how bad were panzerfaust hits?

[s]

the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to AT mines.i read it
is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to penetrate the armor. i
took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with smoke,
but i am interested in hearing from anyone who has read firsthand
accounts of how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

thanks
--

[g***@ankerstein.org]

Post by s
how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

Very. I have no "first hand" information from WWII,
but if you will accept the tests at Fort Knox, KY,
then I can tell you that they will "kill" a Sherman
or a T-34.

GFH
--

[a425couple]

Post by s
the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to
AT mines.i read it is a shaped charge

I know nothing specific about the panzerfaust round,
but I do know about shaped charges and will try
my humble meger best to describe them in words
(although some quick drawings could do better!)

Post by s
is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to
penetrate the armor.

The shaped charge was a 'unique' way to very effectively
defeat armor. I will try to describe the projectile / bullet.
The front of the 'bullet' is naturally cone shaped. Back
to back with that cone, picture another cone. At the tip
of the first cone is a detenator, and the rest of both cones
are basicly empty. Packed 'around' and behind the second
cone is your explosive. When the detonator sets off the
explosive, the very hot and high energy waves 'collide'
in centerline and propel forward joined continously by more
hot energy coming from further forward (but slightly further
away from centerline of cone). This very hot and high
energy 'jet' of energy is small in cross section but melts
through armor.

Post by s
i took this as meaning localised
damage and filling the tank with smoke,

This jet of energy melts through the armor, burning a
relatively small hole (size of pencil on up to finger)
but burns through plate, and when emerging spews
this melted armor 'steel' particles throughout the inside
of tank (etc.) This will in most cases detonate the tanks
own ammo, kill crew, and/or ignite fuel.

So, kinda yeah, the actual damage by the shaped charge
itself is somewhat limited and "localized", but the damage
it causes is frequently catastrophic.
Because the filling of the tank is not "smoke" but very
very hot melted steel.

So when you demilitarize a tank, haul it out to an
impact area at a range, and hit it with AP, not real
satisfying. If you are able (somehow) to visit it, just
small holes. But in real combat, when tank has munitions
etc., the hit is frequently very satisfying.
Because their own 30-50 tank shells exploding inside
turret can be a decent (but quick) 4th of July show.
Hey! fire one round, get 50 rounds exploding in
target, pretty nice force multiplyer!

Post by s
but i am interested in hearing from anyone who has read firsthand
accounts of how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

Well, got to play with all the toys that Unkle Sam gives her
Misguided Children, and getting near the end of the nine months
of play (training) we got to request our occupational specalties.
I did not want to be in big metal target that certainly attracks
attention of everyone with RPGs on up etc.
(Although recall it was Andrew Clark who gave that statisticly
the US tank crews in Europe in WWII, were much safer than
the grunts).


--

[Michael Emrys]

i took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with smoke...

In addition to smoke, it tends to spray high speed droplets of molten metal.
These can cause casualties to any crewmen they hit. They also can ignite any
inflammable materials, including cloth, rubber, synthetics, paint, oil,
hydraulic fluid, etc. Then there is the possible stunning effect of the
explosion itself.

Michael
--

[Lazimodo]

| the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to AT mines.i
read it
| is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to penetrate the
armor. i
| took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with
smoke,
| but i am interested in hearing from anyone who has read
firsthand
| accounts of how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

There are some factual 3'rd person accounts of the affects of the
"Panzer-Fist" in the official regimental history of the North
Nova Scotia Highland Regiment of Canada, while engaging the
Hitlerjugendcorps (and either one of the 12'th or 22'nd SS Panzer
Divisions, if memory serves), at Carpaquet Village, Villers
Bocage, Carpaquet Airfield, Caen and/or Hell's Corner, from D-Day
+1 to +13. The North Novas were a heavy machine gun regiment that
attacked the airport fighting mounted on Bren Carriers supported
by British and Canadian Shermans in light infantry formations.

The tanks filled with smoke and often popped and burned while
their ordinance cooked off. Many did not burn or explode and were
recovered and repaired, however. Tank crews were injured but
often escaped after a hit from a fist but not from an 88MM or a
round from the Tigers. With the 88MM hit they usually all were
incapacitated and burned.

It was capable of penetrating 200 mm of armour but was limited in
that it had to be fired from a clear position due to its
substantial back burn and had a limited range of 150 feet. The
North Novas were badly attrited by the Panzer tanks and the field
artillery and fought dismounted for an additional 10 days with
all of their Shermans and Bren guns out of action. They were
eventually relieved by the heavy guns of the HMS Belfast when
they were able to reassemble a radio and call in arty from
offshore. An amazing tale really.

It was my impression when I read it that the Panzer Fist was
tactically surmountable and more of a nuisance while the Tiger
tanks were insurmountable. Thankfully they all ran out of fuel.
--

[Bill Shatzer]

Post by s
the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to AT mines.

AT mines are not intended to penetrate the armor - rather they
are designed to blow a track or, perhaps, disable or blow off a
bogie wheel. AT mines are designed to disable and immobilize,
but generally don't kill armored vehicles.

