factor as well. Not to mention
what the Ar234 actually had the range to fly over.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
w***@mindspring.com
2006-04-25 18:15:08 UTC
Permalink
I have read (can't remember where) that the 'opportunity cost' of each
V2 was 3 fighters. Hitler and Germany got caught in the dichotomy
between feasible and practicable. Not that the Allies didn't make the
same mistakes - the continued production of the P40, the Alaska class
BCs and the Fisher XP75 spring to mind - but the USA could afford those
mistakes and Germany could not.
Walt BJ

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