Discussion:
Tri-colour panel on RAF a/c!
(too old to reply)
Robert Sveinson
2005-07-22 15:54:49 UTC
Permalink
does any one know the origin of the red, white, and blue panel
displayed on the tails of RAF and commonwealth a/c during
WWII?

Robert
--
n***@hotmail.com
2005-07-22 20:39:43 UTC
Permalink
WWI.

Narr
--
Bill Shatzer
2005-07-22 20:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sveinson
does any one know the origin of the red, white, and blue panel
displayed on the tails of RAF and commonwealth a/c during
WWII?
It obviously had its origins in the rudder stripe markings which
were ubiquitous identification markings on the aircraft used by
the allied powers during World War One.

The vertical stripe markings seem to have migrated from the rudder
to the vertical stabilizer sometime in the late '30s and then been
reduced in size and dimensions as the need for a more camouflaged
and less visiable appearance became recognized during the early
months of WW2.

Cheers and all,


--
Don Phillipson
2005-07-22 20:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sveinson
does any one know the origin of the red, white, and blue panel
displayed on the tails of RAF and commonwealth a/c during
WWII?
It dates from the WW1 period. Abundant photos in P. Lewis's
The British Fighter since 1912 (1965) suggest the tailfin flash
was universal in the 1920s and sometimes larger (the flash
covering the whole rudder surface, with squadron markings on
the fixed part of the tail fin), tended to go out of use in the 1930s,
but was during WW2 standard on all RAF service aircraft.
It is notably absent in most or all photos of prototypes
(company aircraft, not yet service aircraft.)

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
--
Robert Sveinson
2005-07-22 23:53:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by Robert Sveinson
does any one know the origin of the red, white, and blue panel
displayed on the tails of RAF and commonwealth a/c during
WWII?
It dates from the WW1 period. Abundant photos in P. Lewis's
The British Fighter since 1912 (1965) suggest the tailfin flash
was universal in the 1920s and sometimes larger (the flash
covering the whole rudder surface, with squadron markings on
the fixed part of the tail fin), tended to go out of use in the 1930s,
but was during WW2 standard on all RAF service aircraft.
It is notably absent in most or all photos of prototypes
(company aircraft, not yet service aircraft.)
I just saw a film clip of the Gloster Whittle and it had the roundel, the
circle with the "P" and the tri-colour on the vertical stabilizer!

And thanks for the explanation!
Post by Don Phillipson
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
--
--
weasel
2005-07-25 23:36:47 UTC
Permalink
At the outbreak of WW-II, RAF RN a/c/did NOT have tail stripes.
When RAF units moved to the Continent (i.e. France), the French
regarded the rudder stripes on their a/c as an important recognition
feature, especially from the rear (where somebody might be pondering
shooting at you).

The RAF agreed to stripe their rudders, too, but reversed the order
from the French (which was based on their flag) to be red -white-blue
(fwd-to-aft, which is the opposite of the WW-I and 1920s British
stripes; in 1930 the r-w-b order was promulgated, but the stripes were
dropped in 1934). [all this according to my ancient "Aircraft
Camolflauge and Markings," Bruce Robertson, harleyford, 1956]

By some mysterious bureaucratic process, by June 1940 the stripes
migrated fwd to the fixed portion of the fin, and were on all a/c, not
just those in France. By December, the "fin flash" was a standard 24
inches wide by 27 inches high.

Of course, by this time the French were, either neutral, hostile, or
fighting under British colors, so it is a bit of a mystery to me why
they did it at all!

Cheers,
Wes
--
Bill Shatzer
2005-07-26 16:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by weasel
At the outbreak of WW-II, RAF RN a/c/did NOT have tail stripes.
When RAF units moved to the Continent (i.e. France), the French
regarded the rudder stripes on their a/c as an important recognition
feature, especially from the rear (where somebody might be pondering
shooting at you).
The RAF agreed to stripe their rudders, too, but reversed the order
from the French (which was based on their flag) to be red -white-blue
(fwd-to-aft, which is the opposite of the WW-I and 1920s British
stripes; in 1930 the r-w-b order was promulgated, but the stripes were
dropped in 1934). [all this according to my ancient "Aircraft
Camolflauge and Markings," Bruce Robertson, harleyford, 1956]
By some mysterious bureaucratic process, by June 1940 the stripes
migrated fwd to the fixed portion of the fin, and were on all a/c, not
just those in France.
'Cording to my references, the date was May 1, 1940 by Signal X.485
which not only added the fin flash to the fins of all a/c but also
made several other changes in the British national markings including
the addition of the yellow surround to the fuselage roundel.
Post by weasel
By December, the "fin flash" was a standard 24
inches wide by 27 inches high.
Again, my references say the fin flash was standardized at 27"x24"
in August, 1940 - although obviously some time elapsed between the
directive for the standardized fin flash and when it was actually
implimented on all aircraft. Presumably in August, 1940, at the height
of the Battle of Britain, the squadron ground crews had more important
tasks to attend to than repainting tail markings.
Post by weasel
Of course, by this time the French were, either neutral, hostile, or
fighting under British colors, so it is a bit of a mystery to me why
they did it at all!
Well, as noted, the original order to display the fin flashes went
out some considerable time before the fall of France. But presumably
they were considered a useful identification marking - all the major
combatants of that era save only the Soviets, the Finns, and the Japanese
used some form of fin/rudder marking as a aircraft indentification marking
although the US dropped its rudder stripes rather early on.

Cheers,

--

Don Phillipson
2005-07-24 21:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sveinson
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by Robert Sveinson
the red, white, and blue panel
. . . on the tails of RAF and commonwealth a/c during WWII?
. . .
but was during WW2 standard on all RAF service aircraft.
It is notably absent in most or all photos of prototypes
(company aircraft, not yet service aircraft.)
I just saw a film clip of the Gloster Whittle and it had the roundel, the
circle with the "P" and the tri-colour on the vertical stabilizer!
The Gloster E.28/39 prototype W4041 may have been reckoned
(unusually) a service aircraft from the beginning. Its
first flight (15 May 1941) was at RAF Cranwell in
Lincolnshire, not the Gloster company's HQ in SW
England. The first Gloster Meteor DG206 also first
flew at Cranwell (5 March 1943) although later flights
were from Gloster's own airfield. (All data from P.Lewis.)

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
--
Loading...