Post by s
i read it
is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to penetrate the armor.

Correct.

Post by s
i
took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with smoke,

No, not smoke. Rather a white-hot stream of gases with hot blobs of melted
armor and chunks of spawled armor richocheting around the interior
compartments.

Secondary explosions from igniting the ammunition and/or fuel supply
are likely as well.

Post by s
but i am interested in hearing from anyone who has read firsthand
accounts of how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

Certainly deadly enough if penetration is obtained in the crew compartment
or in the ammunition or fuel storage areas. An engine compartment
penetration likely leaves the crew alive but is an effective
mission kill on the vehicle.

Of course, getting close enough with a Panzerfaust to obtain a hit
was no mean task and not for the faint of heart.

Cheers,
--

"Cave ab homine unius libri"
--

[Don Phillipson]

Post by s
the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to AT mines.i read it
is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to penetrate the armor. i
took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with smoke,

The Panzerfaust is usually compared not with a mine
but with the US bazooka or British PIAT i.e.similar
weapons with similar purposes. Parameters include
effective range, accuracy, and how much armour
plate the missile can penetrate.

The Panzerfaust is usually rated the most
powerful of these AT weapons because it
could penetrate thicker armour than the others.
The shaped charge works not by "plasma effect"
but by converting explosive energy to spray
droplets of melted armour steel throughout
the interior of a tank, usually killing or wounding
all the crew.

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
--

[Briarroot]

Post by s
the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to AT mines.i read it
is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to penetrate the armor. i
took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with smoke,
but i am interested in hearing from anyone who has read firsthand
accounts of how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

If the "plasma effect" penetrated the armor, which it was designed to do
under ideal conditions, it would spray molten metal around the interior
of the tank. I'm sure you can imagine the detrimental effects this
would have on the crew, stored ammunition and fuel.
--

[Richard Macdonald]

Post by Briarroot

Post by s
the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to AT mines.i read it
is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to penetrate the armor. i
took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with smoke,
but i am interested in hearing from anyone who has read firsthand
accounts of how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

If the "plasma effect" penetrated the armor, which it was designed to do
under ideal conditions, it would spray molten metal around the interior
of the tank. I'm sure you can imagine the detrimental effects this
would have on the crew, stored ammunition and fuel.

Not really plasma, just the Monroe Principle, here are a few
interesting links on shaped charges and how they work:

http://www.llnl.gov/str/Baum.html

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust1.htm

http://www.logwell.com/tech/shot/lined_shaped_charges.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/shaped-charge

Loading Image...

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/P/Pa/Panzerfaust.htm
--

[Briarroot]

Post by Richard Macdonald

Post by Briarroot

Post by s
the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to AT mines.i read it
is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to penetrate the armor. i
took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with smoke,
but i am interested in hearing from anyone who has read firsthand
accounts of how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

If the "plasma effect" penetrated the armor, which it was designed to do
under ideal conditions, it would spray molten metal around the interior
of the tank. I'm sure you can imagine the detrimental effects this
would have on the crew, stored ammunition and fuel.

Not really plasma, just the Monroe Principle, here are a few

It was the OP's term which is why I put it in quotes. I usually call it
a high-pressure, super-heated, momentary blow-torch!

;-)
--

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by s
the panzerfaust round appears so small compared to AT mines.i read it
is a shaped charge and uses the plasma effect to penetrate the armor. i
took this as meaning localised damage and filling the tank with smoke,
but i am interested in hearing from anyone who has read firsthand
accounts of how deadly the effects of the weapon was.

The Panzerfaust (and Panzerschreck, and bazooka, and PIAT,
and HEAT shells for for AT cannon) work by shaped-charge
effects. Inside the round is a hollow cone of HE, with
the base forward. When the round hits a target, the
explosive is detonated. The cone shape focuses the force
of the explosive into a very narrow jet going forward
along the axis of the cone. In some HEAT rounds, the
inside of the cone is lined with copper, which melts and
forms a dense hot jet with immense velocity and force.

The focussed blast of the shaped charge can tear right
through armor plate, even very thick plates of 200mm
or more. Then the explosive blast, molten metal, hot
gases, and so on, fill the interior of the target.

The power of this technique was shown in a photographic
illustration in the book _German Tank and Antitank in
World War II_ by Hoffschmidt and Tantum. A German AT
grenade of this hollow charge type was set against the
edge of a 180mm thick steel plate, and detonated. The
result was a hole 230mm deep!

However, it should be noted that to have such an effect,
the hollow-charge munition must be touching against the
target and square on to the target's side. Otherwise the
blast leaks off to one side or disperses before it hits
the plate. One modern defense against hollow-charge
weapons is 'reactive armor'. Many modern tanks have thin
plates of explosive applied to their outsides. These
plates detonate when a hollow-charge projectile hits,
and disrupt its positioning.

Another trick is 'spaced armor' - a light outer plate
to trigger the hollow-charge munition, a heavy inner
plate to resist it (and any ballistic AP shot), with
a gap between for the blast to disperse into.

Also note that a hollow-charge round relies entirely on
its explosive load to damage the target - its velocity
is irrelevant. The PIAT was launched by a spring. There
were even AT grenades with magnets, which were to be
tossed at tanks.

[Bob Hart]

"Rich Rostrom" wrote in message >

<snip large amounts that I agree with>

" The PIAT was launched by a spring. "

I still find it incredible that this old wives tale still persists. The Piat
was as much launched by a spring as a rifle bullet was propelled down the
barrel of a rifle by a spring. Yes, a spring is involved in the firing
sequence, just as it is with the firing pin of the rifle. NO, it did not
provide the main motive power of the PIAT round.
The PIAT was a spigot mortar. That means the round had a hollow tube to the
rear with at the end of it, up near the warhead end, a propelling charge,
just like a mortar has at the bottom of the round. Now instead of dropping a
PIAT round down a tube to hit a fixed firing pin, like a normal mortar
does,you slid the Piat round OVER a smaller tube (the spigot) which
contained the firing pin, compressed around a spring. The firing pin
launched itself up the inside of the hollow tube and ignited the propelling
charge. The Piat round then was forced off the end of the tube by the gases
building up inside its own tail.
The same principles were used by the Spigot mortar of the Churchill AVRE and
by the hedgehog spigot mortars on RN escort vessels. The only difference was
the Hedgehogs were ignited by electrical means and the PIAT by mechanical
means - the spring.

Hope this helps bust another myth!
regards
Bob

--

[David Thornley]

Post by Bob Hart
"Rich Rostrom" wrote in message >
<snip large amounts that I agree with>
" The PIAT was launched by a spring. "
I still find it incredible that this old wives tale still persists.

I think I know why: everything I read about actually using the PIAT
talks about the spring, and how hard it was to set it if it was ever
unset after a firing (or, in the case of George MacDonald Fraser's
"Quartered Safe Out Here", to show a certain officer as able to
grasp complicated technical issues at a glance). Only the books
that actually say how things worked refer to it as a spigot mortar.

In contrast, the US equivalent was a rocket and launcher ("bazooka"),
and the fact that it was a rocket was very important in the shape of
the launcher and the backblast.

Similarly, how many people are correct and certain about how the
Panzerfaust propelled its hollow charge?

--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
***@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
--

[Lazimodo]

| Similarly, how many people are correct and certain about how
the
| Panzerfaust propelled its hollow charge?

It was propelled by a fin stabilized hollow wooden tube filled
with propellant that remained attached to the warhead. The
propellant consisted of 54g (1.9 oz.) of black powder, the metal
launch tube had a length of 80cm (31.5 in.) and a diameter of
3.3cm (1.3 in.) (early models 2.8cm(1.1in.)). The folded
stabilizing fins were made of 0.25mm (0.01 in.) thick metal. It
was susceptible to moisture and humidity.

German Infantry deploying Panzer Fists in the presence of
mechanized units in western Europe had a very short life
expectancy. Most (or many) grenadier's, would not see the impact
of their 30m shot as they would be suppressed by allied soldiers
of foot, immediately, for an example, the 12'th SS-Panzer
Division "Hitlerjugend" prior to Failaise.

The hardened SS were trained to wait in ambush and fist
supporting armour whilst snipers took out the follow on officers
or second wave of infantry. The SS later used a desperate tactic
whereby a couple of fists and a section gunner would be laying
down, out of site, and then and have six or a dozen soldiers
pretend to surrender to an allied tank or bren gun. On signal the
surrendering soldiers would hit the deck and the fists and the
gunner would open up over their heads. Allied units that survived
that deke, would take no prisoners thereafter.

The 'fists' seemed to have fared better, tactically, against the
Russians, in terms of survivability of the soldat du Germany,
however, the T-34 had sloped armour and would be less vulnerable
to a marginal hit.

Cheers,
LaZ
--

[Jim Lillie]

The Guns of War by George Blackburn

Blackburn was a FOO- forward observation officer for the Canadian
field artillery. For months he has been driving into combat in a low
bren gun carrier. This attack he had been placed in a tank. But for
vision he cannot just sit down inside, but must stand with his head and
shoulders out of the turret. This elevated position seems very
attractive to 88 gunners and .............................

******************************

You've seen what the "hollow charge" of a Piat or Panzerfaust bomb
can do to a tank and its crew.
Early in Normandy you'd peered inside burned-out tanks,and been
shocked by the charred remains of the crew still sitting there in
position, reduced to skinny black cinders, their white teeth showing in
the grin of death, though the only visible damage to the tank had been a
tiny hole on the outside, leading to a funnel-shaped hole on the inside.
However, those concave brassiere-like depressions represented, you
were told, the amount of steel that had been instantly turned into
white-hot, molten pellets and been sent careening around inside the
turret killing all the occupants and setting the tank on fire.*

*The Panzerfaust was a hand-held, one-shot, throwaway German antitank
weapon, weighing only 11 pounds, capable of piercing 80 mm of armour at
up to 80 metres.

***************************

Jim Lillie
--